 It's still the breakfast on Plus TV Africa and right now we're going to be talking about COP28 and we're focusing on Nigeria's role at the COP28 Climate Change Conference. We are glad to have with us here Mr. Adeyum Lawal, MD, Square Lines Limited and Environmental Advocate. Good morning and welcome to the program. Good morning. Good morning, sir. Thank you for having me here. Well, everybody's been talking about this COP28 as an opportunity that Nigeria and in fact the entire world to seize this opportunity to address the issues that are bedrevelling us as regards the climate change that we're talking about. So why is it sounding so serious at this moment? Well, if it could sound more serious it would have been better because we're really in dire need of changing our ways because the environment has changed so much because of us. So we need to realize what we've done to the environment, come to the round table and agree quickly on what we need to start doing in the opposite direction to what we're doing so that we can stop the depletion in the ozone layer and stop the environment, the earth from warming up beyond what it needs to do. The earth should warm up but if it's going at a faster rate than it should be because of us then we need to do some other things to push it in the other direction. Okay, so what are these things that we're doing that are wrong? Well, our lifestyles, our industries emit a lot of CO2 and other greenhouse gases into the atmosphere that warms up the air, the atmosphere and when this is done we have droughts, de-certification and other environmental issues that comes up and makes life difficult for us that started it in the first case. So we need to redress down. Should we see industry should close down, no, we should just find better ways to impute in our processes what will not emit CO2 into the atmosphere at the rate that is emitting it, so at least we can have a better world to live in. Okay, so that takes me to protocols because I know there is gas flaring in protocols and as a result of that there is soot. So that's, I'm sure that is like one of the things that we're doing wrongly. So what can we do? What can companies and industries do to ensure that we're not going at a faster rate than we shouldn't be going? Now, we should check the processes for the production of fossil fuel because that's one of the biggest contributors of CO2 into the atmosphere. We need to also change in our own lifestyles to start depending more on renewable energy as against fossil fuel energy. So if the more we do that, of course those companies will have to diversify going into something else or find better ways to produce without emitting into the air. There's another option of even the CO2 produce if they can be collected and used as source of, I mean, impute in other industries to make other materials. Then instead of flaring it into the atmosphere, then those are one of the ways we could work on improving things. COP28 is in far away Dubai. What have you done about the people back home to educate them enough? I say this because in the last National Assembly, someone brought up the issue of electric cars and some of the legislators actually said Nigeria being a producer of oil should never even talk about it. So which means even the legislators need to be educated. So what have you done locally before you carried this advocacy to the COP28? Well, I don't think it's something that we have to do first before we have to do it simultaneously. As we are going global because we need to discuss with other countries, you cannot do it in isolation as a country. We also need to educate our people from top down on the need to change our lifestyles because we all love this planet that we've been living on and we do have another option to even go to. So as long as we don't have other options, we have to find a way of making the place continue to be habitable for us. So if we have senators, if we have members, if we have anybody in government that is yet to be as educated as possible as required on this planet, that means we need to increase because we are the ones that are supposed to educate the people. So the average challenges with the level of education, they need to be educated also because the truth is whether you are aware or not, the climate is changing. Whether you've observed it, whether you want to live in denial or not, it's changing. So we need to do what will reverse the rate of change in the environment. Can that be reversed? Well, the rate of increase can be reversed, the rate of increase. Not that it's not as if you go back to but we can work towards net zero. Net zero means the rate of emission and the rate at which you can capture the already existing carbon dioxide from the atmosphere comes to the same. So you can say effectively you've not emitted because what you emitted you also captured. That's good that the world is yet to reach because we are having a lot of talk but we are back up with sufficient action to get what we need to get to. Yeah, because at the world stage it seems to be easy. You show your intellectual prowess by arguing for and Nigeria will also go there. But I remember a time when crossover forest or so was like one of the largest in the world and the world was focusing attention there because we need the trees to capture the carbon dioxide and the oxygen and all that. But I didn't see any deliberate policy, anything that will make that forest not to be depleted. So I'm worried about we go into the world stage and saying what we need to say and back home we're still doing what we are not supposed to do. It worries me that maybe we didn't tidy our home well before we went out. Well unlike in time past and 2021 there was a legislation that was brought on by the government for climate change as a standalone legislation. In fact Nigeria is the first in West Africa to do that. So that's where to start for because we need government to lead giving guidelines, the policies on what to do and what not. Even part of the legislation is that companies that have 50 employees and above will need to appoint a climate change officer that will do report at certain times. Now what is left? Now I haven't done that because that's where to start from. Guidelines and policies to direct where we are. What is left is now the implementation of that policy so that at least we can get the needed benefits from. We've set NDCs, National League Determined Contributions, it looks nice and I love it. But if we don't start implementing then they will just remain on paper where they don't need to be in our lives. So that's what we need to do then. And the issue of deforestation, what do we do? We need to reforest. It's simple. Point more trees. Make it a thing of our life. Make it like almost compulsory that you must have trees in your house. There are trees that are indigenous to the area, plant those trees because they will be able to sequester CO2 from the atmosphere and keep them. Because we don't leave them there if they can be kept in. We're only planting and cutting at the same time. It doesn't make any sense because now when you go to Bokee for instance, that's where the forest in Cross River is, that stretch, when you go there now, people are cutting the trees to make a living, firewood, charcoal, and then timber. Paper is available for trees. Yes, paper and all that. So if there are no alternatives to these, they will keep cutting the trees. If you plant one and you cut a tree that has been there for 50 years and you plant one, it will take another 50 years before it can grow to that point. So deforestation will continue unless there are alternatives. How are you addressing with your advocacy those things that will serve as alternatives to the reasons why people are depleting the forest? Yeah, that's one of the reasons for renewable energy. That's one of the reasons for it. So that at least as you are cutting and using what we've been used to, which is the fossil fuel energy source, we can go into solar, wind energy. There are different ways to get the required, it's energy we're trying to get. So if we can get it from other sources and find ways of storing it, because part of the shortcomings of renewable energy is the ability to stop and have it consistently over a stretch of time so that you don't have power in the afternoon and in the night when there is no power. But if you have very good storage facilities, you can have that power around the clock, though you don't have some around the clock. So those are ways we're doing but you see the first thing to do is to change the mindset of the people that this can be done. This can be done and these are the steps we need to take. So we need that higher, high-tend advocacy on the need to change our lifestyles in a way that our atmosphere and our climate and even the act that we so much love remains what it needs to be for us. So that we don't destroy where we're living because we don't have somewhere else to go to. So I know that in some countries there are companies that when you buy something from them, so they have these policies, when you buy something in the grocery tree, you know, from whatever proceeds they make, shouldn't that be one of the policies we should have in Nigeria that, OK, companies, it could be part of your CSR, your corporate service responsibility, corporate society responsibility that, you know, for every money you make, the same way you ask them to pay tax, you can also tell them, OK, they should be able to grow some trees with the proceeds that they get. Yeah, that's part of the things that need to be done. It's a holistic approach. It's not, there's no one size fits all with what we need to do to work against the climate change. The companies will need to be also incentivized so that, you know, when you are doing the right thing, OK, you get carbon credits for what you've done, you know, so, and if you are planting trees, you get carbon credits, so we know, so it affects your, the payment of your tax, you know, so you are encouraging those that are on the right path and those that are yet to move on that path. Then you describe them from going in the direction they used to go. So, because it's not going to be an easy tax. But it's something that can be achieved. So we will have to push for it. So I just hope government remains at the policy level to make the place comfortable for people to do what they actually need to do up because we've seen one or two governors who said they voted billions of Naira for planting of trees and we were just wondering where did that money go to? You won't find the trees. If you find the trees, maybe it's a thousand trees and that is the end. So let them not use public funds to do what they say they are doing and not not doing by the way. But your challenges, there are challenges that some of this country, some of the states, some of these people have advanced why they are not able to do what they're supposed to do at this moment that you intend to address at the COP 28. What are some of these? Well, the number one challenge is the lack of political will to do what it takes for everybody. So that we go beyond just coming to the round table since 2015. We are now COP 28 and just talking. Beyond the top, what do we do? Are you thinking of sanctions? Well, if we have to, but I just don't want to use the word sanctions. If we have to discuss, so now looking like it's a penalty and you know, so if we have to describe you from going along the path, then what do we need to do? But the moment you stop going along that path, we need to encourage you also so that you can see benefits in not going along this path, but going along this path. So it has to be like a carrot and stick approach. You know, you put them in the back when they are doing the right thing, when they are doing wrong, I say, I think you should do it a bit better than that. So, so for instance, there are countries right now that in volcanic rocks, as bad as volcanoes, they are able to sequester CO2 and store it for ever. So what they are doing is that they have like massive vacuum canals that will suck out the air, take out the CO2, release the good oxygen, then take down that CO2 two kilometers deep into the ground. And the CO2 remains permanently sequestered in there. But at what rate can we do that? The biggest that I know of is can take 4,000 tons of CO2. But we are in 1836,000, 36 billion tons per annum. So you see, it's still. The margin is quite. So we are going in the right direction. So if we show this and that company that did that, we give them carbon credit for doing this and, you know, benefits so that they can know that, OK, this is actually profitable. When you see more, then another thing we need to do is to reuse items more as against producing new ones because the process of producing from scratch releases more CO2. That way, I guess we're using what has been produced already. So it's a whole lot of things. The government needs to put policy guidelines in place with the people and institutions we need to change their ways to. And so I know you're an environmentalist. Do you have anything talking about plastic and waste and all of that? Or is this solely on CO2 and the climate change? No, it's holistic. It's holistic. If you drop waste in the in the drains and the plastics and the pep bottles end up in the seas. Yes, in the oceans. And clean the aquatic organisms if done out to the atmosphere. So we need to. That's part of what I said by changing our lives there. At the point of even generating the waste, sort your waste. Yes. Put the pep bottles separately. Put those that are degraded. Paper, yeah. Yes, so so we, of course, and there are avenues of even being encouraged in that line. So if you can sort the pep bottles, you at the point you have sufficient, you can weigh them, they bite off you so they can reuse them for some other things instead of throwing them in the drain and they end up in the oceans and cause trouble for our quality life. So it's is holistic. It's not one one way approach. We have to approach everything at the same time because the climate is changing and we get this work together. If we get beyond the two degrees increase by the end of the century. OK, everybody has to do what they can, where they stand. So Nigeria has to do what it can, where it is. We're talking about the role of Nigeria in all of this climate change. What are those particular peculiar challenges that Nigeria needs to address, you know, beyond going to COP 28? I'm really concerned about home. Well, we are in beta test and say we are doing it in Nigeria, so you copy as well. OK, well, first in Nigeria, as a body must do is what they've done to have policy policies in place. That's one. The next thing is now work on the implementation of that policy in a non-biased manner, not that you work with you, implementing certain ways here and not exactly this. Who are the vanguards of this working order? It still has to be the government in a session in collaboration with civil society and every stick older, which is that which is what they were presented. For instance, the government formed a National Council on Climate Change and the president is the head. So that shows you that as a government, they are taking this seriously. Even the vice president created and exactly another committee on for those that are going so that before we go to COP 28, let us put our house in order. What are our agenda? What do we intend to get out from COP 28? Not just to go and just feel the seat and come back. But what are the things that we want to bring back to the people that we got this and this and this and this from COP 28? So that's a good step. But I will keep emphasizing the side of implementation. For instance, as I said earlier, that if organizations have 50 and above, they will need to have a climate change officer. So the organization also needs to do that. And we need to be sincere for other organizations that are non-government organizations. So OK, all right, like Rotary and others. So the plan trees continually, every quarter, every month, every week, continue to do it. So you form LCDs. What are we doing in our own area? Are we allowing people to dump waste anyhow in our own area? Or are we waiting for government to come from the state capital to come and clear our waste and drain for us? We need everyone has to be on the same page for us. So we need the government leading from the front. That's that's the critical point. Once they leave from the front, as they ought to, then it's easier to let me not use the word easier to be less challenging to follow. So how are you going about sensitization? It's being on programs like this, going to the communities, speaking to people on a one-on-one basis, making them see the reason. They are not just saying, don't burn the game. They are giving them the reason not to. OK, if we are saying I shouldn't do this again, what is the alternative? At least you are not going to tell me to just sleep and not do anything because you said I shouldn't cut trees again. What can I do if I'm not cutting trees again? So so those are the things that will go into communities and go to several areas to educate the people on the need to change. Funny question, funny question. This officer that should be employed in every organization. Well, that's part of the cost of running your organization. So if I have 50 staff and I'm struggling to pay, I will hire one more. No, no, no, you don't have to hire one more. You just need to appoint one of them. I'll sign one of them. Ask the climate change officer that will be reporting back to the government and to the National Health Council on climate change on what you are doing. It doesn't have to be a climate change officer. So that person needs to be sure of all the policies and be sincere on what they are doing as an institution, as an organization, because you need to report so that the data we are getting. If you chose me from plus TV, I would not tell them that we are emitting so much gas into them. The sincerity part is what I'm doing. Oh, but we need it. Because that's why I said initially that I will not use what sanctions are. I would rather say let's discourage it, because if we start using sanctions, we are throwing punitive words all over the place. People will just start working around the policies. And if we discourage it, we don't encourage it to continue, but when we do the right thing, we will get benefits from doing the right thing. I think that's where we have to leave it. It's challenging, but we have to do it. We have to do it, because we love this world. We don't want to be without it. We can't even be without it. We don't have an option. Even the government, we want to go to. Nobody wants to die, but you just want to go to it. OK, we'll be speaking with Mr. Deymu Lawal. He's been talking to us on the role of Nigeria at the COP28 climate change. And I hear that today is your birthday. Yeah, happy birthday to you. We wish you many, many more years of prosperity and well-being. In a clean environment. Yes, in a very clean environment. That would be the best opportunity. All right, ladies and gentlemen, this is where we wrap it up on the show this morning. It was a great being with you. We hope to rejoin with you tomorrow for another edition. Until then, my name is Nyam Gul Akkad. My name is Vermeh Polson. Have a good day.