 I hope yesterday in your AS-12 lot of your queries must have been resolved because in government grants, because the major confusion was always related to the grants, how the grants should be treated, etc., so I hope Arnold must have clarified a lot of your points. If you ask me this session, which I am taking it today, should be the last one, because it's like a summary of all these sessions, because here we are discussing the first step, step number 2, step number 3, step number 4, when you go back and you discuss with your seniors that yes, we have realized this, these are the good effects, these are the bad effects, pros and cons, and this is the first step we should take it to implement the system in our organization, but as I was asked to take this session, so I am taking it right now, and I have tried to cover up everything which is possible in the last 2 or 3 days discussion, and I am telling you, it just, I have prepared for my mind. All of you are most welcome to please add or delete something to the slide. This is a very, very different, no technical here, no theoretical here, it's just a practical ground reality from my experience. If you start preparing the system, what is the first step, step 2, step 3, and if you ask me the title which has been given in your workshop schedule, from cash to accrual, I have changed it, if you see, because when I was going through the annual report, I think accrual accounting, most of you are doing it. You already are charging depreciation, you are already putting the fee receivable entry, you are already charging the interest deposit entry, accrual entry, so accrual is already there, at least in most of the organization is there. I agree, there can be some organizations in which it is not, that is the reason I have changed from cash to accrual implementation of accounting standards here, because if I say AS, automatically as per AS 1, accrual accounting gets mandatory, so in a way, that cash to accrual is covered in it. So if you ask me, I will be dealing with these are the simple, simple four points, nothing else. And I will be doing very, very slow, it's not huge presentation and I am telling you, not even a single point you will find any of the book, it's all from the mind, from the experience, because logically, at present, in the last two, three days when we were discussing, there were a lot of discussions sir, if we implement this and the first problem which will arise is statutory auditor. They still don't agree about the new format. Yesterday I was going through the detail about the new format. Frankly speaking, there is no change in the new format. It just, they have given it more segmental reporting in a way. They have given unrestricted separately. So it's not a major change. They have given a different head of depreciation. They are asking you to prepare schedules for everything. So in a way, whatever you are preparing it exactly, it's the same. And I am not sure whether you guys have the new format prepared by ICI as a sample format or not. How many of you have that? ICI has made a sample format in Excel. How many of you don't have it? I will be uploading even that format also to the site. When we had the first workshop in Delhi, as you remember, ICI has prepared a full training material that Mr. Shyam was referring to it. Along with that format ICI has also prepared one Excel sheet of a sample format. There is also one Word file in which they have compared your old format with a new format. If you don't have it, take it from me. Take it from sir. That will really help you. Because today's session may last for one hour, for two hours, but it is exactly related to in the next two or three years, I should say. I am not talking about one year because Prangli speaking 13, 14 has gone. In a way it has gone. So we are looking at it, let's suppose in two, three years if I have to implement it, how do I implement it? First, of course, there will be a challenge is pre-implementation, pre-means before implementation. Logically, when we were discussing in the last two days, first was stature-euter, second point was some already ground reality problems. How to deal with this transaction? How to deal with the CPWD approval? How to deal with the grants? How to deal with the temporary structures? How to pass the entries for some transactions? It means these are the issues which you face on day-to-day basis in the real life. Logically, we have to find a solution for that. Because this session has only one purpose. There is no theoretical, there is no AS in it. If I have to start, then what solutions do I have to take out? After that, of course, first we will identify those challenges. And then we all together will try to find out the solutions. Maybe I don't have that much knowledge because you guys are working in the ground reality. Bakshi sir is here. So at least it's a good platform for us whereby we can convey through this presentation to him, these are the points which you should keep it in mind before implementation. And this presentation will give it to him and now he has to take it forward to the ministry to find out the solutions. And I have always remember one thing, generally in our CA profession it is said, CA clear karna is tough, but after becoming a CA, your actual challenge starts. Because before you are not CA, at least you can ask as number of doubts. But once you become a CA and still if you say what is the entry of this transaction, then logically your boss will say, sorry, you are not a good CA. Same here, you can ask as number of things before implementation. But once the system gets implemented, then I am telling you the expectation of your management of ministry or statured auditor will be at this level. So as like a student you can ask as number of things in the next 2 years, 3 years. But once the system is implemented, then you cannot say, sorry, it's a loophole, it's not here. Today it's time, whatever you want to put it, do it. It's an open Pandora box. I'm going to say open Pandora box. Then logically what we achieve if we implement this? Only these 4 points, nothing else. First I'll talk about challenges. I have divided into, in this. Correct me when I'm wrong. It's just from my experience I've prepared it. These are the, do you expect that this reform can be done only by MHRD? Only by ICI or only by you guys? Do you need a joint effort or not? Yes or no? Because in today's, I will not speak. I want the input from you guys because lot of senior people are here and you can tell me. It means we need a coordinated effort, agreed or no? Everyone, right? From MHRD we are looking at 2 expectations, one at the ministry level, one at the top level. And one we are looking at the institutional level from the organization perspective. MHRD or each organization's level. Agreed? If I talk about the first part, first thing they will have to at least get C and A G on the board. Board in a sense at least on one line. Otherwise I know I have been a part of accounting also. I have been a part of auditor also. So I know being an accountant is always a tough task. Being an auditor is in a way easy because you are reviewing the work. Reviewer is always at a better position. So until a common platform does not come, it stays in the mind of a accountant. The money we were accounting, I was always under one fear. I don't know what happens. If auditor comes, whether he will take out one comment, two comments, three comments, maybe ten comments. It's always there. So first thing it is not from your side, not from ICI side, this is from the MHRD side. First point do you agree or not? In today I want yes or no? Everyone? Right. So that's a first task. And we will also try to set a timeline for each. If the timeline is set, automatically a responsibility comes. The timeline will be for you, it will be for sir. If I am representing ICI, it will be for us. Second, this I will discuss in detail. This is very, very important telling you. Because for schools, colleges, universities at each level there are different problems. Someone has a problem of transactions, someone has a problem of depreciation, someone has a problem of management approval, someone has a software issue in all these things. There should always be one ready document. Generally we call it CGD, comprehensive guidance document which can provide you step one, step two, step three, step four, step five. If I have a problem, I can immediately refer it. At present we refer GFR. Isn't it? It means operational manual should be in line with GFR as per the new format. This document has to be in place. Until this document comes, each one of us will keep on doing as per our own mind. I am telling you, because ground reality problem you have to face and you have to immediately find a solution. And if you do not have a document, logically you will go with your experience. And in that experience you might be thinking it's right, but may be stature auditor, may be MHRD may feel it's wrong. If a document comes from MHRD then logically things are in place. I take example why I have raised this point. Because if you remember my first session, first five minutes I started with this, it is exactly same reforms which came 15 years earlier at the local government level. Even at the local government level what they have done, they have prepared a state manual. First they prepared a national manual, national means country level, but then they realized it that each state has their own problems, own revenue structures. They then have prepared each state manual or state come at the both ends, approval from the state government. And if it is approved from the state government then logically local government has to follow it. Now each and every state has that manual. So whenever any problem arises they immediately refer to that state manual. Exactly here we can have it. We even can have it. Now you tell me I'm just putting in front of you. Should this be centralized or it can be of three level? For university separate, for school separate and for colleges separate. Is there a major difference? So we can have three tiers also. Tier one, tier two, tier three one, one we can have a centralized and then we can have separate volumes for schools, colleges, the variations. The common we can prepare a common document and a separate we can have a separate part. So that if you are working for university then you don't need to refer to school level. If I'm working for school level there is no need to refer to the university level. Agreed sir? Because CBC makes you have school volume. Sir there can be only one volume. Okay. It can incorporate various chapters. Sir it will come, it will also come. Sir it also comes with issue problem. You will agree. Yes. What we can have it can have one common volume and one separate volume. It has a benefit column. As a student I'm saying when there is one volume and it has a difference. It is the max. It is the max. There will be one for common volume. There will be one for the upper stage. For the discussion purposes, where if one of the volumes is written we can have a higher volume. If we do something with the other volume we can have a higher volume. That is the max. I started with the last page, how many pages it has it and as a normal student we generally whenever the document is given you always see the thickness of it, in how many days we will complete it and we all are being governed by our seniors, a senior will say this document has come from ministry, please read it, make a synopsis and tell it to me. I am telling you that I am talking about the real-life reality, I am sitting in the ministry daily basis by joint secretary give us some document, Pankaj read this and in the evening make a presentation of five minutes, they expect hundred pages document to give a presentation five minutes, we have to make it, that is the real-life scenario I am talking about, it means the operation manual required, so we agree here one common and one at separate levels, agreed everyone, because at the last I will be typing in front of you the five or six bullets, which will be given to sir, sir common manual, common things like depreciation rates, let us suppose formats, that is common, sir, just transactions can be different, sir, maybe university level transaction can be different, colleges level transaction, for example, school level, nursery, primary every view is different and the fees come quarterly, but generally colleges fees, you all know, comes once in annual, sir, when this manual will be prepared, it is a consultative process, it is not that they will prepare it, they need the consultation from you guys, if let us suppose I have been hired, these manual are never prepared by ministry, it is always prepared by the external agency, external agency is hired, they will come to you. When the manual is prepared, the ministry or someone has issued a guideline, it is basically prepared. Absolutely, sir. So, the common name that will be made for it, as the common name will be made, all the routes will be incorporated in it, so many times it will be a problem to refer it, if it is a small manual, it can be studied quickly. Small manual? Small means the manual of an institutional level, as if it will be of the centre of the school level. Sir, you are saying that the university is different? Okay. I am watching the payroll of the same level, it should be set in the same manner. Can be. No problem, sir, there is no issue in that. We need to see it in an easy way, not that. Perfectly fine. Tell me, Mr. Bakshi, can be possibility? I am just putting a solution, let us see how much it is implemented. Sir, what a consultant generally, generally whenever a consultant is, I agree with you, sir, he will always first of all see to what extent the variations are there. He will refer first of all your annual report, let us suppose annual report of school, right, may be the autonomous bodies like IM, IIT, may be colleges separate, school, you will see the report first. When I read the report, frankly speaking, if you ask me as a CA, 60% are same, even 70% are same I should say, like accounting policies are common almost, right, format is a common format, there are only minor variations. So, if you have a separate, can be separate, but guaranteed as a, that separate may be 70% things are common, you will see. I can be, but that's the way it is. What is there to do with a consultant? What does he do, he will take control, control C, control V, and 70% is common. He doesn't have to do anything, I am telling you that, right? That can be done, there is no problem in that. Now, make it volume, or separate it, at least 70% things are common. Done sir, you put a suggestion and let's see, now you tell me, is it possible to implement in one month? There has to be some time frame, it will take at least 3 or 4 years. So, I have designed some time frame, we will come to it at slide. All these points will be discussed in detail also. Then we will add to each and every point, add or delete. But do you agree that time frame has to be there? Because unless, until time frame is there sir, we never do anything. If time frame is there, 100% there, even MHRD will have the responsibility, IKAI will have the responsibility, and even from your side also, they will be responsible. Because please understand, it's not a one-man show, it's a joint show. It's not like a long tenet, if one player is playing it. It's like a cricket match, where everyone has to perform it. What about the next one? Because whenever discussing with most of you guys, everyone was saying at least for starting 2 years, 3 years, we need some support from the external agency. Maybe ICI supports it, someone has to be there, who has a technical knowledge, who has experience in this. Otherwise it's very, very difficult reason being, you guys are talented, expert, but the problem is you guys are already so busy in your work. Because at present, the TKGF actually sessions start over there. I know I'm being a part of DU. There's a lot of pressure, especially in colleges in the month of July. In schools, generally March and April admission time. Examination time, a lot of pressure. So at that time, reforms, etc. goes one side. But at least if you have one support, and with the permission from MHRD, will it help or not? You don't get proper support from the university. Okay, sir. In a way... What happens is, the practical difficulty, what they want, according to them, is most important. When people work in the university, they feel that they are wasting their time. One person should be in the university, who can understand that what they are asking for, is for our own good, for my own good. There is no one in the university who understands this. In general, in most of the universities, non-professional people work. Mostly teachers are finance officers. So they don't care that their accounts are bad, it's good to go to Chulabhaal. So their support, from the university, cannot meet the external agency. Okay. And in many places, it has changed for two months, it has changed for four months, it has not changed anywhere. Okay. And in this situation, all this exercise will be zeroed. So you are saying support from the top? Yes. Support from top, and there is a professional there, who can understand that this external agency, which has come to work, it is one of the most important things. Otherwise, that work is considered to be the lowest, useless, the expert will sit there, the whole day will sit there, he will not get a single piece. Thank you. It's a very common problem. You are right, sir. I have faced, being a CA, we keep on sitting outside. Right? I'll take an example. In Raipur, Raipur I went and joint secretary gave me the time. And he said at nine o'clock, I was waiting outside, sitting on the chair, right? In a scorching heat in Raipur. And at nine o'clock, was appointment, he called me inside at two o'clock. I was waiting outside for five hours. Because I have experience of 32 years, four years in HRD ministry, 18 to 20 years in urban local bodies, and in power sector textile industry, paper industry, so many industries. And what I have failed, wherever they are, professional expert working in the organization, their performance is very good, where the professional is not working as a head or in the actual capacity. Their performance is always very bad in spite of getting a lot of expert outside expert. Okay. So there, in university, on a special level, professional expert is very important. You have come to the video studio, you are also coming to the CBC level. Yes, sir. Sir, the ministry says that you are an autonomous organization. But in financial matter, if we slightly change our audience, they reject it and say, follow the GFR rule. In case our university, we had done 15,000 rupees by increasing it to 25,000 local purchase. General purchase. And through the local purchase committee, we increased it to 1.5 lakhs. The ministry directly rejected it and said, follow the GFR rule. So where we have given the autonomy in case of financial? That should be clear from the ministry. We should be given the autonomy. Sir, I think the first time that the ministry will come, that should be given from the ministry. It should be given autonomy. Sir, I think this point is related to it. I feel in the existing mindset, if at the beginning only we take a professional external help, then we will never learn. So it's important like this manpower resource development, where we learn, we learn to implement. We may have hitches. We have experts like you to guide us. But we learn, not with professional help. We are, I mean in our interaction with here, we heard that some of the institutes have appointed CA to make the final accounts. So therefore they have no headache to learn. They will do only the basic interest and give it to CA. So I think we need to develop our own manpower. You are right, but there is always some drive is also there. It all depends upon the person also. Actually in the present day scenario, where you cannot have expert from all the fields in your institute or in your organization. So in my work in IIT Guwahati, now I am at NIT Magalaya. So considering the resources available inside my organization, I have taken help from outside experts. So you will have to go for that. That does not mean that we are not learning. I am not saying you are wrong. You are perfectly right. But the problem is, when you are starting, whenever some glitches are there, immediately when you are working already in the organization, you are so busy, sometimes that issue gets lingering. When you have already some agency, not sitting there. But at least when you have some support, let the presentation be over. I have even provided a solution also. At present I am just giving the challenges. Right? And I am just hearing from you guys. These are the challenges and what solution we can have it. Because we are here for a group. Right? Not for a single school or university or college. Definitely we may not solely depend on the experts in here. We have to learn. But as the time goes by, we always have to take help from some external agencies or experts. This is the year of the day now. I will take an example. If I remember correctly, Sir has pointed out two days earlier that it is very tough for a physical verification. In that physical verification, let's suppose you may take a help. For a valuation of some assets, when you are not the engineer, you may take a help. It's not necessary for everything. But for some part where you feel that you need a help, you can have it. Yes, sir. Sir, generally I am working at CBSE, but I have worked in other ministries also. Problem persists. It is there in almost all the organizations. The degree only varies. CBSE is a unique case because it doesn't receive the grants from the government of India. It's a self-sufficient body. That's why the problem is very meager in CBSE. Because it is headed by academicians and it is headed by AES presently. So they understand all the problems also. Wherever problems are there, either at my level or at the level of the chairman or secretary level, we resolve the issues. But in my earlier assignment, I had seen that accounts is certainly the kind of acceptance which it should get. It is not getting. Because some problems when we raise, then it is taken, it takes a back seat only. Because issues which are raised are not the issues which are, you know, in front of all the scientific community or the other community which are sitting at the helm of affairs. They don't see it at a level which they ought to have seen it. Sir, I agree. Finance is always taken only as a figure and they are always, because finance has tangible issues. So I agree, that attitude is everywhere. Sir, what happens in that? We are assessed on a different platform. This is a financial account. There is no further discrimination. Finance is still taken care of. Account is not. I know account is never. We are assessed by two standard. One, when we deal with on the front phase, we make the payments, we entertain bills, we do all those things. People's expectation from us is that their payment should be released immediately and their things should be done, their files should be cleared. If we do that, then we are very good person. But in the back end, when we are to prepare the accounts, when we have to see the bank reconciliation statement, when we have to implement accounting, it is none of their business. They think it is the job of the accounts officer and hardly any support is there. Sir, I think it won't happen. I think let's not even expect that outside people will change the attitude. Let me say one more thing. So when we hire the external agency, the internal people, what they feel, external agency has come. But again, the work is to be done by the internal agency. The kind of support which is to be given to the external agency doesn't come. Because they see, they have come and set on our head actually. So that... Sir, again, that's an attitude change. That is correct. This is the problem. So what we do, the solution, what we have found out, we have appointed nodal officer. That nodal officer, the external agency will deal with the nodal officer and nodal officer will deal internally. Okay. Because he will be knowing all the sections, all the departments inside the organization or university or IIT or IIMs or any other organizations. So the nodal, the external agency will not deal with the individual staff. They will deal with the nodal officer and nodal officer will deal with all the swag and he will provide expected support to the agency so that whatever is expected, it comes in reality. Okay, let's say... Yes, sir. Sir, nodal officer also is from one of us only. From one of us, he may be dip to the star or star or... Sir, basically, in the ULBs, a centralized person has been designated. In urban local bodies, a centralized person has been designated. Whoever comes from outside, first will tell him the concept of training of trainers. Then at nodal officers will tell to the finance officers, account people later. It's like training of trainers. I think sir, most of the university shorties of account staff, number one. Okay. Then initially, there should be a external agency for starting this process. Okay. And I don't agree with nodal officer. Nodal officer should be either account officer or finance officer or whatsoever from the internal side of the university. Okay. It is extremely necessary for external agency for starting the this process. To cover? Yes. Then university itself will start this work in future. Ma'am, please. Yes, sir. The North Eastern Hill University had started this new format of accounting in 2006-07 with the wholehearted support of the consultant of NIF. Okay, good. We have started. Okay. Faridabad. NIFM Faridabad. Yes, yes. But the point is our finance officer as per statute is to be a member from the organized account service or SCA or a master's degree with 18 years or 16 years experience in financial administration. So we hardly get members from the organized service, organized account services nowadays. There's dirt on those. So neither CA applies and though we could have one, the finance officer is a senior post of five years. So five years, the sense of ownership, sense of belonging to the institute is you can understand like regular employees. We are regular employees but we belong to general cadre. I got it. General cadre. We may be made to work in finance. We may be made to work in the personnel section. That transfer, that is all of it. I'll come to that point. Those points I have already noted because I know what happens generally. You are working in one organization, one department for two years. You learn something then you're transferred. That point is already there and we'll put all these points and solutions. You will be surprised we'll feel it later. Sir. Sir, all of our autonomous bodies that are at this date, who who have these professional means these days, all of these transitional changes are going on we don't have expert staff. Right, sir. I mean even our staff below doesn't know anything about debit credit. I agree. I agree. And the other is even the executive levels are not fully defined in the recruitment rules that at least some CAICWA professional degree should come at least. So that means if the external agency works properly so that it works properly in the coordinated way and how strong autonomous bodies can implement all these changes. Right. I'll just add it here. Sir, the project which I'm doing for the World Bank now there we have done one project one assignment municipal cadre for 34 cities right, there is one external agency they have seen the current cadre and how that cadre can be changed or reformed and they have suggested lot of changes in that exactly here the finance and account schedule because generally what happens with due respect to everyone even I've been a part of I know it whenever you get a permanent job especially at some level we feel take care of the job whether we do the work we don't do the work it's least bothered and you're right at least at some level they are not even knowing about the accounts they're doing this they even don't follow the order sometimes I agree to it that point and that point is always there almost all the NIT universities are running sort of staff in accounts proper staff in accounts department so getting the professional services very much required but here we find that proper professional agency proper professional agency is not available in every city everywhere so just to be defined I've given a role to ICI I've come to it that is the next slide many chartered accounts and firms are there who are of the quality and the regular kind of all all CA's cannot do this work because this is a typical government experience and that's the reason let me come to that side of CA I've put it the responsibility there and another thing for assistant and deputy registrar in all universities as far as I know the minimum in the US are 55% marks that is nothing is given no weightage is given to professional okay that that I agree sir I have two suggestions over here one like when online e-filing I mean return was introduced by enterprise department TDS yeah TDS there were a TPO wear trend across the country right and for this format also I'm sure that other colleagues may agree from are not trained for this particular even external agencies are not there with us who can prepare our account one we are of course not trained others are also not trained so we can have a manpower who can prepare they will account either external or internal water may be one secondly we should have a strong technological intervention in that we all agree that technological intervention one can feed the data and get the output sir that other agencies MHRD has already started that from IIT Kanpur only one software presentation was prepared I come to it that too in the name of his software I'll tell you telling the things it's different and particularly different there should be a strong time limit and the output result there should be centralized software kind of ARP software so through which software prepare that account I'll put that I'll come to it already yes sir please in account section in any IIT there are some problems that doesn't happen with other sections like we have to as a charter accountant you can understand we have to file TDS return service test return workers welfare sales and other all things related formality we face two times audit internal audit one time CAG audit we have to spend our management doesn't think that they always think about the ratio which is given by the MHRD that teaching employees and non-cheating employees these ratios should be maintained but in case of account section it is specifically it should be considered that staff of the account section should have to give time to study the taxation laws updation in taxation laws and procedure which is regularly changed in TDS and other institutions that we have to spend time in that also training MHRD's responsibility at the institutional level is blank let me come to that they always feel that some person working in establishment or administrative section and they are maintaining only leave records they compare that if 4 person are maintaining all the administration then you can only look at the procedure part I am telling you the attitude part I have been facing this you have been facing this this time I want to request to Bokshi sir to do something like should be access in account section in comparison to other section I am telling you even Bokshi sir can only present it even you know at the government level it is the hierarchy and wait for Friday now you never know I am telling you that you look at any you look at any point manual for administration okay another manual for accounts two separate manuals should be prepared sir here we are not talking about administration we have to say we have to combine another third to the accounts right okay sir so we one step we have to go upward take care finance ministry we have to take the ministry of finance who has who have been giving us the budget under different heads okay we have to consider why why I did not understand that why ministry of finance will be involved here ministry of finance a lot of the budget ministry of finance give the budget to the M.H.R.D. okay in different heads that we have to consider but sir whatever I know budget requirement always goes on the bottom okay right you have to yes yes and then it gets definitely even very so many deviation is made by the ministry of finance also so that we have to be followed sir whatever the budget they allotted according to that the accounts are to be prepared under the different M.H.R.D. responsibility yes M.H.R.D. responsibility that they will have to provide a separate budget for these reforms they have to request for a separate budget for the reforms because until budget separate logically even to pay the professional agency you need money there is a separate budget for the ministry ministry of finance a lot a separate budget to the M.H.R.D. and M.H.R.D. again it distribute to the institutions I have only made a suggestion a separate budget may be a minimal budget only for the reforms budget in different heads they provide the budget in the different in plan and non plan agreed sir this will be they may have to create a separate head whatever it is but they have to be some budget for reforms moreover we are government autonomous institutions GFR to be followed that instructions to be taken sir already GFR sir when ministry issue a guidelines issue GFR automatically GFR those are not a part of the decision making here my humble whatever the topic is for the today because otherwise we are going to waste most of the time discussion and all that and we can take up all these things at the end of it sir the thing is that we can take up the problems but most of the things which are at the decision making level so here we can just recommend sir I agree sir I agree sir sorry exactly right I have provided a solution of training also for the seniors also training at different levels only sir only please just now sir mentioned that there should be two manuals one for the administration one for the finance and you said that we are not discussing the administration part is not covered here practically there are number of issues related with finance like procurement of assets which is handled by administration like we have purchased an inventory control department sir let me intervene here if you have seen any manual that manual always has a section of the procurement also no that manual always has it what I was trying to make out that a substantial part of the information which is required by the finance is to be handled or to be taken under the manual so whether it is one manual or two manual but it will be covered sir in the finance manual there is operational manual means all the operations will be covered and most of the difficulty is that the finance people are facing a number of areas are such that the information required is not getting gone and when the operation manual will come you will ask for all the issues sir I have a suggestion sir is the department of department of department of department of personal training so I H T M secretary training management they make a new joining And first let me complete the entire part because whatever the issues you are raising all are being covered here, right. Sir. Yes sir. Perfect. I agree to it. I agree. Let me first run through the slides so that we can complete it. And then I am telling you your 90% issues will be covered here. Then we can agree. I will open a blank slide and let us put it here, right. Then we have to take approval on the e-based software for the new format. Already MHRD has taken the initiative. Two or three workshops are already being conducted. I was also part of one of the workshop in Delhi where by the software the template was introduced. It is being prepared by I think, I think I cannot put. So already that process is going on. So its even URL etc. was given to me. I have checked it. So even in that presentation we have made some suggestions. I hope those suggestions till now might have been covered. If I remember correctly that was made last year. Sir, Bakshi sir if I remember correctly last year sir, last year April May or May May it was made. This is the work which you can expect by MHRD to take the initiative at the your level, institutional level. At present I agree it is a common workshop but of course there to handle the separate issues we can have a regional workshops for separate schools, colleges also. That initiative can be taken by MHRD easily. Apart from training I have always felt, I have followed this in lot of my assignments. We always go for the group discussions, focus group discussions with the accounts officers. Let us suppose I am organizing at one state. In that one state or one city all the bodies finance people will come, they will sit together, they will discuss all their issues for one day, point out and list out the issues and then those issues are being forwarded to the, that is from city to a state, state to the national and finally to the ministry. It means let us suppose even in daily I am organizing it. So in daily all the autonomous bodies can organize together, where finance people can come, they can present their issues for one day, discuss it, find the solutions, not only the problems, please giving the problems is very easy and to give the solutions also. That even the initiative may be the ministry can take it, organize at city level, at the state level and it is hardly one-one day workshop, one-one day, even half day. We can just sit together, decide that these are the problems we are facing it and these can be the possible solution. As sir said, once he comes in that discussion he lists out, it should be included in NIFM or Institute of Governance or etc. You can mention in that solution, apart from this common workshop because in a large group you never have a concrete solution. Concrete solution always come in one-to-one. So it is always advisable sir, you have city level pay, it is only daily maybe we can have for IITs, IIT Delhi is there, we can have the University of Delhi or other institutes. Their finance people can come together, present their problem of one day and find out the solutions. No external agency is required in that, they can just come and present it. If we can have let us say 50 such workshops, 50 such discussions, in 50 days, in 50 days you will have a very good ready reference solutions available and ask one person to compile everything and prepare a solution. Your automatically it is ready, guaranteed. This is the only time frame from my mindset I prepared, can be changed. In 13, 14 if you see already the year has gone, when I was discussing with most of you, some of you were saying that we are already preparing the new format, some of you are also preparing old format because of C&AG. At present 13, 14 I am assuming it, it is a parallel. You are doing new format because you have to submit to MHRD, you are doing old format because you have to satisfy your auditor. Maybe a, maybe a herculeous task in one year, I know big task for one year but starting may, hameysha tough hotay, for one year I agree tough, but in 14, 15, in this entire one year if MHRD take some actions they can have a quarterly workshops at the state level on the new format. Not on once, twice, thrice, four times, ya 3, 4 bar ekhi workshop hogi uske issues apne aap nikal ke aayenge and you guys will be more comfortable then. And don't even wait for the annual statement, ministry is saying annual you can even start preparing quarterly first of all, prepare a quarterly draft as per the new format. Quarterly draft mein itna bade transactions nahi hote, prepare quarterly, bring that quarterly draft in the workshops in your group discussions, share with each institutes and then share the problems. That can be very good solution sir, if you can have quarterly workshops on the new format, no standards nothing, on the new format, how to sell it, how to prepare it because yesterday two or three balances were given to me, I was going through it. They had only one issue, whether it is right, whether it is wrong or not. And they mainly wanted to know whatever we have prepared is right or not. It means if you have a quarterly workshop, it will be done. Similarly, this have added because third important is gone, C&AG representative at least at the state level workshop should be invited. And they never mind if you send a letter to them, they will be more happy to be there. If they are present in the workshop, they can understand the rationale of these reforms. What I have experienced last two days, mainly all of us are little bit indifferent towards the reforms because they know they have to satisfy auditor also. If auditor says relax, I will check your new format, I will not check the old format. I can guarantee most of you will be agreed ready to go for the new format. If C&AG representative is invited and he also says fine, I am happy with the solution. I will be more happy if you follow accounting standards, if you follow rules and regulations, my task will be much more easier. And if that report has been prepared by a CA let us say or has been checked by a CA, then logically the auditor work is almost half, that is only suggestions. Then of course agreement on the e-base software, which is very, very important because manual is tough and I agree with sir, it has to be some centralized software. It is not that IIT Delhi is following something else, IIT Kanpur is following different software, tough, IAMs is following their own software, it is guaranteed reporting format will be different. And it has the biggest issue, let us suppose IAM Calcutta person has been transferred to IAM ripo, I am assuming it, then there is a issue because then he has to work for the new software again. Yes sir has worked with ministry also, CPSC also, if you are working in different level and different software again a tough, again you have to start from scratch, which I know as a human being and at our age, I know it is very tough. You can learn, you can cram the things by at the age of 20-25, but after 25 you can learn the new things, to cram is very tough and that is the reason there has to be one ready solution available. And of course operational manual is very, very important, if it is possible it can be easily be prepared within 6 months, in Kabul we prepared in 3 months, 6 months is a good time and you saw manual is ready, you can have a draft manual first of all, shared with everyone, let the sessions come and then a final solution. And the last I prepared, 15-16 financial statement through e-base as per the new format. Or when the software already covers the new format and the training has been given, you have to just go there, feed the data and get the results. Even depreciation rates etc will already be there, like in the income tax software, in income tax software we never calculate the depreciation, we just put the plant automatically they calculate it. Similarly, if you have a exhaustive list of university, state and centre, put it put the depreciation rate there, immediately when calculated not required, so that possibility can be there. I hope this time period is fine or you want a further twist. This is the expectation from ICI front, I am no one from ICI sir. Sir, I agree sir, even what you can have it, we are following it, we have organized one workshop for the local government, fast for the accounts, then we have organized one workshop on the commission level, commission level, because when the commission level people come automatically the power goes down. You can also have one, we are not the decision making authority, you can have one, one day workshop only for the senior people, where you know teaching them, you are telling to them the ration of the reforms, then logically when the top management knows it, it automatically comes downwards. You can have one day workshop for that also, I agree with you, let me complete this, give me 10-50 minutes, then all discussion only, provide clarification about the applicability, because I know still some of you are not comfortable whether AS are applicable to us or not. Let the regulation or the notification come from the ICI, that yes these AS are applicable to the university or the education institute also and ICI can give you the list that these are the AS relevant, I have prepared at least also. Then as they are doing right now support to MHRD in giving the trainings, because again these trainings are very, very different, not like a commercial or private training, because in these training only that people can surface who has the government knowledge, person having the private sector background will never be able to do justice here. This which you guys are mentioning, ICI can create one regional accounting cell, ICI had present as the five regional councils and I see southern, eastern, western, central. This is just a suggestion from my side, maybe ICI follow or not, but it's from my mind. If they create one regional accounting cell from their office itself, there is a committee called PDC, professional development committee. There is also one committee committee in public finance and government accounting. If that committee can create a accounting cell at all the regional levels, let's suppose at the western level, anyone in the western region, maybe IT Bombay, they get immediately refer their problem to western region, so we are facing this problem in the implementation. So immediately a solution will be given to you and solution given by ICI, no one questions, I'm telling you, not even an auditor question set. So if that accounting cell like a call center, like a health center, if it can be created, will it help or not? Yes or no? It's just from my side, let me see whether it can be implemented or not, but I'm sure generally they follow. Then these are the some standards which I have listed out of 31, which might be relevant to different organizations. Sir, going back to that implementation, you have mentioned that 2013-14, parallelly two accounts to be prepared. It is for those organizations, in the last two days they mentioned to me that already they are preparing at the old format also, reason of the auditor, and they are preparing the new format also because of the MHRD. This year actually what we have to do is since, this year whether we have to prepare in new format or in old format? That we'll take it at the last. What to do, we'll take it at the last. Okay. Now yesterday our AS-13 was not covered, but AS-13 frankly speaking when I was going to the annual report, all of you are following almost right, because as for AS-13 it talks about the investment. My suggestion is that in accounts department, in any organization, late it be IAT, IM, or CBC or any other department, persons who are not knowing accounts are also posted in the account section. At the time of recruitment also newcomers are given. They are also posted in the account section. There is no induction training at all. So my suggestion is that why can't we make a course which is required to be completed by the person. It may be three days course or five days course or seven days course. They have to undergo this course conducted by ICI. It need not to be a qualifying kind of thing, but they have to undergo this course and they get the awareness about the accounting standards which are to be implemented. I think it will help, it will go a long way. That's a good suggestion. I agree ma'am. Ma'am agreed, but until unless... I agree. There are always two types of training, of the job on the job. Of the job has to be at least one day only, then you can go for on the job. At least one day of the job has to be there ma'am. Otherwise on the job is not possible. Presently what happens, the staff which are posted to the account section, they will not be knowing accounts. If they do not succeed in any of the department, they are sent to the accounts department. In most of the institute, this is my experience I am telling you. Based on my experience I am telling you. Because what they perceive, they think that account department has to do nothing, they have to add two plus two, it becomes four, and they have to just pass the bills. So we get the kind of stuff which are not, you know, performing in other sections or other departments. Those kind of staff are posted in the accounts department and then we expect accounting standards to be implemented. So there should be a condition that the person should have that certificate. Then only he can be posted in the accounts department. Like in schools, like in schools they have done it for the CTT exam. Yeah. And then the persons who are posted in the accounts department, they remain under the control of the finance officer. Because if there is a rift, there is a rift, immediately they are, you know, scented. If the person is not performing as per the expectation of other senior officers. I agree. And creating problems. They are perceived that they are the challenges. So they are removed. I will take a first investment. Investments are always two types. Everyone knows it. Current and long term. Current investment is up to 12 months. Please understand if you see AS-13, that was the question which was asked to me last yesterday. So how we decide whether it is current or long term. If you see the AS-13, it very clearly says if the organization intends to dispose of within 12 months, then it is current. It means I am assuming it. Let's suppose in February, I have purchased some share in February. And I am saying no. I will not sell it at least for two years. It means in the month of March, February and March, two months, still one year, still one year has not gone by. My accountant will ask me, they will ask management. Tell us this investment you have made whether you are keeping till one year or more than one year. Whether one year has gone by or not irrelevant. The word in AS is very clear, intent, intention. So February may, I know, let's suppose in month of February I have purchased some capital gain bonds. Everyone knows it. And capital gain bonds you cannot redeem before three years. Even though I have purchased in February, it's a long term. Let's suppose in the month of February, I have opened a fixed deposit in a bank to claim ATC deduction. That tax deduction FD you cannot redeem before five years. If you have deposited FD in the month of February to claim ATC, so even though two months, still it is one, still it is a long term. And AS is the easiest. Current investment is always valued at cost price or the fair value or the market value whichever is lower. Whichever is lower. But in most of the institutions when I was going through the annual report, mainly investment is here. Am I right? Mainly, I am not saying exhaustive list. Basically, you invest the money of your PF. What is NPS? In some annual report it was written that some money is invested in shares also. In debenture and bonds. Sir, I have seen the annual report with me. I want to understand. I don't know how this is happening. I am not sure. Because it was written in PF five percent earlier. Am I right, sir? PF has guidelines up to maximum five percent. You can invest in shares. And that decision has to be taken by the management. Correct me. I don't feel that. But generally, when I was going through the annual report, it was allowed. Sir, you do the fair. In the government organisation, the biggest fear is that it will happen. We always have had shares. Sir, you are my example. I am really scared about the big, bigger swings. But my wife enjoys it, my kids enjoy it. So, fear is a relative term. If something happens, then in that case, the government is not going to... Agreed. Government is not going to... I have the permission in the guidelines. I know PF with the guidelines. It is written in it. It is permitted. And sir, please. It is not necessary that you always invest in a risky shares. Shares are different. As a debenture bonds. How many of you have invested in debenture and bonds? But debenture bonds are not risky. Sir, nowadays, there are balance funds or balance funds you can invest in. So, that was a type of investment mainly. From Institute now comes to you guys. Early it was very, very easy. Yes, MHRD, ICI. Now, let's see from your side. Get the acceptance of the management and that will be done in coordination with MHRD. They have to organise one training of your seniors. And they have to agree that yes, these reforms are required. Because I know once you go to the real life, senior always says, forget about the reform first. First talk about the day. This is in the day you have to go by the report. First complete that. I know that. Then comes, there is always one common word, resistance to change. I know it's very tough. Whenever you want to change it, there is always the agitation, resistance always there. Particularly it is a very difficult older university. New university has no problem. But sir, we are needing it. But sort of a spirit chahiye. And people will learn from you. If you say yes, the reforms are required. I am telling you that juniors will immediately say yes when you can do it and why we can't do it. Sir, until that spirit is there, I am telling you nothing can be achieved. Nothing can be achieved. Team spirit is of major part. Without that, nothing can be achieved. Yes, we have already discussed it. And I am not saying permanent external agency. I am only saying contractual. When you feel that you have become self-sustenable, ask them to leave immediately. Because please understand the ma'am rightly said, if you depend upon that, then it is not good for you. It will make you handicap. You have to bring that drive. Yes, now I am self-sufficient, self-sustenable. I don't need any external help. Please go. I am telling you especially for all the youngsters, if you start developing that drive, if you start developing that drive to learn, this is the limit. You take my example. I just take two minutes. I was a permanent faculty in the University of Delhi. I could have enjoyed my life just taking two lectures daily and getting our salary up to one lakh. I resigned from that job. Many of my seniors told me, why you are designing it? You can take a leave etc. I said no. If I take a leave, then my mind will be at two places. I resigned it. At present in ICI, there is a director of Board of Studies, Mr. Vijay Kapoor. He was a permanent faculty in the University of Delhi. He resigned. He went to ICI and now he is at the director level. So if you want to learn and if you want to reach at the sky level, I am telling you there is no limit. And I am impressed at our Ministry of Urban Development. There is one undersecretary, Sanjay Sharma. He is 50 plus. 50 plus. And he is at present doing MBA from Sikhi Manipal. He says after this project gets complete in which I am involved, he says I will leave the government job. I will look for the consulting. So if you take this reforms, if you take these reforms, I am telling you, these reforms specially for the youngsters are very, very good. You can have a sky as a limit for your jobs and for your career. They have two attitudes. One, yes, we have got a government job. Very good. Let's relax. Other is if you want to achieve and drive it, sky is a limit. I am telling you. Yes, sir. What I perceive, implementation of AS is having a good business projection in fact. Can we tell market to sell the solution? Sir, what I am telling, actually there are a number of central organizations, NIT, IT, IM, Central Investments, KB, NBS and other there. Implementation of AS in new format, annual account having a good business projection. Very good business projections. Okay, welcome. So, can we tell market to sell the solutions? A business prospect, market will automatically come. Sir, I am ready. You can invite me anytime. I am ready. Sir, you have got the replies. Any training at IM, the sector you want for the reforms, accounting standards, Pankaj Gauri is always there for the government advisory. You are right. You are right. See, this initiative can be taken. It is a very good suggestion. This initiative, I will take an example. It is a very good suggestion. When in 2009, in India IFRS, International Financial Reporting Standard Word came, you would not believe it in one year. Lot of institutes, you will agree, sir, in IMs, etc. There were lot of courses were designed. One week, two week, three week courses and all the professors minted the money like anything. Minted money I am telling you. That is the reason I am saying to you. Any institute out of you, which transforms the new format first time, will create, will create a template for everyone. An example for everyone. And people will invite you. Let's suppose instead of Elabar or IIT, Delhi or I am Calcutta, let's say, implement for the first time. Then people will invite you as a speaker. Please tell us. Please share your solutions. Please share your problems. It is a good business solution I am telling you. You are right. That is the reason I have made that point. That is only the mindset. If you can see that business coming up, huge money and huge appreciation in the market. First is, of course, I expect all your institutes to create one accounting cell, had it by maybe a nodal officer, having the finance officer as the nodal officer and under them, they are working the accounts people. We have followed this in all the local government and it's coming out as a good solution. Because when from central ministry any person goes, they never contact anyone, they contact nodal officer and then they go for a half day workshop, half day interaction. The nodal officer is informed. This person for ministry is coming. Immediately, nodal officer has to organize a workshop for a one hour, for interaction one hour. What is the status? Immediately. In that external agency is there. I will take example in Bhopal. I am taking real-life example. In Bhopal, there is a project going on MPI UADP, Madhya Pradesh Urban Infrastructure. Already it's a DFID, UK funded. Bhopal government is there. Consultants are there. Right? Still they have appointed me. They ask me to come there every month and review the balance sheet. It means at least they are getting an external help also. Consultant is there. Funding is there. To Hamesha Benefit. Or it's a starting one year, two years. If you have starting one year, two years, reforms automatically get implemented. To kindly, once you go there, at least try to create a group. Like we create a Google group or Facebook group and I'll advise everyone, if you can follow. Try to utilize this platform. Please create one Google platform. Everyone gets a member of that. Maybe a Facebook page. Accounting reforms, yeah. Accounting standard. And let's have a chat or sessions daily basically. We don't mind. That initiative, MHRD will not take it. Any one of you can take it. And it will really, I'm telling you, will help everyone. And of course, this is very important. Easy access to the resources. Because when the consultant, anyone comes, documents you have to provide. Sometimes, when a consultant comes on the outside, it is very tough to get the documents ready. That you have to give it. So I'm hoping for this. Do you agree? T&IG, ICI, MHRD. You guys, if we jointly bring the hands together, then guaranteed we can have a financial statement as per the new format or as per the counting. So we need a coordinated effort. Not a single effort, I'm telling you. No one wins a single effort. So I hope to continue this after the break.