 You know I think one of the things that's common in you know every entrepreneurial journey is that there are ups and downs And you got to be able to bounce off the the downs and then get back on the on the ups as quickly as you can You know here is an idea We can achieve this together. Thing about failure is that you have to be in the environment that is supportive of you Experimenting and trying things from CMC markets. This is the artful try Is it something that was wrong in the process or is it something that we didn't follow that the process told us? Hello and welcome to the artful trader. I'm Michael McCarthy chief market strategist at CMC markets Asia Pacific In our third season we talked to the experts in their own fields to uncover what gives them the confidence to succeed We uncovered confidence Unlocking the secrets behind resilience preparation and growth and how it can make you a better trader It's not often you sit in a room with three people that have had the confidence to disrupt industries To disrupt people and the way they view the world to even disrupt their own ways of thinking in this first of a two-part disruptor Special we're speaking to three CEOs about their journeys to start up success Stay with us as we speak to Tim Fung from airtasker Oleg Vornek from drone shield and Drew Bilby from next bar about how they've used Their confidence to overturn industries Tim Fung founder and CEO of airtasker welcome to the artful trader. Thanks for having me Tim Were there early life experiences that fostered your entrepreneurial spirit when I was a young kid? I used to you know when I put my mind to something I usually try and you know go out and get it and I'd go to various lengths to To be able to get what I wanted so I remember, you know There'd be like some specific action figure that I would want and I would actually go and look through the yellow pages call up You know the 20 toy stores and then you know ask my mom to go and drive me out to that toy store And it was really like specific that was probably like one of the early experiences And then I remember when I was young my dad used to pay me my couple of cents to pluck out each of his gray hairs So he'd sit in front of the TV and I'd sit behind him playing his gray hairs And usually he'd pay me two or three cents per hair that I pulled out But I remember once he offered me ten cents per hair And then he actually fell asleep in front of the TV and I ended up picking 250 hairs out of his head And getting $25 which for a 10 year old was like an incredible amount of money and I was super excited So I guess that was one of my first entrepreneurial Okay, so you had a lot of determination obviously and when you saw an opportunity you're prepared to take it Yeah, yeah various various nature Outstanding before you moved into a task you worked in various places including at Macquarie Bank You came there straight from University. I believe how did that inform your approach to the startup world? Well, one thing is that I think it's really good to get a basis of learning in a really high performance organization So I think Macquarie was a great learning ground for for getting the basics right and some of these things I think we might take for granted like you know being able to write an email Set up a set up a meeting You know all of these things that seem to be seem to be basic But I remember when I was at Macquarie there were little things like typos like you know sending an email out without checking Your spelling and rechecking your spelling and they're all just basic things that I think were a really good foundation for Later moments my career and you were also a founding team member and an investor amazing Yeah, so in 2009 so I was at Macquarie from 2004 to 2009 and and after that I was watching a lot of the show entourage And I wanted to be like Ari gold the Hollywood agents so I went out and tried to apply to work in a few talent representation agencies So I actually made like this really embarrassing now Calibration about myself and I sent it to all of the talent-repping agencies in Australia And I was really lucky I got picked up by an agency called chic management, which is run by quite a famous model scout I'm called Ursula Huffnagle So I went there I started working for her for free doing all her PowerPoint presentations because I was really good at that from my days investment banking Right, and it was actually her partner in the modeling agency happened to be a really senior telco executive and entrepreneur And he offered me the opportunity to work with him on building a mobile startup, which was amazing What personal characteristic has been the biggest asset to you in building a tasker? my wife tells me that One of my greatest strengths is probably that I can you know take a beating get up and go do it again So, you know, I think one of the things about That's common in you know every entrepreneurial journey is that there are ups and downs And you got to be able to bounce off the downs and then get back on the on the ups as quickly as you can I guess it's a combination of confidence and hutzpah to to keep going So yeah, I don't think there's any specific skill around like numeracy or speaking or language or anything like that It's just I think I'm I'm willing to put in the grit and put in the effort So we've spoken with all kinds of disruptors in this series Tim But when you started up airtasker there wasn't an existing industry to disrupt instead You changed the way people thought about local services What were the challenges in bringing that to to bear? Well, I actually think So it's quite interesting the parallels between something like a me sim, which was a more I guess traditional challenger Opportunity, you know, we were looking at Telstra had a certain amount of market share in in mobile sims and so did optis And we were coming into You know very specifically I create a simpler product with a lower price and and try to grab some market share doing that When you're right with airtasker we weren't doing that In fact, the biggest competitor that we had was really like apathy or jobs just not being done You know people thinking oh, I've got those boxes over there that I really should be throwing out But I'm just not going to do that. I'm very familiar with Sort of familiar with that, you know, I guess the biggest competitors the couch So I think that's everyone's secret so that's why that's probably why it's interesting problem but it did make it actually more difficult because you actually had to go out there and in a way frame the problem for people and then and Then actually, you know offer them the solution to being able to solve that problem The way we went about doing that is by building airtasker as a demand-driven open marketplace And that's I guess I guess a fancy way for saying rather than us thinking about what do you need? Like us thinking we're gonna find cleaners and plumbers and electricians and carpenters We actually started the platform out as simply an open box that said what do you need done? And you could actually type anything into that box that you wanted And that was a signaling for the customer to say this is what I need And the great thing about that is that because so many people have various different kinds of skills They were able to go. Oh, wow, someone's looking for that. I can do that I've got the skills to be able to do that And that was a really different approach compared to what was traditionally done, which was yeah I do these things. This is all I'm offering and if you know, you don't need what I'm offering then Nothing's gonna happen. I've heard airtasker described and please tell me if this is unfair as a dating site for services Well, we have had a few love stories On the platform, you know, we've had a few. Yeah, there's been certainly romances has been a bunch of like wedding proposals So there's definitely some great stories The that are happening there and I guess yet to a certain extent. It's a similar thing. It's somebody saying hey I I need this service down or I need this problem solved and another person saying yep I can do that and it's about matching the most relevant people together to get that done in the in the best possible way And in the process creating new industries new opportunities and and getting more done for sure I mean, you know, we have 30,000 Active workers every month using the platform and they're earning close to 120 million dollars a year doing this kind of work So it's something that sort of started out as you know a side hustle for a lot of people But over time has been able to become a professionalized full-time job and what gave you confidence that this would work Well, I think probably a moment of lapsed thinking perhaps and I and I say that jokingly But also I think that there is some truth in that which is that I think When you go and start a bench show if someone was to ask you to write a document laying out exactly What are the probabilistic chances of each step of the journey kind of working out? I'm almost certain that you know, you would back right out and go that's insane Why would I go and do this the chances of me being able to do something else and and then come doing that a way? Way higher So I do think to some extent it's an irrational thing where you're like I just want this to happen. It would be really really cool if it happened So that's where it kind of started But I think throughout the journey one thing that we found is that When we went out and we saw the task is who are doing the the jobs and earning an income doing it And we heard about their stories. It really was quite inspiring. It was quite emotional Actually, and and that's the thing that really gets us out of bed now the opportunity to create really good jobs for humans And I think, you know in the age of things like AI Coming and automation of jobs like that's exciting stuff We want that to happen and we want a lot of these kinds of jobs to be you know automated and make progress in that way But on the other hand, we want humans to be able to find the next What's the next thing that only humans can go and do and I don't think there's any danger of there not being jobs for humans to do You know if you look a couple hundred years ago in America, you know 20% of the country was employed in agriculture and farming and now it's only a very small percentage in agriculture and farming But you know, there's new jobs. There's Snapchat market art. There's AI data scientists. There's all these other kinds of jobs So we're really excited about being able to create those opportunities for for humans Have you ever hired anyone off a tasker? Of course Yeah, I've got my cleaning subscription on a tasker So we've just recently launched our subscription product so that you can Engage the same tasker to to come over and you know do your cleaning your lawn mowing and things like that So I've got my cleaning on autopilot with their tasker But I've also recently, you know, had a hole patched in my roof. I've had my air conditioning moved. I'd have my tiling done Yeah, I use a task a lot. I get some free credits though I'm pleased to hear it and I can see that there's a lot of satisfaction that comes from Being able to see the changes that air tasker has brought to people's lives But you've described the first three to four years of it is quite grueling. What kept you going through that? Well, I think there are there are a couple of things So I think definitely the inspiration of working with the people on the platform was an important part of it Another part of it was that we raised money early on to build the a tasker platform And we kind of had to do that because it is definitely an infrastructure type business You've got a kind of like a layout this network and invest this huge amount of money into building the platform Building all the communication the payment system all of this stuff And you know when you're doing 20 jobs a day, you're bringing in about, you know $15 of revenue a day or something you need to raise money to be able to do that and do it Well, and so one thing was the responsibility that we'd taken on I think me and my co-founder John. I both took that responsibility really really seriously and Yeah, I think that that was one thing it was kind of felt like we jumped out of a plane You know and make a parachute you got to figure this out or at least go down trying Tim Thank you very much for joining us on the Artful Trader. Thanks so much for having me Drew Bilbig CEO of Next Bar, welcome to the Artful Trader podcast series. Thanks for having me Mike. Very pleased to be here Drew, Next Bar went from an idea on a beach in Mexico to one of the leading brands in Australia Can you tell me the story of Next Bar? Yeah I can, it's how have you got? Short version please So in a nutshell I was lucky enough to spend about a year on exchange in Mexico whilst I was studying my degree back here civil engineering When I was over there, you know as you do when you're in a different environment you see things in a different light and I really noticed that that you know the better for you beverage space was much more well developed in Mexico than it was in Australia. You know I focused on the iced tea category at that point and it was about one to two percent of the market back in Australia but in Mexico it was about 12 to 14 percent So I saw you know a real opportunity to come back to Australia you know start this your better for you beverage company and really see you know and try and you know show Australian consumers what we can do and what we can drink this better for you in Australia So you found a gap in the market but what made you confident that it would work in Australia? I think you know when you're 22 and a little bit sort of unfamiliar with the industry and a little bit naive you can often see things like that as just a real challenge and a real opportunity you know absolutely throughout the process we've had huge speed humps and different things but one of the things I did when I first came back to Australia was tap my brother-in-law Troy Douglas on the shoulder He wasn't your brother-in-law at that stage? No he was my brother-in-law at that stage So I tapped him on the shoulder and said mate look I really believe in this opportunity we looked at it together and we agreed that it was a really big potential in Australia having that business partner to go through the whole entire process together really gives you that confidence and it's basically a shoulder to lean on and a team to go into the process together What was Troy's reaction when you told him your idea? He's about as crazy as me so he's super passionate about health and wellbeing he's incredibly passionate about business as we both are so it was almost like we gave each other the strength and passion and motivation to jump on board together it really made us stronger as a team to go into this and give us the confidence to think here is an idea we can achieve this together Nedra I've got to say a lot of people say you should never work with family but that wasn't the case for you Well as you mentioned it wasn't family to start with I think the biggest thing when kind of looking at a business partner relationship is making sure that the person that you're partnering with has really contrasting complementary skillsets to yourself One of the biggest things about Troy and I is that I'm really passionate about the operational side of things the running of the business, innovation etc Troy is really passionate about stakeholder management the finance of the business, the marking piece so given that we've got such different skill sets it's really easy to kind of work on different things in a collaborative way and you know you find that you're clashing less whereas if I think if you get someone that's absolutely like-minded to you and wants to work on the same things you're probably in for a bit of a tougher ride So you started with a canning machine that you bought sight unseen off eBay? We did so the product we wanted to produce there was no one in Australia that could produce it for us so we jumped on Alibaba which is kind of the Chinese eBay and bought a 2,000 an hour canning line in a 40 foot container, sight unseen rocked up with no English writing on it so we had to kind of muddle our way through together, took us about six months and finally got a machine or developed a factory in Hornsby in Northern Sydney that was functional and could produce canned iced tea and then spent the next three months pulling in all family and friends, favours from everywhere working at 18 hours a day whilst still working at our jobs and basically produced a whole warehouse full of canned iced tea naturally sugar free without a customer So you talk about chucking yourself in the deep end that's absolutely believing in what we're doing and believing we can go out there and the opportunity exists So you had your production facility you had your factory full of goods then you had to sell it That must have been a tough part of the business Absolutely and I think jumping on the road and knocking on doors and hearing firsthand from owners of retail outlets and customers about what they thought about the brand was incredibly powerful because that was our very first product that we brought to market and it was never going to be perfect So hearing that feedback and understanding where we should go next and where we should take the portfolio was a really important stage of the business So that feedback, I've heard to a story how a customer let you know that they'd lost 15 kilos by switching into next by our products away from soft drinks That's a story that gave you the confidence to keep pushing Yeah, I think the whole next proposition is our products are naturally sugar free So we in 2015 developed a blend of natural sweeteners which is now patented globally and it allowed us to create a whole range of soft drinks sparking waters, kombucha, functional beverages that were naturally sugar free So hearing stories when people approach us on social media, give us a call or email us and let us know that what you guys created has a real impact on my life and in that instance that person lost 15 kilos from just making a simple switch of a full sugar soft drink into naturally sugar free next by products Absolutely, it gives you the confidence to say we're on the right path here What we're doing is having an impact and he's making a difference We absolutely committed to completing this journey and continuing on the path we're on And you're close Next bar will make a profit next year We've been in business coming up to 10 years and we've invested heavily throughout that process in our portfolio, in our people and it's not until I guess FY20 that we'll turn our first profit which is really exciting for us It's something that is a really big milestone but also something which shows us that for the last nine years of business the investment we've been making into product innovation marketing is starting to really pay off But it's not the money that kept you going If it was the money we would have been out five years ago We are so passionate about what we're trying to create We are so passionate about genuinely making an impact and having a difference in people's lives with a particular interest in diabetes and obesity And it's that that I heard really on that diabetes is the sixth highest cause of death in Australia is mind boggling And a major cause of diabetes is all these high sugar soft drinks that we have in the market So we felt compelled and we felt that we had really an obligation to create something which was going to give an alternative to those people and have a better impact on the wider health of the community You're obviously a very positive person Tell me about the tough times Did you have any long dark nights of the soul? In the last nine years there have absolutely been times where you're down to your last $20 or you have a major, major invoice coming in for goods that you can't see how you're going to pay that and you don't have the money in your bank account And in the last two years in particular there's been times when you're not sure how you're going to get to the next stage of the business and you're staring down the barrel of a significant debt if the business was to fall apart because at the end of the day there's no doubt that the company obviously the debts fall on you if the business was to go under I think to get through those stages you have to remain positive you have to be passionate about the cause that you're trying to achieve and passionate about the business and the direction of the business There's no doubt that having a business partner that I have in Troy as well and the ability for both of us to you know, you can't be up all the time and sometimes you get to rely on the other person to bring you back up and then as well as that, having a fantastic family beautiful wife who's incredibly supportive a wider family as well which was supported throughout the whole journey is such a crucial element that foundation gives you the confidence to keep going I think without that it'd be very tough to continue to take all the blows yourself and not be able to share that and look after your mental health as well You took on the giants I mean, you're taking on people like Coca-Cola in this space Was that foolish? I think it's, you know, looking at it now it's a bit of a Dave Vesca life type story What we wanted to do was be everything that they want So we wanted to be the naturally sugar-free brand When you look at the behemoths of the multinationals you know, they are still full of sugar or artificial sweetness So that naturally sugar-free space was something we wanted to invent We wanted to completely invent another category of beverages So in our view we weren't actually trying to take on the Coca-Cola's and the Pepsi's of the world We're actually trying to recreate what people drink as beverages and give them the opportunity to really take advantage of the anti-sugar sentiment that's happening You know, give people an option when they have diabetes or obesity give them that naturally sugar-free option that didn't exist in the beverage world So we wanted to create something that they weren't and everything that they weren't and I think that's where we're carving out our niche, which is now turning into a mass-market product Right, so you're often described as a disrupter in essence you're trying to help people find what it was they were looking for anyway Yeah, and like everything this is a ten-year-ever-night success, right? So it's, you know, formulating that strategy has taken a really long time but I think we're certainly on the track of that really nice little sweet spot of getting a loyal consumer which is fiercely passionate about Next Bar which is actually now creepy into the mass-market So what's next for Next Bar? A lot of exciting stuff so we domestically is our core business and we're really passionate about continuing to expand that beverage portfolio We're also looking at, you know, snacking and naturally sugar-free snacking and the functional space as well so I think we'll see in the next 12 months, Next Bar, Enter you know, maybe the functional protein ball space or different things like that which would be really exciting but you know, I think that there's a huge market and we actually entered the UK about 12 months ago and have had a hugely positive response to that so that market for us will grow significantly over the next sort of, you know, one to two years We launched over with a major retailer over there with our Spark and Water range and it's taken off really well and that whole portfolio over there will sort of triple in the next 12 months so you know, really exciting global expansion and really focused on continuing to develop that household penetration and brand awareness in the domestic market as well Drew, I want to thank you for sharing your experiences and insights with the Artful Trader podcast audience today Thanks, Oli Mike And now it's my pleasure to introduce Oli Vorney, the CEO of Drone Shield. Oli, thank you for joining us today. Thank you Mike, good to be here You haven't always been in the defence industry Oli, you've got a background in investment banking, you work with VC, you work with Brookfield Asset Management you work with Layton you've had many different paths to where you are today and in fact even at Drone Shield you didn't start a CEO, you started as a CFO That's right. How do you find this stepping up to the CEO role? I think there is a major difference between being a CFO of a business and being the CEO that said in a small company perhaps the difference tends to blend a bit more here and there so there are different types of CFOs in different companies even in the public space where naturally some tend to be more project management oriented almost blending in the chief operating officer space so that's kind of what I was from day one in any case where you start to flow into the sales side of things and to even product development side of things so for me the step was probably a little easier but look, being a CEO you are fundamentally in charge of every major stream of the company so you are looking after the technology side of things after the sales side of things being public company after the investment side of things so you basically have to be good at all of those now you are assisted by your team and every one of them but at the end of the day your name is what people see and how they react The buck stops with you Before you started with Drone Shield you were a frustrated investment banker too long. What was going on for you then? Well, I have to say that investment banking was very different pre-GFC and post-GFC in the sense that the environment was different the volume of things, volume of deals was quite different teams were different so the industry has fundamentally changed from GFC onwards and also perhaps what tends to happen is a lot of people go through more junior roles within the banks and you get amazing talent that goes there and you form great relationships with people and you learn great skills but it does take a very particular kind of person to remain within the walls and invest in banks into your senior career and I don't think I was one of those people so all the time I started to think well what else can I do where every day I get up energised and I want to move on with my day and right now I'm certainly at that point. Dranshield has about 35 employees, is that right? That's correct. So that's not a large company and Dranshield punches well above its weight. We certainly do so a lot of it and that's one of the things I learned from investment banking is team is critical so every one of our people are consistently good so right across the teams from the engineers to our sales guys to the rest of the crew. You leverage as much as you can so today we're present countries around the world mostly through in-country partners so we do have our own offices in the three key countries being US, UK and Australia of course but then a lot of other places like for example you look at Saudi, you look at French, France you look at Columbia we don't necessarily have the relationships speak the language or know how to do the business so we rely on experienced representatives to work with us on effectively success only basis of in-country agents and then we train them we go together into demonstrations to various customers they have militaries law enforcement etc and they become our force multipliers so a lot of it is about leverage and basically making sure that you build a business in a way that you get exposed to a lot of customers. The other thing that came a lot into our favor is we caught the momentum on number of fronts so the defense industry in Australia is very much a new thing it hasn't always been that case so if you look at maybe 10 years ago there was really not as much focus on buying Australian developed Australian built defense products and now from about 2 or 3 years ago Australian government is undertaking a major focus on building up domestic industry both from the export point of view and also for use by the Australian military in law enforcement so we very much experience the benefits of that so whether you get taken around the world with support of defense overseas, Australia etc for example you speak with the French and a very easy conversation to have as well Australia buys a whole lot of things like the French submarines attack helicopters etc and also on the other end of it is counter drone industry itself so when we started 5 years ago people were saying well what are you guys doing nobody can actually do anything bad with drones to start with a drone can fly 50 meters smack against nearest tree and that would be the end of the drone so you couldn't do anything bad with it even if you were a intending terrorist but we said just wait things are going to change as every technology drones are going to get better payload is going to get better flying distances, batteries, navigation etc and sure enough all of that happened swarms of drones so probably about 3 years ago we started seeing terrorists deploying drones in the Middle East to inflict terrorist attacks we started seeing people disrupting airport flights so Gatwick most famously last year but now we are seeing drone attacks or flights around airports almost on weekly basis disrupting flights and you may ask why is it such a big issue the reason for that if a drone gets sucked we are talking about small consumer drone that's what we deal with gets sucked into an engine of a plane while engines of planes got built they are not so good at plastic objects with lithium ion batteries inside of them so that can cause blow out of the engine and take down the airplane so today if an airplane sees a drone approaching into its territory it just holds all planes imagining convenience the cost etc so we are working with customers like that to effectively make sure these things don't happen and the market is enormous so part of the reason why we punch so much above our weight is we are very much going to tell winds of both Australian government support but also counter drone industry rapidly rising and us being there right from the start five years ago so like many emerging technologies drones have been used for evil as well as good and as you rightly point out that some people using drones to disrupt you are disrupting the disruptors that's great so we often see ourselves as an anti virus almost kind of approach where with all the good applications of drones like you said there is all the good applications and drones themselves evolve all the time so new communication protocols come around all the time drones get smaller or faster you think of racing drones the payloads get better distances get stronger or larger so with all of that in mind we have to constantly refine our technology so at the heart of our team is a couple dozen engineers who are basically constantly working to continue refining those technologies and make sure that we stay in front of the developments of drones as they have and what gives you the confidence that you'll be able to stay ahead of those threats that people want to deal with with drone shield it's a good question so we have very much been successful with it up to now we see the quality of our team and one thing that I have to say is that in Australia you get the quality of both engineering talent and sales talent which is world class so I just spent two years living in the US and I've seen a lot there and US is a little bit like in the defence a bit like in acting the world capital of the industry and still very much so in Australia we see similarly if not better talent as we're seeing there so I look at the world class standard of our team I look at all the success we've done and with that is the confidence that we'll continue pushing forward so in 2016 you bought drone shield to the share market you launched an initial public offering and became a public company what did that mean for drone shield and what did it mean for you personally? Great thing about being public when you're dealing with government customers which is majority of our customers for number of reasons is you get high profile so in a lot of cases assessing the company itself or assessing the manufacturer is a very big part of the assessment not just the products for the customer and being a high profile public company our sales helps approach towards the customers because we're definitely seen as more credible than perhaps similar sized similar profile company but there'll be privately held and it certainly helps the marketing look I think our kind of technology is great for public markets because it's relatively easy to put out interesting things that people intuitively understand I think the issue with defence industry generally is that due to the nature of the products due to the nature of the customers there's not a lot that you can productively put out and educate investors with which is also why I think a lot of these companies are not public but I think counter drone is a bit of an exception where there's enough that you can put out so people get their heads around what you do how big the opportunity is and why it's so exciting all the growth ahead for me personally it certainly means high profile but look over time you get used to it and in some ways again it helps sales you go to some pretty high profile customers and they're like drone shield you're famous we heard of you So being willing to experiment and try new things must mean that as well as successes there are failures and in fact you've been quoted as saying Oling and I do hesitate to bring this up but you've been quoted as saying that you don't necessarily know the right way to run a business but you know a hundred wrong ways to run a business I think I might have caught a thousand wrong ways to run a business there look we had a lot of successes so far and I'm very happy with the way business is traveling right now but that said I think there's nature a lot of experimentation that goes with running the business so you're looking at the nascent industry nascent for a lot of customers when they buy products from us this is the very first time they ever buy this kind of product so in terms of the go to market strategy in terms of building the technology itself it's inevitable that you try a whole lot of things and some things work and some things don't and you just have to do this so whether it means appointing new agents in the country and then swapping them and there are some places where we had spectacular good agents from the get go and we're really happy about that but then we also had cases where we had to change multiple in-country agents because for whatever reason they were just not doing what we're expecting of them to do and look similar thing with tech so some products become widely more popular than others over time you can get a little better at predicting what the customers want right now we're very fortunate in that most of the new products will bring to market in response to the end customer demand where you basically don't bring the product to market until you get customers to say okay well here is specifically what I want and also when you refine the product in the beginning we used to think okay well what could be things that the customer could possibly want and a lot of that led to trial and error now things are becoming a lot more refined where customers tend to adopt you again they trust and they say okay well this is great but I want this switch in this way this design in that way so your I guess error making starts to reduce and you become more and more on point with with the customers okay but certainly at least in the early days you've factored failure into your business model was it ever discouraging look I have very understanding board and great chairman Peter James who chairs a number of large and smaller companies and I have a great relationship with him so thing about failure is that you have to be in the environment that is supportive of you experimenting and trying things so both from perspective of the team and from the board and from the investors I was very fortunate in ability to try a whole lot of things now that said the idea is that you try a whole lot but you need to have enough successes for the business to continue moving forward and evolving they must be balanced so the balance has to be net positive even if some things don't work out as much as you would like them to be does intuition play any role in your continuous experimentation? I think it certainly does but there's a question well how do you see intuition so I think to me intuition is subconsciously absorbing a lot of things that you've seen in the past so once you see a lot you kind of start making connections between things so for example when you when you look at the product and you think what could be the features and you look at different customers who suggest different things you reflect on the situations like that in the past when you have different in-country agents who want to represent you and you basically want to make a decision which one you want to go with and you assess them based on your discussions again you reflect back in the past and think what has worked and what hasn't so I think intuition as in decision making under uncertainty kind of happens all the time Trader's are very familiar with it but I think in many ways it's just the product of your brain making connections between how the current situation related to what you've seen in the past and just kind of extrapolating from that I was once told to never confuse smarts with experience as it's slightly different ways of making right judgments but the idea is that whether you can or cannot build smarts to a separate thing but as you get more experience you certainly judge better based on reflecting on similar things in the past Oli, thank you very much for being part of the Artful Trader today. Thank you, Mike. That's the end of part one of our Disruptor Special but make sure you tune into the next episode of the Artful Trader as we bring our three disruptors into conversation together and unpack how confidence can turn an idea into a thriving business.