 Okay everyone, thank you for coming back for part two of Inside Leather History of Fireside Chats. And again, I'm going to start right at the beginning with my next guest. Please, tell us a bit about your family and growing up because coincidentally, you live within just walking distance of where you were born. Yeah, I have the pleasure of being able to say that I was born on Church Street and Church in Wellesley being in Toronto, one of the sort of the center of traditional LGBT community here. So yes, I was born in 1959 in Grace Hospital and I moved around a lot growing up and settled back here in 1980 and I've lived here ever since. Where were some of the places that you lived growing up? Montreal and a town in Connecticut and Brussels in Belgium. And why were you moving around so much? My dad. He moved around a lot in terms of his work and we followed. Okay. Well, very early on in life, you mentioned that your parents had taught you an interesting approach. What was that? Well, I think that one of the things that I have learned to really appreciate, I think we all go through this process of attachment to parents and then we go through this period usually during our teenage years, sometimes it lasts longer where there's disharmony for lack of a better word and we're all trying to find ourselves. The thing that my parents taught me was that I was responsible for my own actions. So how that translated was that everything good that happened to you was because of something you did and everything bad that happened to you was because of something that you did. So that actually sounds like a disadvantage and it is because it really creates a sense of responsibility of course but also for things that we may not have any responsibility for but just life happens and bad things happen and it's not necessarily because of something we did. But one of my core strengths is positivity and optimism and maximizing whatever situation I'm in and so what I took from that was when I started to deal with being HIV positive, I got it in 1984 and it was indispensable to me in terms of taking responsibility for my own health at a time when it was just crazy. I mean nobody really knew what was going on and it was a lot of fear and I had AIDS by 1990 and I was told I had two years to live and the only thing that was offered to me was high dose AZT and a lot of my friends were dying from the AZT so I didn't get on that train. I decided not to but then I didn't know where to go or what to do or what the map was. I had to create it for myself and it was in the process of doing a lot of volunteer work in the community initially with AIDS community of Toronto where I had this opportunity to contribute to programming around health promotion and develop programming and one of the programs I developed was something called HIV AIDS a spiritual journey and there was a lot of opposition to that idea because it sounded like it was kind of like I don't know pouring paint over something that was traumatic for many people including me but what I found in that circle of those men were other men who had come to a place where they understood that they were living with this thing they couldn't change the fact what could that inform in their lives how could that be a teacher for them and I learned a tremendous amount from those circles and from those men and gradually over time I figured out I made my map and bit by bit I followed it and I stuck around I was able to live through, recover from the AIDS and stick around long enough after 19 years to go on antiretrovirals and the sort of fourth and fifth generation drugs which have been very successful for me But on a slightly lighter note when you were very young a blue beach ball factored into your fantasies would you please explain that? Yeah I know he liked this story I'm not sure exactly why Well this is a question that Douglas asked about what's your first kinky memory and I don't know for me it wasn't like getting tied up at a tree or tying someone up at a tree I just I don't know I love bondage and I love rubber I like the sense of being encased in second skin whether it's rubber or leather I like my leather type Anyway so for years I think who knows what dreams mean actually but I think that dreams that I have on a recurring basis are important somehow and this was a dream that I had intermittently over about three years I guess from sort of age five and the dream was that I was I was floating through I was like this child of the cosmos I was like floating through the galaxy and no particular gender actually I mean I was just this sort of I don't know because I had no any pubes I didn't have any hair I was just but I was I was lying I was lying and I was and I was floating and I was completely covered like as if I had been dipped in this blue plastic with glitter in it and that was a my favorite beach ball at the time was this blue ball with I think it was gold glitter in it so that's the story well how did you learn about the leather world please tell us about coming out into the leather community well this surprises me to this day but I actually found copies of drummer in a dirty section of a smoke shop on Princess Street in Kingston in the late 70s so I was at the time I was a university at Queens in Kingston and you know I was I was always on the lookout for the most extreme that I could find and I was amazed at this world the drummer was this world for me that I had no other knowledge of and and I had never I never seen before I know it was just and and I would get the there was like I think they had three or four copies over like three year period like I would go back and you never know if they would have one or not and and I was afraid to ask when they would be getting another one and so and you know so get in the brown paper bag and I couldn't wait to get home and of course there were the pictorials and there was the editorial but in those days it was the the classifieds were were were in the magazine you know they were on the phone they were phone lines we had phone lines and then we then we went to to online so these ads for me which didn't have pictures but the words and the and the feelings and the gear and I just I remember jerking off to them over and over and over again and that was my introduction into leather was drummer what sorts of ads were you reading I mean I can't even imagine what they must have been depicting to excite you so much well you know I wish I had actually I could have brought some I once did I once did this talk on on pig sex at a conference in Vancouver and what I did was a almost like a performance piece where I I read classifieds that I had selected and in a certain order but I guess we'll do that another time well no I don't I don't have them I mean I could make them up we could all make them up we could each do one we could go right um no I I think that I think that even then I was always drawn to the stuff that was the most extreme I mean it was the things that were the most intense the heaviest that that was what drew me so that's kind of where I started I started with that well yesterday we had a bit of an opportunity to walk around the neighborhood and you pointed out a number of places some that are still existing and some that aren't that were all part of the Toronto leather scene the leather community please tell us about the Toronto scene you knew when you came into it well I arrived here in 1980 I had visited a couple of times before but I'd arrived 1980 and at that time the the culture was different in the sense that there were no leather bars per se in the church Wellesley area there was a bar called 18 East that some of you will remember anybody yes okay good good good 18 East 18 Eastern Avenue and that was I I think by any stretch certainly by today's standards by any stretch was really you know a hardcore leather bar that was definitely leather bar but there wasn't anything in the church Wellesley area and I think the culture was different I think wherever wherever I would go on occasion there would be Leatherman and one of the places that I went to on occasion I think a total of three times it just it wasn't really a place that I was normally drawn to but there were so many places some of you remember that there were quite a few bars that that had the gay guys went to and and sometimes in leather and I went to the manatee does anybody know the manatee a few okay all right so so that's a that's a the typical example of Toronto where the facade is still there on St. Joseph's Street but the rest of it is a condo so the manatee so I went there once and then a few months past they went there a second time the second time I went there was really significant because I met this daddy and boy they were the only ones there and leather and I was scared I was I was intimidated but I really wanted to meet them so I did meet them and conveniently they lived across the street so not so what was significant was this is the first time that I that I he became a mentor the daddy became a mentor and it was the first time that I had developed any kind of relationship friendship outside of guys that I might hope to meet when I was cruising I didn't know anybody until I met them so he died several years later from AIDS but I'm you know we talk about the importance of mentoring and and just for me even knowing there was so much power and just knowing that there was this possibility of a loving relationship that was based in DS so I think that that helped chart a course for me and that I've I've always sought that in my relationships let's revisit mentoring a little bit more you've alluded to it but what does that mean what does that how does that benefit people in the community well it's I mean you guys all know it's it's it's fundamental I mean it is it's actually the essence I think of community because we all have we all have knowledge you know we all have we all have something to offer the next person and and that's that's how community builds that's how community grows that's how community and and we have to be the ones to reach out to the new ones we have to be the ones to reach out to somebody standing in the back right now who's doesn't feel like they're part of it and and that's the way that people are welcome and that's the way that people are brought in and and I grew up into leather and sort of I guess the tail end of what we call the old guard but there's been so many I've been part of so many conversations over the decades about old guard new guard I don't know which new guard we're at now but it's several several generations from the old old guard but I've always approached that whole new old guard new thing with you know what what made sense to me and not worried too much about where it came from but but that tradition is something that I'm just so passionate about because that's how I learned you know I mean having having someone like Guy Baldwin as a mentor is you know amazing yeah and and we're all that for somebody else and and I think that what I've tried to do with with my boys or or my current slave is is really the contract is part of the contract is okay I'm going to share everything that I know as much as I can with you but the deal is you have to pass it on and that's I'm very explicit about that up front because I think that there is nothing that can replace the nuances and the conversations and the personal connections that we establish with each other and it's not just about it's not just about access to good information we can we can access good information sometimes we have to search for a little bit online and you know we all know that not all the information online is good but we can get good information what we can't get is is the human connection is the heart connection is the soul connection that happens and that for me is really the basis of all of this a few minutes ago you brought up having lived with HIV for more than 30 years and that you had a unique approach to that tell us about the early days of HIV what did you choose to do about it when you were confronted with this well I think the most important thing that drove everything to follow was deciding that I wasn't gonna die from it and that sounds you know as I say here and I say that I mean that sounds kind of I don't know what arrogance sounds kind of presumptuous sounds kind of because I know people that did you know quote-unquote all the right things that I did and they died and I did it so but I just I just figured that if I was gonna if I'm if I'm around that means I'm supposed to continue to be a service so that part was easy to figure out but I think I think that it became this inward journey I think that I had to figure out you know who I am what do I want to be how do I want to live my life and the things that I learned along that journey were you know we're indispensable I mean I was I was I was trying everything and because it turns out that there are there are other ways of looking at health there's I relied a lot on traditional Chinese medicine I didn't go on pharmaceutical medication for 19 years and I recovered from AIDS so I was I was it was a very creative process but it was also part of the journey journey of mastery you know it was about it was about taking charge of my life and figuring out what did I need to do for me and in this case it meant firing the doctor that I had because he wasn't on board with this he was too afraid that if I didn't you know all he had was the 1200 milligrams of AZT and he had nothing else to offer me so if I wasn't taking that then then he was really scared for me and so anyway eventually I found I found practitioners and and assembled a team and you know so much privilege that we have in this country and in this city in terms of supports and and those other men that I was telling you about and women as well who had been living with it for a long time also and had had had figured out some things and we all kind of learn from each other you helped to resurrect the mr. leather Toronto contest please tell us how that happened well I was actually I was working on a book at the time with an indigenous woman we were traveling the province and we were talking to people I'm gonna switch and not talk about HIV anymore in a second but it's been kind of a big part of my life anyway so we were collecting stories and the stories that we were collecting of men and women living in Ontario living with HIV for a long time and again it's back to this idea that these were individuals who identified this experience for them had become a spiritual experience and fascinating people fascinating people so doing this project and gentlemen by the name of Jay Wagner had I don't know there was some there was some politics involved we were joking yesterday that there's no no politics in our community but but apparently apparently there was some politics I don't know what the politics were exactly but so less might know but so anyway somehow Jay had this this guy Jay Wagner had gotten rights to the mr. Leatherman Toronto title which was the original title and was was putting on a contest which was in the fall of 1995 for the 1996 title year and it was about getting the title back back happening in the community back back having a representative from the city at IML etc etc and I guess I don't know I mean it was really kind of like beating the bushes trying to get some things having changed trying to get guys to come forward and and and I think you had I think you had a couple of people at the point where he approached me and I said well you know I'm working on this book like I you know this is not a good time for me I mean maybe a year from now you know I don't know I haven't really given it a lot of thought but right now I need to focus on this book or it's it's not going to get done and because I knew that if I took it and I was going to compete I was going to try and compete to win and if I won then I was going to have to do a good job and so I figured it was going to take up a lot of time and it always takes up more time than we imagine it's going to take so anyway so I said no and he came back to me I guess this was like the week before and he said I really need you to run because I don't I don't know we don't have a great contest and so I said yes and then the rest is history tell us a bit about that history what what did you do with your title year can't just drop that bomb well so there was no infrastructure really the back back in the day so so I had a I had a leather bar vest and so back in the day you know he took your took my vest into Georgia at Northbound and any and you know he put some studs in the back of my vest and no no colors no patches I think fancy my best I didn't get a vest that was how that's his low budget no it was really low budget in those days so and they got the title wrong I should have bought my vest so the title actually says Mr. Toronto Leatherman so but we didn't change it so so I started off I was sponsored by the black eagle the black eagle was amazing to me they gave me all kinds of VIP privileges and one of the things that one of the things that I I'm proud of actually is in doing the fundraisers well we all have to do those fundraiser things I had a guest list and so this is back in 1996 so I had a guest list and what I started doing was inviting leather dykes that I knew and putting them on my guest list and this was at a time when women were not allowed in the black eagle so so that started something and it was a little radical at the time and there were a lot of leather guys that weren't very happy about it but you know it was it was something I could do so I was happy to do that and I worked really hard we that year there were monies raised for something called the triangle program which is a program for LGBT youth the school program here in Toronto and for the Canadian lesbian and gay archives well you've been involved in community development work for many many years please tell us about some of the new approaches new programs that you're spearheading well I had a very long history with the AIDS community of Toronto AIDS community of Toronto was the largest organization of its type in Canada and it's known for doing innovative work and groundbreaking work and that was a place for me that started back in the early 90s doing these workshops and creating new programming as a volunteer but when I was hired into doing frontline work and then later in management and then finally as a senior director I was able to initiate new programs and new resources and I think that's one of the things that comes from you know when you have a certain amount of power in any situation you can you can use it use it for good you can use it for not so good I tried to use it for good and one of the things that I'm most proud of is a program that that I brought to act last year 2014 and it was a trans man's group project and so this was a program for trans men who identified as gay and the program was facilitated by trans men and developed by trans men and what I did was bring it to the agency hire the people and and they ran with it so they developed a curriculum they ran a successful program as a pilot and it's the first time it had been done this program and done anywhere in the world so so that lives on and and there's a step by step process with these things because then then there's no more money but you use those results to as a leverage to get to get more funding it's always a it's always a game of chasing funding for programming in community as we know so that's one thing I coordinated a production of a new web resource it's called shared health exchange and it's a it's a program about women and HIV or web resource about women and HIV and and it's won a couple of awards so I'm really proud of that and of course familiar to some of you would be the BDSM safer kinky sex resource which is a national resource that is developed here in Toronto and has a long history in terms of it started off as a little little eight and a half by eleven folded piece of paper and now it's a small booklet and it is the most sets of resource that I coordinate and edit and it is the most requested resource of all of the publications that act so it's a yeah it's really been awesome and and and with our national partner it's distributed nationally and and and it's so cool when I used to see the order forms they come in you know so certain number from you know 210 from Alberta and you know 140 from Saskatchewan and just right across the country and I've lost track now whether this is the eighth edition well anyway there's a new edition coming out in 2015 fantastic but if funding and logistics were not an issue if they were unlimited to you what would you like to accomplish with your programs well you know programs are again I just I just I'm in a position now where I can I can make things happen the programs are really driven by community you know so with the example of the transmins group the Ace Community was approached by that community to run this program so the programs really come from community and I think that the bottom line really would be if there were if there were more resources to be able to help people in more ways there's a lot of gaps in in in health care particularly around mental health and it's not it's not about not having the research it's it's about not having the resources and not dedicating the resources so I think that there's always an element of advocacy in the work that I do and the whole point of that is to try and meet people's needs better what's the biggest misconception about you I was talking to Dennis about a couple of your questions I you know I don't know I don't know what the misconceptions are if there are any so I have no idea how to answer that okay I don't know we can take I'll fill comments I don't know but I have no idea what they are what do you think was your greatest accomplishment as a title holder well I think definitely you know it was a transition year obviously and I think I'm I think I'm proudest of getting you know getting the title back back sort of on the map and and it continued for many years thereafter and I think it was really just about getting the title back and the visibility and and I've always been I've always been wrapped up in a phrase I've always been committed and involved in education work so I think that I think that I was able to help draw some more attention to some of that work as well but it really was about getting the title back up and running and if you could go back in time into your leather journey somewhere is there anything you would like you wish you could change or do better I think I think everything no and yes it's a short answer I think everything you know we we're always trying to do our best and I think that everything it's always easy in hindsight to look back and say well you know if I knew what I knew now I would you know I think that I think that I would not have been as intimidated I think I would not have been as shy I think I would not have held back I think I would not have doubted who I am and what I have to offer as much I think I would have all those times where I I hesitated you know where I had a chance to meet somebody and I just held back and I didn't you know I think that's I think that's what I would change if you know but confidence comes with age and experience and wisdom and so but yeah just to be more of of who I am fantastic and I thank you for a fantastic interview