 The Senate finally agrees for INEC to transmit elections electronically. The upper chamber also approved direct primaries for political parties and a move which the People's Democratic Party described as retrogressive. Anacoste, Secretary of the Southwest Agenda for Asiwaju Swaga, speaks on the movement for bringing you a recorded version of it. Stay with us because this is PlusPolitik and I am Mary Anacoste. The Senate has passed a bill to rescind its decision which subjected the Independent National Electoral Commission, INEC, to seek approval from the Nigerian Communications Commission before it could transmit elections result electronically. Now the Senate also voted in support of the conduct of party primaries only by direct method. Meanwhile, the People's Democratic Party PDP has described the approval of direct primaries for all political parties by the Senate as retrogressive. Joining us to break this down is journalist Carl Cinedu. We also have political analyst Achike Chude and Nick Agoulet. Thank you very much, gentlemen, for joining us. Thank you very much. All right. I'll start with you, Mr. Chude. Let's look at the issue of direct primaries. It's been brought up before while the Senate was still mauling over the Electoral Act bill before it becomes law. Many kicked against it and many applauded it as a way of deepening democracy. But what are your thoughts? My thoughts are, what thoughts are found at the Senate in regard to the... ...to direct primaries? With the approval for electronic... No, for direct primaries. For direct primaries. Okay. Well, I mean, there are different course of thoughts. Some of the members of the other political parties are of the view that the Senate... ...that the political parties should be allowed to choose the kind of primaries, you know, that they are comfortable with. You know, so it's not something that has been received with mixed results. But beyond that, I think, look, even within the kind of primaries that it's decided upon, I think to a very large extent, I would say that for as long as... I mean, the political parties are spending independence and that they're in a position to meet... ...the rules for themselves on how they want to go about doing... ...about their activities and the political parties. You know, it should have been my view, really, that they be allowed to make a choice... ...on what system they want to use for their primaries. But regardless of that, no matter the system that is given, even within the context of that system that is chosen... ...you know, they can always go out of their way to ensure that there is free exercise... ...of the democratic franchise within taking the parties. Of course, you know that internal party issues have been the brain of most of the political parties. I've seen the advent of democracy from 1990s to 1990s. Most of the parties have been accused of not having internal democratic party mechanisms. And so even if that decision has been taken on their behalf by the Senate, they can still go ahead... ...regardless of that and see and ensure that their primaries are born in a way that is free... ...and developed of Franco and of Penet. I do not think it is so much of a big deal. Interesting. Carl, you're a journalist. A lot of people, like... ...I've spoken about this with some people, especially members of the PDP, who seem to be kicking against it... ...say that every party does have a constitution that the members of the party abide by... ...and they're saying they have a choice to decide if they want to have direct primaries... ...or they want to have consensus candidates. I mean, even the APC, I think one of the members, former councillors or chairman here in Lagos... ...if I'm not mistaken, has asked that the party allow for consensus candidates in some of the primaries... ...which is something that most political parties have the right to do. So if the PDP seems to be not okay with this... ...why do you think that the Senate is pushing this down the throats of the political parties? Let's not forget that the Senate is also, of course, a field of members... ...who are caught across the APC and the PDP, who have different styles of primaries. I think that I'm not interested in other parties in this election. Parties are just now. Carl, it's very difficult to hear you. I don't know what the problem is. I think we're having connection issues. But I'll throw the question to Mr. Agoule, who's just joining us. Let's see if we can fix Carl's line. Mr. Agoule, the PDP is saying that this is not in any way deepening the democracy in the country... ...and, of course, internal party democracies. They think that this is retrogressive for the democratic process that they are pointing to... ...since 1999 until now. They do not understand why the National Assembly is choosing to toll this line. What are your thoughts? Mr. Agoule, can you hear me? I think we're also having connection issues with Agoule. Let's move on to other issues. Now, let's talk about the transmission of results. This has been an issue, and this is for you, Achike, because you seem to be the only one who's on. This is an issue that you and I have spoken about. Many have kicked against and wondered why it's taken the National Assembly so long to make a decision on it. But now they've given it a nod. Most will say they're about to pressure. Now, going forward, do we see that this is going to maybe first things first happen during their number of elections? Is that going to be a litmus test of sorts? Can we rely on it and say that, as a matter of fact, our elections can at least start to be free for incredible? Okay, Mr. Agoule, can you hear me? Yes, I can hear you. Go ahead. Yeah, I didn't know that was for me. It was for you. You're the only one. Look, Nigerians had made up their minds before their hopes were dashed by the same age about what was their first time with regard to INEC, when it comes to what happened after the voting takes place. A lot of Nigerians resolved unanimously that both should be transmitted. And that view point was made especially against the backdrop of the election that took place in those days. Of course, we had something similar to the transition of the electronic results, which is a big part during that election. And it was highly, highly successful. So a lot of people have looked forward to Nigeria advancing electoral practices by improving what you already have on ground. That was what was expected. And so, and a lot of organizations, such as people such organizations, the media and so many others, who put in this country had worked too much, you know, and don't so much work in propagating use of transition of electronics, but the results electronically after the election. So it was a very root shock for Nigerians. And this is given, again, with the recommendation of the House of Representatives, that let the transition of results, at least at the doorstep of INEC. So when it got to the Senate, because they completely disbanded, they rejected it entirely. And now let it at the doorstep of the National Nigerian Telecommunications Commission. They're still in liberal exchange. This is not an electoral body. You know, and INEC has said that they're in a position that they had the technology, you know, to run to transmit the election. And that the network providers, you know, where INEC has already assured them that they had the capacity, you know, to help INEC transmit this result electronically. So it was a very big shock when the Senate, you know, gave that responsibility to the body that had nothing to do with the election in this country. The Nigerian Telecommunications Commission, you know, that was a shock. And Nigerians did not find it very poorly at all. You know, so the backlash, I think that's what the Senate has done. I mean, it's a good thing they have, you know, what they have done. And it seems that they're thinking the way they have responded positively to the yenings of Nigeria, because Nigerians were very coordinated of their actions at that particular point in time. And they have shown that somehow that they have the capacity to appeal the force of the people. And so it's the right thing to do. INEC has said that they are in a position to transmit this result successfully. And I believe that they can do it. So moving forward, moving forward from that, the ball seems to be now being the court of political parties and their members to canvass for votes, because I'm guessing that this now means that it's not going to be business as usual. And so there has to be a lot more work done by political parties, because one way or the other, this might eliminate the vote buying or the ridiculousness of votes changing before the results get to INEC. So what do you think is ahead of political parties and their members, especially as we look to Enambra as the first litmus test after the National Assembly has given it a nod? I didn't get all you say, but I think I got matches of what you were talking about. So INEC finds itself in the unique position of testing their capacity with the Enambra election. That is their capacity to transmit the results. A lot of people will be watching them closely. But of course, INEC already has its job cut out for it, because of the crisis and the insecurity in Enambra and the circumstances surrounding the election. But of course, there are so many other good things about the electronic voting. I think it ensures a very large extent, a better transparency in the electoral process. At the same time, it makes it difficult for Tom to play the title role that they have always played in the election. Because what it means is that once an election has been successfully conducted, immediately it transmits this result electronically. And once that is done, there is nothing that, you know, Tom or Mr. Ant can do. They can take away the ballot boxes with all the capacity inside. It takes just nothing, because the results have already gone somewhere. And so it also means that perhaps the politicians will save less money on some of these talks that they keep on employing. And of course, life will be much cheaper. Because to be less risky, for people to be involved in elections only to have themselves being attacked by some of these party-star wars or talks. Alright, let me see if we can get Carl back on the line. Carl, can you hear me? Unfortunately, Carl can't hear me. Mr. Juley, can you hear me? Yes, I can't go, I'm struggling to, but I can hear you. Okay, Mr. Juley, this question goes to you. Many have criticized the electoral process in Nigeria as that which is more of money than, you know, selling the candidates for who he is and what his capabilities are. So now that we have this nod for the electronic transfer, transmitting of results starting from Anambra, which is the closest elections that we're going to have, just like I asked at Chikitrude, is this going to increase the capacity of money politics or is it going to shrink it? Are we now going to see political parties canvassing for their candidates more other than the normal sharing of monies and sudden food materials just to help get votes? What do you see happening? Yeah, so regardless of the approval for the transmission of the results, it has nothing to do with how much politicians spend during the electoral process. And the reality is that there is a failure on all sides, especially on the part of INET, you know, to speak to the rules that it has put in place. Yeah, so many, you know, punishments of time for candidates who spend far beyond the provisions of the law. I'm sure we know that for every category of office that is being protested for that there are certain sources of money that are attached to that office in terms of the obligations of politicians to spend money. They are not supposed to create those amounts of money. But we know that this is just that it is being observed in the bridge. INET has not lacked the political will to actually do anything about that. But INET is an electoral body, they're an empire, they're not a law enforcement agency. And this is the case they always make. They can do certain things, but I mean it stops somewhere. This is where law enforcement comes in. I have covered elections where I see policemen in the midst of people sharing money and they take their share. What can an INET official do in that instance? There are certain responsibilities that INET has. INET has jurisdiction over the polling, which over the election generally. So any mass practice and what the police do with the security forces is to lend a helping hand to ensure that INET's responsibilities are carried out without any threats to public peace and harmony. So INET still has some responsibilities. It's like people who are committing electoral offenses. It falls within the ambit of INET. But what INET does really is that in collaboration with the police, the law enforcement officers also have the responsibility to ensure that people who are contracting the electoral law are arrested. INET is not in the position to arrest, but INET can do something to get in some of these people arrested and being handed over to the police for prosecution. That's what they are supposed to do. In fact, after the election in 2019, a lot of civil society organizations including the civil society organizations are belong to the Nigerian situation. They have to put pressure on INET. With regards to all of the people who have promised they are going to be prosecuted for various acts of conservation of electoral law. And so they have to put pressure on them. They themselves are also trying to put pressure on the police authorities so that they are able to be prosecuted successfully. So they have the responsibility to ensure that the money that have been earmarked to the extent that the politicians have not exceeded within their responsibility. After all, it's also within their responsibility to monitor political parties and ensure that in terms of accountability by these political parties, in terms of political party financing and auditing outside the reference of political parties, it is the responsibility also of INET. Great. Let me talk about educating the populace because I know that that responsibility is also that of INET. They have voter education and a voter education department under INET. Then people also talk about the national orientation agency and other bodies who take on the responsibility of educating the populace. Now, we're all very excited. We have been speaking about the Senate and the National Assembly allowing for this to go through. But on the other hand of direct primaries, how does that even affect the average Nigerian, especially now that we're asking that Nigerians get involved in partisan politics to be able to have a say? Can we still say that whoever a party throws up, whether it be through direct primaries or consensus candidates, that these people really reflect the will of the people? Well, the issue is when elections come and go, there are victors and there are losers. So if you say it is a general belief that the people have exercised their franchise. Yes, I know that in the list of widespread activations of rigging for instance or manipulation of votes and all that, you might not exactly say that which has been a reflection of the will of the people. But I think it also starts with the turnout of voters. How many people actually come out to vote during the election? Anand Brasit, an election is going to be placed in Anand Brasit. Now regardless of the threat by either high power or whichever group is making threats in an election in Anand Brasit, the reality is that Anand Brasit has always had about the lowest turnout of voters in elections. And why do you think that is? Why do you think that there's such a level of voter apathy and it has been consistent over the years? Yes, that is down to a plethora of issues. First of all, I think the primary issue is that our people are not sufficiently educated and I think it talks about the education of the people. Yes. They are not sufficiently educated. A lot of our people are not exactly very well informed when it comes to politics. Many of them are not politically conscious and that in itself is a very dangerous situation because the people themselves, democracy is about the people. So if the people do not invest in democracy, then you'll find out that ultimately, they're going to be the ones carrying the short end of this thing. But beyond that, again, is the fact that the parties we have, and I'm talking about the two, are not especially political parties in the very sense of the word. I see them more at a group of associations of people who just come together for the purpose of taking political power. Do you think it's deliberate? Sorry to speak over you. Can you hear me? Sorry to talk over you. Do you think it's deliberate what the political parties are doing? Because I also know that some level of voter education needs to come from the political parties across the country. But do you think there's some deliberate move for these political parties not to educate voters, the people who they want to come out and vote, because it might serve their selfish interests? Because the people who make up these political parties, and I'm talking about the two, you know, dominant political parties, the people who make up these political parties in this way, you know, the big shots in these parties are not to put at that, are essentially expressed in the welfare of the regular mission. Otherwise, you know, they will not have the kind of dismal results, you know, that their parties have posted over the years. Whether it is the PDP, you know, or the APC. Look at the state of the economy today. Look at this, it's not in the country. We have a political party, or we have political parties that have dominated the political state in this country, and we are supposed to provide good governance for the people. The good governance we have not seen. So that tells you that there is a clear failure. And part of it again is that, apart from the fact that the people themselves are not conscious enough to also understand their duty and their responsibility. Because the youths of the political parties educate their people, first of all, along ideological lines. Unfortunately, the political parties in this country do not have any serious, you know, reasonable ideological positions. You know? And so, and that's why during the political discourse, or during political debate, they do not talk about, you know, what exactly they are going to do for the people, how they are going to do this. They do not talk about how they are going to fund their economy around. They do not talk about how they would, you know, positively impact on the lives of the people. You understand? How they are going to do it. And the timeline, what you need to get this is done. You know, all they have done, I mean, they don't say that they are going to, you know, that they should just vote for them because they do not say what they are going to do. And the people do not ask. And why do the people do not ask? Because the people are bright, you know, by the politicians, so vote for them, you know, and so the politicians, you know, obligation by the time they get to power, you know, to respond to the needs and enemies of the people because the people have, the people have already been saved from their targets. So this is, I mean, it's a situation one can discover between the devil and the deep blue sea. So we find out for ourselves in a very terrible situation and that's why there is nothing that is working for the country. Because we have a group of people that are not patriotic, that are not nationalistic, being, you know, in charge of the country. Okay. Let me go to Nick. Nick, I think that you are back. Let's talk about, let's just do a follow up on where Achike stopped. He's saying that our leaders, our politicians do not necessarily have the best interest of the Nigerian voter or the voting populace at heart. Hence the lack of voter education in the past of political parties and that, I mean, the bulk of the work is on INEC to do some of this voter education. We also have the NRA that we only see when it's close to election season. But for the Nigerian person there is a voice which is their vote. What should we be doing to empower ourselves so that when we're going to the polls, whether we be members of political parties or not, we know what to do as opposed to what we're made to do or what we're made to believe? Thank you very much. I'm very sorry for joining later. I have been battling with network here, almost everything in Nigeria is with tears. Before I answer your question I would just like to make my intervention on the two topics that you have for discussion today. The first one being electronic transmission of votes is a major development in our democracy. It is a very good thing that the senate has finally done by approving electronic transmission of votes. The only thing that will ask INEC to do is as they transmit their votes, polling unit by polling unit, they need to publish the results polling unit by polling unit because you see, Nigerians at the polling unit are able to see or hear the results at their polling unit. And there's something happens in between when the votes are collected. People lose track of what the polling unit results were when they are being aggregated. So INEC needs to be publishing those results, polling unit by polling unit, so that Nigerians will technically become election watchers. And people will be able to confirm that yes, at my polling unit, this was a result that was declared and it's on the board, the rest will just be addition. And also then for direct primaries, I also give kudos to the Senate for insisting on direct primaries because these political parties as my co-panelists have been saying, they don't have the interest on Nigerians at heart. They normally throw to us candidates that are not fit enough for office. But if they have internet democracy where there is direct primaries and the members are able to decide who their candidates will be, I'm sure we're going to have better candidates than the current system where the party leaders decide on who they are going to throw up as a party candidate. Now let me now then go to your question. The question is how do we mobilize Nigerians to bring them to the ballot boxes? The point is here I have been always advocating that the only way we can change this country, the only way we can change this country is the way the party leaders that we want. The only legitimate and viable way that is less violent is to come out and vote. And each time I say that I meet a lot of resistance from Nigerians. In fact, what I see is cynicism, pessimism and the fact that votes don't count. But can you blame the average Nigerian who feels that way being that most of them have their votes don't necessarily count? Even though staying back at home also means that you've made a decision, it's a vote in one way or the other. So what can you blame the average person who's pushing back when you say come out and vote? Can you blame them? So here like you rarely say we have two decisions to make. We have a decision to sit at home and not step out. But the result of that decision is that nothing is going to change. In fact, things might even get worse. And then the other decision is to step out and vote at least do your own civic duty by voting. And then let us see what happens. In this country we have seen cases where votes have counted. There are many instances where votes have always counted. And if votes were not to count why would politicians be buying them? Politicians buy votes because they know the votes are counting. So it is a bit of a fallacy when Nigerians say that votes don't count. Sometimes it is when the result is not as clear that people are able to manipulate it. The result is so clear as in Nigeria's trooper because you see the problem is that the people who come out now to vote majority of them are those that will go and say their votes for cheap. The people who will not take 500 naira or 1000 naira to say their votes. They are the ones sitting at home. The educated class way to do, they are sitting at home. These are the people that need to come out. If they come out and overwhelm the process then we are going to carry the day. The truth of the matter is that voting is going to change in this country until we come out and start voting candidates based on their own individual competencies and competencies. We shouldn't be voting on party lines or where a candidate comes from. And the only people who can take those decisions are those people who are sitting at home right now. They need to come out. And there is another block. There is another block that can actually influence election results in this country that have not been allowed to vote and not belong to that block. And that is the block of the diaspora. Nigeria is in the diaspora not been allowed to have a say in who governs this country. Have we grown to that level where we can even allow diaspora vote? If we've not been able to master voting within, should we not be able to get that right first before we start the diaspora voting? I'm not in any way kicking that but I'm just saying, if we haven't mastered even the internal voting systems is it okay to open the door to diaspora voting? I'm not sure what you mean but we have not mastered the internal voting system. I think we have these democracies have had six elections, six elections already and those elections have run, the results have been declared. And how has it been better than before or worse than the previous ones? That's how we check it. The point here is that the elections for the majority of the time, the elections have pockets on issues here and there. But at the end of the day the results are declared and people are thrown into office. So whatever the process is, let the process also be applicable to the diasporas. Let us also have our own ballot and I can assure you that if ballot boxes are placed in Nigeria high commissions and embassies abroad and elections are conducted, those elections will be freer and fairer and more legitimate than what you will get here in Nigeria because most of these countries, like in the UK where I live I can't see how somebody will snatch a ballot box and be running away with. The Metropolitan Police will just grab you and then the diasporas are well informed, the diasporas are the people that will not accept any cover from anybody. They are going to vote based on the capabilities of these candidates and the diasporas can actually change the result of this election because look in the last presidential election the vote margin between the winner and the second place candidate was about a million or less and we have more than probably 20 million diasporas who if they have voted would have decided the election so that is an underblock that needs to come. So for the rest of Nigeria we just have to continue the education and you guys in the media you have a role to play civil societies have a role to play religious bodies have a role to play and community associations have a role to play we need to get people out to vote 30 million votes was what was cast in the last presidential election Mr. Agulay are you still there? We need to bring them to the ballot so that they can have a say in this democracy. Well I want to say thank you to Achike Chude, he is a political analyst Nick Agulay who is also a political analyst wants to say thank you to Kyle Chinedu who's network was really bad his connection did not let us hear what he had to contribute but thank you all gentlemen for being part of this conversation we appreciate it thank you for braving the connection problem alright well thank you all for staying with us we will take a short break when we come back the secretary for the south west agenda for us see what you speak on the movement