 Welcome back to the breakfast. Well, it's time for a hot topic and today we'll be having one hot topic one very hot topic And we have as a guest to discuss this very hot topic Mr. Abraham great public affairs analysts is joining us from Canada. Good morning, Mr. Great Good morning to you. Thank you for having me once again. How are you doing? I'm actually fantastic. It is working. Oh good I'm just I'm just playing around with your your your name. It's great to have great on the program So it's great. It's great to have great on the program today Welcome. It's also great to be with you. Yes, so Mr. Great 19 days from now we'll be having a new president in Abuja and that's I made petitions at the presidential election tribunals What should Nigerians be expecting is one of the things we'll be taking a look at today also We want to be taking a look at the impact and changes that electoral art 2022 has brought to our polity and democracy So let's start with the impact and the changes that this new electoral at the amended electoral art has brought to the to the fore this time around I think Well, I would think one of the major premise of the uh, or what necessitated the uh amendment of the electoral act which has led to the uh 2022 electoral act Is the digitalization of our voting voting system? That's why we had to upgrade from the electoral act of 2010 into the electoral act of 2022 Now, um, we have made a lot of progress in terms of legislature and, you know, uh You know, um policies Under the ninth assembly particularly towards the end of the administration a lot of progress is made because every country That is going to move forward to actually have policies that are in invoke You know policies that are current or policies that you know meet the needs of those people However, saying that we still see from the aftermath of the election that there are, you know, lakuna. So there are there are no old still even in that uh electoral act particularly for me the sessions that has to do with uh, you know consequences of election mark practices like looking from Session 126, you know that word there it seems to be consequences But for me a lot of those consequences seems just repeated from the previous electoral act Or, you know, not really serious repercussion 500 000 for somebody You know, uh, that bridge election or election laws, you know, those seems to me not to be stringent You know, uh policy enough, but again these give rooms this last election give rooms again, uh for the legislature to look into the electoral act So For me, I see a lot of progress that have been made In having a new electoral act However, you could see the big gap of what we had particularly with this session 134 of that electoral act Where we're having is it in conjunction? Is it these? Is it that even though there are case laws That, you know, can justify one position or the other, you know the The the the the electoral act needed to be more explicit, you know, I would have interpreted that session to mean that By by the by the by that policy Saying in one subsection that you make 25 percent in, you know, two-third of the state and the fct I would have thought, you know, but that is not a final because we'll wait for the court to Interpret as as needed. But from my own Legal background, I would have thought that if fct was so important Then it will reflect on the Nigerian constitution that Abuja has a special electoral college status But because Nigeria does not have such status in any part of the country, you know Carrying more weight than the order Then if that was at the be the case, my simple interpretation was that instead of it to be an addendum or a joiner or a Conjunction to a subsection of the law. It would have been 134c rather than be part of b So but then I am not the judge and I'm not I don't have that legal You know Fine Finalism or so to determine what the interpretation of that laws is but literally to mean the law That is what it would mean, you know Okay, well still talking about the effect of this electoral act and one of it is the electronic transmission of results Let's look at the the ruling the judgment that was given yesterday by the supreme court In the ocean states governorship election where part of what was said is that the transmission of results via beavers Is not the only way to decide a winner Respond to that for us if you want Okay, so I mean that judgment actually excites me or probably would excite my mom As you know a relative Is is is you know celebrating and dancing now And you know is one that I I'm not really fully read the I was just following twitter feeds Because because of the fact that I know that a little bit Is so concerning to my mom I didn't want to go into it emotionally and think you know, we should be celebrating victory But it's a very very important Residence that has been laid yesterday and then here the interpretation for me is in the same alignment with what I've thought Since that election tribunal started and what I think the law is saying or what the supreme court is saying is that look It is not irf that gives the final results of what election is the final result of the election Are supposed to be under beavers And what that judgment is saying in my understanding of it even though I've you know, I've not looked at it pedantically Is that look election results are already collated from each polling unit To the collation centers and that You know party agents And party representatives Already have those results And so if we are going to take anything in the court We will be relying more on the beavers what on the beavers They are credited votes on the beavers rather relying on the irif I don't know if you understand what i'm saying. So that is a very powerful judgment that could mean a very serious precedence for the Upcoming election, but in law you cannot interpret literally and just think because one case has been Decided in this way, you know, it's definitely going to be that way Then we don't need to go to court then if we all have the answers already But this gives us room to study that case a lot more And you know, I wouldn't expect anything because I think already we can see the direction that the presidential election Petitions are already going as well. Okay, but how would you Say how would you rate? How much these Electoral acts which you are applauding as the game changer in this 2023 election How will you say it has worked? Is it playing out the way you hoped it was going to play out or there's something else that is missing because If there is no difference between this election that happened in 2023 with the electoral act of 2022 From what has been happening before now, then it makes no sense So how would you rate the performance as it were of the electoral act in the 2023 election? Both presidential and gubernatorial elections Like I said, I don't think it's a perfect act yet Uh, because there are still you know, there are still rooms for a lot of improvement Well, one big thing that these are you know Exchange in the like Nigerian electoral system is one major problem that we have had since 1959 Which is the ambiguity around our sensors have voting numbers from different region in the country In that in this case now, even though it has started since 2004 2015 election, we have now seen electronic voting to be a more a small Conquential to the outcome of our election. So you see example for example, you know We have about 90,000 or 90 million plus voters and right now is the first election in Nigeria I mean the lowest turnout now that is only not only because people did not come out There are a lot of ambiguity that has been complained of since 1959 Sensors that the british can conducted before we had the independence So it has always appears that there are some ambiguous numbers that comes from setting uh quarters Of the country that this last election seems to be telling us In fact, if you are looking at it, literally it's very difficult for you to assume And think that apc played a game and they rigged up the way the dynamics of this election It is too peculiar for you to just blanket unless you have actually been emotional for you just to be saying Oh, they rigged it. What have you it doesn't appear so it appeared to be an a very very real Maybe there are some suppression or what have you in areas, you know all over the world people do things they Propaganda they push an area. They in fact in some cases they cost traffic. It happens everywhere in the world. So For me, it's not a finer, you know, uh document, but it has made a huge difference Okay, uh, we understand that liberals of summer has just joined us. Uh, good morning, mr. Osama Yeah, I can hear you. Okay. Very good. Good morning to you Osama Yes, I corrected it a second time. Osama. Okay. Um, well, uh, let's start from From uh, Oshoon state a delicacy has been declared by the supreme court as the authentic winner of that election And then there are some things that came out of that. We're just discussing With uh, ibrahim great right now What pronouncements were made we hear or we understand that one of the things that were was was said was that, um Uh elections do not have to be The vivas is not the only means is not the only means. Yeah, the results can be declared beautiful. So What do you see let me not even say that some people feel That this is just a pointer to what they The possible outcome of the presidential elections petitions Is going to be what is your response to that? Yeah, uh, quickly let's start from um, the representative the council that I do this map up if you look at um the theme of um, uh, what do you call it? a delicate A delicate steam Is uh almost replicated in obi and article steam And so you wonder the argument can burst at um By adi tribuna in osho By this same team They would be conversing the opposites of that argument at the presidential election So these are pointers. So we understand the basics And then um Oh, yeah, the last team Is also almost replicated in Uh, to the boost the apc The presidential candidates team at the presidential election. So the argument can burst In osho, they'll be conversing the opposite of it And so that's why you know when you say a pointer, you know, and then the pronouncement of the tribunal Are elementary issues that you know, we have been blinded by sentiment too Um The electoral act is very clear Which I make had consistently repeated on um How election results are collated and announced So even though Um, a lot of people had consistently maintained. Ah, no the moment diverse was introduced Every other process should be jettison the electoral acts did not Jettison all other processes what the electoral act simply did was to compliment The manual process with an electronic process even in america in america There is no system that is completely electronic. They still also, you know have million dollars You know and all of that. So that's basically what the supreme court had that re-interrated and also to add to that um the issues of Before now Electoral act election practices had been proved Pulling units by pulling units and also The discrepancies in elections also the supreme court had re-interrated That you do the onus of proof Is on the petitioner and not on the defense To establish that irregularities were not there or that they were there So what the petitioner did in our show case in case she was to rely happily on the results Completing results from the iran If you remember in that matter the reports from The iran that was Issued to the apc candidate was different from the report That iran attacked to the acclaim to that defense And also different from the reports that was attacked to the PDP Depends and so the courts in his opinion said look The audience is still on you with the petitioner to prove this irregularity and not to resort To the discrepancies in those reports And if you remember even at the open court tribunal at the tribunal The beaver's machine that were used that were deployed in that election were examined And tallied with the number of actual voters as a gift the report of the iran And so the court in his opinion i said look you cannot pick one and And whether at discrepancies sorry that whether at discrepancies The primary source of the evidence which is the beaver's machine Should be resorted to and it was resorted to and that The outcome for the court had relied on and also the court also had not completely because the provisions are very clear that the Voters who register consistent is a document that you must reckon with in all elections That's why they found that i think section 27 had said that The overvoting it's when the number of accredited voters Number of accredited voters number of actual voters is more than the number of accredited voters by the beavers But the the electorate have also Clearly stated That you must also reckon these numbers with the number of the actual of the Register voters are stated in the register. So all of these Are what you must reckon with in determining the actual voters and overbooting And so that's basically what the courts have them and decided and and and so it's a Welcome development. It's working progress and what that also should tell us is that it is not just enough for us to amend our laws It is also very germane for us To also put machineries in place to ensure the smooth administration of that law Thank you, mr. Libera. So shama. I should Establish here that he is a legal practitioner, but of course, haven't listened to him You know that he is a legal practitioner. Well, I've been told that another guest has joined us justice Human rights lawyer has joined the conversation. Good morning, mr. Joe. Uh, who able? All right. Well, we're going to be talking to you mostly about the situation In the south east and how they are playing their politics there Oh, honey is indeed worldwide has called for the revival of the Igbo governor's forum Why have There not been a forum such as that active in that region I would say that It is the same policies people have been playing all this while and the game is this tribalistic and regional sentiment of human governance forum And And that is one of the reasons why we're not being petrified yet And especially when you even talk about it was the Igbo governor's forum You know, I do admit that some of them are in a some of them are in pity And we have a situation in Nigeria We are once you belong to a political party and another person belongs to a political party They see themselves as enemies when it comes to press input To play the game when it comes to giving dividends of democracy to the people when it comes to Them enjoying themselves and attending functions. They become one So I think they are just the impolites with the head of the people But people some would say that Indi Igbo not coming together uniting as one Having a common Political front so to speak not having a political party You know what I mean having some sort of unity amongst them, especially the leaders is the bane of development in that era They are not developing well as they showed as a section Of this country. They are not you cannot see Especially now that the APC is Putting together their principal officers. The Igbo's are not seem to be Given any kind of relevance How does that strike you as an Igbo person? Yeah, for me, I think it's an issue of Individual understanding and the selfishness because um, you cannot tell me that because you're a member of PDP And this is a member of APC And this is a member of ABDA or member of level party that you push should not walk together in order to make sure That the well-being of the people especially in that region Is first and foremost in your mind. Let me give you an example for example One for your show was the uh, governor of it is the first show was governor on that The first show was also attending functions called by Uh by the euro bars and we are other governors from APC. We attend them and first show was also Do one or two things for this thing not my name that is from PDP party and others So I think uh Yes, I you might be a little bit right that the Igbo's are not united or something like that But I have to tell you that is out of self-respect because this is the only region where I see When people come together as a people they not something about personal interest and personal again Because I don't see anything any reason why it should be so. Let me give you a typical example I once attended the forum of the ebos. I I gave them a piece of advice that we don't need further government to dress even either for us We don't need further government to build the second neither bridge for us The ebos people governors can come together and you know, contribute and do it or even invite a multinational company I have national identity lego state. So what are we talking about today? When first on that level is he lego state that he's sleeping is he first on that he's sleeping the food or or lego shell So he's a team of selfish input as far as I'm concerned Let me bring in, uh, mr. Loveros or shama mr. Loveros or shama Yeah, I can hear you. Yeah, let's have your thought on the kind of politics the brand of politics the ebos have been playing Especially since 1999. Let's have your thought on it Yeah, uh, first and foremost, I want to say that this call also is a pointer to the fact that Nigeria can only survive on region this idea of having you know a behemoth called the federal government um And they believe that the federal government will do everything For us. It's an aberration like the misplace priority the federal government Can only do the limited it has consistently done The only way we can develop as a people is if we go back to our return And that's why you'll find that that even among lawyers you have the headway Or more what you could you call them a day? Uh, uh, a behemoth which is a the western lawyers body You have the eastern One of the eastern Block you have the midwestern region and all of that these are ways countries are consistently have developed And I'm so I also welcome the idea of having the not just Um, uh, what do you call it? The sultan governor's forum, but also having the eastern governor's forum the western governor's forum You know and all of that but it shouldn't be for jamboree or for cake sharing It should be for development. I have consistently talked about abbia state for example And how Governors has taken back, you know, waters in that place And also this issue of sit at home in in the entire eastern region for example Have consistently undermined business development in those places. I used to go to oweri a lot Even though I'm not from there. I I have a lot of friends from there I used to go to worry, but when the insecurity started I stopped going because um, you know This sit at home and all of that has a way of hospital, you know On the mining business activities and nobody there talked about it. And now I'm coming to the issue of development and the power sharing it is Not a novel thing the way politics is played in Nigeria that the winner always want to take it all Um going by the last election. We also know where the Vote from the east went to and so it is also Jamil for people who gave vote a piece to say look We should get positions first than areas that didn't give them vote This is where people talk about not putting all your eggs in one basket In 2015 it happened Uh, also it is happening now. I think it also happened to the west in um 2011 2011 up to 2015 Where the euro bus complained that they didn't even though they frustrated The effort of the pdp led government then to appoint or to gift The west um its speakership of the house of assembly and the person of monica's uh, But they also complained, but what did they do when they complained the governor and created an alliance Which you know some political parties from the nut and a slice from the east to fund the apc and the one election So so this should also be a wake-up call for politicians from the east and like justice has said Not just for selfish reasons not for ban tasks or not for sharing money But for the development of the entire eastern region and then once you start Once you begin to showcase You know a good governor naturally people will gravitate to Like it happened in lego. I can tell people for sure that it is the activities of fashion in legos That made people saw the spn As an as a credible alternative That was what even led to the shaman left government the firemen a kitty and subsequently the arabish alliance you know because Facialized administration was held by almost everybody as something different and and new from what the pdp government was then I hope and i pray that um Somebody like my very good friend them the elected governor Governor elect in abia state um uh, alexo team We use that as a As a Step things don't to kick start the development in abia and then use that opportunity to showcase You know a brand new country and a brand new style of policy Okay, uh, let me go to a ibrahim great. You have been waiting for a very long time We are talking about a new era. We're talking about a new psyche for the nigerian people, but Having a new era new psyche for our people They need to know the things that they they can contribute as well to making nigeria great Because we've been relying on the government all the time So for us to get the kind of nigeria of our dream ask the people not necessarily the government now What do you think we should start looking at? To change or to do better to make nigeria as great as we want it to be Uh, thank you. I think i'll take it from the last couple of years that my uh co-panelists are you know debating in terms of How the east you know placed the election We have to be able to understand that we need to Uh redefine our beginning, you know almost like 1999 Was a new beginning the fourth republic, but we have to go back to Why are we in this way where the east you know are voting in their own way and what have you We have to go back to the fact that This country was regional before it was put together before the armagamation So the the differences we haven't really sought out the the the issue of our differences And we saw that through the system of governance that we had before the uh before the independence the unitary system We saw that in the kind of politics that in amdiasic way, you know, I won't know what I would all Suggesting before we went for the federal system that we should have six regions That's what we're doing now, you know, uh in terms of how we describe our area south south south east southwest And the man was suggesting at a time that look let's make this country more like a parliamentary system Where each of the region will be like scotland, eagle, england, northern ireland And each of them will have their own constitution or unwritten constitution and will operate by their own courts Now that is again at the back end of what happened in the 1960s the war So the southeast have not fully recovered from this and i'm going to say it is that if we're going to be better As a nation there has to be uh, uh, uh, there has to be a committee of national unity Almost similar to what we have in the comfort, but the comfort was Hello Yes, hold on let him finish then you you respond to what he said No, no, just a side comment. I'm not Sorry Okay, okay, so I'll let others weigh in but my my belief is that I mean it is very possible. America had this for for many decades Where the east is having problem with the south and power never went to the south for I mean considerable number of years, but we're eventually able to overcome this then by You know having dialogues having cacuses cacuses discussing issue the south the east the west The north would need to come together at some point and rethink and each region Elders need to come together and say how we play politics needs to change If there's anything that I learned, you know from some part of the country Is the fact that you see that many part of the country like the western part of the country The little of the history that I know there they've had several wars They've had many wars that have separated them But at some point they have come together as a unit that you almost could not tell the difference between a kitty And uh and us you and what have you I mean I grew up that way either is religion or what have you You see that we are both christian and muslim in this family But we're still one Even though we still have a war in that part of the uh in the southwest That's the mudaka care and the labor war, but that is also more political So I think we can actually come to the point where the every part of the country can begin to see each other As one nation I think it is possible when we decide to do that So our mindset needs to change that's one area that we need to and if on a final note if I may say One other area that we need to change is that we need to come to this Mindset or come up the mindset where we think that government should do everything I blame government that they have not even attained the main thing yet According to mind slow hierarchy of need where the physiological need in the country is not even met yet So I cannot understand why people are overly reliant But at some point we need to break up from our dependency On most of which local government state government should do and expecting that is a president that most Fix every problem in uh in the country We need to go back to america and remember what they did when we were in poverty The tycoons people like uh jc mogan people like john dirac kefela These people started industry and this has already begun in nigeria And we need to change our mindset and see that we're on a trajectory into something big as a nation A huge lack of social capital is a major problem we're having in the country Let me take you go back to justice uhebu How would you suggest that we'll build social capital in this country? 62 years after india There are something I keep on saying every time sincerity of And that is what I don't see in our so called industry day Because if going by Our history since independence and we are still here now talking every day I keep on wondering Why we were in school in economies who we have talked about what we call a lot of geometric Progression and a lot of diminishing return and I believe every naive young will agree with me today That what we're experiencing in this country is diminishing return and we're not progress We're not we're not going up at all in year in year out. Okay. Look at it every four years We conduct a nation is one or the other from the umpire They are we are not growing rather we are going down But every day they go outside we come here and talk we say everything We see all these things and nobody wants to do the right And why because of selfishness and impunity because the executive itself has almost taken Every thing feeling that nothing will happen. And actually nothing will happen. Nobody's talking about development Nobody's talking about infrastructure. Nobody's talking about education. Nobody's talking about anything Just like my friends say we we need to redefine ourselves and agree at this thing The only thing that can save this country is regional government and if we cannot walk Let us see a way to go about this It's not a do or die affair that everybody should be together in the first place If it's not working, we should look for something to do. We should at this point begin to tell ourselves The truth my friend was talking about America and do you remember that did I just say you're referring to every state? That is your laws and they are operating with that but in Nigeria Who is there anything like that people are always looking at the federal government because the federal government is Thanks, everything they give little to the people look at what we're talking about today Today we were talking at the betting about local government autonomy Are we supposed to be talking about that? today the federal government Sends money to the state and the state sends to local government and look at the states hijack the money and give the local government a little Forgetting that these are even the people that are close to the the government Our family that is close to the people was he like this before? The legacy of the national wasn't like this and all the way So we got all the same because we now have selfish people and wicked people in policies That's as that place to believe that everybody now is acquiring acquiring acquiring that is just what is happening to us today Okay, well the implementation of critical microeconomic and structural policy reforms By the newly elected government can place the economy on a stronger and more sustainable path The questions now are what are these critical microeconomic Structures and policies that this new government Should put in place to move this country forward because whether we like it or not. We are One as it is and But what do we do going forward as we look at this issue of expectations from the new government? Let me start with you a liberals Yeah First and foremost, let me say here that Um, I do not agree that we need a government of national unity or a national forum or whatever And so that I was laughing at I want to decide with my brother that um If you do your own bit and I do my own Government we grow organically And so that's why I believe that the problem of Nigeria is Nigerians Not even governments Nigeria's because everybody in government today Was once critical previous governments Actually lie Mohammed. I remember how vociferous he was. You know, how things can be done better I remember first us KMO I remember Ruben Abbasi I can name con names for you even people like Good luck Jonathan when they probably were not government. They knew how government should run people like Bola met in Ubu today even Or the president Buhari when he was not in government. He knew how government should run But the moment he stepped in and every Nigerian knows how government should be Until you give them my opportunity. Just give it Nigerian small uniform small uniform You begin over here. Do you know who I am? you know so Dare to hire an artisan artisan To fix your book for you a book that is sold for Maybe 200 and I will come back and tell you guys 500 and I changed the cost for market so That is the problem. That's the attitude as a mentality. So that person gets into government office He continued with that mentality forgetting that he was once critical So what do we need all these macroeconomics microeconomics and all of these are jaguars If the right structure is not in place Where Bola met in Ubu and the APC team were in FPM As justice is there. We were both sympathetic to the ideas and the ideologies that they can burst Then how government should run how we should ensure that government at the local level, which is the the um Machinery that should Gavanize the people Should be put in place and that once the governance is the structure of governance is right Every other thing cannot begin to the we cannot begin to put everything in place You cannot have a behemoth called the federal governments Who operate as a local government? in large Mass like Nigeria and I expect that you will touch every nook and cranny. It is not possible So and that's why all these macro macroeconomics who are going to be the drivers Remember, let me take your mind back why it will fail if the structure is not addressed APC Buhari administration said they were going to create a job in a seven hundred and seventy Seven local governments Seven hundred and seventy seven thousand jobs per annum And first us k amu minister for state for labor came up with the whip barrel Um, what do you call it job creation? And at the end of the day it ended up as It started people said it was from some persons just used it as a platform To make money for themselves. Do you know why? Because it wasn't driven by the local You don't need to have a federal government's job Creation at that level once the structure is right the local governments will begin to create jobs I am I just came back from from canada. I was in the state of ontario You do not need You're practicing law in the state of ontario. You don't need to go and pay license in abata For you to practice in ontario. If you pay license in abata, you practice law in abata So it's the same thing The state of ontario provides for the people in ontario. It is the same thing with america So here we are talking about in nigeria Where the federal government wants to provide for arugungu local government in so koto wants to provide for Esa concentra local government in ando wants to provide for aggregate local government in in Lagos wants to provide for In in calabar same time provide for What about the local government in belway? It is not possible It is the people in a body boat that understands that peculiarity what they need Might not be what demand in anek better in esa concentra needs So that's why what we need is to ensure that people That have consistently clamor and campaign for a restructuring of this country and now are the ends of affair I had expected that it would begin to discuss a total overhauling of our structure at the petty structure For that governments can be put in the right perspective can be pigeonholed so that I don't need To go to abuja to begin to look for the dividends of democracy I don't need to wait for minister for walks to turn the road in a movie that takes that goes from a movie to a half year in Arochuku in abuja state the people and the government in that place Understands it feel the pain and know when to do it until we do that all this and that's where The funds using those places will be localized and local business activities will try But when you're waiting for federal government presence, they start from so koto the people in Abia we complain you start from belway the people in calabar will complain You start from Lagos does it not should we complain? So that's why let's government share its weights And rep distribute these responsibilities and then those of us who are a critical government cannot begin to look at them, you know local government by local government and not to begin to consistently look at The president with that who becomes with the emphasize who becomes the president and look more at who become a governor Becomes a local government chairman who becomes a councilor and then touch them on dividends of democracy properly Until we do all of this my brother my my sister Who will just be deceiving herself on macroeconomic macroeconomics and you know, nothing will move But so that it does not look as if I avoided your question What we need to do now first and foremost what are these dividends of macroeconomics the basic What do you call it? Pools that will drive economy. Let us speak If you fix for example, the smallest businesses in Nigeria run some power. Let us also Begin to respond Or Where the price of the petroleum product is dependent on one federal government having to fix or Give subsidy you cannot drive production that way now. Everybody's going to China to produce We need to bring down those local production And then begin those are the small smallest of the indices that will drive your macroeconomy I wish we had more time to discuss all this But one thing we have all agreed upon is that we need a revamp Of but our thinking and the way that we do things in Nigeria and we do hope that that will come to be And well, who else to drive this process than the people themselves? And we're hoping that Nigerians will stand up to their responsibility Hold the leaders accountable and then suggest the things that need to be done And also show working as we say in Nigeria. I'd like to thank you gentlemen for coming on the program Ibrahim great public affairs analyst Who is talking with us from? Canada right now and just is a hua bu human rights lawyer talking with us from abuja We also have had liberos or shoma legal practitioner talking to us here from Lagos. Thank you gentlemen for coming on the show Thank you for having me. Thank you So we'll take a short break now and when we return we'll take a peek into the world of sports. Stay with us