 on OC-16, Hawaii's weekly newscast on Things That Matter to Tech, and to Hawaii. I'm Elise Anderson. And I'm Nicole Horry. In our show this time, we'll visit the January meeting of the Science Cafe, which featured a presentation by Dr. Alan Tokunaga of the Institute for Astronomy, IFA, at UH Manoa. Dr. Tokunaga talked about the design and goals of the 30-meter telescope, TMT, which still has a chance to be built on Mauna Kea. The Science Cafe customarily meets for a dinner meeting at JJ's Beestrow on Waili Avenue in Kaimuki. The meeting at which Dr. Tokunaga spoke was on Tuesday, January 17th. The TMT telescope that Dr. Tokunaga spoke about is the newest step in over 400 years of astronomical telescope development. It uses very advanced mirror technology and would create viewing and research opportunities that would be unmatched in the Northern Hemisphere. The TMT is a global collaboration of scientists and educators from the United States, Canada, Japan, China and India, and will undertake frontline studies of topics such as the origin of the universe and the search for Earth-like planets. The proposed construction of this telescope just below the summit of Mauna Kea is on hold, pending the results of a second contested case hearing before the Board of Land and Natural Resources, BLNR. In the meantime, we need to continue the conversation as a community to determine if we would want to support a project like this in the future. Historically, astronomy using telescopes on the slopes of our mountains is something that has made Hawaii, IFA, and the University of Hawaii world famous. Dr. Tokunaga comes from Maui. He obtained his PhD at the State University of Hawaii, and he is now a member of the University of Hawaii, and he is currently a member of the University of Hawaii, and he is currently a member of the University of Hawaii, and he is now a member of the University of Hawaii, and he comes from Maui. He obtained his PhD at the State University of New York, SUNY at Stony Brook. He is the former director of the NASA Infrared Telescope Facility on Mauna Kea, and is a specialist in infrared astronomy and instrumentation. We were glad to be able to attend Dr. Tokunaga's talk. It was both informative and provocative. Here are some excerpts. From the astronomers' point of view, there isn't time to go into the complete story of the controversy, but many astronomers or people in the astronomy community like myself are sympathetic to some of the issues that the opposition is raising. There is a long history and we're cognizant of that, but all the same, we think this is a great telescope to have at Mauna Kea and has many benefits for science and for the community. So these are the topics I'll be discussing. Mauna Kea, YUI, TMT, some very briefly some of the legal hurdles that exist right now. The importance of the telescope to Hawaii, and is there a resolution? I can't really answer the last question, but I'll present some thoughts on it. So Mauna Kea is possibly the best site, or is the best site in the Northern Hemisphere and possibly the best site in the world. It depends on what metric you use for measuring the quality of the site. Impact on astronomy is significant. Mauna Kea observatories produce roughly 40% of all the citations in astronomical papers. And then finally, the observatories, not just the TMT, but observatories presently there provide work and educational opportunities. And this is very significant. Especially in this state where there's always talk about how they want to promote high technology in this state. And there's nothing greater than this, the astronomical observatories in the high tech industry in Hawaii. Okay, so why TMT? The simple answer is bigger is better. Not always, but in this case, bigger is better. So obviously, a bigger telescope allows you to collect more light. This feature is extremely important for the study of cosmology, that is the origin of the universe. And secondly, with adaptive optics, which removes the turbulence in the atmosphere, the telescope can get a sharper image. In fact, the image will be at what we call the diffraction limit of the telescope. Now diffraction is a property of light that limits the sharpness of the image, because there's interference from the light rays. But the physics is such that the larger the mirror is, the sharper the image you can get. It's a linear relation. So adaptive optics makes it very appealing to have larger and larger telescopes because we can preserve the sharpness of the image and work at the limit of optical quality that the telescope can provide and not be limited by the atmosphere. There are two things that the TMT, the 30 meter telescope will improve. One is that being three times bigger, the collecting area will be about 10 times larger. And also being roughly three times bigger than the Keck telescopes, the angular resolution will be three times bigger. The decision had to be made of what's the optimum size of the next generation telescope should be 30 meters, 40 meters. What should it be? RB. Really big telescope. Really big telescope is one name. Oh, you'll see some other. Another name is Extremely Large Telescope. You'll see that coming up. And at one time there was an overwhelmingly large telescope. The point of having sharper images, one of the great things is that it allows imaging of exoplanets. These are planets that are around other stars. The need for a larger aperture, this shows an image taken by the Hubble telescope and it's one of the deepest images ever made by the Hubble telescope. And pretty much everything you see in this image is a galaxy. And what the TMT can do is to obtain a spectrum of each of these galaxies because the aperture is so large. And that allows the astronomer to get an idea of how far away the galaxy is and the physical conditions in these galaxies. And the frontier of research in cosmology is to understand how galaxies formed in the early universe and how they evolved. And the TMT will have, and that will be one of the main scientific objectives of the telescope. Okay, another example is very recently a Earth-sized planet was discovered around a star named Proxima Santari. This planet is called Proxima B. So this is an artist's conception of the planet around a star. This planet is about four light years away from the Earth. It's the nearest planet discovered. So I think that when it becomes feasible to send a spacecraft to the nearest star this is what they'll be looking for. Telescope was invented in around 1609 and soon thereafter, within months, I think, Galileo used it, was the first to use it for astronomical observations. The Europeans have opted for a 39-meter telescope. It's called a European Extremely Large Telescope. And it will also be built in Chile. Around 2025, all of these projects hope to have their telescopes finished. But they all have their own unique problems. And so we'll have to see how it all plays out. For example, the large European telescope, the Extremely Large Telescope needs another partner to have the full aperture. And in the absence of another partner, they will have a smaller number of mirrors in their telescope. So the effective area of the telescope will be less than 39 meters. Now whether they can actually complete the project or not, we'll have to see. The European telescope is funded purely by governments, primarily Europe. The giant Magellan Telescope is funded by consortium of private and public funding. There are some countries like Korea and Australia involved in this, but also institutions like the Carnegie Institution, Harvard University, the University of Texas. So it's a combination and some private money also. Okay, so just a few words about the 30-meter telescope. So it's operated as a nonprofit organization. And then the partners consist of the California Institute of Technology, University of California, Canada, Japan, China, and India. So this is also an example of mixed private and public funding. The land that it will be built on is the least land from DNLR. And the university is in charge of that area. And so there's a lease agreement that involves the University of Hawaii. But we're not a partner and the University of Hawaii is not contributing... That's right, not contributing money to the project. And officials from the University of California and the California Institute of Technology came over frequently to talk to the community, to assure them to explain the project and listen to their concerns. So a lot of preliminary discussions went on to leading up to granting of the permit. On a basis that the permit was granted before conducting a contested case hearing. And the Supreme Court agreed with the plaintiff that this was incorrect and that the construction permit was invalid. So the contested case hearing is underway in Hilo. But just recently, in the last month, a new legal challenge came up in which the sub-lease agreement itself for the TMT was challenged because the hearing was not granted to the plaintiff in 2014. So the UH is appealing this ruling. A ruling was made in favor of the plaintiff and the UH is appealing this ruling. The Canary Islands are part of Spain and are off the coast of Africa. And there's some similarities to Hawaii. They're volcanic islands and surrounded by ocean. Another major site for astronomy is Chile, which is in the southern hemisphere. And Phil asked about the differences between the northern and southern hemispheres. Currently, two of the three next-generation large telescopes we've built in Chile. That's the giant Magellan telescope and the European extremely large telescope. So having another next-generation telescope in the northern hemisphere, whether preferably in Hawaii, but if in the Canary Islands, it provides coverage of the northern hemisphere, which I believe is one of the reasons the northern hemisphere site was selected. Currently, it's about $60 million per year of expenditures on a big island, about $90 million in the state. Another center for astronomy is on Haleakala. But the big island has the bulk of the expenditures in astronomy. And this is a chart that came from an economic impact report. And you can see the economic impact of astronomy compared to other industries and economic activities. Now, if the TMT comes to Hawaii, it's a $1.4 billion or $1.5 billion project. It will have an operating budget of about $30 million per year. So this $60 million per year on a big island will increase to $90 million. And the impact, economic impact, this includes spending and the associated benefits of the spending. So it's just below $200 million per year. This could be approaching $300 million if the TMT came to Hawaii. Now, in addition, the TMT project will make annual contributions of $1 million per year to the Office of Monetary Care Management, which manages the summit area, not only for astronomy, but for all public uses. And also to OHA, $1 million a year to educational programs in a big island and $1 million a year for a jobs program for local Hawaiians. So there is a significant effort being made on the TMT project to provide direct benefits to the local community. Now, is there a resolution? Well, as you know, the issues are very emotional and complex. And the media tends to focus on the opposition. And I'd like to point out that there are many Hawaiians who favor the telescope. Here's a quotation that I got from a report of the hearings going on in Hilo. Chad Babayan is a Hokulea navigator, and he said during the contested hearing, I'm a modern Hawaiian. I believe in my traditions. I believe in my culture. But I think that's consistent with our progression to be highly reflective and highly motivated to learn about the world we live in. And so we ally ourselves with the tradition of curiosity and exploration. So basically, this is a very elegant statement of the fact that the Hawaiians never rejected Western technology or culture. They made use of it to their advantage. Decisions have to be made. Not everyone is going to be happy. I hope the telescope can be built here. And that the young people of the state of Hawaii can benefit from projects like this. And so this is the last slide from the Astro Day in Hilo. I think at the fundamental level, the telescope is about the future. So I hope some way can be found to bring the telescope to Hawaii. The talk at the Science Cafe is by no means the end of it. We'll invite Dr. Tokunaga down to our studio for a talk show on the subject. And we also hope to take our cameras to Mauna Kea sometime later this year and see it first hand in another show on ThinkTech on OC16. So stay tuned for lots more on TMT. Here at ThinkTech, we have long promoted the idea of a diversified economy. We want local people to be able to get better paying jobs that aren't dependent on tourism. It's clear that the researchers involved in this project thought it was truly beneficial to the Hawaiian community and something we'd be happy to get. Given the opposition to the project, however, which grew as construction began, TMT has now designated the Canary Islands as their backup location. Well, opinions about this project changed. Now that people know the lease rent would have provided millions of dollars to the state and the native Hawaiian community. This wasn't heavily publicized before, but it was part of the initial agreement. Since it's an international consortium, money from taxpayers in California, Canada, Japan, and the rest of the consortium would have been infused into Hawaii's economy. Projects like this are very sensitive to community input. These projects are for science and have no profit motive at all. And they can only happen if we can find a way to see them as something that strengthens our community rather than divides us and causes us pain. We will lose the TMT, along with its potential benefits for Hawaii Island, UH, and the state in general, unless we and our leaders can come to terms and rally the community behind this important project. The researchers chose a less convenient building site, specifically to keep the telescope dome from being visible from the summit. They have demonstrated their willingness to work through the process, jumping through all the hoops and holding all the hearings that were required of them. With the money they have been providing for education on the Big Island, we can see that they have been trying hard to be good neighbors. We will lose so many projects in the future unless we can get legitimate community input and consensus early in the game, maintain the consensus that is thus achieved, and most importantly, show project developers that they can count on permits issued by Hawaii state agencies. And yes, we do need leadership on the issue. Not only the words of Dr. Tokunaga and his colleagues at IFA, not only the words of UH at Manoa, at Hilo, and at Mauna Kea, but also the words of the legislature and the governor, David Ige, to help us understand the real benefits and impacts so that we can see if big projects are worth supporting. We will need their leadership for making these choices. If you want to know more about IFA, check out ifa.hawaii.edu. If you want to know more about the TMT, visit tmt.org. If you want to know more about what state government has done or not done to support TMT, Google TMT Hawaii Government. If you want to know more about the steps the TMT consortium has been forced to take to look into other venues, Google TMT Chile or TMT Canary Islands. We hope the citizens of Hawaii will see that the TMT could have brought real benefits to Hawaii Islands, to the economy of our state, and to global science that seeks to expand the boundaries of knowledge about the universe and the origins of life itself. Supporting science is critical to our future and our relevance. In the long term and in the larger sense, nothing could be more important. We all need to understand and weigh the pros and cons of TMT and other scientific projects in Hawaii and to speak up on this subject. How do you feel about it? Do you feel you can speak up? What role should science have in Hawaii's future? And now let's take a look at our ThinkTech calendar of events going forward. There's so much happening in Hawaii. Sometimes things happen under the radar and we don't hear much about them. But ThinkTech will take you there. Remember, you can watch ThinkTech on OC16 several times every week to stay current on what's happening in government, industry, academia and communities around the island and around the world. ThinkTech broadcasts its daily talk shows live on the internet from 11 a.m. to 5 p.m. on weekdays. Then we broadcast our earlier shows all night long and on the weekends. If you missed a show or if you want to replay or share any of our shows, they're all archived on demand on ThinkTechHawaii.com and YouTube. The audio is on ThinkTechHawaii.com slash radio. And good news, we're now posting podcasts of all our shows on iTunes. See our website for links. Visit ThinkTechHawaii.com for our weekly calendar and live stream and YouTube links. Or sign up on our email list and get the daily docket of our upcoming shows. ThinkTech has a high-tech, green-screen First Amendment studio at Pioneer Plaza. If you want to join our live audience or participate in our shows, write to Think at ThinkTechHawaii.com. Give us a thumbs up on YouTube or send us a tweet at ThinkTechHI. We'd like to know how you feel about the issues and events that affect our lives together in these islands. We want to stay in touch with you and we'd like you to stay in touch with us. Let's think together. Call into our talk shows live. While you're watching any of our shows, you can call into 415-871-2474 and post a question or participate in the discussion. We'll be right back to wrap up this week's edition of ThinkTech. But first, we want to thank our underwriters. Hey Nicole, that wraps up this week's edition of ThinkTech. Remember, you can watch ThinkTech on OC16 several times every week. Can't get enough of it just like Nicole does. For additional times, check out OC16.tv. For lots more ThinkTech videos and for underwriting and sponsorship opportunities on ThinkTech, visit ThinkTechHawaii.com. Be a guest or a host, a producer or an intern and help us reach and have an impact on Hawai'i. Thanks so much for being part of our ThinkTech family and for supporting our open discussion of tech, energy, diversification and global awareness in Hawai'i. You can watch this show throughout the week and tune in next Sunday evening for our next important weekly episode. I'm Elisa Anderson and I'm Nicole Horry. Aloha everyone!