 I have the top of the hour. So let's begin. Let me welcome everyone. Welcome to the Future Transform. I'm delighted to see you here today. We have a great guest on an essential topic, and we have a lot to talk about. For this week's guest, I'd need to start all the way back at the beginning of the Future Transform. We have been thinking about teaching and learning with technology since our very, very first session. Every year, we've looked at all the different ways this works. Everything for open education resources to digital video and virtual reality. We've looked at criticisms. We've looked at entrepreneurs. Now this week, we get to introduce someone who is not only interested in teaching well online, but who's been doing it and ran a program for quite some time. And on top of that writes books about this. Robert Ubell is currently the vice dean emeritus of online learning for New York University's 10th School of Engineering. He's also a senior advisor to New York University's Steven Institute of Technology. He's an incredibly smart man who has an awful lot of experience, and I want to bring him up now so that we can talk about what he's learned about how we teach well online. Now let's see if we can bring him up on stage. And here we go. Hello, Bob. How are you doing? It's a great excuse me. It's a great honor to be here. And I'm delighted that you invited me and that all these good folks are out there to engage with us. No, it's my pleasure. It's my pleasure. Really grateful to connect you all. Now, we have this custom on the Future Transform where we ask people to introduce themselves by talking about their personal future. That is what you're going to be working on for the next year. Now, since you're emeritus, and I'm going to guess that you might be relaxing a bit for the next year. I'm not sure. But besides that hypothetical, what else are you going to be working on next year? Any projects? Any books? What ideas are top of mind for you? Well, I write a column for Ed Search about every month. And that's my major activity to you know how hard it is to write. You write so much. It's amazing that how much you put out and good stuff too. It's not just out there. It's very well thought out. So you're a model for a lot of us. So it's my column. It takes me a lot much longer to write stuff than you do. Even though I write about monthly, it takes me a whole month to do it. I do a lot of research and so on. So it's not a daily column like some of my colleagues do, which is quite amazing. And I consult for a Chinese company that provides online learning, American online learning master's degrees in China to meet Chinese students. And I'm a consultant to Stevens Institute of Technology. And that's my life these days in sort of semi-retirement. Well, that says a lot. And I really appreciate your columns. And I have to ask, by the way, where are you today? Are you in New York City or New Jersey? I'm in New York, yes. And I had a busy summer. I was in Rome. I was in a country house. That's not mine, but that I rent out on the river. And I've been to the opera, which has been fantastic in Santa Fe. Oh, wow. It was gorgeous and wonderful. Oh, that sounds terrific and well deserved. And I say that without, no, it's not true. I say that with lots of envy. By the way, everybody, Bob is very prolific. And on the bottom left of your screen, you should see a kind of mustard colored button that says equality means equality. And that's one of his most recent pieces, which I think is very important. And I just wondering if I could get you to say a couple of words about that one, Bob. How does improving the quality of digital instruction lead to improvements in social justice? That's a very good question. I think it's a fundamental question that higher education, online learning in particular has to face. 80% of students who are online work full time. That's a very different number, very different percentage from your ordinary higher education students. And in order to work online is a must. So if we think of online as an essential feature for working class people these days, we have to think of it in terms of how to improve the position of poor and working class students, because so many of them are online. So our focus has to move not only to what we do and arrange and manage for our on campus students, but our online students require our attention equally and maybe even more because they are in need more than our on campus students. So I think that's the essential takeaway from the interview that I did in the evolution. So I think senior executives at universities, colleges cannot make online learning and also RAM. Online learning has to be as important as responded to as resourceful and as resourced as the on campus student. Otherwise, a whole generation of working class and working professionals who are now online will be not well served. Okay, this is a crucial point. Thank you. Thank you. Friends, I have a whole bunch of questions for Bob, but the forum is really for your questions and comments. So I'm going to ask I think about one other one just to get things rolling, but the whole place here is for you. So again, reach down on the bottom of that screen along that white strip and click you the raised hand button if you want to join us on stage or click the question mark. And in fact, we already have one question. So I'll just beam that up for you to see. This is from Alexia Pritchard who asks, how do you define quality online education? Ah, really good question. I think one of the issues about online learner about anything that's professionally produced. The word quality is a scary term. It's often thrown at people as a challenge rather than as a help. When you raise the issue of quality, when you know that there are danger points to quality, that you're the the question often is a negative one to begin with. What about the quality? It's a challenge rather than a health. So the question that is raised here, I don't think is in that sphere. I don't think there was a challenge in that question. But I think we ought to think about the challenge that's implied when you raise the question of quality. How do you define quality? I think that's a question for higher education in general and not to push online learning aside in a different box. When you're talking about quality at a university, you have to be able to say our quality online is as good if not better than on campus. So to go through the list of what it would take to be a quality institution, that's another time and place. But I think if we think of online education as a mirror and a partner at the university, not as a separate thing, then the very things that you say are of high quality on campus have to be of high quality online. Okay, so this is not something that we would isolate by itself, but we have to keep it connected. Alexa, thanks you very much for the great answer. We have another question coming in too. This is from Tom Haymes and Tom asks, I find that many online students don't know how to learn very well. What role do you see effective student success courses playing? Shouldn't we teach that before anything else? Very good question. I'm not sure whether we should separate the challenge for students to learn well online. I think we have to make them as a a twofer. I think the faculty also has to know how to effectively teach online, not just the students knowing how to effectively to learn. Of course, they're both not easy, but let's say that we were not in the present time, where we go online to look at movies, videos, we go online to do our banking, we go online to do practically everything in our daily life. Online should be just as easy for the student as well as the faculty member to run their online class, to learn in their online class just as easily as you do your banking. The question often is, why are we asking the same question about how students learn on campus? Most data from scholars about the effectiveness of teaching face to face is just as questionable as some of the data that we've had from those who teach online. So I'm not going to give you an answer for how one prepares the students to learn online. I think once you absorb the lessons of teaching online, active learning particularly, face to face, not so much of course, but the techniques that are used in online are equally important for teaching face to face. So again, my answer is not to split how one learns effectively online as a student, but one has to broaden that issue and say how one learns effectively on campus as well. Lecturing often on campus and online is a mistake, especially online, and you will get far more response from your students if you participate as a faculty member in active learning with your students, together with your students rather than separately. Absolutely, absolutely. Tom, thank you for that great question and Bob, thank you for that very meditative and strategic answer, which covers a lot of ground. In the chat, there's been a lot of agreement people saying that we should not compare online teaching to face to face, but we should think about them as being part of the same system, just different modalities. Friends, if you're new to the forum, those two questions that we just had are examples of, well, questions from Alexia and from Tom. If you'd like to follow up with your own questions, just go to the bottom of the screen along that white strip, the question mark button, and type in your questions. And Bob, before I could even say more about that, two more questions just came in, so let me make sure they get a chance to come across your screen. This is from Michael Crawford who says, to understand doing online education well, how important is it that we distinguish between synchronous and asynchronous learning offerings? Another good question. I think the questions have been great and they're very insightful about the nature of online learning. This question, I think, has been lately by many faculty resolved itself. I think both are what's required, the synchronous and the asynchronous. You have to have a teaching style that allows students to go offline and not be constantly in the camera's eye. The asynchronous activity in which students do research, do readings, go to the digital library, respond to questions from their colleagues offline in various ways, videos and chats and email and so on. It's just as important as what happens in the video environment in the synchronous environment. What we're doing now, the synchronous environment, is only a small fraction of what is possible in a digital world. This is a very, almost a throwback, this technology to the times when you would be on the radio or on TV. This is not an advance above what has been normal for years. This is what happens in a classroom, but what you want online is not what happens in the classroom, what happens as an engaged learner with your peers, with your faculty. Those are great observations. Thank you, Bob. Michael, thank you for raising one of the great, great topics in online education. We have more questions have come in. Again, if you want to join us on stage, just press the raised hand button. You can see that Bob and I are pretty nice. We'll be very, very glad to. You don't know that offline. So far, Tina, Petler Pagle asks, as colleges prepare for their digital learning future, what questions do they need to ask to ensure that they address gaps and if opportunities and best support student success? Another brilliant question, because that's, I think, a fundamental question that academic leadership has to address right from the beginning. What are your responsibilities as a leader? Do you just throw people in Zoom and let it go or other technologies and let the faculty just do what they do on campus? Or do you have to investigate what it means to teach online? How effectively you have to go past the synchronous experience and do other things that are equally effective and more effective? Engagement is the key. If you just talk without your students talking, if as a student, as a faculty member, if you do what is being done here, that's the way to move. You have to engage your students just the way this group is being engaged. And there are more, even more effective ways of engaging your students than what we're doing today on video. Video is a great miracle thing. Zoom and other technologies like this are another miracle that has invaded online learning in a very positive way, but it's not the only way. As a matter of fact, it often is an interference with doing active learning and having students be engaged in what it is they're doing, what is the learning in being a partner with you and your students, but also being an investigator rather than a listener. In the crucial part of active learning and that is our kind of secret agenda here on the forum is to try to model that as best we can. These are great questions and they're still coming. We have one from our good friend, Lisa Durf, who goes back a few minutes to ask you this question. Isn't the best quality online a combination of the best asynchronous and synchronous elements? Yes, I have one more to answer. Okay. But I think faculty has to think about what that means. The synchronous mode is what we're doing essentially. And it has its benefits, but it also has its drawbacks. And I encourage faculty not to rely on the synchronous method to the exclusion of the asynchronous method. And to answer that question, you have to think as deeply perhaps even more deeply about the ways in which asynchronous learning occurs and how it stimulates your students and how it even stimulates you as a faculty member to think about how to stimulate your students. I think if you just stand up in a synchronous mode like I'm doing now and yapping away, it takes no thought on how best to get the students to be as engaged as you are in your material, to have them become investigators of their... And to stimulate their interest in the intellectual activities that occur. Talking does not often stimulate other people to do the same thing as you're doing. Other methods are required. So while it's true that in answer to your question, yes, both things are necessary, but asynchronous is far more creative, far more insightful, and far more engaging than synchronous learning. That's fascinating. I often think that we have a problem that multiple generations were raised on television. And so this appeals to them as a comforting medium, but at the same time, without the digital world, we've always had asynchronous teaching. This is when you say, okay, go home and read the textbook or go home and work on this experiment and then report back. I mean, it's people write papers, they write reports out of class. Lisa, great question. Great question. Bob, thank you. Thank you for that terrific answer. We have a couple of questions about negativity around higher education and online education, in particular. So let's bring up one from Sergio Costa. And Sergio asks, higher education faculty worry about a lack of socialization in online. I've never gotten a compelling example of this. I think that's more of a case for K through 12. Is this a concern for you? Yes. I think socialization is critical. And if you don't provide an arena for socialization online, then you're failing your students. Socialization is a key to what goes on on campus. Not in the classroom. I think we confuse that. Students don't often socialize in the classroom. I sat in classes as a student as a youngster. And probably 90% of the class, I didn't even know their name. I never even spoke to them. So to think of socialization occurring in the classroom, that's a mistaken idea. The socialization occurs on campus outside the classroom. Often I would sit next to somebody for an entire semester and never even say hello in a classroom. So the idea that socialization occurs in a face to face classroom is just mistaken. It occurs on on campus, of course. So we have to online create an on campus atmosphere. And that's not easy. I'm not saying that faculty members have the skill to do that, but it takes a skill to to create an environment in which students interact with one another offline is a great advantage to the students. They've learned peer to peer and they also learn maybe to meet their next roommate, their next lovemate, their next workmate for their future. But to create an atmosphere that is highly social offline is a skill that faculty members have to learn. It's not easy. You have to read about it. You have to talk to people who do it. You have to make the space for it. You have to encourage peer to peer engagement, which is a critical thing, and you have to encourage students to email them, each other to send videos to do all kinds of things that make them care for each other, not just intellectually, but care for each other emotionally. And they need it now, especially in today's environment, where war is going on in Europe, where the climate change is affecting everybody, where the illness is affecting all of us, especially our young people. We have to be do peer to peer and engage learning as a positive emotional step away from the misery that so many students find themselves in. One of the worst numbers lately is the suicide number. More students have committed suicide in the last 10 years than ever before. So we have to be very cognizant of the role that faculty online and offline pay must play in order to thank students, our students feel safe. We must have our students feel safe in classroom, and that safety can linger outside the classroom into the world. Bob, how can, if I can just quickly put in a question of my own here, how do you think colleges and universities can do that well outside of classes, setting aside faculty in classes for right now? I mean, is this an area where, for example, residents' life can do more online or depending on the institution, the Greek system or professional societies or the library, how can a college and university really just kind of thicken that social network around classes? I think it's a good question. I think the online world already has models for how people interact. I have friends online that I never met. Some of my most dearest friends now are not, I've never seen them. My editor at Search, who's a dear and careful and terrific guy, I met him once several years ago and haven't met him since. But we see eye to eye on so many things. I turned to him for help in how to write the things that I do. And so those kinds of interactions nowadays through digital means can be as effective and as meaningful and maybe even more meaningful than the casual hello on the campus. So I don't know how to instruct people how to do that. I probably should learn how to do that, how to tell people how to do that. But the off-campus experience is very powerful. And I have, many of you might also may have these friends who you've learned to get close to by email and sending videos and the dispatching things to each other. So yes, I think if the university believes that its on-campus role extends into the minds of its students outside of class, then it will play a very, very positive role in the emotional future of our students. Thank you, thank you. I appreciate tackling my question. We had a couple of responses to this in the chat. A few people recommended social and emotional intelligence. Christina Setsacum, Christina I'm trying to get your name, sorry if I mangled it, points out that the cybersecurity world of all things actually is really good at socialization. That's good to know. That's good to know. And we have more questions coming in. So clearly, Bob, you have completely failed to intimidate people and to ask, not asking you questions. We have a really nice one. It was my aim, yes. I could, I could tell, I could tell. We have another question by the negative side from Marlene Lee Kang who asks, can you talk about the stigmas of online learning and how online education evolved to resolve those stigmas? Very good question. Marlene is one of my closest friends actually turns out from NYU. And I'm delighted that she's here and that she's asked a question. She was a wonderful colleague at NYU and is now elsewhere and doing marvelous things. Hello, Marlene. So the, the battering that online learning has been given has had a serious negative effect on online learning. It was a time when the first question that people asked me, once I told them that I was involved with online learning, they all, everyone said, is it any good in a kind of a secretive, you know, I know you're in it, but is it any good? And so that is it any good question. It comes from the doubt whether online is any good. It's a very peculiar situation. Here we are, all of us, whether we're professionals or not, doing online every day, sometimes 10, 15 hours a day, if you look at your phone, buying theater tickets, buying your movie tickets, looking at movies online, all your pleasure also is so much mediated by the media. And so what happened to online learning? Why does everybody applaud their relationship with the media and with technology and digital means? Oh, it's so much easier to do this now. Oh, I could never have seen that show without this. Oh, my God, I read every night on my digital book, all these pleasurable things that people experience online. Then along comes online with the same stuff. What's going on here? Why is there so much bashing and trashing of online learning when you don't hear that about watching videos on your screen? I've never been able to understand it. I just know it exists, that there's a vast difference between what people acknowledge, what people experience and what people feel about their positive relationships with the media and with digital means and their skittishness and sometimes negativity about online. I know there's a big change and there's a vast change that happened between the COVID-19 and today. The initial reaction of students was pretty negative. Most surveys had maybe a three or a nine percent approval rating of students experiences online. Yeah. A couple of weeks ago, a new survey has come out of students and their wishes for online and more than 50 percent want to go online. So what's happened? Wow. From nine percent in the early days of COVID to more than 50 percent today want to continue to go online. I don't know the answer. I'm just raising the question. That's fascinating. I mean, so it might be that we have already done things better and that's taking hold. People recognize that and respond. Marlene, what a great question. And Bob, what an inspiring answer. Thank you. We have more questions coming in. I want to make sure everyone gets a chance. To respond. We have a call from our friend John Hollenbeck who asks us this or requests us to do this. Let's quit using the false economy of online versus classroom then. What is the learning problem? Who is learning? Not delivery of teaching. Good. That's not a question. It's a statement and I agree with it. I think the economy has to go. And I am one of the pushers in that direction. Online versus on campus is just gone from my perspective. It has no meaning anymore. It has to be the same, especially since so much of I mean, 50% of faculty have already taught online and 50% of students have learned online. So we're in that period of online learning, taking a major share of higher education. And so the whole dichotomy is just wrong. And I think the people who have to understand it are not you and me. We have no power. The people who have to understand it and appreciate it and absorb that lesson are the presidents and the provosts and the chairman of departments throughout America. Once they are in the more than 50% category, then the dichotomy will disappear because they will support both modalities equally. So this is one of those changes that just happens year by year, bit by bit. And then it becomes recognized. Good question. Good. Sorry, John, as usual. Good comment. Good comment. We have another one from Boncha, coming to us from a Manhattanville college. And Boncha asks us this. Now that many faculty have experienced with emergency remote teaching from the pandemic, what challenges remain in faculty development for online courses? A great, great question. I recommend that some of the answers to that question be found in my latest book, Staying Online. The opening chapter is about the effect of COVID-19 on higher education in the United States and elsewhere. And how the presidents and provosts and chairman didn't do anything wise. They just depended on Zoom and off the faculty went. They didn't think about because they were all raised in conventional education on campuses. And online is an alien environment for them. And so when COVID-19 came along, very few schools actually thought to train faculty and students how to go online, how to learn and how to teach. And so they just took what they did on campus faculty and put it all on without any thought that a new paradigm was necessary. So what needs to be done now is almost the same answer I gave to the previous question. The future of online learning as a quality education, as useful to its students, and especially to its working professionals, is the notion that online has to be equal to, if not better than, teaching face to face. And the presidents and provosts and chairman must recognize that if they don't, we're going to go on and on year after year having faculty untrained to do what's a core quality for teaching in the US today, teaching in the world today. Teaching active education, engaging students in their own learning with their peers and with the faculty member jointly. It's a triumvirate. The student, the faculty member, and the peers. Once those are aligned and engaged with each other, the rest comes naturally if you think about it that way. The presidents and provosts and chairs don't know this yet, except in rare university cases where the faculty and the senior faculty and the senior people are engaged. And that's, I would say, maybe 10%, maybe 15 at most in today's universities. Once the transition occurs, when they actually wake up and realize that this is their university, online is them, not somebody else. I think once you absorb that lesson as a senior person, as a president or provost, then American higher education will solve the dichotomy. That's a big strategic call. Thank you. The friends, we only have about 13 minutes left, and there's a bunch of questions here. And they're actually, they're very precise questions, Bob. And I want to give you a chance to take a whack at them, but I want to make sure that everybody's question gets to be aired. Our good friend, the very energetic Glenn Mickey, asks this really straightforward question. How should we be measuring successful learning? Very good. To find the mental question for higher education, not just for online. There are measures that I've been thinking about. That may have nothing to do with what is classically important for measures of learning. I think one of the key numbers is retention. How often do your students in your university go on to finish? How many drop off in their first weeks, first months, first semesters? The more who stay on, the more they're going to learn. The more who stay on, the more they're going to succeed in life. So one of the best measures is retention. I could mention others, but for me, that's one of the highest. For working class kids, for middle class kids, for poor kids, that's the key to their success. So if you as an institution can provide the kind of support, the kind of love that the institution needs to provide, and consequently, retention remains high. 98% of your university graduates, not 50%. You succeed. So when you said retention, my first thought was that you meant mental retention. You're specifically referring to institutional retention. Thank you. Thank you. Glenn, that's a samurai cut of a question. Really, really good. Very, very good. By the way, friends in the chat, Tanya has been sharing a link to a project that she worked on, which is a framework for trying to understand higher education quality. So it's called the AVID for higher education framework. Tanya, thank you for sharing that. We have another question, which draws on a particular population. And Sergio, I'm very interested in this myself. I can tell you why later. Following up on socialization, what are some of the tools that you've used in NYU to create community engagement among students, particularly 100% online, living in different places? Some of the tools that I've already mentioned. Some of the most effective ones are providing group learning in which students are gay. I know students don't like it usually because they get graded, depends upon how good their partners are in their group. But as a faculty member, you have to solidify that direction and try to make students engage in groups in ways that where they don't feel that their grade is going to be affected by some jerk who sits next to them in their group. I think the active learning participatory mode effect is most effective when students work together or engage together in a group project. And that could be everywhere in the world and it can be down the block. There are other methods as well that I'll start with that one. And you can see just by imagining what goes on in a group. Most of you have participated in face-to-face groups and you know the success sometimes failure when it's not run well. When they run well, you learn so much about what's in the minds of your colleagues and you get close to them. I've participated in groups all my career in different careers that I've had outside of higher education and I've gotten close to those people from one or two medias. I was on an advisory group to a publisher and two or three of the people who I met as members of those advisory groups because we met once a month face-to-face. I'm close to, I have lunch with them. We talk to each other. It's an extraordinary thing once you put people together they find ways to embrace each other. I'm still COVID sensitive enough that that makes me twitch but in a literal sense but this is so crucial. I admire the way you've used language of love and caring, Bob. Thank you. Thank you. And a great question. One thing you might want to read. It's a book I wrote a while ago. It's called Virtual Teamwork. And it has lots of methods to use to engage your students in interesting things and how to grade them fairly as well. So it's Wiley and it's me, Barbecue Bill, and the title is Virtual Teamwork. So Wiley is getting a bump right now. People are clicking on this and grabbing it. We have another question from a kind of similar angle actually which has to do with a different population on campus. Large international student enrollments. How do we deal with the international student requirements that must attend in person as part of their visa requirements? Do we educate government officials? And this is Charles Finley at Northeastern. That's a major bureaucratic question. I don't know how that's going to be accomplished except schools that recognize the power of online learning internationally not only domestically but open their doors to international online students. The company that I'm consulting for in China has done that. They make arrangements with U.S. universities and the Chinese students in Beijing and Shanghai and elsewhere go online and participate in U.S. degrees. So that's one way to overcome the boundary conditions, the actual boundary conditions. I'm lost to recommend anything else because I'm not wise enough to know much about the rules that are in place for visas. But I'm hoping, if this is just a hope and not a strategy, that the demand for being on campus may go away. That may be partly the educating government officials that Charles is asking about. Yes. Well, thank you. That's a good answer. Again, that puts us back in the framework of ongoing change. We have time for one more question and this is from the excellent Michael Haggins, previous guest on the program. Michael asks, what observation do you have about traditional institutions acquiring online entities versus homegrown? Very good question. I think all of the questions have been just spot on. There's not been one of those weird questions that you get sometimes when you're on the stage and somebody asks something from the way outfield. Your mouth drops, you have no idea what to say. But everyone of these questions happens just right on the mark. This one, I think the issue has to do, I'm losing the question. Why does it again? Okay, let me bring it right back up again. So what observation do you have about traditional institutions acquiring online entities? I guess what you have like Purdue buying one. Yes, yes, yes, yes. So far, it hasn't been an unvarnished success. I think the reason why many of them have faulted or tricked a little, maybe a bit, big way is because they're two entirely different, usually two entirely different cultures. One is the academic culture of traditional schools have had for centuries. And the other is the online culture in a for-profit world. What they've done is they've moored online for-profits together with non-profit or state schools. And those two are so culturally different. Even as a bottom line, where they spend their money, for-profits can spend hundreds of millions of dollars on marketing. What higher education academic university would come close to that? That alone separates the two dramatically from each other. So I think I'm not opposed to mergers or I'm not opposed to for-profits and non-profits or state universities getting together. But they can't go on in their new merging environment as they both did before. They have to rethink the alliance from where each of them stood before. I don't know what it could be, but they can continue in their pathways that they've followed before because it's a train wreck. And I think that's part of what's going on with the mergers that have already happened. Well, that's good. That's a good caution. And Michael, I'm really glad you asked that. The only thing that I'm sad about now is that our time is up. We have just raced through an hour in conversation with you, Bob. And it's just been an absolute treat. How can people keep up with you and your work? Should they follow you on that surge? They can go to my website, barbyvelle.com. I post all the things that happened to me or I happen to hit on my website. That would be great. If you want to get in touch with me by email, please open and eager to communicate with you. That's bobubelle at gmail.com. Those are the two principle ways. But of course, if you look me up on Ed Surge about once a month, you'll catch me. This has been fantastic. I think I've felt at ease because I'm not always at ease on these things. I'm comfortable with the questions and with the way in which you run this. I was delighted. The questions were great and your mediation is powerful. So I've had a wonderful time and I hope I've had a wonderful time too. This has been a very great hour. On behalf of myself, thank you very much. And on behalf of everybody else in the form community, thank you very much. I'm awfully proud of everybody here. And Bob, it's just been a treasure to get a chance to learn from you and your extraordinary wealth of experience and reflection. Thank you so much. Please take care and enjoy the writing, consulting and opera. It was great. This was wonderful. Don't leave everybody. Let me just point out, if you, a couple of notes, if you would like to continue talking about these issues, everything from a psychiatrist's asynchronous to how to measure learning to its cultural change, just go to follow us on Twitter. Use the hashtag FTTE or tweet at me, Brian Alexander, or tweet Shindig at Shindig events. Or you can head to my blog, BrianAlexander.org, where we talk about this stuff all the time. If you'd like to look back into our previous sessions, if you'd like to look into sessions, for example, on active learning and many on online learning, just go to the archive, tinyurl.com slash FTF archive. Now, if you want to look at more topics coming up, head to forum.futureofeducation.us where we've got the upcoming sessions all listed. And if you'd like to share something that you've been doing besides asking brilliant questions, just shoot me a note. I'd be glad to share it with everybody else. In the meantime, thank you all for this past hour, which has been a delight. I hope you're all doing well, especially as the fall semester starts. Please take care of yourselves, and we'll see you next time online. Bye-bye.