 You don't seem like someone who would consciously take enjoyment from the suffering of others but you unconsciously take enjoyment from the suffering of others. If someone's not finishing that food and it's got meat in it, I would still eat it. What if there was a human baby cut up in that food and that food was going to go to waste, would you still eat it? Why aren't you vegan? Why am I not vegan? Yeah. Because it's like milk powder. I don't really want to spend ages looking in the shops checking if everything doesn't have milk powder in it. Are you vegan except for milk powder? Why don't doing milk grow up dairy free? It's quite easy. So what about cheese and eggs in that? Cheese, yeah. You do cheese? It's a hard one. So it's not just milk powder is it? No, no, no. So I would believe your excuse if you didn't eat cheese and you just didn't worry about milk powder? It's the effort to go vegan and be checking everything. It's interestingly enough not just the milk powder is it? Because if that was a bit too inconvenient for your threshold you would have already gotten rid of the cheese and the eggs. Do you know why I don't eat dairy? Why not? Because of the suffering and cruelty and killing in the dairy industry exploitation and killing of the animals. Stealing up the calves from the mothers and slaughterhouses and I don't think it's justified so I have this five minutes of taste pleasure on my tongue, a certain flavour for the animals to experience that on the back of it. What about you? I agree with you. You agree? You agree? It's like ignorance. Yeah, well basically if you go and get some cheese you're not going to get flashes of what happens to animals as you're eating it. No. But I do because I am best... Like I went veggie because it was easy. Yeah. And then as soon as it starts becoming not easy. That's when you have to start making that... Ignorant. You have to make that trade off then. So you have to go okay it's not as easy for me to be fully vegan but how much harder is it for the victims here and do I care enough about the victims to try that little bit harder? In my way somewhere but this is more interesting. Yeah. But I mean you don't seem like a cruel person. You don't seem like a person who... I don't like that one. You don't seem like someone who would consciously take enjoyment from the suffering of others. But you unconsciously take enjoyment from the suffering of others. Ignorance of this but yeah like it's not attacking but it's like... It's frightful. I mean the things you're saying. Yeah. People don't often like to be... Because it doesn't make them feel very good. If a cow could plead with you not to destined them to a slaughterhouse or to a life of suffering what would they say to you? You know there'd be a lot harsher on you than I'm being. I don't like to pussy foot around topics too much. I like to be straight like a straight talker. If we spent too much time beating around the bush we never really get to the guts, the crux of it. If I cared about animals and someone said hey do you know that this happens in the dairy industry I'd be like thank you man. Thanks for telling me that. I actually do care about these animals. But if I didn't really care and I cared more about my taste I'd be like it's a bit hard. It's a bit too inconvenient for me. You know what I mean? You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. Because I don't really care. It's more lip service. But if you really care you'd be like I'm interested where's the vegan cheese? Are you in favour of the gradual approach like the meat reduction approach? So I never tell people to reduce. Really? Ever. I'd only ever say you should be vegan because it's a moral duty to... If you care about animals to be vegan. Or you should give it your 100% Yeah, yeah. And you know what sometimes happens? Because I don't advocate reduce because it's so subjective. I say oh reduce your meat and you'd be like well I eat 10 steaks a day you said reduce I'm gonna eat 9 and a half well I'm reducing thanks Joey bro. Really care about animals. He's a great animal rights activist. You know? Nah. So people sometimes they hear my message it's really fall on and they go wow and they start going vegetarian and they start cutting things out. Veganism is like the most practical thing for people to reduce their suffering and exploitation and killing of animals. I think it's the most practical thing that most people can do. I'm not saying like just wear a paper bag around and like don't step on an ant just trying to be practical and say like you can just not buy and use animal products. Like I feel like I feel confronted I just feel more inclined to back my own opinion and reject all the facts in front of me. I really think that's really... Do you think that's irrational? Do you think that's irrational? Yeah I think you see it in politics. Let's just say you didn't listen to me. Yeah. You didn't listen to anyone and you just analysed the reality for yourself. Where would you sit then? What about can I give you one film to watch? So then you can just view what happens to the animals and don't worry about what I say and just ask yourself is that justified and is this something I want to do contribute to or not? Yeah. And then it's just the animals you do it for the animals because I always tell people like they should go vegan because it's the right thing to do and it's for the right reasons not because someone told them to or because they felt you know that I don't know actually. Yeah. I hope that people's conscience does the talking for themselves and I just try to help lead in there. I think this is meaningful change but it's like down on the individual and I guess it's like a lie I can tell myself but if I were to be I feel there's like a lot of I saw my uncle lives in Germany he's vegan and there's no vegan options over there so if you go to a supermarket everything's like there's not a lot of anti-meat culture there's no like vegan eye or it would be hard to make all those people individually believe that veganism would be the right choice but if they saw the range of alternatives in the supermarket it's like a structural way to end or even reduce animal suffering. That's good. Yeah. No but that's like another way of me not becoming vegan. You're basically passing you're saying over there. Yeah. There's people in Antarctica that have to eat fish. I think the shit thing about being vegan is people will I feel like people must hold you to a really high moral standard. All the time. They expect you to be a doctor or a biologist evolutionary specialist. Yeah. I think that must be one of the rules. It's really a simple thing. It's really a simple people over complicated and what happens I feel like is something else starts talking with people and it's their habit and it's they love the taste of this. I don't want to change that and it's convenience and it's a cultural norm. Right now it's a cultural norm to exploit and kill animals. Yeah. You know just like in the time of you know take it back to like times of slavery or you know just people generally having wars and sword fights in the streets and these are just cultural norms and this is what this is it's a cultural norm but in the future it's going to be looked back at as like why did we do that and then you'll be like well I remember having that conversation with one of those activists back then when you're like 80 years old and you're like Yeah. Maybe. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's going to change because this injustice like this when people realise how bad it is these are conscious beings these are like us these animals are like us in many ways and the ways that matter for morality to be a thing for you to be morally worth anything you have to just have a brain, a consciousness and suffer. Sentience. Yeah, you experience the world. I think that's why I like draw the line. Of course. If they're not sent in I think. I don't know. Like I don't really consider shrimps to be sent in. Shrimps are oyster is probably a bit more of a grey area. I think there's like a gradual scale of where things are reactionary. We won't debate over like cows and pigs and chickens and fish with nervous systems and you know because you go to Cambridge did you go to Cambridge? Yeah, yeah. They did the Cambridge Declaration of Consciousness there. Okay. Yeah but they do you know about that the Cambridge Declaration of Consciousness? There's this thing saying that these animals are sentient beings, aren't just beings like fish was included I think and... Because I think there's like a scale from like an amoeba which reacts so it senses a chemical food gradient and it follows it or maybe it's repelled by something so there's a stimulus there's a reaction but then I think with humans I can see on the other end of that there's a stimulus and unless it's like touching a hot stove or something the information is processed before reaction is given which gives you the ability to feel things that matters most to me in terms of like animal rights I guess Yeah, yeah, of course I would consider eating and not eating Me too that was a very me too that was couldn't have said it better self actually I don't think I've ever said it that well so when we as a society come to that realisation that we're doing this to these sentient beings like I don't think it can really I mean there's money it's got to take a long time but it can't last forever like it's got to be a point in time where there's like a snowball effect and most of people in society start to wake up on mass and go what are we doing? I struggle to see fish like a lot of fish sentient because I can't really relate to them Yeah, because they're so different shrimp and because like if you like do it as a scale from like plankton and then like up the fish chain I think it's hard Yeah, but when you get a prawn there's science on prawns and lobsters and actually they're just but lobsters you can see like they react and whatnot they don't like being put in boiling pans shrimp just kind of shrimp there is research on them too so I'll just look at the data on that but like again if you're going to say like an oyster like a piece of snot in a shell that has like the beginnings of nerve ganglia no brain then I'm more gray but prawn they have a brain and nervous system and eyes because you can wear what is pain and I think pain is only something it's a very human concept yeah well it's well I think they can they can show the animals feel something they want to avoid and they feel it changes their behavior in a bad way you know in a negative way and they then you're giving pain relief and their behavior returns back to normal so there's ways of testing pain and that's just more you need a brain to feel pain perceive it otherwise it's just if your brain dead and I'll cut you you'll heal you'll react to that stimuli but there'll be no object experiencing that pain and that's I'm more concerned about the subject the subject deserves the rights yeah not the body devoid of a subject you know like a tree or a you know yeah sea sponge nothing again which I can't really believe it's sponges animals I can't believe that they're not even plants but yeah I don't care for sea sponges myself so we're having a logical rational discussion here I'm not here to challenge you I like a good chat yeah but this is very I mean would that has this discussion reinforced you in your habit more or has it just made you consider this topic a little bit more yeah I think consider it more like I'm surrounded by a lot of people who are vegan yeah is that your name that is my name it's not me there we go coincidences happen and I think like the hardest thing is just like you're eating lunch out and you go to get a meal deal and all the vegan options are really shit and then I feel like the more that I'm eating lunch out like if I'm working the less I care about animal rights because it just inconveniences me yeah then maybe I can do more I don't know then you just do the scale thing you do the trade off is my slight inconvenience here worth that and I think that's an education thing it's awareness thing because the one thing I always do always have done no matter how vegetarian I've been if someone's not finishing their food and it's got meat in it I would still eat it okay let me see the threshold here what if there was a human baby cut up in that food and that food was going to go to waste would you still eat it I don't want to eat a human baby so you have a you do have a you do have a threshold now but you let's say like what I was trying to do is seeing how far you took it yeah so you do have I mean it's like a social problem right that helps socially acceptable is eating baby let's just say it was socially acceptable but you you find it as disgusting as you find it now would you I find it disgusting because society it's disgusting so I would never eat so I would never eat like a ham sandwich that's left over because I like I'm not religious but somehow I've ended up with really anti poor views okay from people who don't eat it for religious reasons so you wouldn't eat the baby for disgusting reasons not because that baby was murdered no no as an analogy like why would I not eat the baby because fuck that I'm not eating that it's the same as like a pig I don't eat the pig because they were murdered and I think that the product of murder is something in my body and I feel like when I first stopped eating pork which is like a year ago that's when I realised like I've said these words and I think I just need to believe them a bit more I should feel this way about all meat and I think when the students cut out pork and it was like with false fire I think it's like a scale on one day I reckon I'll be moving from you still see meat as food and then I think like when you look at meat you'll still see food yeah because that's the matrix thing you know I'm like seeing all the numbers and I'm seeing all the slaughter house and the animals like struggling for their life blood pouring out of them and things like that and that's what I see I see meat so let me just give you this pamphlet before you go I appreciate you spending this time chatting with me mate this is Happy Cow Fine Vegan Restaurants near you super good app this is Dominion I already told you about that the most annoying thing you must hear must be like how do you get your protein as in pictures so protein is found in all plants at varying degrees yeah but not all amino acids that you can be represented like plants are in each individual plant no but when you eat you don't eat just lentils by themselves or but what I'm saying is when you get enough protein from a variety of plant foods there's a certain threshold that you meet yeah with a certain amount of food calories actually where you meet all your amino acid requirements I use the app Chronometer it's a fantastic app but it gives you a full nutrient breakdown and it's free so I chuckle my stuff food in there like TVP I'll go wow look how much calcium and fiber and stuff is in this soy protein I've got 140 grams of protein today that's good it's a good chat good talking to you mate I appreciate it have a good day