 Thank you, everyone. Welcome you to the 23rd meeting in 2014 of the Infrastructure and Capital Investment Committee. I remind everyone to switch off their mobile phones, as they affect the broadcasting system. Agenda item 1 is that item is in private and I seek the agreement of the committee to take items 5 and 6 in private. Item 5 is to allow the committee to consider proposals for future inquiries, and item 6 will be to consider the evidence heard on homelessness in Scotland. Are members agreed? That is agreed. Thank you. Item 2 is homelessness in Scotland. The second item of business today is to hear evidence from the Minister for Housing and Welfare on homelessness in Scotland as part of the committee's inquiry. I welcome Margaret Burgess, Minister for Housing and Welfare, and Marian Gibbs, team leader of homelessness from the Scottish Government. I welcome you both. Minister, would you like to make an opening statement? I welcome the homelessness commitment, which is widely recognised as being the most progressive homelessness legislation in Europe. We have seen a culture change in the way homelessness services are delivered in Scotland since then, and the development of housing options by local authorities has seen homelessness services focus on the individual or family and on securing the best and most sustainable housing outcome. Local authorities have attributed that to the continued falls in homelessness in recent years and, importantly, to better outcomes for homeless people. The Scottish Government established the establishment of five local authority-led hubs, which has seen local authorities and their partners working together to develop and implement homelessness prevention approaches. The Scottish Government continues to support and facilitate the work of the housing options hubs. We are providing £150,000 of on-going support funding for 2014-15 to assist the hubs to continue to develop strategies around homelessness prevention, including welfare reform mitigation. We are also committed to continual improvement in the provision of housing options. We are working with our local authority partners and others to develop housing options guidance for local authorities, as was recommended by the recent Scottish Housing Regulator report. Housing support can have a crucial impact on addressing homelessness and sustaining tenancies, particularly among vulnerable groups. Last week, we saw the publication of newly revised housing support guidance to assist local authorities in implementing the housing support duty to homeless households introduced in 2013. More broadly, the first year of implementation of the duty does not indicate any significant impact on the delivery of local authority services. That is because most were already engaged in the provision of support for homeless households. However, the guidance has developed joint working at a corporate level in local authorities and between local authorities and their partners who deliver housing support. As well as preventing homelessness, wherever possible, the Scottish Government is committed to delivering at least 30,000 affordable homes during the life of this Parliament, with 20,000 of those being houses for social rent. I am pleased that two thirds of the way into our five-year target, we have delivered 21,322 affordable homes, 15,088 of those for social rent, which is 75 per cent of our social rent target. The Scottish Government recognises that the progress that we have made in addressing homelessness in Scotland is against a backdrop of difficult economic times and welfare reforms that pose a significant threat to future progress. We are committed to working with partners to impact on those when we can. However, I am clear that early intervention is key to reducing homelessness, and the Scottish Government will continue to work closely with local authorities and their partners to prevent homelessness before it occurs. Perhaps I start off by asking how you think the abolition of priority need and the roll-out of the housing options approach has impacted on homelessness services across Scotland? As I said in my opening remarks, I think that the abolition of priority need means that we have the most progressive homelessness legislation in Europe. It allows all unintentionally homeless people to settle to accommodation. That is a very effective legal safety net for people who are facing homelessness. Equally important is the approach that we are taking to preventing homelessness in the first instance. That approach is key to the fallen figures that we are seeing just now in people presenting homelessness and being assessed as homelessness, so I think that the housing options approach has had an impact. It also has been beneficial in terms of the work that has been done across local authorities in working with partners. There is a very joined-up approach now to delivering support for homeless households, and I think that that practice is still—we have not completed it—it is not perfect yet, but it has been shared out across Scotland, and the hubs ensure that best practice can be shared and delivered in other areas. I do think that the abolition of priority net has had a significant impact. We can look at best practice, but nothing ever stays the same and the conditions of people presenting as homeless or the number of people on the homelessness list always move. Two years on, what is the Government doing to review the effectiveness of the 2012 commitment? We continue. Before we reached the commitment, the Government had the 2012 steering group, which was a group of key partners and players in delivering homeless support and strategy. We kept on that group as the homeless prevention and strategy group, and that group is a strategic overview of homelessness in Scotland. Meet quarterly, I attend it twice a year. We review not just the statistics that are coming forward under our current way of recording statistics, but we have developed a way of recording the prevent one, which is the new statistical recording from April, which will look at how we can best get both the outcomes and the support that are provided to homeless households, and how, if the preventative approach is delivering the way that we think it is delivering. As you say, convener, dynamic things change all the time. We are open to external issues such as welfare reform. There are other issues coming up in welfare reform, which will undoubtedly let impact on homeless households in Scotland. The homeless prevention and strategy group continually is looking at that, overseeing that. The hubs discuss it regularly, the information is fed out to the regional hubs and each local authority in their housing options team are looking at those issues as well. It is fed back and looked at it strategically. I think that that is the way that we will have to continue to do it. It is not finished, and that was recognised when we continued with the group that had that expertise. That group has all the key players Alaccio, Solace, COSLA, Scottish Government, Shelter and Homeless Action Scotland involved in it now. It is a group that works well together with a common aim. How confident are you that the Government and yourself have a good understanding of the levels of homelessness in Scotland, given that the Scottish Housing Regulators findings that said that the current local authority practice may have resulted in the underreporting of homelessness? I mean that we are certainly aware of the regulator's comments on that in something that we are looking at and the group is looking at, but I think that with the current statistics that we have, which I cannot remember what they called, H1, HL1 and our prevent the new statistical recording will give us a very good overview of what is happening in homelessness and also in housing support in Scotland, because the prevent one will record the kind of support provided and the outcomes of it. I think that we have taken on board what the regulator has said. The homelessness prevention and strategy group is looking at that. The new statistical recording, and I think that the regulator commented on that as well, will give us a very good picture of homelessness across Scotland. Just in relation to what you are talking about there, I wonder if there is anything else you could tell us to update us on the work of the Scottish Government that is undertaken to introduce mandatory data collection. How advanced is that process? The HL1, as I understand it, is mandatory data collection. The statistics that we are currently recording and the prevent one is still being rolled out on 1 April, and that will be recorded by every local authority in Scotland. That will also be mandatory, as I understand it, so that is mandatory and has been agreed by the group and by local authorities and COSLA, but that guide will be mandatory. Once you have that information, how do you intend to use it, for instance, you mentioned there about the housing regulation regulator recommendations, but for example, the success of housing options, for example, is that something that you feel you will be able to get a better understanding of? Absolutly, it will have a better understanding of the outcomes, whether or not a homeless application was made, whether or not the family or the individual were housed without going down the homeless route or did go down the homeless route, what support was provided to them, and that will be all captured and prevent one. I think that we will get a much clearer picture of what is happening in homelessness and housing in Scotland. Are you able, at this stage, to give me any indication of the timescales that will be involved in the loop there? Quite often we get figures, but those figures can be a month or three months or six months or a year out of date. How quickly will the feedback loop work and how quickly will you be able to act on information received? That information I can't give you at this moment, but we can certainly look at that and get back to you with that information. The committee has heard evidence to suggest that housing options has not always improved housing outcomes for young people. How can the Scottish Government help to facilitate good outcomes for young homeless people? I certainly think that the committee heard evidence that young people were better served with housing options as well. My view is that young people should be served better by the housing options approach, because they are looking at the individual and the range of options available to that young person. It is not just about handing someone a set of keys and saying, yes, okay, you are homeless. It is looking about the circumstances of why they are presenting as homeless or presenting as looking for accommodation. I have visited a number of projects and spoke to a number of young people who have come through the homeless route or had started in the homeless route. I can give examples of one young girl who got space away from her family. The family relationship had broken down with her father, a bit of space in temporary accommodation for a short period of time moving back into the family home. She was very anxious and keen to move back into the family home, and to move back into the family home was going to college, but planning in the future to get a flat with the support of her family. She recognised herself that she would not be able to sustain a tenancy on her own. I think that the housing option gives that kind of support and says, okay, maybe a bit of space is required. There are other examples, for example, when they might look at what someone needs, perhaps not ready to go into accommodation on their own, perhaps not able to go back to their own family home, but looking at shared accommodation, shared tenancies, matching people with someone, giving it that, I do not want to use the word, a shot, but an opportunity to meet a suitable young person that they could share a tenancy with, where for not every young person being on their own is the right option, and all of that can come out through a good housing options interview that young people should be able to have a range of options and get the one that's most suitable to them, and it's not always just going down the homeless route. I agree with the minister. We have heard some very strong positives when we've talked to people about this, but we've also heard some concerns expressed, and one specifically was the housing options route in relation to care leavers, for example. Is there anything specific that you have to say about that? My view is that the housing options route should be good for care leavers in terms of a planned programme. I don't think that care leavers should begin through the homeless route, but they should begin through housing options in a planned way prior to being taken up whatever form of tenancy they take up. I would certainly think that we've also published guidance, but we did publish guidance in line with the Children and Young Persons Act on housing protocols for care leavers to ensure that those supporting those leaving care are getting appropriate housing support. One of the areas for the hubs is that when there is good practice, where it's falling down, we need to improve it. Absolutely, if it's not happening, it should be happening, and we need to improve it. I think that that's one way that the hubs can work together to look at where there is good practice, why is it not working somewhere else, and to try to address that and get it right, but care leavers should get, in my view, through the housing options approach, not down necessarily the homeless route, should get a good service, a planned service, so that they get the accommodation that's right and suitable for them. Thank you. Evidence from witnesses is on the impact of welfare reform on housing options. We've heard that the bedroom tax has meant that more homeless people want to wait for an offer of accommodation that is appropriate for their household size. We've heard that the shared accommodation is rated for housing benefit claimants in the private rented sector has been extended from those aged 25 and under to those aged 35 and under. We heard last week about the high cost of temporary accommodation and changes to the way it will be funded under universal credit, with concern being raised about the affordability of temporary accommodation in the future. Can I ask you, therefore, what the Scottish Government has been able to do and will continue to do to help local authorities and registered social landlords mitigate the impact of welfare reform on housing options and homelessness prevention work? Can I ask you if welfare reform has meant that the meeting of the 2012 target has become more challenging? I think that there's no doubt about it that welfare reform has a huge impact on housing and homelessness in Scotland and has in some way made it more challenging to meet the targets that we want to meet and to take housing forward the way that we want to take housing forward. Certainly in terms of the homelessness strategy group, welfare reform has been a standing item on the agenda. It's also a standing item on the agenda at every regional hub meeting and looking at what is available and what can be done and how that can be shared. The Scottish Government has done what we can to mitigate welfare reform in terms of the bedroom tax and ensuring that nobody should suffer because of the bedroom tax and have fully mitigated it in this financial year. We've also given considerable resources to the Scottish legal aid board and the making advice work project to Citizens Advice Scotland and funding that can be accessed by housing association and local authorities to give people the best advice to ensure that their income is maximised and that early on they're identified if there's an issue in terms of rent. There is more coming. We can't pretend that we've heard recently from the Westminster, from the Tory Government and Westminster that they do not give housing benefit to 18 to 21-year-olds and we cannot pretend that that's not going to be a significant problem here in Scotland. I may say a bit more about that later. In terms of the temporary accommodation, absolutely there is a real issue with temporary accommodation and the funding of temporary accommodation. The bulk of temporary accommodation that Scotland is provided by local authorities and RSLs and we are very anxious that temporary accommodation is the best quality possible, we're very much aware that temporary accommodation costs more, the maintenance of temporary accommodation costs more because of the turnover and the homeless and prevention strategy group did a major piece of work on the costs of reasonable temporary accommodation and that was looking about quality accommodation, good quality accommodation but also had to take into account how often furniture would need to be changed because temporary accommodation is furnished, about how often white goods would need to be replaced, about the high cost of maintenance, voids, any periods of voids, what the cost of that would be and then looking at what can be what's available through universal credit and the difference in the cost and we jointly with COSLA wrote to the UK Government on this matter to say a look that this is that there's a real issue here because you know people need to have temporary accommodation and this costs and you know there is a shortfall here and it's partly if you're making so we've done that we've also looked at a number of other areas we have looked at the standard as you'll be aware on temporary accommodation to ensure that it is suitable or unsuitable accommodation, any accommodation that's not wind and water type will be unsuitable and we've clarified that after the housing act from the representations by yourself to do that so we're doing what we can as a Government but we recognise there are still challenges to come for local authorities and for the Scottish Government through welfare reform the homeless prevention and strategy group are well aware of this is an important item on the agenda every occasion but I mean at this moment we can't say we can mitigate everything that is coming in from Westminster we'll have to wait and see what happens perhaps with this mis-commission if there will be any leeway or ability for us to do more. I just put on record my appreciation to the minister for her action and leadership in responding to the concerns that were raised by myself on behalf of Shelter Scotland in relation to making temporary accommodation wind and water type and the further legislation that is coming forward to address that but can I ask you about the mitigation of the bedroom tax clearly to the Scottish Government with the support of parties in Parliament at the time of the budget we're able to commit funding to fully mitigate the impact of the bedroom tax but that was only because we had managed to persuade the UK Government to raise the cap on discretionary housing payments can I just ask you whether the Scottish Government will be in a position to fully fund the mitigation of the impact of the bedroom tax in the financial year 2015-16. Well as you will be aware and as the committee will be aware that the budget announced we tomorrow and therefore you know that that's when any statements were made in the budget and but generally in terms of the bedroom tax the DWP it's been based on the allocations from the DWP to each local authority area and that is when the Scottish Government's allocations to local authorities are worked out their allocation and we don't normally get that information until later in the year or the beginning of the next financial year but at this moment the budget is tomorrow not today and I can't answer that further at the moment. Okay you mentioned the situation facing 18 to 21 year olds given proposals that are coming from other parties who may be in government after the next election or not as the case may be. Has the Scottish Government undertaken any kind of assessment of what the impact of the removal of housing benefit for 18 to 21 year olds would be in terms of homelessness because you know I'm one of those who's old enough to remember that a previous UK Government removed the entitlement of 16 and 17 year olds to social security benefits and that that actually led to 16 and 17 year olds literally being on the street as rough sleepers so have you undertaken an impact sorry an impact assessment of what the likely consequences of removing housing benefit for 18 to 21 year olds would be? I think we should say that it's been quite sketchy of what we've been information we have from the UK government about who's going to be impacted by it because they have indicated there will be some exceptions care leavers will be an exception single parents and some vulnerable people which you know we don't quite know what that means so it's not as clear but it could clear but it could cost up to 12 and a half thousand people in Scotland an average of £360 a month and it could affect children in Scotland and also I think crucially it could affect young people who are working and in receipt of some sort of form of housing benefit again they would be unable to sustain that tendency without the housing benefit support they get so we are currently looking at that and because this was a very recent announcement in doing some modelling on it of what the impact will be there could be impact on care leavers who well they're not they're care leavers will be exempted we hope all care leavers will be exempted so there's a lot of imponderables there just now but we certainly are looking about the impact it will have on people the impact it will have on homelessness and particularly and also young people who are in work and who are receiving some housing benefit to sustain a tendency they might not work where they originally lived they may have moved somewhere and they're receiving housing benefit and if that's stopped and they're not in a high income bracket then it's actually adding to what we already see is in work poverty is becoming more and more of a problem so yes we are looking at that and we're aware of that. Okay and just finally can be there one of the other issues that's been highlighted in the course of our inquiry by some of the smaller housing associations is their ability to find the the resources required to undertake the housing options approach and the concern has been expressed that the additional resources that are required to do this aren't as easy for smaller housing associations to access as some of the other registered social landlords are you aware of that problem? I'm aware that that was raised as a problem to the committee but I do think you know at this stage that many housing associations including small housing associations are very much involved in the preventative approach many of them run projects funded in some instances by the Scottish Government for example people and communities fund their unemployability projects they have money advice teams they have welfare officers and all of those that may not be recorded preventative work but it's part of the preventative work that's going on they are keeping and sustaining people in a tendency and prevention will be cheaper in the long run for them so they may not see it that way and I would like to look at that a bit more about where they feel that they are they're not able to participate in the preventative work because certainly all the housing associations are visited and have visited many and many of the small ones and they are very much ingrained in their communities they are very much involved in what's going on in the community they're running projects and all of these projects are contributing to the preventative agenda they're actually sustaining people in tenancies so you're saying that the housing options work should be cost neutral that there's no financial resource implications I'm not always saying it's cost neutral but those are or doing it may not see that as being part of the housing options and the homelessness and homelessness prevention but the work they're doing and ensuring that people are getting assistance with the rent if they're struggling with the rent if they have issues that many many housing associations changed the responsibilities of what housing officers do that's very much more people focused and all of that's part of the preventative and housing options approach and it's ensuring that people are maintaining their tenancies so I appreciate that how I mean I would like to see more about where they feel that the costs are involved in this but I certainly think that we maybe don't recognise enough just what housing associations are doing in the homelessness agenda so your door is open as far as any concerns absolutely the door's always open for concerns and we will hear about that when we produce our guidance because we'll be consulting with housing associations as well and the guidance okay thank you very much okay mark do you want to continue steam of guidance the housing regulator's report did flag up that not all people who were involved with housing options were then offered a homeless assessment when it would have been appropriate to do so under the legislation they made recommendation on the publication of guidance and I know that your department has been drafting that guidance just to ask to make sure that the approach is consistent across the country when that guidance will be published okay well the guidance is it's not it's not my department my officials that are producing the guidance were involved in the guidance the guidance has been produced now from right and same with Eilatio and six local authorities in Scotland are prepared the draft the first draft guidance and they started that in June and there's subsequently been another two meetings since then and the draft guidance was the first draft was produced in September that's then being looked at I think redrafted and it will then go out for consultation because it's important and I think as I mentioned earlier to the last question that we involve everybody in the final guidance so it will go out for consultation and that will include service users housing associations RSLs to get their views on the guidance as well that make sure that the guidance is as do what we want it to do and that everyone is aware of it and it can be consistently applied across Scotland so that's how we intend to proceed with the guidance a day of a time scale for the completion of that I will defer to man for that at this moment we're working on the second draft currently and we'll be having a meeting towards the end of October on that then we'll go out to the consultation as the minister's just reference but we thought it was quite important that we didn't move to a finalised document before we actually got the committee's report on homelessness as well so we could reflect on any recommendations that you make in the actual guidance itself so that's sort of like excuse the timescale a little bit but we thought that was an important part of the full process to make sure that your recommendations were incorporated within the guidance. Once the guidance is complete and issued to authorities and RSLs just ask how you would monitor the implementation of that guidance just to ensure that consistency of approach and also to ask whether if you're making sure that the guidance is taken into account the wider health and social care integration agenda. Certainly it would require to take into account the wider health and social care agenda and I think that the parties involved in producing the guidance are also involved in the the coordinating group for the health and social care agenda so they could pull that together and also any other guidance that we've talked about for example the guidance we have for care leavers all of that the guidance has to be consistent across the board and that takes time to ensure we do that but want to be absolutely sure that it's consistent with any other guidance that is published so we will be doing that the homeless prevention and strategy group will have the overall kind of strategic role of looking at the guidance feeding back how it's working and operating to ourselves and if necessary to the committee. I always anticipate them when we publish guidance that other agencies will inform us if they feel it's not being adhered to as well and I think that's important that we get feedback of how the guidance is working not just from those that are using it but for those that are looking at it from further afield perhaps some of the other organisations of all into sector that are dealing with homeless groups as well if the fuel the guidance is not working it's important that we know that but it will be done I think through the housing the homelessness prevention and strategy group because they have the overall strategic view and homelessness in Scotland. I want to ask a couple of questions about intentionally homeless decisions and the latest statistical analysis of local authority intentionally homelessness shows that between April and June of this year there were 391 intentionality decisions which was a decrease on the previous recording of 479 but the statistics also indicate that 10 local authorities have higher rates of intentionality than might be expected so what are the reasons for that and what work has been done with those local authorities to lower that figure? We're certainly looking at that but I think it's important to say that overall it's a very small proportion of applications that are assessed as intentionally homeless and that is reducing and it is in particular areas that perhaps seeing an increase and I think it was Aberdeenshire who said that they felt the increase was Aberdeenshire Aberdeenshire said that they felt the increase was that people who were moving there with the anticipation of taking up work but without looking at their housing situation before they got there could be a reason but I'm not complacent about this and we're certainly something that we'll be looking at but I would certainly want to be clear that whether someone is homeless assessed as intentionally homeless or unintentionally homeless they're still entitled to get the housing options approach and also get support in options that are available to them in Beery House whether it's into settler accommodation whether it be temporary till some other plan is worked out for them so it's not true to say that people are intentional homeless to get no support from the local authority or from housing options it is simply that they get a different form of support they get a different kind of advice and support and I think that that's appropriate nobody should be turned away local authorities still have obligations under for children and young people so a number of obligations they've got to meet in any case whether somebody's intentional homeless or not intentional homeless but specifically in the 10 areas where they have higher rates of intentionality is there any additional work being undertaken to reduce that figure currently well I mean to reduce the figure we can certainly look at it reducing the figure suggests that the people are being assessed as intentional homeless shouldn't be assessed as intentional homeless and we need to have evidence to suggest that that's the case there is no evidence that people or I haven't had any evidence that people are being assessed as intentional homeless when they're not intentional homeless so therefore you know we can certainly we're looking and monitoring it closely just about but overall we've got to be clear that intention that the assessments in intentional homeless are falling and we would hope that would that would continue to do so and we will certainly look at it but I have had no evidence presented to me that people are being assessed as intentional homeless when they're not and the outcomes the housing outcomes for applicants particularly in those 10 areas is there any difference in their outcomes as opposed to other local authority areas across the country in terms of how they address attentional homeless people and the outcome of being given or offered settled accommodation the indications are that people in these areas are still offered the housing options and are given options temporary accommodation sometimes the short Scottish secure tenancy or are other options available to them and I think that the prevent one the new tool will be able to capture that much better will be able to capture across Scotland whether somebody what the outcome of their application is or the advice they're given is and I think that's one of the the advantages of the prevent one that will be able to get that information much better would you anticipate that the guidance will be given to local authorities about intentional that might that might help reduce it and the guidance and intention of tensionality will remain much the same but we can certainly look at and the group will look at that and I can certainly take it back to them as it is something that's been raised by the committee that perhaps that if you there's a view there's some kind of inconsistency in the way local authorities determine intentionality I'm certainly happy to to look at that and feed that back to be fed into to any guidance that is quite consistent and local authority is no clear how to assess it and there are provisions in the homelessness Scotland act 2003 that would change local authorities duties to assess for intentionality to a power to assess for intentionality and are you considering that there would be a benefit in commencing that provision and what difference would that provision make I'm not sure if it would make any difference because the power would certainly introduce a flexibility so the could some local authorities could assess more people's intentionally homeless using that I think it's important that we have the the priority need test and that is the safety net for people who are homeless are presented as homeless but I think also as long as we're absolutely clear that if somebody isn't assessed as intentionally homeless and they have a right to appeal to that if they are assessed as attention in intentional homeless that it's clear that there is support and advice offered to them so I think we've got the two things we've got the safety net which prevents any abuse whatsoever of the system but also we have the the support for people who are homeless for whatever reason so I'm not sure changing the the duty to a power would help that I'm not persuaded that that would that would help matters I think it's about getting it right and getting the consistency that you talked about earlier would be the best way forward okay thank you thank you minister you asked you said earlier on about the problems associated with the funding of temporary accommodation and certainly from evidence we heard last week there was a suggestion by a latchhole that it could be a shortfall as much as £25 million we also heard that even if there's no money to pay for that temporary accommodation there is still a duty to provide it so you know what is the government doing to try and address that potential huge problem that's facing us I think the first thing is that we absolutely recognise there is a problem it's an issue that I've raised with the Westminster government every occasion that I've had a meeting with them and as I said earlier we cannot mitigate every single impact of welfare reform but we are working very closely with the homeless prevention strategy group because they're aware of this as well they're absolutely aware of this is that there's going to be a shortfall and that we can't magic money out of air so it is about looking about how we we go forward working with them to develop a solution we haven't developed that solution yet of how we can meet the shortfall but what we are doing is A, we recognise that the shortfall is going to be there and we're working with all key players in it to try and get a solution to this it is something that in its one part of it there are other things going to come and as soon as we get a solution we mitigated the bedroom time as soon as we get that we've now got the temporary accommodation we may come to some kind of arrangement for that and then we have the 18 to 21 year old housing benefit and this is when we've constantly got we are not in control or don't have the powers to deal with all of the aspects of it and again as I said earlier at one point that the Smith commission and how we look at that and what kind of powers we can get to this Parliament that can perhaps help in these ways we need to ensure that what we do is going to assist people and not actually make the situation worse and trying to save costs one of the witnesses last week highlighted that it's not unusual for people to spend a minimum of six months in temporary accommodation even up to a year in temporary accommodation is the government doing anything to try and address that situation to in order to reduce the amount of time that people are actually spending in temporary accommodation well what we're doing is I said earlier we have the target to increase the housing supply and we're doing everything we can within the budget we have to increase the supply of housing and in social housing which remains an absolute priority for this government we're also looking at other ways of affordable housing that people can perhaps move from social housing into low-cost home ownership access to other forms of housing which releases another social house we've introduced the right to buy that we're stopping the right to buy to keep houses in the social rented sector so we're doing what we can to increase the supply because a loss of increased supply of housing means that more houses available for those in temporary accommodation we're looking at everywhere we can to reduce those lists and get people out of temporary accommodation I just want to move on to the other subject I was going to ask you about which is housing options hubs we're aware that there are five housing hubs within Scotland and the housing regulator has pointed out that not all hubs are effective and they're still in their early days and everyone's still learning and best practices needs to be shared what support will the Scottish Government give to the development of the hubs in the future? The Scottish Government continues to support the hubs both financially and with official support attend all the meetings of the hubs and there's an annual event where all the hubs get together and we're sharing best practice but it is early days but it is absolutely important that we it's incumbent and there's a us as a government to ensure that when we see the best practice then that is passed on to the other hubs and we can follow how if that's it's happening but I mean for me the hubs are working well they are working together as I said earlier it's not perfect yet we need to ensure where things are somewhere more advanced than others some were set up earlier than others they are having there's some great practice going on out there in the hubs but yes that has to be got through taken out to all the hubs and we'll continue to do that with support both financially and by using Scottish Government officials as well. Okay, thanks very much. Okay and Adam? Thank you, convener. Minister, you mentioned in the opening remarks that your addition revised housing support duty guidance just recently, last week even, I can't remember, anyway. It was fairly recently. Fairly recently, yeah. Could you tell us what the purpose of this was? Obviously the original guidance wasn't very old at all what was the need to or the reason for the revisions? I think it was to review what we previously had and also to put it on you know is it's a strategy obligation now but to also ensure that the guidance is kind of split into policy and procedures basically and the policy background to take into account I think was mentioned by a member earlier the wider implications you know welfare reform and the integration of health and social secure to make sure that it's always in context. The guidance itself in terms of the support offered hasn't changed a great deal it will be reviewed again and I think I said either in my opening remarks or in response to a question that there has been no significant change since the previous guidance and we're not anticipating it from this guidance either because as part of the preventative approach most local authorities were providing that kind of housing support that we've now put on to a statutory footing and I think it's important that we have it in a statutory footing but it was recognised some time ago by local authorities and by their partners that really as part of the preventative approach as much support as possible that can be provided to people to either sustain a tenancy or keep them in a current tenancy is the way forward so that just puts it on that kind of footing but it's something it's like any guidance that will be reviewed constantly in light of how the feedback we get because we're always want it's about feedback from those that have received support and also from those that are using the support and through the hubs and it will it will be changed again no doubt in 12 months time but I think that's important the guidance doesn't just sit there forever and we need to change it. So how is it monitored then what's the process? It's again that will come out also in the prevent one in terms of the support that's provided to people we'll be able to see that but currently it's looked at some of it's gathered in the existing statistics but not to the level we would want but most of that support will come out in prevent one did somebody get one advice was it a benefits issue did they need employability support were they referred to external agencies for addiction services or whatever and it will give us a much clearer picture of the kind of support that's been provided but more importantly the actual outcomes after providing that support. Okay final question for the session is how would you respond to Shelter's suggestion that the government needs to prepare an action plan for homelessness for the next 10 years? I think I would say I don't see homelessness sitting in isolation to housing in general it has to fit in with all of what's happening within housing and we're constantly looking and reviewing it how we go forward with housing in terms of housing supply homelessness in terms of what's happening to benefits what's happening in the private sector so all of that homelessness has to sit in the whole housing system and you may be aware we're holding a major housing event in November and that major housing event we've been working towards this for a considerable time with stakeholders with stakeholder groups to determine what are the issues that need to be looked at and this is about how we take housing forward certainly for the next five years what are the issues the challenges how we address them and the event we've already had discussions with over 70 stakeholders and preparing for the event and we anticipate over 300 stakeholders to be present at the event and I think homelessness will be very much at the core of that because it is part of the whole housing system and so in shelter we'll be involved in this event and as will every other stakeholder and that's when we'll be able to look at it but it will in my view have to be part of it doesn't sit separate from housing it has to be part of the whole housing system and also you know how we look at preventing it as well it's all it's all one it's not just sitting inside in the side of it okay well I can look forward to the outcomes of that event and it will be in November I think the 18th of November is the date we have for it okay thank you minister might want to come back and report on on that event and also yesterday we had an informal briefing from ricks on their recent report and perhaps want to say what you think about that as well but it might all tie in neatly later on in the year because anyone else have any further questions anything you wish to administer I don't I don't think so other than just to inform you about the event and clearly I know the committee will be interested in the outcome of that okay can I thank you both very much for your attendance and for your evidence today that's been very helpful can I call a short suspension to allow the witnesses to leave the room we can resume agenda item 3 is deregulation bill UK parliament legislation this is to consider a supplementary legislative consent memorandum on the deregulation bill amendments have been made to the bill to include a provision to enable the investigation of tramway accidents in Scotland by the rail accident investigation branch and separately provisions which enable Scottish ministers to introduce a regime which would permit motorsports on public roads because the deregulation bill alters the executive competence of Scottish ministers legislative consent is required so paper 3 includes the LCM and provides details of the LCM procedure the committee is invited to consider whether to report that the committee is content with the LCM and with the Scottish government's view that it is in the best interests of the Scottish people and good governance that the relevant provisions of the bill should be considered by the UK parliament or defer consideration of the SLCM to a future meeting and take further evidence do members have any comments nope so is the committee content for the relevant provisions in the bill to be considered by the UK parliament yep that is agreed then thank you very much agenda item 4 is subordinate legislation um is to the consideration of the negative instrument on homelessness persons unsuitable accommodation scotland order 2014 kind of follows on neatly from and what the minister was saying this negative instrument relates to what constitutes suitable temporary accommodation for certain categories of homeless persons committee will consider any issues that it wishes to raise in reporting to the parliament on this instrument members should note that no motions to annul have been received in relation to these instruments does anyone have any comments to make that this is a very welcome development and it's something that came about as a result of the committee and the parliament's consideration of the most recent housing bill that was an issue that I tabled an amendment on with support from Alec Rowley MSP and I'm delighted that the government has listened to the representations received at that stage and has decided to bring forward this subordinate legislation in particular extends the existing legislation to include the provision that accommodation is unsuitable if it is not wind and water tight and I think we need to remember that our role as members of the Scottish Parliament as legislators is to improve the lives of the people of Scotland and I think this is a piece of legislation that will absolutely do that for vulnerable families and children who are affected by homelessness okay is committee agreed that it doesn't wish to make any recommendation in relation to this instrument that is agreed okay thank you that concludes the committee's business in public today and we will now move to private session as previously agreed I suspend briefly