 We're late getting here because we have an issue with the governor over a different bill Transitional residence, but I thank you all for joining us this morning and I'm also going to be in another meeting which is the Budget conference committee at the same time I'm in this meeting, but we do have to end this meeting on the transition residences at 930 to take up H that's 8th 145 Bill dealing with Use of force so with that I'm going to ask To try to keep everybody to about 10 minutes if possible So I'm going to start with will hunter since he watched the presentation and that would give Jim Baker or Derek or Emily an opportunity to respond to that His concerns will so will Will is a former state senator from Windsor County and Currently is active in Working with prisoners. Can you hear me? I can hear you fine. I hope you're not driving. Okay, great No, I'm not. I'm sitting at my office, which is the Springfield McDonald's. Oh, okay Anyway, I really appreciate the chance to share these thoughts with you and Just want to give you a quick little background in 2013 I started a nonprofit organization called the Community Restoration Corps and I now house people in five different communities including approximately 47 former inmates of Which about 20 are currently under DOC or federal supervision Several more are under strict conditions of release having been released once they were able to provide a residence to the court Most of the former inmates who I house have diagnosed mental health conditions Including many with substance use disorder Most of the former inmates are on Methadone or suboxone maintenance some are connected to the designated mental health agency or not I've had a long time interest in criminal justice and housing during my time in the house in the Senate in the 70s and 80s Corrections wasn't as big an issue as it is now I practiced law in the 80s and 90s and I started volunteering at Dismas house about 20 years ago In 2006 I had an experience that was pretty important in my decision to get into this which was Picking up a former client as he got out of prison and trying to find him a place to live He had a sexual conviction His release had been on the front page of the paper It was a horrible day and I thought about the fact that this day he'd been looking forward to Was in his words the worst day of his life. So I've gotten involved in Doing a lot of housing I said right now How's the people I've mentioned in spring of 2013 I opened the first sober house of mine in Springfield It's grown since then I worked very closely with the probation parole office in Springfield and I house a lot of people who Have gotten to the end of their time in transitional housing Many people who are getting out of jail with no place to go I think that it's safe to say that both the Springfield and the Hartford office have turned to me with some very difficult cases And I have done my best to find a place for them to go in the current RFP I think the DOC identified some important issues with the problem with the way the system is being run now Including the importance of getting people into permanent housing Need to respect their dignity The desire to have former inmates take responsibility and not just be told to do but what to do all the time But I think that the move to scattered site apartments and the loss of 90 congregate housing beds Is a real step backwards I have vivid memories of the fsu apartments of the 1990s And I'm sure corrections would say it'll be different this time But I think that putting people when they first get out of jail in uh apartment by themselves Is a very hazardous These are vulnerable people who have not unfortunately while they've been locked up been Taught things about making good choices and good decisions Corrections acknowledges the decisions get made for them But putting them out on their own I think is all kinds of hazards I'm a strong believer in the value of congregate settings for multiple reasons They all have to do with combining support and accountability, which I think are essential to have go hand in hand There's a world of difference between dropping somebody off in a one bedroom apartment Maybe giving them some business cards of the community partners who are going to be in touch with them And there's an alternative showing that person a bedroom in a welcoming house where there are other people who are going to be around all the time One of the questions I want you all to think about is who comes by To welcome the person back their first night in the community When they're in an apartment by themselves I know who comes by and it's not the chief of police and the chairman of the select superintendent of schools It's the people who they got in trouble with back when they were out the last time And I spend a lot of my time Shoeing people away who are coming by the houses that I run Because they're not there to do bible study. They're there to try to drag people back down and i'm sorry, but that's the reality Who keeps an eye on the former inmate to be sure that He or she is doing what he needs to be doing Again, you can have a staff person who drops by once a day once a week a few times a week But people are good at projecting an aura of competence. They're they're they've learned especially people who've had histories of addiction they've learned what to say to get through the conversation that they've got to get through right then and It doesn't work very well Who is there when you're in a scattered site apartment as a safety net when The therapist you were supposed to be having the telemedicine conference with wasn't there that day or didn't ever call It's all well and good to talk about community partners and connecting people with services in the community But those sometimes look better on paper than in reality And finally i'm going to say and i'm going to be blunt about this scattered sites may reduce Recarceration because people don't get caught but that's not fair to the people or to the community We're facing unprecedented challenges right now The mental health system as you all know better than I do is in very bad shape especially after covid Telemedicine may sound nice, but it doesn't do what in-person service does The opioid epidemic is raging Overdose deaths are way up despite the omnipresence of narcan And the fact that it's never been easier to get help This is not the time to change the approach From congregate housing to a scattered site one and eliminate 90 congregate deaths I can talk for hours, but i'm respectful of your time and That's the essence of what I want to get across Thank you will I really appreciate your comments and frankly having Work in a facility that was congregate living for I agree with you. I'm disappointed The and I'm not just talking about the department corrections now The entire move away from congregate housing by dcf doc and other groups It doesn't it it's in a We I won't go there, but I appreciate your comments and I think all of us are concerned about what happens I can remember the fsu apartments because There was one next to 204 depot in bennington When I worked there And I would frequently see Fs fsu officers Struggling with offenders who were in those apartments in that apartment And they were scattered and it was difficult So But I have to We don't really have the right to say that you'll see no you can't do this This is kind of The decision that they make and I suppose you can Pulls up the money and et cetera, but our best effort is to make sure that I worry that by moving away from the congregate housing that we have in the state that we lose the ability To resurrect them Because they'll be gone I'm going to turn it over to commissioner baker You're muted jim Which I say they're going to put that on my tombstone You're muted senator It's not a good day when the first appearance you make you start talking you're muted because that's going to Set the tone for the rest of the day For the record, my name is jim baker. I'm the interim commissioner of corrections And I appreciate an opportunity to talk about this issue The first thing I got to say senator and I don't I don't want this tone to set off wrong But this is not the 1990s and it's not the fsu houses of the 1990s I appreciate senator hunter's comments I understand exactly where he's coming from but to to equate What the fsu house is because you know, I remember it well, you know, I was the trooper responding to those places Um, that was and we all have to be you know, we have to remember the history here The fsu house is the 90s were nothing more than Overflow locations because of the crowding in the gels And there wasn't the programming that was built into this rfp that went out Uh in this situation And and the next thing I have to respond to is that I I appreciate I appreciate the uncertainty of moving to scattered housing But we're following exactly what csg recommended in in justice reinvestment Our criticism has been about technical violations And returning people to jail And when taking a look at the csg report What it showed was the technical violations the majority of the time We're around the loss of housing And the loss of housing went back to Many times the reusing of a substance And they would lose housing as a result of that because most of the of the congress housing in the state Has a sober housing model to it And we took we took it, you know, when I first started a year ago, we took a great deal of criticism for for those Returns on technical violations So based on that I challenged Early on in this when I didn't even fully understand the housing issue I challenged the staff to take a look at New ways of approaching housing And we're trying to get away from the term transitional We know from the research and the data, which is very clear Not not emotion research and data is very clear That current housing folks have less success Transitioning to permanent housing. We know that We knew that from the result of doing the theory of change that we did over the summer of 2020 That was the basis for us putting the RFP out And so what we're trying to do is answer the challenge that was given to us by CSG and their report Taking a look at different housing models In order for us to figure out if we can be more successful And not return people for technical violations And so that's how we got to where we are and the RFPs that went out were pretty clear The other thing I'll take to Senator Hunter Senator Sears is that We're not just dumping people off at an apartment The RFP is pretty clear That the folks that have bidded for and we have awarded contracts to Have to put wraparound services around those individuals And I know already that one of the providers is looking at employing 40 people across the state To provide those wraparound services And this is where the whole system is going to have to come involved To include the CJCs in wraparound and You know, I appreciate Senator Hunter's comments about the police chief, but let me take back myself when I was the police chief in Rutland I did greet people coming back to the community as the police chief And that's the model we need to get to the community. This is not just a corrections issue. This is a community issue And the model that we put in place Is meant to follow the science and the data and the recommendations from csg I'm taking a look at different housing models now. We haven't walked completely away from kindred housing there there is still kindred housing mixed in and We're not walking completely away from it But in order to balance our portfolio with the money we have which is about six million dollars 2.1, which is 1115 Medicaid funds We've been able to do some things we haven't been able to do in the past Which is create other opportunities for housing across the state locations Where we haven't had housing before by going to the scattered model And I'll point out orange county lamo lamo oil county is two locations Where we haven't had housing in the past which we're now going to have housing In order to get individuals closer to their support systems And yes, I agree That um, there are certain elements of what we know in corrections to make people successful One of them is permanent housing another one is Is support positive support pro social worker support And yes, there is the danger of going back to Where you where you came from before being incarcerated that you're going to end up with a population that's going to have a bad influence on you So i'm i'm more than happy to go into the entire process we followed To include the rfp the scoring process My staff spent 14 hours for Reviewing these rfps We didn't make rash decisions about where we're going We're following the science and we're following the data. We're following the recommendations from csg If if there's suggestions that we should be doing something else Then i'm all ears, but When I first got here justice reinvestment was a focus and we took that advice from justice reinvestment created a theory of change created an rfp Put that rfp on the street And then spent 14 hours reviewing those to determine If folks were going to be the best fit for what that rfp was and that's how we got to where we are And i'm certainly willing to listen to other suggestions But I do I do think if we're gonna if we're gonna follow justice reinvestment too that we got to follow justice I appreciate that that was part of justice reinvestment too I truly do as a member of that committee and active in it As a member of the csg board i completely understand that I think there is something to be I am concerned about the The availability in the community of the supports that are needed Particularly what I see in a mental health system My local mental health agency will tell you that they're down four clinicians because they can't compete with the private sector of clinicians of I you know if we're relying on that group for example to provide supports And i'm not sure what the wraparound means jim What it means under is part of the rfp The folks that are bidding for are going to have to provide those services And so we're Will we in some cases try to depend on the designated agencies? Absolutely a part of the rfp was If you're going to provide the service then you've got to provide that support as part of that service And that's that's what was built into the rfp that i know that the rfp requires the clinician to be hired to work with the Folks and then is that what i'm hearing? How do they provide the wrap? I i'm not clear. It's not clear to me. I know what wraparound is for Young foster children So if it's okay, yes Something is causing a huge backlash Do you have a second device on no i'm not i'm not sure Emily i think you do have two devices going unfortunately I'm going to try and remove the one hopefully that's not going to mess you up. Is that okay? Okay, let me see Um I think yeah, I think you removed it. Can we try it again, Emily? Good morning. I'm good morning. That's much better I'm emily again the record the corrections housing administrator And I just wanted to chime in and say Yes, some of these contracts do have clinicians on staff or on contract as part of their funding agreement with us and others have Direct relationships with community providers who will be Providing that support and all of them have staff who will Be providing one-on-one support to everybody who is housed and making sure they're doing the service coordination needed For whatever their needs are in terms of mental health substance use Job readiness, you know tenancy education, etc. Etc Derek, I know you presented a full PowerPoint presentation to the house corrections and institutions I'm not asking that for that here, but perhaps as part of our um, you could post that so people could look at that power may want to refer to it in terms of What the plan is It is on our website as well. If we could have Peggy posted on our website It is great I think for both of you the question is How does What? former senator hunter was explaining how do we avoid that type of situation he envisioned With this new plan Well, um, as the commissioner said not that congregate living is always perfect by the way, I'm not suggesting there it is So we do have a mix as the commissioner said still of congregate living environments as well as Scattered site apartments and the scattered site apartments have an entire team of staff Who are checking in on those folks every day who have a daily meeting? Between themselves to discuss what people's needs are and what the agenda is for the day and how they're going to support them Working closely with the probation and parole office locally with any community providers so it's it's really The housing first model is is a very intensively supported Model it's it's just that people are in their own apartment and people come to them instead of them having to Go to a bunch of different providers What about the relationship with the landlord? well in the case of most of these arrangements the community partner has a master lease agreement with the landlord so they Provide a layer of protection both for the tenant that they're renting to sub sub leasing to or or housing in that apartment and they protect the landlord by Being the leaseholder so that they can intervene if there are issues that arise Thank you. I I've got a senator bereuth. Can you take over for a few minutes? Sure I appreciate all of your testimony. I'm sorry. I miss will miss jim henry's testimony, but since jim and I talked about this already I kind of know What he might say and I appreciate the work that they've done down in Bennington Is it now 208 depot? Other facilities Yes, 208 depot. I get confused on my depot streets Thank you. I'll be watching but not Okay So picking up midstream Um Emily since we were with you. Did you have more you wanted to offer in? Unless there are specific additional questions. I I think I'm Okay Uh jim henry How about you? I good morning. Yeah. Good morning everybody. I'm jim henry uh executive director of sea all ink One of the programs under the sea all umbrella is the 208 transitional housing program As we move forward with this this process Unfortunately, we're not going to be able to participate In the new realm of the thought process with doc And that's basically based on staffing We run a 24 hour seven staffing pattern And we feel that makes our program And the individuals in our program successful So the cut that we have been presented with Unfortunately, it's significant enough that we cannot survive that And I understand that I understand business decisions I understanding evolving with programs. We've done it for many years over at the DCF side that we are a part of So I do understand that but unfortunately we also have to make that the business decision That we would not be able to survive that cut. So we will have to part ways It might be something down the road that we would be You know interested in I understand this is the initial phase But maybe as as things continue to evolve, you know, we'd be able to take a look at it You know as as we get down the road As we have evolved, you know with other programs with DCF, I like to diversify In a sense So that may be something down the road, but unfortunately the significant of the cut That has been presented to us is enough that we have to close that program Is that the only uh factor that prevents your participation is the is the cut Yes Okay um So if You don't have anything more mr. Henry I'm wondering, um Mr. Baker, if you'd mind if I went back to will hunter Will uh, I don't know if you'd be willing to but having listened to The testimony is there anything you'd like to Offer back into the discussion Sure, um Two things one is The what has happened in the 30 years that I've been involved with the criminal justice system in Vermont Is that For some good reasons people don't go back to jail as often as they used to Um, I'm bothered by the use of the term technical violation Uh, I think it makes it sound like we're talking about Somebody who You know didn't fill out a form right or something, but if we're talking about a recovering addict relapses Uh, I don't think it's fair to anybody Including the community to refer to that as a technical violation That's a serious risk that is presented to the other people in the residents and to the community and I agree that it's um appropriate to Think of alternatives to reincarcerating the person who uses and jeopardizes the recovery of the other people in the residents um, but going to A model of scattered sites and I'm sorry to be so blunt But the reality is you may have somebody checking in once a day And you can talk about wraparound services, but The reality may be different from the fsu apartments But it is going to be a lot easier for risks to get bigger and bigger and bigger undetected When people are in scattered sites um I also just want to say that It bothers me a little bit when we talk about the science of it as if human beings are like water molecules You can do an experiment with water molecules and they're all the same but human beings as I remember the conversation we had in the committee room in the state house When I was on the judiciary committee and we were talking about sentencing guidelines and judge Mahade came in and talked about the fact That every defendant is like a snowflake He's unique And I remember chet catch him a senator from anison county who said yeah and judges like snowflakes too Every one of them is so maybe we need guidelines, but There is a limit to how much You can do a social science experiment and say this works and this doesn't work um I just think we should be careful about Making what is a pretty tectonic shift of getting away from The congregate housing Getting rid of 90 beds Which is what I think is going to be happening and it sounds like it'll be more than that because Of what jim henry has said about they're not going to be able to do the beds that they would be part of So close to a hundred beds in congregate settings are going to be gone and there's A lot of institutional knowledge. There's experience. There's The relationships with the community partners that the current staff has that are going to be lost And I think it's a it's a serious risk Again the numbers If we're motivated only by keeping people from going back to jail this may work, but at a cost to the community um already The the situation with the people in the local probation parole offices is that They know that people should Can't go back to jail as often as they used to go and so there are some People who get pretty far down the path of their addiction and they're still in the community without Meaningful intervention Which is another issue, but I just think that it's important to keep in mind Finally, I would just say this I work very closely with the springfield probation parole office and I don't think that This was a bottom-up change There are many times when somebody from that office will talk to me about housing somebody And I'll do the research and look into the person's situation And come back and say, you know, I really think that that person would probably be better off in the phoenix house rise program rather than In one of my places and now the phoenix house rise program is going to be gone So I you know, I understand where doc is coming from I appreciate the motivation that all the speakers have but I just think this is a serious shift And I don't think it's a good one Thank you senator white so This is just maybe this isn't even an appropriate question, but I guess I have some concerns some along the same line as mr. Hunter, but My I'm wondering if we're losing 90 beds And the thought is that they would be Housed elsewhere We have a vacancy rate in brattleboro of 1% We have people who have Section 8 vouchers who've been looking for housing for over a year There are no apartments So my question is Where where will these people go because there aren't There aren't apartments anywhere I can answer that senator bruce if you would like absolutely First of all senator white. I appreciate your observation And then senator bruce. It's okay. I'd just like to be able to clarify a couple things that senator hunter said please do Because of what emily described to you as the relationship It's it's not a direct relationship with the tenant For example in burlington the burlington housing authority is going to be the go-between They're securing they're securing housing And so let's let's be let's be really candid about landlords And when someone shows up with a section 8 voucher Let's be real candid about what happens with landlords about picking and choosing who comes into on housing And that's one of the things that I my point I was trying to make earlier about when I was the police chief in rump This is a community effort. This is where we're going to be leaning very heavily on the cjcs As part of this effort of getting people into permanent housing And it kind of goes back to my point earlier and uh, you know, senator hunter brought this up We're not dealing. We're not dealing with science Or data from the 1990s or even early 2000s I mean the research the research on trauma informed care is pretty clear now It's pretty clear About what you need to do to make folks Successful or help them be successful. I should say not make them help them be successful As a result of the situation they find themselves in life as a result of being exposed to trauma The research is light years ahead of where we were in the 90s and early 2000s And we know that part of that is dignity in self-respect And that's what we're trying to do with with with permanent housing Um, you know, I just when I hear transitional housing. This is what I picture I picture a young lady leaving chitin who's been in jail And they've got two grocery bags or two garbage bags full of clothes And they go to a transitional housing and they're living out of garbage bags In a transitional housing setting that for me is not dignity and self-respect And so we we know what the research tells us. We know what the latest research on trauma informed And the other thing is I appreciate and I do appreciate because I know that Senator hunter does does a lot of work with our staff in springfield and harford But on the committee that reviewed these were individuals that worked in the field We had two individuals who sat on the committee their probation and pro officers and case workers on the ground This was a bottom-up process The change of theory was a bottom-up process It wasn't a top-down process If anybody knows me and knows my history I I often talk the best changes in the organization come from the bottom up And that's what this process was so I really appreciate People's frustration about us going in a different direction But if we're going to follow the guidance from from council state governments justice reinvestment, too And we got to stay loyal to what that research was and that's what we're doing Now, let me just talk, you know And I haven't had a chance to talk directly to Jim Henry, but I do think there's room for us to have conversations Um, if we get to understand what the financial situation is there We have room to talk about that But we've got to get an understanding of your financial situation, Jim To figure out where we can gap that and I encourage you to work with emily and and derrick on that And I know that um commissioner brown is very interested in talking about potentially expanding The youthful offender housing So, um, I mean, I think there's options there to save your business Model, uh, if we can just sit down and talk about financials and figure out where your gap is if we can help out A lot of money. I have some between myself and commissioner brown I think we can put something together that can can recreate too well read for you so Well, that's very hopeful those are my comments Senator white, I just I I still am concerned about the The lack of housing that actually exists and I I work in housing down here and I've seen I I know that there There is no There is no vacancy in Brattleboro, so whether or not um The housing authority or the community justice center or whoever is working with With you I mean, and I'm not saying we shouldn't do this. I I am just I am really concerned that There will not be um the available apartments for people because I can't think of Three apartments in Brattleboro right now that are for rent. I can't I couldn't tell you So and I work in the housing field down here I I appreciate it senator. I'll say it again. I think I was just briefed this morning by Emily Derek and we're making progress already around the stage securing apartments Because we're already making progress around the state securing apartments If you know we're already making progress securing apartments Through people like the Burlington housing authority and I appreciate you're on the ground. I know you're in that business. I understand that um But I often said You know because of the housing life If you're if you're a landlord and you got A young couple that just had a child or registered sex offender. Who do you think you're renting the apartment to? That's why this model the theory of change puts someone in the middle of that In order for us to better manage it and and we know that this is a risk. We understand that um But we're already starting to secure apartments around the state Um as a result of this move Okay Can I oh go ahead senator nitka? I just i'm wondering, you know This is coming at a time when the state is making an any the state and a lot of private providers Are making a tremendous effort to? Get placements for all the people who are in motels right now from covet and so i'm not wondering I'm wondering how does all this kind of mesh with that huge force going on to find housing for those people as well So how's that working? Derek, do you want to take that one? I'd be happy to address that. My name is derrick neodefnick I use he him pronouns on the community and restorative justice executive with the vermont department of corrections Thank you for the opportunity to provide a little more context and detail for what is significantly A a shift and I want to acknowledge that that shift ripples out in in in numerous ways and creates Potential friction points with programs that many of us have come to know over the years to Your question senator nitka In the rfp One of the prominent characteristics Against which programs were scored was clear evidence of the program being connected to the broader homelessness prevention infrastructure in that community often referred to as the continuum of care and that is As I imagine the committee is aware an intentional coordinated set of programs that all look at how Folks can hopefully be prevented from being homeless if they are homeless get immediate services be rapidly rehoused and historically For a couple reasons one of them being that the HUD definition of of Homelessness does not extend to folks who are incarcerated. So it kind of puts DOC funded housing historically is sort of sat outside of the broader Professional community devoted to homeless prevention Historically, there's been kind of no intentional bridging there What we looked at in this rfp process was show us that the program that you run Has a seat at the table and is part of all of these other conversations That are managing that very issue you're talking about so that if somebody is eligible for other HUD funded services That we're not missing that opportunity. We're in fact courted into those structures and it was interesting and surprising to see in some cases that historically Some of those applicants and frankly those were some of the applicants that did not necessarily score well Had no pre-existing connection to the continuum of care So we elevated that as a criteria to address the specific dynamics that you're asking about. Does that make sense senator? Yes, it certainly makes some sense Um, but the bottom line is where are the apartments rooms or whatever? I guess that's the I know, um You know neighborhood works of western vermont did an enormous push on to find housing They had a I think they had it been assigned a hundred homeless folks And they were able to find housing. I think for 84 of them Um, it's 84 or 64. I don't remember the number But it was an enormous push to get those and they still haven't been able to get for everybody. So I don't know. Yeah, this uh, this is definitely part of the um The conditions that we're aware of and that we are going into. Um, it is our Our professional uh belief that by partnering with housing first agencies that bring A landlord relation management, uh, the financial backstop that the state grant presents and and We have also built into these grants. What's called a landlord risk pool So additional funds that really mitigate the risk from the landlord's perspective of excess Losses associated. So we're basically using The relational capital that organizations can develop and the financial capital that the state's provided to make a value added proposition to landlords and um and Experience what we expect to be a greater stability. I recognize that by walking away from those time to get beds Um, that may at face value seem a little counterintuitive in a tight housing market. However, I just want to take one step back and really Uh, emphasize the fact that even though those beds are there the data tells us that the Rate of unsuccessful program exits in those beds was not Uh an effective use of public dollars and not effective for those individuals Uh, we saw a demonstrably higher rate of unsuccessful and unplanned program exits associated with the congregate programs that put those those individuals into a state of crisis and often to pre jri Back uh into prison. So those are outcomes that none of us want despite the fact that yes, those beds are there So yes, we are courting some risk Absolutely, but we are courting risk in response to the known suboptimal outcomes associated with our historical paradigm and we're doing it in a way to try to lean into that risk But not fully as the commissioner said step away from those congregate beds And do that within the context of a balanced budget Emily Higgins and then uh senator white Sorry, I just wanted to expand a tiny bit on what Derek was was saying In that we already have a number of existing partners statewide who provide scattered site apartments So we're not starting from zero. I want to be really clear So for example in brattle borough, we have groundworks collaborative who offers beds in their shelter as emergency housing They have beds at several different projects around town great river terrorists the chalet They they're partnering very closely with the affordable housing provider windham and winsome windham and winsor housing trust to develop project-based opportunities that connect people directly with vouchers that results in permanent housing So yes, we are having to ramp up and increase the number of apartments that we have Dedicated for those re-entering the community. However, we already do have a number of those in place So it's we're adding two or three apartments in a lot of places as opposed to Starting from zero and adding 15 and the net total of of apartments and and beds that we'll be providing statewide Is more than it was Last year more than it currently is So I want us to be careful about saying we're losing 90 beds. We're we're shifting capacity In a different direction, but we're actually ending up with more opportunities and more local housing For people in their home communities senator white so Do I understand that you're doing this on a? on a Not all at once that you're you're really um I guess my fear is for example in um And I I work for the housing authority in brattleboro. So I I do know about those partnerships and I know about the housing in brattleboro But um, I guess my question is if you for example closed down Phoenix house right now in brattleboro, and I don't know how many people are living there right now that would There aren't apartments right now for those people and and so if it's done on a gradual basis and people are the Beds are only shut down as you find apartments for people that makes More sense to me than just closing the beds Because I'm thinking um commissioner baker you you said so if you're a landlord and you have You can rent to somebody coming out of prison or you can rent to this nice young couple that just had a baby Who would you rent to? and I Understand that having somebody in between there allows The landlord to but what happens to the nice young couple with the baby? They have no apartment. And so my concern is that we need to do this as alice said On a gradual basis so that we aren't they're still 16 people that In senator nica was talking about that are looking for houses and I know we have people in brattleboro looking for Apartments and I fear that if we just do this all at once that we will We will Anyway, that that's a that's a real fear that I have All right, I hear your concern. I hear your concern. I'm gonna let Emily talk about the transitional period in a minute Okay, I hear I hear your concern And if I could just Yeah, go ahead if I could just throw in one thing I think we may have to shift gears in a few minutes, but But sorry Emily when you when you answer I'm wondering if you could Respond to everybody from doc has talked about there being a risk And I think everyone's in agreement on that. What what is the plan? in the event that Things don't go the way you are expecting I know that you never want to Build a plan b as you're building plan a because it calls into question plan a but I'm remembering our experience closing down the state hospital Senator benning and I were involved in trying to get more beds And we we sort of lost that fight it turned out later that we did need significantly more beds Is there a is there a thought in place about what to do if senator white and senator nidka proved Correct in their worries Sure, I can say that we're being very intentional about that. Um, so for example With phoenix house of new england, um, they still will have at least 25 beds in vermont funded through adab And we have met with their vermont manager with all of our local probation and parole offices who have phoenix house sites And we have talked specifically about transition planning for residents in those houses phoenix house has stated explicitly that they would like to keep people there if possible and fund them with adab because they're these clients are Mutual clients in most cases So we are working Intensively with every provider around making sure existing residents Are not exited to homelessness, of course And are exited to a stable apartment Or transitioned in a different way So that's a huge part of the work that's ongoing and we've been working on that for At least a month a couple months in many cases and we'll continue to do that through the transition So that's our top priority Thanks Okay Well Thank you all. Is there any further questions from the committee? Seeing none I'd like to thank you all for being here. I know senator steers is very Concerned about this. Um, unfortunately he had the conference committee for the budget at the same time Um, senator sears. Do you want to close out? Yeah, I just kind of closed my other meeting SSI treatment and still provide You can hear senator kitchell Do you I was not While we're waiting can I comment that will you look a lot like charlie? Oh, thank you I've never noticed that before No All right, I would thank all of you and I did Follow some of the conversation. I think actually it's been a helpful conversation to have Appreciate the folks from corrections and will hunter and Jim henry for joining us this morning Um, and I'm sorry. I missed the last 20 25 minutes. Um, I did try to keep track of both meetings, but Um, anyway Such as life under zoom. Thank you. Thanks folks. Thank you very much So let's