 This week on the anxious truth We're gonna look at how we really can choose a different response to anxiety and fear even in our most triggered moments But why this choice point can be so difficult to acknowledge or envision for yourself. So let's get to it Hello, everybody. Welcome back to the anxious truth. This is episode number 289 of the podcast We are recording in mid-April of 2024. I am Drew linsellata creator and host of the anxious truth and as of this recording date I am still a therapist and training working on it every darn day at this point in The state of New York in the USA specializing in anxiety and anxiety disorders I'm also a podcaster on this topic obviously because you're listening to a podcast on this topic and I'm the one doing it I'm also an author psycho educator an advocate and a former sufferer because I suffered from anxiety disorders clinical depression and Probably diagnosable OCD although I never did go and get a diagnosis for many years of my life on and off So aside from my training and my general knowledge in this area There's also my experience which means I kind of have lived the things I've talked about Which I like to think makes a difference and hopefully makes me more useful Speaking of which if this is your first time listening to the podcast or watching on YouTube I hope you do find it helpful. I'm doing my best here. And of course if you are a returning listener, welcome back I'm glad you're here always appreciative of when you spend time with me this week We're gonna talk about the fact that there really is a point at which we can make a different choice in How to respond to anxiety and panic and scary thoughts and scary symptoms But also why it's so difficult to acknowledge that that choice point really exists And why it's so difficult to start to get your brain around it and get in touch with it But before we do just a very fast reminder that there are way more resources available than just this one podcast episode There are books that I've written. There are inexpensive workshops and courses. There's all my social media content There's 288 previous podcast episodes. There's the disordered podcast I do every Friday with my friend Josh Fletcher All of those things can be found on my website at the anxious truth calm So when you get a moment if you want more than just this go check it out I work hard to try to make all that content relevant Applicable and useful. I'd like to think I'm doing a decent job, but go check it out yourself and evaluate yourself of all the resources Thank you so much. However way you decide to follow along and support the work that I do So let's talk about the choice point that moment that Actually does exist when we are in a triggered state where we really can Make a choice to respond in a different way to anxiety or panic or scary thoughts or scary symptoms Now the choice point is a thing that we see discussed in a lot of different places in mental health and wellness and personal development circles And in our context, we're gonna draw our inspiration from the paradoxical intention intervention that Victor Frankel He wrote man's search for meaning and he sort of invented logotherapy He incorporated paradoxical intention into his model of logotherapy. What is paradoxical intention? Well, it reveals the choice point which is either resist or allow as a central concept Upon which we kind of build a recovery model a therapist who's using Frankel's paradoxical intention intervention We'll ask a client to go toward or engage with their scary thoughts or behavior The paradox is that this exercise is designed to be triggering It's supposed to create anxiety and fear Which is something that most clients have been working hard to not do that's the paradox sound familiar now Here's where the choice point comes in when a client is triggered during a paradoxical intention Intervention with a therapist that therapist then plays the role of sort of coach We're there to discourage avoidance and escape responses and encourage you to explore alternate reactions The therapist is there to help the client make different choices when triggered Choices there's that word. So I'm picking this particular intervention out of logotherapy Not because I'm a huge logotherapy fan But because it clearly illustrates that the idea of a choice point and I bet as we go This is starting to sound even more familiar if you've been hanging around the podcast for any amount of time or maybe reading my books When we choose alternate reactions and responses in that triggered state We are directly addressing the fear of fear one of the hallmarks of disorder anxiety We are challenging the idea that feeling anxious or afraid is intolerable and must be avoided at all costs These alternate reactions help us learn that we don't have to fear the anxiety the scary sensations the scary thoughts Or even the fear itself as much as we probably have for the past few weeks or months or in some cases Unfortunately, even years are you following so far? Doesn't this start to look a whole lot like exposure and response prevention? I mean, you could practically hear Claire week saying utter utter acceptance, right? Can you hear me repeating the word surrender again and again until you guys are sick of hearing it? Maybe the phrase willful tolerance is in your head when you hear about like sort of paradoxical intention therapy technique that I just described Yeah, it looks very much like the recipe for an exposure exercise Because really when you get down to brass tacks lots of different types of therapy include some form of Facing accepting and even exposure to some degree. So it's not really a mystery that this is sounding familiar But that's not really our issue today And if you want to listen to the latest episode of disorder that that Josh and I did The one that's called what recovery lens are you're looking through that talks about how different types of therapy and different Theoretical frameworks kind of all start to mix together and get used in recovery. That might be interesting to you Today our issue is not really so much that our issue today is that many in our community wind up frustrated Because they will insist that when triggered by anxious sensations or thoughts or fears They have no choice. So when they hear me and people like me talk about choice point to be like no it doesn't exist for them Running is the only possible and plausible action begging to be rescued is the only thing that can be done Resistance is automatic There is no possible way to surrender drop the resistance float accept willfully tolerate whatever words you'd like to use From that point of view these things are implausible unthinkable and impossible and from that point of view We often hear all of the how questions for instance, how can I accept that? But how am I supposed to tolerate that? But how can I drop my resistance to that? How can I possibly not run or possibly ask to not be saved from these horrible thoughts and feeling? How am I even supposed to do this thing that is outside of the realm of my experience and seems even ridiculous? Now if these sort of sound familiar to you what i'm here to tell you again as I do in most episodes is don't worry It's actually not just you Almost everyone is going to start from a place where the idea of allowing these awful sensations and these thoughts Seems completely and utterly absurd So you might be thinking surely you are not asking me to allow the worst to happen to me And the answer is yes, that's what I and people like me are asking of you That may sound ridiculous because it seems like allow the worst, but we know that the worst doesn't actually happen And we are well aware that this is a very big ask primarily because it initially makes zero common sense And then it requires courage and the fact that you have to take brave leaps of faith in air quotes Because you're sort of following those that have accepted floated surrendered and willy willfully tolerated that came before you You are making these brave leaps of faith. We understand this is a big ask But here's the rub so we can acknowledge that The rub is that we are all free to choose the paths that we Feel best fit sort of our circumstances and our context and our experiences You may feel right now as you listen to me that the only possible reaction to anxiety and fear is to run Or maybe you think you have to forcibly regulate your nervous system or at least try to do that Or maybe you feel like you have to avoid triggers or you have to find ways to manage your anxiety symptoms manage and air quotes And your thoughts right that's okay. You're allowed to make that choice But it is very difficult to make that choice while also listening to a podcast or youtube channel like this one That continually contradicts those beliefs, but I understand how that can really put you in a weird spot So I want to acknowledge that If we are to go down a path of recovery Based on the concepts that you hear in this podcast or in my books or in my workshops or wherever The first job is that you have to at least consider the possibility That having no choice in triggered moments might be an incorrect belief Now i'm not saying that you have to totally abandon your core beliefs about recovery right this very moment It's okay to be skeptical. In fact, it's sort of natural to be that way, especially in the early stages. That's except It's expected. It's accepted. It's okay But if you find that for an extended period of time You are continually digging in and insisting that there must be specific techniques and steps for being brave and doing scary things Because otherwise this concept makes no sense Then you run the risk of becoming frustrated and feeling like there's something wrong with you because you can't get it air quotes And that nothing works for you So what folks like me are suggesting Is that you maybe just start to work on softening your stance? Just a little and at least consider that maybe there is a choice point Even when that point is tiny and lasts for only a few seconds But that it actually does exist And it usually is going to take a while to change that belief which is fine If you believe that that choice point simply does not exist and this is ridiculous It will take you a while to just begin to maybe open yourself up to the possibility that Maybe there is really a choice point and maybe your core beliefs are wrong. It's okay if it takes a while. That's okay There's no rush But we do have to start by adopting a bit more of an open stance toward that idea That the unthinkable and impossible may in fact be well, I guess thinkable and possible So rather than asking how to do what you might see as the impossible making your choice rather than surrender Let's look at why it seems so ridiculous to consider this option. So instead of how let's look at why When that first flash of fear hits and claire weeks of your dr. Weeks fan, she called it first fear and it makes sense All humans when first fear hits that first flash of fear and triggering hits All humans are thrust into a state where sort of the emotional part of the brain is in charge That's when we get run, you know get out of here. We got to get help like omg This is really bad. That is the natural and expected first reaction For all humans including non disordered and fully recovered humans. We all have that initial reaction That's baked in. We don't get to turn that off Now in those moments You will see no choice in front of you primarily because you are emotionally reasoning The feelings are so strong and feel so urgent in those moments That's suggesting that they might be steering you wrong Is almost equal in your brain to suggesting that you can flap your arms and fly around the room, right? I get that emotional reasoning is a powerful thing And you may be tempted then in a state of emotional reasoning You're gonna say but this feels so dangerous and real. I simply cannot Possibly allow such strong feelings. It's impossible Well, guess what welcome to two core beliefs here that stand between you and this approach to anxiety recovery And again, you're free to not take this approach That would be okay I would still respect you and like root for you as one human being to another But if you find that you're like, I don't understand why I just can't get this You may have just been confronted with two core beliefs that stand between you and this particular theoretical orientation Those two core beliefs are number one Feelings must be real, especially when they're so powerful and then they must be completely followed And core belief number two is I know myself perfectly. You cannot challenge myself knowledge Like that that sink in for a second. Those are two really powerful core beliefs So accepting that there is a choice point where one becomes aware of the first fear response air quotes Steps back Gets a little bit of wiggle room and then goes into surrender mode is really difficult It requires that you examine and challenge These two core beliefs That your feelings are real, especially the big powerful ones and therefore must be followed And that you know yourself perfectly and that that knowledge should not be challenged or questioned So is it any wonder that so many of us then I was you at one point I had this problem too wind up stuck for longer periods of time Insisting that there must be more to this equation because it cannot be at its base value What I'm saying it is And now that we have sort of a spotlight shining on these core beliefs We got to take a moment to acknowledge where they come from Right, they come from your past experiences. They come from your self image They come from the people that in your life that have taught you things good or bad These core beliefs develop over time based on a large number of sort of social or family Experiential or cultural or heritage inputs how you see yourself How you see the world how you see other people these all enter into the picture And also we're now immersed in an environment where we are told dairy daily Every want unwanted emotion every unwanted internal experience everything negative should be and can be fixed immediately and engineered out of our lives We are being bombarded all the time now with brain body and emotion sort of hacks again air quotes That are thrown at us at us on the daily if we do any kind of scrolling at all on social media platforms So core beliefs exist for a reason a lot of reasons and we kind of have to acknowledge that because We have to acknowledge it if we're being fair with ourselves here But also this doesn't make those core beliefs unassailable or unchangeable That's another one of those things that you have to sort of let sink in just a little bit We can acknowledge that Initially this approach to recovery may violate those two big core beliefs and that those things come They they exist for good reason But we also have to say yeah, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they are Unchangeable and unchallengeable forever Because if you want to insist that those beliefs are unassailable or unchangeable then this will frustrate you But here is what I can give you today if you're struggling in this situation right now Right if you are sure that you must be missing something or that there must be more instructions or steps or techniques or tips That will clarify this unthinkable thing Consider that you're being asked to challenge two very strong core beliefs So is it any wonder why you think there must be more this can't possibly be right? Then maybe ask yourself when those core beliefs may have been wrong in other situations in your life So these are all relatable for most people right at least in western cultures Have there been times in your life in the past where big feelings have steered you wrong Like have you ever been say like in a fight with a friend like your best friend or a loved one or a family member or a romantic partner And then find yourself later on regretting your actions or even apologizing Maybe you said some things you wish you didn't say because you were in a really emotional state and you were following those big feelings What felt so sure and correct in the heat of an emotional reasoned moment Wasn't so cool like in the light of the next day when we've sort of calmed down and our emotional brains aren't Ruling the roost like this is a universal experience that most people will understand I can't believe I said that I should not have said that listen. I'm really sorry. I went too far I was super triggered. I was having a bad day. I didn't handle myself very well. I'm really sorry Your big feelings Steered steered you wrong every one of us understands that experience And then if you look at the other core belief, which is I know myself It's this is impossible for me. Stop telling me what I can do I get that I respect your self-knowledge and self-awareness. I do But think about times when you have maybe surprised yourself because you were sure you wouldn't like something But then turned out that you really did like it Or maybe you were 100 convinced that you are an awful singer But then discovered that like you practiced a little bit and home. Oh my goodness. You can actually sing Or maybe you've decided that you were you know, like i'm just a terrible cook. That's me, right? I'm a terrible cook and then you kind of discover like accidentally by sort of stumbling through and having different Experiences and opening yourself a little bit up to that stuff that you actually really can make sort of a solid rack of ribs This is another time where you can look back and say Oh wait my insistence that I know myself best and that is unchallengeable that turned out to be wrong Like if I opened myself up a little bit, I discovered new things about myself I was sure that I listen talk about me specifically in this situation. You guys might be able to relate to this I would have told you for many many years that I can't cook worth the hill of beans Listen, I'm never going to be Gordon Ramsay. He ain't going to see me opening restaurants But as it turns out as I've tried to cook more over the last couple of years, I'm not too horrible at it I was wrong I I like hung big parts of myself image. I'm like, I can't cook almost as a joke But like it became ingrained in me and I was wrong about that So I would urge you if you're struggling with the idea That you do have a choice Even in the most triggered moments if you feel like this is ridiculous. This makes no sense. It's unthinkable and impossible Remember that it's because of these core beliefs about feelings and the need to follow them Especially when they feel so urgent and real And also that self-knowledge it like no no no I I know it's it isn't possible for me. It might be possible for everyone else all other seven billion of you But for me drew it's not possible The idea the core belief that that is truth forever and can't be challenged You're up against these these core beliefs Just think about sometimes in your life when maybe those core beliefs turned out to be not so true in the end, right? So the takeaway here after almost 19 minutes because they're trying to wrap these up between 15 to 20 minutes of possible Is that feelings the even big urgent powerful feelings? I've often said that anxious thoughts and feelings are strong But quite often almost always wrong Feelings are not always correct, right? We do not Always know ourselves perfectly like we think we do. We're wrong about this stuff all the time So maybe take just a little time to think about when you've experienced this in other parts of your life We all have Then think again a little bit just be a little bit soft or a little more open about your two assertions About following feelings and knowing that this is not possible for you and that that is unchangeable and unchallengeable This might help it's not going to change your life today It isn't going to make you feel better today isn't going to make you recover today But this might help you open up just a little bit today If you can be just a little bit softer and a little bit more willing to accept the possibility that a choice point really does exist Even when highly triggered then congratulations You're winning if you're starting to just turn and face in a little bit of a different direction Because you're willing to be a little bit more open and maybe explore that possibility Take the win put it on your fridge. You're doing a good job Just remember while you do this that this is a really big shift and it's going to take some time And ultimately you're really not going to fully believe In what i'm saying in these podcasts and writing in my books and in workshops and whatnot until you do take those brave leaps of faith So you got to be patient with yourself You have to resist the urge to berate yourself for not getting it I cannot tell you how many times I hear that every day. What's wrong with me I just can't seem to get it. There must be more steps. There has to be more instructions. Explain it more. Give me another metaphor Give me text about accepting You know, I said it before and i'm going to say it again These are big asks ASKS let me clarify that coming from people like me We are asking you to challenge some very deeply held beliefs and to challenge some very ingrained patterns, right? That just doesn't happen overnight So yes, there is in fact a choice point even though that choice point is tiny It only lasts a few seconds It might seem impossible because of those emotionally reasoned core beliefs, but it is there Now you may end this podcast episode and say nope He's wrong and you are welcome to do that again I will still root for you But just know that if you are finding like feeling like you're beating your head against the wall Because you want to hang on to those core beliefs and insist that this is impossible and also continue to ask For this type of recovery Using these principles you can stop beating your head against the wall pick one Pick one at least for today then open yourself a little bit more or just close the door and say i'm not ready for this yet It's not fair for you to keep beating your head against the wall when you are ready. You're ready. That's okay That's allowed be patient. Be kind. We ain't going anywhere Podcasts is still going to be there when you reach that point you reach that point and no matter what Everyone in your life should sort of root for you no matter what choices you're making right you are not I'm here to tell you that you can get better I'm not here to convince you that you must do it today and that you must do it this way that wouldn't be cool so That's about it. That's episode 289 sort of in the books and you know it's over because It's that music again So i'm gonna wrap it up here. Hopefully i've given you some things to think about today Again, not full of like hey, this is how you recover. Here's top five tips to stop a panic attack But this stuff is useful because these little incremental things do make a difference as we go like they matter So think about it try to take it on think about those times when your core beliefs have been wrong It might make a difference for you today And if you are listening to this podcast On apple podcast or spotify where you can leave a rating and review leave a five star rating if you really dig it Maybe take a second and write a review because that helps more people find the podcast and that really helps me out And it helps other members of the community out Of course, you're listening on youtube or watching on youtube subscribe to the channel Like the video hit the thumbs up hit the bell so you know when I upload new stuff Ask a question or leave a comment on the video. I go back two times a week and answer all of them I may not be able to get into protracted discussions, but I do interact on youtube So that's a good place to ask questions about what you just heard And remember as always no matter how you might be struggling today Like I said in this episode any little shift that moves you a little bit closer to the recovery path and the life that you value And away from those knee jerk reactions to fear counts every one of them Do not discount them pat yourself on the back root for yourself be nice to yourself keep going I know you could do it. Thanks for listening. I'll see you back here in two weeks And I'll see you on disordered on friday. Take care