 Okay, you guys all set you ready to go fantastic, okay five four three two one Welcome everyone to the second event in the National Academy's of Sciences engineering and medicine Conversation series on accessibility and inclusion in STEM I'm Dr. Rory Cooper, and I'm chair of the of our planning committee And I appreciate you joining us today This conversation in this is the second in a series of five conversations We hope that you were able to watch the pre-recorded keynote lectures and by our by our speakers Before attending today's live meeting. However, they will they are posted online and you can view them after the event We're very happy for the two excellent presentations that were provided and I'm sure that you will enjoy learning from them Our goal is that this event will offer the opportunity for active discussion Among the speakers panelists and those of you who are listening BS Lido For those of you who use Lido you can ask questions in the Q&A section of the website And we will consolidate your questions and bring them into the discussion Before we get started with our program. I'd like to introduce each of the members of our planning committee So I first like to call on Dr. Emily Ackerman to introduce herself My name is Emily Ackerman. I am a postdoctoral researcher at Harvard Medical School. I use she are pronounced Thank you for coming today Thank you Emily. Next I'd like to introduce Dr. Cheryl Bergstahler Cheryl That will move on to Dr. Julian Brinkley. Hello everyone. Dr. Julian Brinkley assistant professor of Human Center Computing at Clemson University and the director of the drive lab. I use he him pronouns and I'm a Early 40s black male with a beard. Thank you. Thank you, Julian Dr. Chris Atchison Good morning folks Chris Atchison Professor of Geoscience Education at the University of Cincinnati White male no hair beard glasses and a big smile. Good to see you all Dr. Carolyn Solomon Yes, hello, I'm a professor in the biology department. I'm also the director of school of science technology and accessibility and mathematics in public health We like to say that we make a stamp on our students futures here I use pronouns she her and hers And my background is a wall with a globe sitting to my right And I am wearing a red shirt I identify as a woman and thank you all so much for joining our conversation today Great. Thank you, Carolyn. I should say I'm Rory Cooper. I'm a white male Early 60s a veteran of the United States Army spinal cringy wheelchair user And I use the he him pronouns And I in my background is a there's a bookshelf with various knickknacks on it Well, thank you So at this point, I'm going to turn over the moderating to Carolyn Solomon Who will be our moderator for today's discussion on accessibility inclusion In stem in the context of laboratory based research and education. Thank you, Carolyn Yeah before we get into our conversation today and introduce our presenters and keynote speakers I wanted to give the opportunity to give a brief overview of today's highlights And their presentations And I wanted to also invite the public in this opportunity So We wanted to go ahead and give the opportunity for you guys to go ahead and watch our pre-recorded conversations Before we get into the discussion today But if you weren't able to watch the pre-recorded conversations, they are posted online and available for your later viewing We do have some keynote speakers for this event today First I'd like to introduce Brad He practices and at the Weldon school of biomedical engineering and the school of industrial engineering at Purdue University So first if you'd like to go ahead and and introduce yourself brad and get started That's my pleasure. Thank you I'm brad durstock. I'm a professor of practice at Purdue University I use the pronouns. He is him I'm a white male and a chetroplegic wheelchair user due to a spinal cord injury In my full presentation, I mentioned some strategies for increasing accessibility and productivity in the biomedical lab environment I also discussed Why being able to actively participate in biomedical labs is imperative for promoting the inclusion of people with disabilities and instant fields Traditional biomedical or white labs are pervasive throughout secondary and post-secondary educational institutions and research centers These are really the the forages In which scientists and engineers in the life sciences are created uh the whole Pedagogy of the life sciences and medicine are really founded on the principles of activity based learning and providing students practical or hands-on lab experiences Too often the focus of ADA compliance in the past has been really providing students with disabilities access to labs But not to be active participants Thus there's a lot of uh barriers uh to people with disabilities from achieving a ultimate career in STEM We believe that by enabling students with disabilities to be as independent as possible Is important to be a successful and undergraduate STEM education And very critical to postgraduate education and conducting research and being skilled in the medical arts Um We acknowledge that there is a need for multiple strategies though To help students with disabilities to be successful in the lab sciences Including universal design features and laboratories and developing accessible lab equipment There is also a need to improve the training of instructors and TAs Who are at the forefront of teaching? Uh new students with disabilities to be proficient in lab activities and not to be discouraged from entering STEM Um There needs to be a better definition of what lab assistants Are needed for students and what their roles are um virtual lab training has its place as well and um critical I think also is to provide students as many uh other training uh options opportunities such as internships um But beyond that I think there also needs to be a reevaluation of what qualifies as being successful in STEM Um to ultimately achieve a career as a scientist or engineer There are other barriers to inclusion such as timelines that are expected in order to graduate or reach tenure um attitudes toward people with disabilities being in STEM necessary funding support mechanisms and um just other supports such as mentoring and uh other activities that many able-bodied students might benefit from but are not available to those with disabilities So greater inclusion really improves conditions for everything It's a rising tide that lifts all posts Better human factors and lab accessibility Increases efficiency decreases repetitive motion stresses uh the input of people uh with disabilities leads to diversity of thought Insights in a lot of different disciplines Uh in STEM the new perspectives in terms of health care medicine human computer interaction and other engineering fields So I think I'll stop there so we can engage others in this discussion But um I I want to first really uh thank the national academies of sciences engineering and medicine And this program for given this opportunity to speak and thank you very much Yes, thank you brad I'd now like to go ahead and introduce our second keynote speaker Dr. Teresa Edelman Dr. Edelman earned her PhD from the University of Minnesota and the Molecular Cellular Development Biology and Genetics Program She is currently co-PI of S STEM Which is scholarship in STEM She's also involved in mentorship program and biology instructor at Minneapolis Technical And Community College if you'd like to go ahead Teresa Thank you so much for that introduction My name is Teresa Edelman. I use she her her pronouns And I'm an instructor at Minneapolis Community and Technical College I am a white woman with uh brown hair Brown eyes. I'm wearing an orange sweater And in the background is a light blue wall and two white doors Um, I was born with a genetic mutation Which uh results in achondroplasia dwarfism It's the most common form of dwarfism And I stand about four feet tall I meet uh my disability actually I'm kind of um sparked my interest in science Because I under it caused me to um Think at a very early age about the implications of the genetic mutation that I carried Um, I've worked in several wet labs Throughout my career starting in high school college After college I was a junior scientist And I went to grad school and now I'm an instructor And I've taught in a number of different wet labs Getting around labs with high benches and tall stools is difficult For people with disabilities to access inaccessible spaces such as labs Oftentimes accommodations need to be made in order to provide access Some accommodation I explained in my talk can be in the form of assistive technology Which is any sort of device or technology that helps disabled people perform tasks that would otherwise be difficult or impossible to do In most spaces I use a step stool to access My environment including counters lab benches and equipment And while uh accommodations can provide access they don't provide inclusion uh because they um Because uh receiving an accommodation there's a number of barriers In order to achieve that um And that often That needs to happen and begin with self advocacy Um, I explained in my shared in my talk that self advocacy was very difficult for me Because I believe drawing attention to my disability gave people a reason to Feel that I was unqualified Or incapable of You know succeeding um I also talked about Ways that we can make environments more inclusive through universal design Um universal design creates spaces and tools that can be used by everyone not just the average able-bodied user Um One example that I shared about um Universal design uh a feature that I benefited from was a height adjustable table In the lab that I did my phd thesis work And this um Universal design feature was very powerful because I no longer needed to use a step stool Um, and I didn't need an accommodation in order to receive that access um, and so these kinds of you know, um This universal design philosophy and method of thinking Um can go a long way in providing other people with disabilities access to lab environments Um creating accessible spaces isn't the only thing that we need to focus our intention on I talk a little bit about um making sure that events Are accessible especially events that are essential for progress within the field Um, but if our goal is to create an inclusive environment, we also need to um address some of the negative biases and ableism That prevents people from disabilities for being respected and valued um Often people with disabilities are not expected to succeed or not seen as having valuable contributions to make um I shared a story from my personal experience about how one of my chemistry instructors in high school thought that I wouldn't do well in this class because of um because I was a disabled student And that kind of thinking is um discriminatory and harmful And thinking back on that experience um and advice that or ways I would like to change that kind of thinking um to be more productive and supportive is instead of You know making assumptions about what people can and can't do Ask how can we ensure that that person is included? um What does um this individual need to succeed? um, I shared a statistic um from uh From a uh journal article from dr. Sweener at all Who's with us today on the panel that uh NIH grant applicants and awardees reporting a disability declined from 1.9 percent in 2008 to only 1.2 percent in 2018 um for me, that's very concerning and so it's imperative that we work to create an environment in which um the STEM field Not only support, but also values people with disabilities and the perspectives that um that in creativity and um You know influence that they're able to contribute to the field Um, and so I look forward to the discussions today and I think the national academy is for Using this platform to work towards some of the changes that need to be made in the field Thank you so much Teresa, so I want to take the opportunity to Introduce our other panelists who is joining us today for the structure of the conversation and um, so that would be dr. Edelman and Dr. Durstach and that will be led by dr. Bonnie Sweener and Dr. Sweener is a Is an associate professor and also in the i-institute at Johns Hopkins And is in the In the school of public health at Johns Hopkins. I apologize for the interpreting delay We also have dr. Nils hackinson who is a professor at the graduate coordinator in the department of biomedical engineering at a state university, so Welcome to the conversation So now I would like to kick it off with some structured questions For the panelists and the planning committee members that we have with us today For those who are listening to the webcast video, please add your questions and thoughts Through the q&a chat and we will incorporate your ideas into this conversation from the slido website The first question Is about the diversity in the lab experience and environment With accessibility and inclusion, what is a unique perspective that we can use to have implemented by Scientists and lab directors using universal design What would that look like and what innovative tools can be created to allow for more accessibility in those environments Who would like to answer this question first? I'd be happy to Take a stab What we find is you know just uh in terms of Be on get around reconfigurability of the lab environment Right now you think of most labs you you had in high school and the fixtures are Really makes it very difficult to get around the height of the lab benches The narrowness of the spaces in between Now with height adjustable lab benches with wheels and Getting electricity from the ceiling versus you know, it's based on the floor We can really open up a space if we need to Um and really accommodate the the movements of a lot of people whether they're blind or have mobility impairments and Also, it really not only allows for greater accessibility for that student. It also Opens up communication between the peers If I wanted to talk to someone across The room, you know, I would have to navigate around all these stools and lab benches and it's pretty much impossible and so Just having this kind of Open space concept really helps I can add something so I'm Nils Hackinson. Uh, I'm at Wichita State University male 55 years old Um praying black hair red hair day And a blurred background so you don't see my cluttered office. Um, I also have muscular dystrophy and Use a wheelchair for mobility limited dexterity so some of the components of my lab Are, you know, mostly focused towards wheel mobility or mobility limitations because that's what I know um, but we have in the past worked with Schools and We bring in like summer camps essentially high school students and really focused towards kids with disability One year we worked with in vision, which is a nonprofit group here in Wichita Focus for people who are blind or visually impaired We had a number of lab activities and in our different biomedical labs Uh, so I run a biomechanics lab. So we use video motion capture Electro myography, which is like electrocardiogram, but for skeletal muscles We have force plates. So we do walking studies jumping Rolling is just research we're working on and one of the challenges particularly for participants who are blind or visually impaired Is looking at signals and that's largely what we do with electro myography is It's a squiggly line on the screen Um, but we also realized that we could hear it and so we could take those signals and uh attach it to an amplifier for And plug-in headsets now typically we'll look at multiple muscles Uh, when we're looking at some kind of a study So you have to switch between those different muscles, but that was at least One area that we felt that we could be more inclusive and provided somebody some A different perspective and even for People who are not blind or visually impaired to hear The muscle activity is also kind of an interesting approach um be able to tell if A signal deviates in a way that you might not notice if you're just seeing it Um, I'm bonnie swenor. I am an associate professor actually at the school of nursing now as well as the school of medicine and public health at John's hopkins and the founder and director of the disability health research center here at hopkins um I use she her pronouns. I am a White woman with blonde hair in my mid 40s. Um, and I just want to first say you know, thank you for Having this panel to the national academies and thank you to Teresa and brad for their phenomenal keynote Talks and I just want to reiterate that everyone in the audience should take Time to listen and watch them. They're impressive and so important Um, and in adding to this conversation I also wanted to elevate That the lab spaces are important, but so is the space around them right to get to lab to get to um Where you need to be on a campus or at a research institution matters as well And that should also be considered universal design of honestly the entire Space is critical Someone needs to go to lunch to use the restroom to go to a conference meeting. Um At Teresa talked about this beautifully in in her talk And so I think we really do need to consider Both certainly inside the lab and inside Spaces where research is being done But really it's the whole dimension of a campus and research experience Fantastic. Yes. Thank you for sharing and I would also like to share what we've been doing at Gallaudet University For how deaf people use the lab spaces So that we can we've been incorporating the concept called deaf space And that is thinking about color Lighting and how deaf people can move around to be able to see each other And some of the results of our work Examples being the lab benches are not black Like traditional lab benches. They're actually gray because those are easier on deaf folks eyes And we also talk about what lights we use so that it doesn't cause eye strain because we are constantly watching and using our eyes One of the most fun parts about designing our lab spaces was actually setting up a mock lab in a warehouse and using GoPro cameras to Track people's motions and we realized that a traditional lab design is just not conducive for deaf people and and we wouldn't be able to instruct in a traditional setting with A teacher at the front at their own bench because the deaf students wouldn't be able to see the professor So it's really interesting to see how we use that lab and the intentionality For other people to be able to use that kind of universal design concept as well Anyone else want to add Teresa Thank you for sharing your perspective outline and others Yeah, I think kind of a big overarching theme is that one size doesn't fit all That adaptability and ways to You know modify and change the environment to To allow for somebody with a disability to come in and create the space to work well for them You know Open floor plans and modular Furniture that can be moved and changed You know if there's loud spaces making sure that there's also quiet environments for people who get distracted or if noise is a concern But One of the things that I would like to point out is that a lot of times we focus on kind of how this benefits people with disabilities, but Both universal design as well as assist assistive technology can benefit everyone And a lot of these kinds of things have become a common place in our environment A lot of technologies that started out as assistive technologies for disabled people Have become household goods for example series Being able to use your voice to send the text message or audiobooks to be able to listen to a book without having to Read the words as well as text messaging. So When we're thinking about creating these spaces um And putting resources into Making things accessible that it benefits everybody not just disabled people Thank you very well said and are there any other Thoughts or considerations that other panelists want to put forth before we move on to the next question Okay, so then the next question here we go So how do we distinguish? between accessibility and inclusion within the lab environment for example in your presentation Nils we talk about accessibility and the difference between accessibility and inclusion and the intersection between those two things and what conversations Need to happen in order for us to have both within a lab environment Sure, Teresa I guess it depends on how you define accessibility and inclusion The way I like to think about accessibility um is when people can You know engage in the same activities um Acquire the same information and enjoy the same services as a person without a disability I think of being able to you know go into a space To be able to communicate with those around me and function and work in a space similarly to others I think of Inclusion As going further Not only providing support and access but also value and respect Inclusion means that people with disabilities Have a seat at the table And we're able to access and participate in the conversation Our voices are heard And when we have input and impact and decisions That are being made I think when We ask what kinds of conversations need to happen We need to ask ourselves what we value A lot of times work that is being done focuses on Productivity how many hours you're in the lab how many papers you're publishing how quickly you're getting your ghd completed Rather than valuing kind of the perspective and experience and Significance that a person with a disability can contribute and asking You know Does their experience matter Can they contribute something In a different way if they're not able to Do the same things that able-bodied people are able to do And I think in order to do that we really have to think outside the box And so I'll uh Yeah This is by um, I Completely echo what Teresa just said, um, you know inclusion is part Accessibility but part addressing the ableism the negative stereotypes around disability And you really have to address both to get to a place of inclusion You know, I very much appreciate this conversation because These ideas are not Happening enough in stem or in higher education. We're not talking about disability enough as part of dimensions of diversity equity and inclusion And when we are it tends to be solely housed around accessibility And leaves off that component of the culture of the climate the ableism And we have to address both to really see change for this community And I think that's so critical Um, I also just want to elevate in line with what brad talked about in in his keynote Is we have to change this view that is pervasive in lots of spaces but feels Extremely pervasive. I think in higher ed and stem is You know the future isn't to focus on changing the person to fix the person It's to create the inclusive environment And I I find often that that message is not being heard or recognized. Um, and I think brad outlined very Eloquently the the history behind sort of those viewpoints. And so again, I just reiterate everyone should should watch that his talk But I think that's where we need to go. We need both components, right? We need anti ableism and That universal design sorry, I got Snap food here with a bad trackpad Um And I A little bit lost here. So I may be repetitive and I apologize for that when I think of accessibility I do think of the physical environment And it's the facilities and the structure And the inclusion is much more of the social and the understanding that And uh, Bonnie, I think she said this is very eloquently you know in bringing people in and recognizing the value and um You know just even from a perspective of there's something different and being open minded And and whether it's a disability or a different culture or a different language um a different Message on one's t-shirt to be able to say Um, you know come in and let's work together and and see what's going on and compromise and and learn from each other. So Yes, did you want to go ahead and add Teresa, did you have any additional thoughts or comments there? thing I wanted to um kind of I mean it's it's kind of been mentioned, um in Dr. Durstock's talk, um, but I also want to kind of highlight in the STEM field science and medicine especially oftentimes we really focus on the medical model of disability in which Disability is a defect that needs to be fixed until we reach what we consider quote-unquote normal And We have to Disconnect what we're doing in research and medicine from what we you know, how we value people And um, you know dr. Durstock mentioned the social model which you know, um In which disability is viewed as a social construct in the social barriers But also I want to point out that there's also A model that goes even further the disability pride model In which disability with a capital D Is a culture as well as an identity that We as disabled people hold a lot of pride in I think my disability Makes me unique and amazing and as well as you know, my family and the other people in disability community and In order like I hope that we can move towards that mindset in which we're celebrating disability We're not looking at it as a negative thing But something that makes people with disabilities Amazing and unique and the diversity that they're contributing to society Yeah, that's great. And uh brad, did you have an additional insight there? And I just um, um Some not trees have just said about disability. Um, uh, and I think I might be preaching to the choir But uh, you know, as a cultural Aspect disabilities so I say it's probably the why the largest Minority we have affects all genders effects all socioeconomic groups all races and um As someone with a mobility impairment, I don't claim to have any Great insight. I want it to be deaf or blind and so it's uh All these perspectives, you know helps me even though I'm part of the disability community. It, uh, It's such a rich Area that uh, there's always lessons to be learned so That's all I wanted to add I want to add to the comments that you guys have made here today That all of us have our own individual stories Kind of an example of ableism all of us within the disabled community We have the prejudice of ableism. That's something that we all have in the deaf community We call that autism and which people who we experience oppression by people who can hear and um, just another example of ableism um You know, I can think of times when I've gone in to give presentations Or getting letters of recommendations for students who need job opportunities and they'll always say things like um, you know, she's great. Um, and the lab or things like that, but You know, nothing I was never given real opportunities for Experiments and things like that and just different examples of ableism and being removed from specific opportunities And what we need to recognize is that like you said people with disabilities provide this unique diverse experience and something to learn and something that can be contributed to these environments So, um, yeah, Bonnie Yeah, this is Bonnie. Thank you for sharing that, you know, I Find it's striking that, you know, 30 plus years after the ADA and I'll pause to say the ADA is not a fix-all for disability inclusion But has taken us, um to some great advancements um, I'm still struck by How pervasive those stories are, you know, similar to what you just shared Particularly in STEM and higher education, you know, I think the bias and the ableism is actually quite profound and um Not always intentional, but still profound meaning I think it's still So unrecognized That it is not okay And it's just unknown, you know, I'll share my own personal story. That was a critical turning point is Early in my career. I had a colleague approach me about a project Um, they didn't know about my disability. I have a visual disability. I have low vision We met in person. They handed me a piece of paper. I couldn't see it, right? So I disclosed my disability And the person said, you know, I don't think this is going to work out I don't understand how you can see your data I don't think I could ever trust your work if you can't see your data and, you know, the project went on without me, right? And, you know, I think when I've told that story people are Are shocked, but there's also sometimes a moment of pause that's sort of like Yeah, how do you do your work? Right? And it's that pause that I think is the thing we still have to push on, right? It's that moment of of Uncertainty by still so many that we have every right to be here and we can do Exceptional work, right? And I've said this in other places. It's a radical idea That disabled scientists can be exceptional that that's still a radical idea And that's what has to change All right. Yes, absolutely So we're going to go ahead and go on to our third question here Which is how can people be proactive about establishing accessible and inclusive environments? And what infrastructure such as tools or cultures do we need to change and touch on for some of this and to Include some of our audience and what people in our audience can do about all of this This is mills hackinson um one of the And this isn't a direct answer to the question unfortunately But one of the challenges that I've experienced and some colleagues have experienced is really getting buy-in from The organization and the university that's kind of responsible for implementing things And maybe spending the extra dollars to to make things accessible and universal design You know, there's You know, I have a love-hate relationship With that group. I mean, they've done some things which I think are great and you know one point realized that As a postdoc at another university all the rest rooms were either right-handed Or left-handed so all the mailrooms were kind of right-handed as a wheelchair writer If you wanted to transfer onto the toilet or if you had a stroke that you know The grab bar was on the right side for the men's restrooms and then the women's rooms were kind of the mirror of the image of that and realized that okay on the Alternating floors you could easily swap it around so that you do have a right-handed restroom from you know men and women in the same building and brought that up to our group and then Implemented that now and all of our new buildings and we're building a lot right now, which is great, but the other side of it is the notion that ADA compliance is accessibility and The real user component Is what makes the difference and that's again, it's a wide variety of users and making the modifications Is you know There's a lot of resistance and and often the The response is well It's ADA code. We're good to go and so I think Having enough uh a critical mass Of people say no, this isn't good or hey, you know what this is to code But it's not useful And so I think that's part of you know our goal here is to get enough people with disabilities involved to be able to then have that voice and my approach has always been to um work with students They listen to students more than faculty Which is great. So This is Bonnie nails. I agree completely with everything you said, you know, I would Add to that that you know, we do need institutions of higher ed and and academic research centers to move from A posture of compliance in this space to one of You know promoting disability rights and disability justice right and and and the pragmatic approaches that nils just described Right now in most spaces it is it's just checking the boxes of legal compliance if that And um, that's not enough and that doesn't situate someone for success quite honestly The problem is in my view is that lots of leaders aren't Um, but tune to these issues And there's historical reasons for that. There's gaps in who Is in leadership there's infrequently people with disabilities in leadership positions Advising these individuals Of the community. So it takes herculean efforts to champion these causes Up to up to leadership and that's part of what I think has to change That really needs to to be the future is to create a pathway where we have more Diverse leadership that also includes people with disabilities in these settings so that we can have Really a holistic more inclusive environments And I think that's important. I'll also add to what nils said is is it's important to consider the role of funding Funding agencies in this too you know funders Both can make decisions based on sort of what different Universities and organizations are doing to promote disability inclusion As well as to support projects and disabled researchers, right and in I think there's a lot of opportunity Left on the table right now To do this And I think that's that's a path forward Yeah, Teresa Yeah, um, I just love the um kind of Richness of this conversation and all the different perspectives that are being contributed And I think that is a part like this is a perfect example of how um We need many people With disabilities to contribute to planning and um And you know with the question is about being proactive about Establishing accessible and inclusive environment like our people with disabilities On the planning committee for buildings that are being built at your institution like Let's not Wait until after the building is built To realize some of these things I like if you Access some like one of the most valuable resources that Institutions have are the disability disabled people that work and use the spaces around you and You know tap into that resource And ask or invite people to participate in planning committees and not just one disabled Because my disability is the mobility disability. I can tell you you know how you know The difficult things that are the things that are difficult for me to access But I don't have you know a visual or hearing impairment And so it's important to include people with Other disabilities that can provide a unique perspective You know and as far as cultural changes That need to be made Nobody should be ashamed of Acknowledging that they have a disability And this in my talk is I What I alluded to is being the harder thing to fix like I mean we're you know We're the STEM field, you know work here in cancer and we are you know rolling out vaccines within a year And we're sending you know billionaires out to space We can I mean like I'm starting to get Right We can do this Right, we can build buildings that are accessible if we want to right if we want to We can do this, but The harder thing to change is making it okay to admit that you have a disability, right? The statistic that I shared that dr. Spinner published about 1.2 percent of people reporting a disability I don't believe that that 1.2 percent of people with the disability those are the people that reported it and there's a number of people that don't report it because There is such a strong negative stigma that's associated with disability Anyway, we can do that This is rory. I'd like to jump in if I can And This has been a great discussion What is your what are your thoughts about peer review and science? Um, you know, I think they tell you about nothing about us about us without us in the disability community But I would think that science is an area where actually almost everything is about us without us And I don't think You know if we take a page out of the book for women at least at NIH they They haven't achieved. I don't think what they deserve But at least they've made their voice heard within the leadership and I don't think we have So I'd like to see what you think about Like as part of my thought too is you can't really become a scientist unless you can get a grant and maintain grass I guess uh my Uh thought on this topic is that um Yeah, I think we're still in the infancy of thinking of how do we accommodate A student with disabilities and how do we make sure we are our uh compliant and and this is the group that we need to uh nurture and uh Try to include but um, yeah, we're still have a lot ways to you know reach the professors that are we want to be Have with disabilities and the department heads and uh, so right now We are just looking at this is a group that needs assistance more charity so I think we establish long ways to incorporate that into STEM careers and uh, yeah as a person with disability Being a student with disability is horrible But once I could get my own students and my own grants I could have them do all the things I always wanted to do as a student and uh It was great and it's much nicer to be on this end of the spectrum as a professor with the disability than those Than trying to struggle struggle to get to this position And that's unfortunately The case is now and when we get to Medicine which we aren't really talked too much about but there's core competencies That really make it impossible for a lot of people to ever even get into medical school When we have tons of examples of very successful physicians with disabilities But they sustain the disabilities after they reached got that md or dvm or whatever and they figured okay They go to radiology or i'll be psychiatry or they found their niche but A lot of the students are afforded those opportunities unfortunately to get to an area of success it's a struggle to long road to home and uh Yeah, it's Still i'm glad not to have to go through that again Um, this is bonnie. Yeah, you know, I want to um, thank you Before you go, um, I think nils have something to say my apologies nils. I didn't see her Actually go ahead. Sorry no, I'm Still digesting when I was gonna say so Apologies, I don't see hands well on zoom um So thanks Teresa for talking about the the study we published And you are exactly right. We believe to the that data of the percentage of nh funded researchers with disabilities isn't under reporting. Um, and that's you know part of I appreciate you making that point, but that's exactly what we need to change um, and um worry to your point peer review, I I still struggle with it admittedly, you know as a Disabled researcher who studies disability equity. I can't even I've lost count of the number of times I've been told either in journal or grant reviews that I'm biased Because I am studying disability inequities and I myself have a disability And I just want you to think about what that means Right, it means that one that someone without a disability is not biased No, that's wrong Think about applying that to another group I don't think we would do that. I hope we wouldn't do that right now Right, that has absolutely prevented me I'm getting grants I'm getting manuscripts accepted in journals And I'm sure it will continue And you know, certainly I'm not going to pretend my science is always spot-on or perfect, right? There's I don't want to pretend that But I absolutely as do many of my colleagues and I'm sure many people on this call contend with those real issues In peer review. I am public about my disability, right? I'm not hiding it from anyone I align with what Theresa talked about, you know, disability pride. I have no shame. I write about it in my biosketch Um, so study section knows um Yeah, I think it's it's a concern It's an issue I have been told that I would have been invited to give a talk But there was concern that I couldn't travel independently The list goes on and on and this stacks up and adds up over time and does have a net impact on an individual's career trajectory Opportunities for promotion. I've certainly felt that Right, this is real, but we don't talk about this We don't Think about this in our institutions at funding agencies of how to support the unique barriers to researchers with disabilities And I think this translates and I just want to elevate, you know We're talking a lot about sensory and physical disabilities, but it's people who have Chronic conditions who are we don't compromise people with mental illness all included in this space and one until we can get more Researchers more faculty with disabilities who at least are willing to be open We're going to continue to perpetuate these gaps because the students don't have mentors right and we I I acutely feel that um and I think that's that's something we've got to think about both sides of this equation the learners and the mentors and the leaders And uh, I just think it's an urgent issue. So rory, I appreciate you elevating this. This is I think an important dimension Nils, are you ready? Have you fully digested your your thoughts? Well, it's changed a lot quite a bit. Bonnie. Thank you. That was I Yeah, well, it's fairly very moving and I I am personally not experienced that I guess um, at least from the peer review side Uh, and I feel kind of ignorant now. Um I've actually had some fairly positive experiences through the national science foundation uh with the disability they um uh There's a group there that uh has been I think very proactive about bringing people with disabilities and Ted Conway brand the uh, what was called the guard program general and age related disability research engineering Uh, uh, yeah, we have messed up now. It's their uh, disability and uh, And uh, I think that they actually work very proactively to bring somebody with the disability onto the panels Uh, so that they have that perspective um, my experience there was always very positive and and you know, and as an opportunity to In a sense as well guard that not no pun intended. Um That those fundings are actually being used for the intended purpose of disability related research often you would get people with more biomedical research that we're kind of looking at that because it's a smaller program But to say, you know, well that might be better for the larger group, whereas this is much more of a focused um opportunity for disability specific work um Other sides of things, uh, I'm sorry my voice. I gotta get some more here. Um The supplemental funds and I think that that's a great way for people with disabilities or researchers or To incorporate students with disabilities and research is to you know, if there is accommodations needed um travel companions for conferences Those are there is funding available for that and I think it also Not only does it benefit the individuals who will be utilizing that funding, but it also lets the funding agency know That this is a need and that there are people out there Who are utilizing this and we are growing our population I'll end there Thank you so much Nils um We have some amazing questions coming from the audience um one question is What are your thoughts on the impact of learning for students with disabilities? Especially now relating to lab activities moving to a more remote environment How do you feel that transition has specifically impacted students with disabilities? Yeah, Teresa, that's a great question. So I've been teaching the science labs um for several years now and um switched um from I was fully teaching fully in person before the pandemic and I now teach Fully online. I've been teaching both asynchronous as well as synchronous labs. Um I uh, I think that um Virtual learning has You know pros and cons um There, you know, um a lot sometimes people with disabilities have difficulties um, you know traveling and getting to campus and so Having a virtual option is great because It allows access to some people who otherwise wouldn't Be able to participate in a lab course However, it's important when doing things online that it's accessible for people you know with you know visual or Hearing disabilities that there's captioning and you know videos or And you know image descriptions that documents are accessible So there's a You know, it's important to make sure that online learning is accessible for everybody One of the things that I did in the lab on microbiology lab that I was teaching With some of my colleagues is that we put together a lab kit that we sent home Or that we shipped to students so that they could perform experiments at home um And you know those kinds of you know thinking outside the box are things that we can do so I think that there's a lot that we can learn from the pandemic A lot of people from the disability community have been asking for Abilities to work remotely For a long time and the pandemic has shown us that that is a very real possibility In fact, a lot of companies are shifting a lot of their workforce to working from home And I think that we can also provide that sort of access through learning as well But making sure that it's accessible Absolutely. Yeah and no I think you meant Bonnie Oh, yeah, or Bonnie. Yeah Bonnie go ahead. Hi. Yeah. Thank you. Um I think that It has you know, I echo what Teresa has said But I also want to add that it's opened opportunities for the faculty to teach courses to faculty with disabilities And that's been critical as well as faculty in lots of situations who are providing care for children or other family members Um, and I think there's been a lot of discussion in the disability community in higher education, but in other spaces um That we we need to hold tight to these gains that we've gotten in this experience during the pandemic of remote and virtual learning and work there's real fear that we may completely move back to um a model that excludes this option and for those that had Access that they didn't have before and really benefited from this Um, that would be a huge mistake, right? A big miss that would close a door that was opened And I just want to urge everyone in the audience who may be in opportunities to think about these decisions to think carefully, right to As we move forward, hopefully at some point through the pandemic to recognize that You know, this has been an interesting natural experiment in lots of ways But there have been some positives and this is A positive I think for lots of people in the disability community as Theresa outlined as long as accessibility is prioritized And to go back to a model where this no longer exists We'll go back to a situation of exclusion I I do see the definitely the benefit of the online versus in person The work in my lab is is much more of a physical kind of thing With the pandemic we were able to have a smaller group and you know, we sort of divided into smaller groups so that it was Kind of fit the university policy of no more than six in a certain size space But we could also videotape things and and have You know visual experiments and and that certainly only helps the component of the population We did not in my current situation Have a need for like a closed captioning or a script of audio But that certainly could be something that could be done as well. I think And as Bonnie said this, you know, the hybrid approach or the virtual environments Really do provide I think You know for me as a faculty member with a disability An opportunity to you know, if I'm not feeling well or if I've got Three different things going on That I can't get across campus to the classroom or if it's a really bad weather day that I don't want to sit out The cold wait for a bus or take the risk of driving on my own I can zoom in and then we can have our lecture and Maybe not the lab activity, but at least certainly the communication and maybe pursue other options You know there other we did a workshop with A larger group this earlier last year and worked with some of the assistant technology providers and you know, they've really stressed the benefit of having A option for somebody who may need to recline every 20 minutes That you can't necessarily do that very easily in the office or if you you know You don't want to have the ability to I mean have a meeting like we're having right now This would not necessarily be possible Uh to the extent and that we've have 200 people all congregate and you know, Washington or Kansas City or something like that So this benefit I think well, you know, it does certainly Make it a lot easier for me And I'm sure for others who are you know participating can see the advantages and We did hear locally that you know a group of engineers and one of the aircraft manufacturing companies The manager is saying that they're more productive Now that they're working at home and um, so hopefully companies will see the value of it as well and uh work to maintain it Great. Yeah, and Theresa you got a comment I just wanted to kind of plug in that in my talk and mention being able to access Meetings scientific meetings virtually um has been amazing. Um, and for people who with disabilities who have difficulties traveling um Allowing for that to be an option to be able to participate virtually have access to you know posters and presentations and You know panel discussions is It was is great. I mean, um, and I think that you know, I would hate Like, uh, Bonnie has said I would hate to see these kinds of Opportunities disappear when we you know go back to quote unquote normal Thank you so much, Theresa, and I just wanted to add to that as far as deaf students who have been learning remotely Um, we've actually seen a decrease and the number of students enrolling in our lab courses Um, you know, we'll see everyone, you know as far as which has kind of been interesting because in zoom We'll have like six students, you know, and we can actually see each other more clearly in that kind of a way Um, so we've just been trying to navigate, you know doing zoom And sending the lab links, you know to students You know decreasing the size of our classes Has really been an accommodation to be able to help students learn virtually to just have less visual stimulation going on And then for virtual meetings, we actually myself I actually prefer the virtual meetings because it's very fine Hard to find interpreters who specialize in the field of STEM But now with virtual options that opens it up to any interpreter in the entire country So now I can have an interpreter who specializes in the field of STEM who might be in another state But is able to join virtually and provide that You know more technical support. Um, and is knowledgeable of our field Um, and we're also, you know able to have more of those water cooler conversations that I can participate in in the chat and things like that that I just I I'm not normally privy to an in-person conversations or with in-person conferences So, um, yeah, I just wanted to add that I did want to go ahead and add one more question for the audience Which is what is your thoughts on the inclusion of data? Accessibility of accessibility of data. Yeah, please go ahead. I think brad was first. Go ahead brah. I'm sorry Yeah, I think that's a great question because we're seeing data as being so integral and um, how we, um, discuss findings how we Interpret findings, uh, you know data sciences the term was really not a thing Not too long ago. And so now everything is really a lot of data science and Yeah, I I I think how we interpret data How we captured data It really really need to look at that Um, I made a comment that we're been so Visual-centric in our science data for so long that how much are we missing because we're just looking at, um data in terms of collection, uh from a visual aspect um modality Uh, but then of course when it comes to access, how do we present that data? And, uh, I don't know if I have great answers to those solutions um, but We definitely need to reevaluate that note taking has long been a problem with a lot of people with disabilities And uh, how do we collect that data? I think there's new technologies out there to allow us to collect it in digital forms And process it in different ways. And so I I find that very exciting Um, you know in the classroom you can record the classroom Uh conversations, but uh, yeah, I see that really as a A new frontier in accessibility is how do we Get information Yes, go ahead Bonnie Yeah, this is Bonnie. Thank you as um someone with a visual disability and an epidemiology Just who thinks about data far too much. This is a great question. So thank you for whoever asked it um Data accessibility is a pervasive problem and it's not just about researchers and trainees I think it's a concern for the general public and I think that's been played out during the pandemic um, you know As I work with students and through my own career It's The software to analyze data that isn't always accessible right the tools The data collection components and tools aren't always accessible And think about what that means both for the researchers with disabilities And the inclusion of people and collecting data from people with disabilities um, who may be preferentially excluded then and then um as brad said then when you're sharing data it tends to be a visual exercise and um You can miss a lot of information when that's not made accessible with alt text and universal design practices um journals do not adopt this mostly and that's a challenge for Folks like me who have a visual disability and many other types of disabilities in Getting content that's critical again for your career success and understanding your field But I also argue that it's critical for our job as researchers to work with the public and you know our our goal shouldn't just be to publish and scientific articles and speak at conferences but to sort of go beyond that and have impact on the world um, I believe in removing barriers To data to remove data gatekeeping and accessibility is critical to that Um, so, you know in the pandemic there was a lot of information and continues to be coming out very fast You know think of the curves the the pandemic curves They're not always very accessible yet people use those to make decisions personal and family and you know otherwise and if you don't have that content or that information It's it's your kind of left behind. It's a challenge So I think this idea of again universal design inclusion and accessibility has to be everywhere And data really is critical Data is is part of this component both for the researcher side, but also for the general public Wow, bonnie. That is very well said and it's a very interesting perspective because We talk in my perspective. I think more about the audio portions of it and software translations from audio to visual So it's interesting to hear about your perspective for the opposite talking about how to make visual things more audio accessible And showing data in different ways so that we can learn something new Um, for example, if something listens to something someone listens to something and then maybe they see something differently Where is the disconnect there as the disconnect in the audio information or the visual information? And so that's something that we can take advantage of So We have six minutes remaining. So I will ask one final question And then pull it up here Okay, so one of the chat questions is it possible to speak to how we can have more students involved Students with disabilities Involved with science and lab careers Nels Yeah, thank you. Um There's let me get rid of the hand here. Um Yeah, there have been several programs over the years that have worked specifically on this Uh triple as had the entry point Um, which was actually recruiting people with disabilities in high school And bringing them through the sort of the stem pipeline and and really focusing on Internships in government agencies. So nasa for instance was one. Um, I actually learned about it as a grad student. I somehow Missed the boat Seemed to do that a lot too much, but uh, it was a great opportunity I think for people for the government organizations to really channel Uh, our develop opportunities and to work with students with disabilities to show Uh opportunity Potential placement and then, you know, also to see People move into those jobs. We would sort of create this occur a reoccurring system Um, there's I think a lot of funding through the national science foundation Um, the includes grants the advance grants Um, so I'm happy to see that and I'd like to see more. Well, stop there Great and Teresa will go ahead and have you close out our comments and then we'll have our final wrap up for today Yeah, um Wow, that's a big load of carry down. Um, I guess, um Um What I like mentorship programs are really great Um, because they can connect people uh students with disabilities To mentors with disabilities who have, you know, maybe experience the same thing or somebody to reach out and connect with if you're, you know Encountering some barrier that you're struggling with I think looking back on my career It would have been really helpful if I had a mentor that Was disabled and that I could receive support um from that end. Um, I'm, you know, uh Popeye and the scholarships and some mentorship program. Um, and one of the things I've learned Um through that program is how important it is to have many mentors Not just a research mentor, but also somebody, you know, that maybe can relate to one of your identities that you hold um But another thing I want to point out is that this work Shouldn't just rest on the shoulders of people with disabilities Like you shouldn't just wait for somebody with a disability to start a mentorship program. Um, you know learn about, you know opportunities or, you know, uh People who don't have disabilities and faculty and um, you know, pis like Bring awareness Um to disability to your campus. Just talking about it is huge. Um, because Like it makes you not feel like Nobody notices that you're disabled. I mean, there were never conversations Throughout my career about disability and just Everybody, you know Pay attention to disability and included in your conversation Thank you, Teresa I am afraid we have to end our conversation And wow, what an excellent conversation today touching on so many different topics Covering lab accessibility inclusion in an environment and not just in the STEM career fields, but in a broader sense The benefits of disabilities to the STEM workplace and also how we can provide Good virtual experiences for students with disabilities and lastly How we need to encourage more students to get into STEM Fields so that we can develop more of those mentorship programs because many of us are now leading those programs because of our experience so This is the second of five conversations in this series So our next conversation Will take place on thursday, february 10 From 10 30 a.m to noon And we'll focus specifically on recommendations to improve accessibility and inclusion in the context of field work And as a researcher myself and a field worker myself I'm very much eager to be a part of that conversation and to um For that conversation to take place. So thank you all for joining us and more information about our next series will be posted on the series website on slido And this webcast again will be recorded and posted on slido as well That holds true for the remainder of our series as well. Those Serious will be recorded for your pleasure viewing at a later time if necessary. So thank you again for The wonderful conversation from you guys as panelists and for everybody that was able to join us today. Thank you so much All clear. Thanks Great work folks. Excellent conversation today