 Welcome back into the original gangsters podcast. I am your co-host Scott Bernstein along with my partner in crime and co-conspirator The doctor Jimmy Buccellato. Hi everyone. Hey now just want to remind everyone Please subscribe to our new video channel on YouTube at gangster podcast and please follow us on Facebook Instagram Twitter like us. Please spread the word. Thank you this week. We are going to deep dive the gangster backstory of Sean Puff Daddy Combs there is a Narrative there that has been Discussed and I think this the surface has been scratched people that know the history of puffy Know that his father was a drug dealer who was slain in Harlem in the 1970s, but beyond that I don't think that story's ever really been colored up Puffy Combs, you know the the quintessential hip-hop mogul impresario Such a game-changer in so many different phases of life was was the the pioneer for mainstream music going from Pop to rap and you know hip-hop that you know stays with us today. He started it, you know 25 years ago fashion just pop culture celebrity Someone that at his peak could really tap Anyone he wanted to become a star you saw it with Jodesy Mary J. Blige notorious B. I. G. Mace Just was very transformative We've discussed in the past on this show about puffy's ties to modern-day organized crime We can go into that a little bit as well Black mafia family Big Meach and those guys were pretty integral in the rise of bad boy records again something I don't think a lot of people knew until we exposed it and we we actually had a IRS agent on who without confirming it told us for all intents and purposes that the IRS had heard that that bad boy records was was started with a Investment from Big Meach and the Black Mafia family but Let's go back to the 1970s to the Superfly era The Harlem drug trade People that that you know study the underworld or people that are just you know familiar with it from a pop culture standpoint Watching movies. I'm sure they know all about Frank Lucas the main character an American gangster Nikki Barnes mr. Untouchable Who was you know, probably the most well-known and iconic african african-american drug boss of the 1970s? but before the rise of Lucas and Barnes There was a drug kingpin that ran Harlem who they called Jesus Christ Great nickname and my it reminds me of the movie into deep with Omar apps and LL Cool J where LL Cool J was playing a drug boss named God and God was actually another it was a true story the movie into deep. They they The storyline takes place in Cincinnati, but in real life. God was a drug dealer in Boston, but What was that movie? I don't even remember into deep came out. I think in 99 or 2000. Was that a good soundtrack? I loved it Jermaine Dupri Stanley Tucci was in it Nealong was in it Omar apps plays the undercover Colour look up the sound that infiltrates the LL Cool J's drug operation and again It was based on a true story out of Boston. They just changed the Storyline to Cincinnati for the film of those movies had really good soundtracks back then because they would have like Exclusive tracks that work on some of them at least weren't on like the standard release I think Jermaine Dupri did the soundtrack and then Jermaine Dupri's in the film. That's cool. So Jesus Christ was the biggest drug Lord in Harlem from the time Bumpy Johnson died in 1968-69 until about 1973 when the Jesus Christ was real name was Willie Abraham a lot of people just called him JC but JC was short for Jesus Christ and He ran Harlem for about three four years and his top lieutenant or one of his top lieutenants was pretty Melvin combs and pretty Melvin was puff daddy's father and He Was a pretty big deal. I didn't realize that I thought that He was a minor league player that got killed in You know a drug deal gone bad I didn't realize the Impact or imprint that he had made in the years before I didn't realize who he was running with and The magnitude of the the organization that he was running with and how high he had climbed in that organization, which was based out of a Bar and nightclub in Harlem called the gold tavern or the gold sorry the gold lounge Which was owned by Willie Abraham. Yeah, I mean that I always was under the impression that his father was Associated with some Harlem drug dealers, but as you've pointed out in private conversations in the 1970s That's not saying much. I mean who who wasn't a drug dealer in Harlem At least associated with or like connected to somehow so that I didn't assess necessarily appreciate that he actually was Pushing a lot of weight and he was a significant dude. Yeah, he wasn't just some low-life street figure that dabbled in Dime bags and hand-to-hand Transactions this was the guy that was moving major weight for a major major player and was also that Drug dealer meaning Willie Abraham a pretty will a pretty Melvin combs acted as Abraham's go-between for both Frank Lucas and Nikki Barnes in the early days of both of their respective organizations and there's actually an interesting Part of the a mr. Untouchable Documentary where I think it's in this. I think it's in the special features is either the mr. Untouchable documentary or the Bonus features on the American gangster DVD, but there was a phone conversation between Nikki Barnes and Frank Lucas discussing the you know their Ascent in certain entertainment Circles and how you know, they had they were just known in Harlem at a certain point And now they were known around you know around the world because of the movies and the the the rap songs and whatnot and in that conversation which took place in the mid-2000s which was Relatively early on in in Puffy. I mean Puffy was a big deal. I mean a really big deal at that point but it was still 15 20 years ago and I forgot which one of them brings it up, but either Nikki or Frank Lucas says hey, you know You see Puffy combs on all these music videos and on all these red carpets like remember Melvin and they're both like Oh, yeah, Melvin was a great guy and they start talking about Puffy's dad Which maybe was the first inclination for me that that Melvin combs was bigger than a small deal. I've Mr. Untouchable documentary, I don't think I've ever seen that is that yes, it's from the Rockefeller group Dame Dash and Jay-Z. I'll have to check that out came out in the late 2000s. I mean, I've seen the American gangsters episode from BET on all the mr. Untouchable That's one of the best documentary series. Yeah in my opinion by the way, but I'm gonna have to look that up, but I have the I have them such a nerd I have the American gangster film DVD like triple disc set. Yeah has all that so do I bonus footage and on an aside I'm a giant giant Jay-Z fan and I think his American gangster inspired Record called American gangster, which is not an official soundtrack to the film, but is kind of a companion piece I think you know for me That could be my maybe second or third favorite Jay-Z album. I just I love all the songs on on his American gangster Record, but I digress So let's just give a little bit. I can't give props to Jay-Z because I'm too pock You're too west coast. I'm still holding. I mean to pock is my all-time favorite. I'm just kidding But uh, you know, I put Jay-Z in that to pock and biggie cat Jay-Z's he's dope. He's good. I mean, I don't I don't love East Coast tip-hop as much as I do West Coast But he's obviously and to me Jay-Z was an acquired taste for me I mean when Jay-Z first came out, I did not like him. Yeah, I thought his style was his his rapping style was a little bit awkward to me But he made that rapping style mainstream. It's not awkward anymore. No, I like I like of all those guys I probably I like nozz a lot, but and I love Wu-Tang, but I don't really consider Wu-Tang in that same They were a little different, but you know, I'm a death row records guy. So pretty Melvin Combs got arrested in November of 1971 with five pounds of uncut China white heroin and $50,000 in cash and In the subsequent weeks and months before he was murdered there were a series of federal raids and arrests and traffic stops where people were getting caught with dope and Businesses were being raided apartments were being raided and The belief of the Abraham organization was that Melvin Combs had flipped and turned government informant. I Know puffy has been pretty adamant when he discusses it saying that that was not the case that his dad just was murdered in a drug deal gone wrong But everything that I've heard in documents I've read People that I've talked to that that worked these cases in the 70s and we're about to speak to one the DEA founding father Frank Panessa who we're about to jump on a call with and discuss his his Employment working undercover in the Harlem drug trade of the 1970s and he specifically worked pretty Melvin Combs and Willie Abraham but He he was murdered Melvin Combs was murdered in February of Or sorry January 26 1972 was about two months after he was arrested. I Don't know for sure if that arrest was made public or not But in the months after Pretty Melvin Combs was killed the entire Abraham organization was indicted and went down But also it's in your reporting if you want we could ask Frank about it But it's just kind of interesting to just throw out there now that not only was Combs Interacting with Barnes and Lucas who were big-timers, but he was he was interacting with some Italian guys Because an Ostra guys some guys that maybe at the time were not major players Right, but would become major players one of them being Benji Castelazzo Who is right now under indictment for being the underboss of the Colombo crime family? Yeah Benji the claw and then you had Alphonse Fonze Cisca who I believe was a is a Gambino or was a Gambino capo that ran New Jersey So yeah, he was Again running in some a pretty fast crowd in terms of underworld figures pretty Melvin Combs was and if you you know Look at the picture of him. That's online. There's a couple photos of him online Very good-looking very dapper very fastidious in his appearance and you know Echoes what his son would would become the reputation his son would build and and we should tell everyone that Puffy was not yet three years old when his dad was murdered So he was two and a half. I Question, you know what? True memories he would have had at that age of pretty Melvin. Yeah, it's a tragic. I mean whatever his dad was doing It's still tragic for a son to grow up without a father like that but and Melvin was killed in Central Park he was Supposedly meeting someone On a corner around Central Park in in Manhattan For what he thought was gonna be a drug deal and someone came up to his car and unloaded their clip It reminds me of the his old man interacting with with you know dealing with the Italians it reminds me of Carlito, yeah, I run with pleasant pleasant guys connected That's my favorite scene of the Avenue crew. Go snatch a purse. Yeah, who do you run? Well, it says go snatch a purse But you know, I think that's another thing to point out before we bring on Frank Vanessa and this is something we've We've discussed but it it merits bringing up again is that in the 1970s Really in the drug trade across the country, but Harlem might have been you know one of the epicenters of that Having an Italian supply line Was a status symbol Yes, you know, it was something that show it was the same thing as buying a Mercedes or or having a diamond pinky ring or you know renting out The Apollo for a night or renting out a club for the night like they did. I mean it these guys live large and part of that was showing off who their gangland associates were and if you could say like with With nicky barns. I mean he was famously connected to Maddie Madonna Yeah Just like we just said a second ago was a guy that wasn't a big deal When barns was hooked up with them in the 70s, but would become a really big deal Would become the boss of the Lucchese crime family? Yeah, there's a currency I mean, I was even reading in Misha glennies book McMafia. It's a great book Probably 10 15 years old now, but even in europe he was talking about the eastern european gangsters russians and whatever some of them deal with the comorra and the and dragata and Cozono extra and even now they there's a currency That like you have a little bit more status if you're eastern european gangsters saying that you're connected So and a lot of it is just a mystique going back to the godfather films and you know and for any novices that are listening to us that subscribe to the belief that's been perpetrated in a lot of television film and even you know interviews with real life mobsters that the mob was somehow anti drugs or Opposed to narcotics trafficking. It's the exact opposite They might have given that lip service To you know throw the the cops off the scent But in reality the the american mafia was built on the shoulders of major narcotics traffickers Yeah, I think we actually talked about this in the lucchese episode. We dropped a few weeks ago that Yeah, they're they're definitely telling mafia guys that that prefer to stay out of junk as but it's an individual Decision and it has nothing to do with morals or ethics the way they make it seem like in the movie the godfather No, and um and and all these like guys that are getting involved in drugs make no mistake They're passing envelopes up the Change to the same guys who who are saying we don't want our guys dealing in junk They don't turn away any of those envelopes. Well, just you know three examples I'll throw out and then we'll we'll transition and bring frank penessa on and I know this is another a bit of a side but Jack toko the the long time Detroit mafia boss paul casolano The long time or not that long but ran the gambino family for 10 years And angelo bruno who ran the philadelphia mafia for 20 years All three of these guys were pretty loud proponents of that narrative of You know, we don't deal drugs and that's beneath us. Yeah, and all three of those guys We know we're taking Giant sums of money from their lieutenants that were narcotics traffickers. Yeah with with bruno It was long john martirano. Yeah with with jack toko It was jimmy quasarano. He loved martirano because he was a big earner. Yeah drugs. You make and jimmy money There was no one closer to jack toko and an advisory capacity Then jimmy q. I mean jimmy q was his Concealer when he first became boss then he went to prison and then was kind of his de facto Concealer until The early 2000s when he died and jimmy q was a global heroin trap not just a transnational He was a major. Yeah, I mean indicted in italy, you know, they couldn't they couldn't they tried him in What do you call it absentia and he was convicted but obviously the u.s wouldn't wouldn't deport him So yeah, I mean he wasn't just some there's no way that The leadership did not know that So it's uh, you know, it's just something that you should be aware of if you pay attention to stuff and You know, we we always try to draw the line between fact and fiction and mythology and reality So we're lucky to have A living legend calling in right now His name is frank panessa. He is the founding father of the drug enforcement agency. He was agent number one And this guy, uh, some people have lived a movie script But frank has lived 10 and frank, uh, thank you for coming on and joining us to give us some insight On your work with the federal bureau of narcotics and the dea into the Harlem drug trade Yes, good to be here And I just want to say that Frank panessa is an american patriot. He is an american hero This man spent 30 plus years Putting his life on the line Infiltrating different criminal organizations. He infiltrated all five Of the new york mafia families Uh, he infiltrated the harlem drug trade. He infiltrated the outlaw biker circle The cocaine cowboys down in miami He was sent to roam in the late 80s early 90s as the Official atteshe for the dea to work the big buschetta the tomas buschetta the maxim trials And then he at the end of his career, he ran the dea office in philadelphia his signature case Um, he's got so many of them But it's probably the signature of all the signatures is the pizza connection case biggest drug bust in american history where you had a sicilian an american mafiosi Transporting smuggling heroin from sicily to the east coast of the united states in pizza sauce jars And frank broke that whole thing open And took down that entire network. So frank. Thank you for your service. Thank you for joining us. Thank you So let's let's just dive in. So, uh, I think, you know, you had been working for a while. Um You know in in law enforcement in new york, but if i'm not mistaken The the harlem drug gangs were some of you know, your earliest Um groundbreaking work. Oh, yeah. Well, see what had happened. We were working on the italians in new york. We were working on Uh, uh, joseph and charlie dupal ermo Virgil elisi ralph patino These were made guys that were doing heavy heroin. You know, it was a billion dollar a year heroin business people didn't realize it but True us surveillance is we saw that they were meeting plaques in harlem And so we figured hey, I don't know if we're going to get into these guys, but let's start surveillance on all these these people that they're meeting so We started doing cases on nicky barns james lofton frank lucas robert stephanie goldfinger terrell steven monsanto frank matthews These were all people that we spotted on surveillance. We used to go to a small paradise lounge And sit outside and those were the days when they had the big pimple bills, you know, the big Cadillacs And they had like the lights on the sides of the of the roof and and they wore fur coats and fur hats Super very very ostentatious. Yeah, super fly and and you just namedropped us smalls paradise That was frank lucas's Bar club, right? Yes. Yeah, they referenced it We were seeing all these people we were getting information that there were heavy into heroin We put a wiretap on goldfinger at his house in the Bronx And we had a number of wiretaps and and we found that Jesus these people are doing heavy heroin They frank back up one sec. Let's let's let people know So frank lucas nicky barns are the two names that we talked about before you came on I see but Willie goldfinger terrell was another very compelling Underworld figure from that era Just based on the nickname and the reputation of Being fond of gold in every way shape and form Everything he had of shoes, right? Everything was gold plated And that was one of your big early collars Yeah, I remember putting the cuffs on them and and uh saying to them. Oh, I'm gonna get these gold plated That's something straight out of a lot of a television show or movie and when we when we make frank's television show Television show or film. We were definitely going to put that in there but do you have any recollections of Pretty melvin combs, which is kind of the basis of this episode. Oh, yeah No, I mean melvin combs was on our watch list too, you know, but as I say All the different groups in the task force Were working on, you know, different individuals like I was on the wiretap on goldfinger and I worked on James Lofton up in Neera shell and Robert Stephanie at the time was living in jersey, but he was always coming into Coming into the city And and we watched them out as as I said smalls paradise and there were a number of other clubs That they hung out in, you know, and uh, we we took down a lot of people getting information And what they were doing there was selling sound like you take people like frank louis lucas They were selling so much heroin that what they would do On a friday night, they round up about 10 to 15 women and bring them to an apartment house And all the women would have to strip naked And they'd work all weekend. They couldn't leave the apartment and they bagged all the heroin. They bagged all the nickel bags And uh, and with you know, but by the end of the weekend They were thousands of nickel bags and uh, they were paid good money to do that But then the next month they wouldn't go to the same apartment They'd get another apartment and do the same thing when when they use the um, the neighborhood junkies as like test dummies or like like guinea pigs where they would Let them try it what they would do and some of these guys would OD on it and they'd be like, all right We got to cut it a little bit more. Yeah. No. Well The infamous person that always did that was of course, uh, lilo galenti He was a roof was a bastard, but that's how you mafia boss. He would they yeah, they would he was head of the banano crime family and uh When a shipment came in they would grab a junkie and Give him a needle with You know, whatever was in in the in the kilo that came in and like if he died within a minute They said, oh, this is good stuff Geez, they didn't care for some ruthless individuals and that's what they did Well, even with even with the junkies you you take people like lucas and and and all those people if they thought Somebody was ratting on them or the person wasn't informant. They'd give them a hot shot You know where they die instantly they'd give them pure heroin a hot dose you have to remember in those days Heroin was really cut. I mean we would talk it about heroin only like 15 pure on the street back in those days Most of it was we used to say that people are getting a sugar high because they cut it with manai and they cut it with quinine and things like that and uh Now today, I I think it comes out god knows now it's fat now it lays with fentanyl Now with fentanyl you die from it, but Back then it was quinine and manai manai was like A thing used For for little kids For diarrhea and things like that Do you remember do you remember like at some point in the 90s or 2000s? When puffy comas was becoming, you know iconic and was on You know everyone's television screens and on the cover of all those magazines. Do you remember saying to yourself like? Yeah, I work this guy's dad yeah, he he uh Of course, he was melvin combs son and uh He he made reference to her quite a bit That he was proud of his father and and things like that Do you have anywhere? I know this has been a long time and we're talking 50 years ago But yeah, do you have any recollection of when melvin popped up dead in january of 72? Oh gee i'm trying to remember offhand I I You know I I recall and yet I can't come out with it right now. I I just can't think about it But I remember it happening Because we were very much on them. We were working with uh the head of uh, New York narcotics who was a sterling johnson A great prosecutor You know and he would he would do anything for us. We we would go into him, you know For search warrants and arrest warrants And he was an unbelievable Prosecutor he was new york state prosecutor on narcotics. So that organization that he belonged to Ended up tumbling in the months after his murder So you guys were built you guys were building a case against the willy abraham A group Yeah, but then of course The other people took it up. Oh, yeah, so well in ours, right? We were saying that before you got on that uh melvin combs's Rise if you will happen, you know in the Uh infancy of Lucas and barns lucas and barns became A really big deal in 73 74 75 Yeah, and willy abraham was kind of the precursor to those guys Who had taken things over from bumpy johnson in the late 60s and that was who pretty melvin combs was working for out of this Harlem Night spot called the gold's lounge. Yes, gold's lounge. You're right. Yeah Yeah, hey frank, would you say that up until that point? Um Abrams was is it abraham abraham abraham? Was he 100 supplied by the italians at that point or did he have any of those direct sources to asia? Well, uh, originally it was all the italians that was supplying them You know, but then when we started taking down the italians They reached out to asian. That's when they were sneaking in the harrowing And uh and in caskets of soldiers and things like that And furniture coming in with soldiers, uh, you know, moving from overseas from southeast asia I know we had one case where the harrowing was in a refrigerator And and things like that, but no originally it was the italians That they were they were dealing with with it. I had a few people I had one guy Frank townsen who we arrested And uh, he would never give me the italians to give me every other black violator But he wouldn't give up the italians. They they were true blue to them. You know, I think they were afraid of them, too Yeah, yeah, and they were afraid of them. Uh, so with with the melvin combs connection, uh, we have ties to both the gambinos And the colombos I want to throw out two names and see if If there's any name recognition for you. So the one guy that That melvin combs was dealing with that went on to You know rise to meteoric meteoric heights more recently was a guy named, uh, ben or benjamin castelazo. They called him the claw Now castelago that doesn't ring a bell with me. And then the other one was alphonse sysca who they called fun Alphonse sysca was I worked on. Yeah, so tell us a little bit about fun. Yeah, he was big. Yeah He was big and and they were also involved uh with other people like, uh Beansy delacava uh, tony poshota Uh, salsiglia They were all part of that crew that was distributing larry larry the nose Larry the nose, uh, iras thing I I was on the arrest of larry the nose Um in the box it it was you look at the outside of the house and it was just You know regular looking house should go inside and it was Like the tajma how I swear to god I you're there. Yeah. Yeah, we can hear you I I used to refer to it. I I shouldn't say this as uh early american guiney. I mean that The uh the furniture Gross frank and I can say that Ben frank can say they were talliano But uh and of course it all had plastic covering on it, of course Yeah, that's like that's old school. It was unbelievable and we found helwin in the house And we arrested his son Uh larry larry wasn't home when we hit And eventually we got him, but uh when we did a search warrant on the house uh We found harrowing in uh in in in one of the ceilings and we arrested his son frank it's interesting to note about the way that The criminal justice system evolved And you look at some of these busts that were taken In and i'm interested i'm gonna lay something out and then i want to get your your input on it so in the 70s and early 80s Compared to what the laws became in the late 80s and 90s They were somewhat lenient these guys would take big drug busts and Do less than 10 years in prison? as opposed to A lot of the the crack cocaine inspired legislation where you could be caught for the first time with a What what's what was considered a? um a sellable or saleable amount of powder and you're Your first time you got caught with one kilo and this is it you're done the rest of your life Life in prison without parole as opposed to some of these major violators for the let's say the first 10 15 years of the drug war That were getting for you know in comparison. They were getting slaps on the wrist Yeah, well, you know when they did away with the The mandatory minimum sentences that that was a travesty of justice because they knew in the old days going back You know to the 60s if you were caught the first time mandatory five years You got caught with weight the second time a mandatory 10 years You know, but they did away with those things And uh, there were people that I that I arrest, you know, especially Italians You know in in like like poshota Uh, uh Anthony poshota and his brother nicolas I believe there's one of their sons Ended up becoming a couple in the bananos and I think he flipped Nicholas poshota jr. Who they called pj. I think yeah, yeah, it was nicolas poshota poshota jr. Anthony poshota was arrested in 59 He got out like in No, he was arrested in 49 he got out in Around 59 he was arrested again in 59 And got out and I arrested him in 69 All for heroin all the cases It's uh, I think it's a business that's difficult to walk away from there's just so much money in limited limited effort and a lot of money on you know a lot of ROI a lot of return on your investment except, you know the The the opposite side of this, you know the the uh What do they call it the the sword? Cuts both ways or I don't know what expression I'm looking for But you know the the other fact that might be quick money, but it's also double-edged sword double-edged sword. That's what I was looking at That uh, you know those those um punishments can be quite severe for that little amount of work You know how yeah, well, let's face it. You invest a hundred thousand dollars And your return is over a million dollars if you go down to the nickel bag You know I mean It's it's unbelievable the amount of money Let's look at the movie goodfellas and just uh, think about the scene when when henry hill comes home Uh And in a matter of a day or two They're back up on their feet and running and he walks in the the door and says all right Pack up your stuff. We're getting the hell out of this shit whole apartment. I gotta go to pit I gotta go to pittsburgh. I got some things In the hopper and then you know within a couple weeks. He's going Meeting up with the deniro and peshi and they got garbage bags full of cash Yeah, I mean if you if you think about if you're a mafia guy and you're involved in construction Or or you have a big sports book or something you you have the luxury of saying I don't want to get involved in junk But if you're a street guy an associate or soldato and like Yeah, you know, it's a lot less labor intensive To make a score a big drug deal and with conspire and with conspiracy laws as you know that have been Uh, you know weaponized Uh, you know definitely starting in the 80s. You don't have to touch the drugs. That's right. Yeah, you know when they When they came in with the riko laws, uh That really got a lot of them because then you were graven them all for conspiracy And then there's this other i'm interested is it to focus out at you and get your input on this too um something that I find It just blows my mind that there are professional criminals That just can't wrap their brain around certain basic fundamentals of law enforcement such as Forget about not touching drugs for a second When you get caught with large sums of cash There are so many people that they're initial they're impulse as well. I didn't do anything wrong I could have just found this cash and the you know, they can't prove that I've this cash was was uh, you know Was brought to me illegally But what they don't realize is the law doesn't make them have to prove it the law from You know the start of any money laundering case is You know the the burden is on you to show that it did not come from somewhere legally If if it's more than $10,000 and you haven't reported it the assumption By the government is that it came from somewhere illegal unless you show us otherwise So there's a lot of people that didn't that didn't understand getting caught with large sums of money How that was basically the same thing is getting caught with large sums of drugs Yeah, yeah, definitely. Did you notice that though in some in some of the offenders had a hard time understanding You know the basics of conspiracy and they would know definitely Definitely and they would argue with you and and say well, you know, I uh, I never touched drugs in my life And it's like well, that's not the point the point is you have three people working for you that did and then you were benefiting from that work That's true And you know, they were all profiting by you know, uh, uh when when all the uh, uh A mouth of your bosses says no Stay away from narcotics. They were all getting a package every month You know, they were all making money from it. They were talking on both sides of their mouth you know, uh Dealing with them all those years dealing with it with the gambinos and dealing of course with the Sicilian faction of the uh, banana family um Well, the bananas made no Bones about it. They were in the heroin business and everybody knew it especially when lilo galante got out of jail Uh, he took complete control of all heroin Coming into the united states and again All these all these violators that we worked on a billion dollars a year people can't people can't imagine that You know what i'm saying? They just can't imagine Like me i'm involved in a in a Sicilian cell that's bringing in a million dollars a day That you know, that's uh over 300 million dollars a year more than a lot of fortune 500 companies make and yet John q. Public isn't aware of the magnitude of this And now look what the cartels are doing through mexico. Mm-hmm. Yeah that now It's even it gets surpassed. What was going on in the 70s and 80s by these cartels are bringing in thousands of kilos a week thousands I know I mean back then in the 70s if we made A hundred kilo bus boy that was big news big news now there They seem to be getting that stuff daily and thousands hundreds of thousands of fentanyl pills and and things like that You know as i'm as we're talking and it's kind of percolating in my mind. I almost think that This lip service that a lot of these old school mafiosi would espouse these anti-drug Edics that were all bullshit It almost makes me think that they were doing it for pr purposes Yeah, like they were doing it So people like you frank panessa would see that quote in a newspaper or see that quote on a And this is totally unrealistic thinking but that the dea would see You know, let's say carlo gambino or someone make a statement about being anti drugs And then the fbi or the da would just say oh well carlo gambino said they were anti drug Let's close up shop guys But let's leave them alone now. I think it's for people in the neighborhood more. I think it's for I think it's for they have insulation within the neighborhood. So people don't talk because they think Exactly. These are good guys. They're not into drugs or prostitution like, you know, these are just Numbers was legal to them even to all the people that lived in the neighborhoods Yeah, but there was a lot of dovetailing with the numbers business and the drug business. I mean Oh, yeah, like that's that's how they met all the black dude drug Spanish ray, uh, who was the big Harlem numbers guy in the hispanic communities. Um, I don't think he's ever necessarily been Tied to drugs, but I know that there were a lot of guys In his orbit that were working with the italians that were working with the african americans And from their work with the numbers It then blossomed or evolved into into narcotics and I think oh, yeah You mentioned the bananos being, you know brazen, but I think bananos and the genovese were really the first families To just Make no apologies for no for dealing in drugs the other three families the colombo lukezi Um, again, be knows we're being juggles, but I they weren't They weren't open about it. Paul castellano wanted to kill john goddy because We're doing the dope. Yeah, but he was related to the church I'm not saying that Paul castellano wasn't a hypocrite. I'm saying that he was he was a hypocrite He was getting money from everybody. Yeah. Delacroche was I'm saying the gambinos in the 80s were still espousing this anti-drug Message when the bananos and the genovese kind of Said that might have been okay for for the for the first part of the the century or whatever, but by the 60s in in the 70s, I don't think the bananos or genovese were were uh Lying about what their intentions were. Yeah, I mean the the bananos look at veto genovese the the Founding father of this was a drug boss. Was he was he a original five family don no Luciano was okay, right? So a veto genovese Died in prison with drug boss of a drug boss, you know for a drug. Yeah, and Luciano himself, you know Was was big and importing heroin Yeah, well, he was and he was in once he was in frank knows more about this but once he was in italy He was a big exporter. Yeah, they're all yeah So i'm just i'm just mentioning those two crime families as kind of being ahead of the curve in terms of embracing drug dealing and And shedding this false This fallacy of this false narrative that they weren't involved like you said little galante Like I as I say, I worked on anthony poshota and he was in the genovese family larry iron I had a rusty was genovese Like a four brother kava was genovese all people that I worked on the four brothers Yes, yeah, although john or mento was a big junk guy and he was lucasie. Yeah, so there were always I think I'm not. No. Yeah. I'm not saying if I think maybe um, what i'm saying is being Misunderstood. I'm not saying that all families weren't dealing in drugs Yeah, I'm saying that the genovese and the banano families were the first groups to come forth and stop the pretence Stop the pretence. Yeah, I'm saying that we don't deal drug. Yeah, right. Yeah, that's a good point. Yeah Um, and let's also just we've talked about little galante a couple times on this podcast carmine little galante the anniversary of his assassination was Yesterday or the day before yeah, um, he was murdered in july of 1979 Uh, there's a famous photo of him lying, you know dead sprawled out Yeah, uh sprawled out on a patio of a restaurant in brooklyn with a cigar Uh clenched in between his teeth and for people that don't know cecillian lillo is cecillian for cigar his nickname was the cigar and he was a A diabolical ruthless individual that was awful got really got killed by his own men But it was it was stemmed from his greed that was upsetting everybody in the new york underworld Oh, yeah, he was set up by uh, Baldo amado and the cheserey bonaventury who were his bodyguards There were zips that he brought over from sicily as his bodyguards and Uh, they did a min and as a reward for doing him in because He he was set up by the other mafia families. In other words, the other mafia families gave the contract out and as a reward they gave Bonaventury, uh, solo power as far as importing the heroine from sicily. I gave him his own crew I think he was 26 years old at the time. That's all he was. He was 26 And I believe he was the youngest Capo at that time in new york city and his Assistant was baldo amado who was his cousin. Yeah, and and these are the people I dealt with, you know when when I dealt with the leporters and cicolora and And a father gato these were all uh, banana family under a cheserey and another person that we can kind of Bring the story up until 2022 One of the conspirators in the galante assassination was a young Up-and-coming soldier at the time by the name of bruno indelicato Um, oh, yeah bruno indelicato. Yeah, so when bruno indelicato just walked out of prison Uh a couple weeks ago and he'd been locked up for about 20 years He was another guy that whose participation in That murder plot was able he was able to leverage that into status in the banana crime family His dad was sonny red Who eventually was murdered in a yeah in a triple homicide that was depicted in the movie Because not casino depicted in the movie donnie brosco and actually bruno there's a character of bruno In donnie brosco. It's the actor that plays mustang sally from the sopranos I think his name is brian tarantino. Yeah, been in a bunch of which isn't of although I love that movie. It's not a very flattering portrayal because a bruno Yeah, because he was more gangster than they make bruno out and donnie brosco kind of be a lack of They make bruno out to be a lackey of his dad right in the movie But in reality bruno was quite capable. Yeah, right exactly, but he was a crazy Coked-out cowboy. Yeah, um that donnie brosco Got a contract for that was how donnie brosco A k joe pistone was going to make his bones. He was going to kill bruno to kind of put an end it right And then they pull the the bureau ends up pulling pistone out um Of his undercover work bruno ends up getting indicted in the Uh in the in the commission case Ends up going away for like 10 11 years Comes out in the 90s and becomes a top Capo and lieutenant of viny gorgeous viny basiano who eventually becomes the boss of the banano crime family and then in delicato was indicted and found guilty of a murder that he did with basiano And that's what he's been doing the last 20 years, but he's not That old even though he's spent probably about 30 years in prison I believe he's in his early 70s. So there's there's i'm I'm interested to see where bruno and delicato get slotted in the modern day banano crime family. Do you have any thoughts on that frank? No, I don't I I wouldn't know in the modern, uh, you know, um, um, I'm sort of like, uh Dated, you know, but does that blow your mind that guys that you were working back in the 70s? Guys are still active today. They say I I worked on all these people. There were so many Italians that we worked on that, you know really went up, uh and became bosses um Which is another example of how the the drug You know the the entrance into the drug world are going kind of full board into the narcotics, um Rackets which a lot of these wise guys did in the 70s. It was kind of like Something that wise guys did in the 40s 50s and 60s too, but not to the degree that they did in the 70s And a lot like you just said a lot of these guys were able to leverage that reputation in the drug world into 20 years down the road become the bosses of these families Oh, yeah Yeah So just I'll I'll I'll give you an example I I I was undercover into the cherry hill gambino's You know, uh, uh, joseph john Rosario and and It's my understanding That joseph's son is now No, rosario in los angeles. Rosario son Rosario son, i'm sorry. Rosario son tommy gambino is alleged to be the boss of what's left of the elli mafia But joseph's son was arrested in italy. Yes recently and he's a gambino member. That was like a year ago Yes, very recent. Yeah, right. They had surveillance of him meeting with all the top palermo guys on a boat Right and john gambino who he's referencing these were the The cherry hill gambino's were cousins of carlo gambino. Uh, they came from sicily set up shop They were the Sicilian faction of the gambino set up shop in cherry hill, new jersey right across the border from philadelphia and Again, they had pizza shops, right and they had zips working for them And distributing the harrowing through the pizza shops and I got involved with them because they had torched their one of their night clubs valentino's And they wanted me to you know in an undercover capacity To take it over and I thought it was a good idea, but of course Uh, the government wouldn't go for it I thought we'd set it up where we'd have cameras and we'd have Audio all over the place because at the time After valentino's was torched All of us used to hang out at a club in cherry hill called club on shantae And that's where you had the philadelphia people coming over and nicky scarfo coming up from uh, Atlantic city and you had the sicilians and I figured and we could get all them into this night club and and you know, uh Do some work on them, but uh, they wouldn't go for it So as I say, we were meeting at this place called club on shantae. It was a private club And uh, you had who's who in narcotics and organized crime hanging out there You know, and we're talking about guys that you work that eventually became bosses, uh, john gambino Of the cherry hill gambino's he didn't become a sole boss, but in the late 2010s, he was on the ruling board of the Gambino crime family. He died a couple years ago And uh, john was actually caught on a tape in 2011 with the philly guys With joly gambi and those guys discussing You know mob politics Yeah Well, this was awesome. Frank, uh, you are a superstar. You are always welcome back on the og podcast Well, it's great talking to you guys and as I say, uh, uh, I try to remember everything that went down You know, but we were very active on the black violators during the 70s Especially us in the task force the new york drug enforcement task Which was made up new york city cops dea agents and new york state police And we were very effective effective and taking them down. Look who we took down, you know We took down barns frank lucas goldfinger And many of the others frank and barns and lucas both flipped Yeah, well lucas flipped Well barns flipped too barns uh flipped also But lucas was the one that knew everything bar or lucas flipped before barns. Go ahead. Frank. What do you think happened to frank matthews? Oh, yeah, we didn't Oh, I I think he was murdered. Wow. Really you do. You don't think he's on a beat somewhere in uh port of erota right now No, you know I when we were looking for frank matthews It was my understanding that you you had a a lot of corrupt attorneys in new york And it was my understanding that just before he was going to go to trial One of these attorneys said look We made arrangements to get you to the caribbean Just bring what you have to bring And we'll take our boat out and meet the other boat. This is this of course was a rumor You know, but there might be some credibility to it And they killed him on the boat Yeah Because I I don't think he he would have disappeared, you know forever. We would have come up with him So let's give people a little that's that's pretty yeah, so people that don't know frank matthews aka black Caesar Was one of these very prominent African-american narcotics traffickers out of harlem, but he was also Out of philadelphia out of baltimore out of you know, he was someone that had a very wide reach And he was about to go to trial in 1973. I believe the summer of 73 and he took off And nobody's ever found him and there's rumors about and I as I say at the time when we were looking for him You know, there were rumors that Some scam was played by these attorneys And he brought all his money with him and of course they they offed him out at sea Well, there's something that might give some credence to this as we're talking about it. Interesting And tell me what you think about this because I just wrote something recently There was a pretty contentious Meeting or series of meetings between matthews and members of the genovese crime family In the months before matthews disappeared So this is actually kind of lending some merit to what uh frank panessa is saying that he heard so They were doing a drug deal together In the spring of 73 Yeah, and some of these genoveses either didn't respect Or they didn't respect frank matthews or they knew he was going away So they thought they could get away with scamming him Yeah, and they they try to scam them Well, he fronted 300 25 thousand exactly and they took okay, and he's supposed to get so many kilos And they stiffed him. So he went to the powers to be we kidnapped a guy Yeah, they kidnapped A guy one of the mob guys And so as ransom he got back Uh, the three hundred twenty five thousand dollars plus to make amends They they fronted him 25 kill of the heroine, right, but I'm thinking to myself Maybe the genovese Maybe that was just a ploy to get to get him to lower his guard and then What you're saying plays into A narrative that the genovese had him killed and got their money back, right? It's it's very true. It's very true and they got they uh, as I say the rumor was that you know, he had a A suitcase full of money and jewels and all that and he believed these attorneys and I'm for the life of me I used to know the attorneys names and I can't think of them right now but uh And and I think that's what happened. You know another guy That was a very big black violator was Zach Robinson Never heard of him Never did no we had a We had a story. We arrested him in the task force So anyway, when we arrest him Uh In his car in the trunk is three hundred twenty five thousand dollars. Okay So he's in jail And his sister comes to pick up the car. So one of the guys that works for me She says I came here to get my brother's car And they said, okay, you can have it. Was there anything else in the car? So the agent, you know busting her horns was no, there wasn't anything else There wasn't anything else No, there wasn't don't tell me you took that 300,000 Stupid ass broad Yeah, I see I'm just did a quick google search. Yeah, he comes up a lot is connected all these guys that frank's talking about Frank mathews and I'm shocked that frank mathews doesn't have a more of a pop culture profile that you know people they think barns They think lucas nobody unless you're someone that really studies this stuff You don't know who frank mathews was and he was bigger than barns and lucas Yeah, you know who was another guy that I worked on heavily with my brother andy Was uh, james wafton Yeah, who don't get don't hit don't get him confused with the nfl wide receiver. There was another James wafton that was a drug that was a drug love all bills right and the green big had a real estate company uh, he lived in nourishel And he was he was a heavy violator to and connected with all of them, of course Frank, did you have a difficult time? navigating through the potential corruption on the part of local pd because when we we think of the big heroin dealers in the 70s and early 80s, you know, we've heard stories about Elements within nypd being corrupt. Was that difficult for federal law enforcement to navigate through that? Yeah, you know, there was always the thing about the french connection heroin And they blamed a number of people and when bob lucy became who was a detective became an informant He gave up the other detectives. He gave up A number of guys that worked in siu And so there was a lot of corruption going on You know siu was noted, you know, those were the days going back when you had You know the french connection heroin and you had they called them the seven ups Yeah, they made a movie about it was a shiner. I was it's an underrated 70s cop flick. Yeah Yeah, and there was a lot of stories about them, but me personally I was involved and and I didn't know until after the fact I was doing undercover work for nypd too, you know And so the guy that was handling me Was a detective by the name of steve caracapa Okay And I I did some cases for him. I was doing it on chinese people And steve caracapa turned out to be an assassin for the mafia. Yeah, right. I knew yeah, I knew that recognized that name right away Wow, and I didn't did you know that frank was working with him? No, I did not you know you're working with him This is another part of your your tv. Right. Give me a storyline in your your tv show Yes, you know, I As we say in new york, nothing for nothing, but I never trusted him. Wow Caracapa they were killing people nothing about it. They weren't just dirty cops. They were doing hits, right Oh, they were hitting people. Right. Oh, yeah for gas pipe and uh and vic amusa Oh, yeah Well, frank, this was great. You've done it all you've seen it all you've uh, you you've literally you've you've lived a a epic novel and 10 Movie scripts and one day me and you are going to get your story to the big screen Hopefully sooner than later. We got some things in the hopper right now that hopefully we can discuss maybe In a few months if this if these things go, uh, you know coalesce a little bit more But frank and I have been on that journey for a couple years. It's a roller coaster But your story really deserves For the public to be able to digest it because it's such an amazing story. I call it donny brosko on steroids And uh, thank you so much frank. We're gonna have you on again And uh, we thank you. You are an og's og And we salute you. Thank you. You guys take care. Thank you for talking to you. Bye. Bye, frank We're gonna sign off. Uh, thank you for enjoying another edition of the original gangsters podcast I'm scott burnstein for jimmy butchilato and ben Behind the glass who was a godsend since joining our team. Um, we are gonna sign off and we will see you next week. Please Subscribe like share We got more video content coming. It's going to be more consistent ben is a just a superstar Editor and and is really helping us move the needle here. We will see you next week scott burnstein jimmy butchilato og podcast out