 Hello. Hello. I'm just here. Making sure that sarin can get in. She sent a message that she can't find the zoom link. So I need to try to locate it and send it to her. Good morning. Good morning. I am trying to make sure that I send sarin the link. She's having trouble logging in. So I'm going to try to navigate that. I know nothing about zoom other than joining meetings. I'm always amazed at people who can manage it. Well, it's, it's, it's easier, I think, with two screens. I'm working from home today. And so I'm trying to, you guys can see me but I'm trying to toggle back and forth between screens so I can send her the, we send her the link. So I'll be joining you in just a minute. And this meeting was pre scheduled for recording so recording is going on I think you probably got to notice. Yeah, so just so you're aware of that. Be back in a minute. Nothing is ever easy. Is everyone else there. I am here. Okay. Is that Pat. Oh, that was Pamela but I'm here. Okay. Okay. No, I, I was waiting forever. And nothing happened. And then I got the email that said that you were going to resend the link because you weren't able to get in. But it, you know, it said I was waiting for the host, but the host never showed up. So I went back out. And then I had a lot of trouble getting back in. Okay. Sorry. No, that's, that's, um, I think that was mistakes on my end. I don't think there's a mistake. I think, I think it just, I don't know, maybe you weren't there when I was there or I wasn't there when you were there, but then, then my computer started acting weird. I don't think you did anything that you shouldn't have done. Right. So I just sent a sarin the link again. And it's the public link. So I'll look for her to show up. Do we have anyone other than me is Marty here. Not yet. No, Lisa's here. Elise is here. Okay. So you got here. Okay, great. I did easily. You got easily. Okay. So it was easy for somebody. Originally it was easy for me, but Mandy Joe Hanneke is in the. Right. I saw that. Yeah. Perfect. Okay. We need seren and Marty. Yeah. Yeah. They must be having the same problem. Cause Marty for sure. Never has trouble getting it. Sometimes Tori has and seren has frequently had trouble getting it. I don't know. Not sure. Well, I just recent, uh, seren, the public link. So she'll show up. I'll try to do that as well. Okay. Cause I think when you send the reminder link. It has a name on it. And I don't think it can be accessed by anybody else. I might be wrong about that. Right. That's the one I use. Yeah. But if I sent you the one that said Myra Ross, I don't know if you could use it. Cause we tried that once and it didn't. Work. I think that that's a protection that they put in. I don't know. Okay. All right. Let's see if I can get back into my email. And email. Tori. You know, the sad part Pamela doesn't get a snow day. I guess they expect you to do zooms, even when it's snowing. I think that's why I'm here. That's right. The good old days. There would have been. Then the good old days, there would have been a. Cancellation. Cause you couldn't get here. Now all you can do is pray for a power outage. Well, I do a thing for. Do you see that seren is in the attendees now, Pamela. You're muted. I'm muted. Pamela. All right. I was, I will double check right now. I was trying to send. Sarah and. Tori. So we do have two attendees. Yeah. So Sarah is there now. I will promote her. To panelists. So that did go through. Which is good. So she should be coming in and. Okay. She's here. I'm sorry. It takes me on my tiny little screen. It takes me a moment to toggle back and forth. I am here. Hi, Sarah. Pamela, that's worth. Marty isn't here and Tori isn't here. So they're apparently having the same problem. You did. And I had trouble too. All right. So only at least was. Perfect. Yeah. I used. This morning. Right. I did too, but then it said nobody was home. Oh. Maybe on an iPad it works. I don't know. I didn't get that link until you just send me a few minutes ago. So I never got another link. Yeah, it's automatically set up. So it should happen. Yeah. I'm just looking for her email address because it's. Her name, but it's back done. Right. Backwards. Right. I guess I'm not the missing link. Very good. Very good. That made my morning, Elise. Yeah, Marty's is very clever. It's her name backwards. Right. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. Yeah. But I think it's a Gmail, although I'm not sure. Might become. Here they are. All right. So I've just sent them the same public link, which means that they should be able to. Jump in and I'll just promote them to panelists if they're. Okay. So I'm going to go back to my full screen. So I can see you all. All right. So I'm not. Certain. Are there any areas of Amherst that lost power? Not that I know of. Yeah. I was. We technically have a quorum, although I would hate to see. Two people missing the presentation from Mandy. So I think that's really important for everybody to hear. And we have to do it today. If we do nothing else today, we have to do that. Okay. So Tracy has her hand up. So I'm going to allow her to speak. Okay. Well, we're, we're. Yeah, not officially started, but yeah. Oh, hi. We don't have people. People can't get in. Yeah. Okay, I can wait. I don't know. Or if you, or if you were okay with elevating me to a panelist or something, I won't cause too much trouble. We normally did do that. That's what they do for me at their meetings. But. We do technically have a quorum. I just really would not like to start this meeting. And the problem is I have to leave this meeting by 10 of one. So we're going to have to cut the agenda way back. Okay. Okay. So I'm going to go ahead and make. Talk about the meeting with the town manager. And well, Myra is there any way we can move up the membership. That shouldn't take too long. No, no, there's interviews next week. That's all there is to say. Oh, Oh, I'm not at liberty. I'm not at liberty to tell you who we're interviewing. That's okay. We have interviews next week. I'm not at liberty to tell you who we're interviewing. I'm not at liberty to tell you who we're interviewing. I'm not at liberty to tell you who we're interviewing. I'm not at liberty to tell you who we're interviewing. Oh, that's it. And who's going to be participant. Pam. Me. Woman. Alicia. Who I don't know who's. The representative from the committee of. They always have a representative from this. Committee that. Is there to make sure that all the things are done properly. And Paul. Buckleman. I can double check to see if, to make sure that, that link went through, but it was the public link, the link, the same one that I sent. To sarin. So they should have, if they received it, they should could join that way. And I don't. Yeah. Marty hasn't emailed us. Has she. So Pam. Pamela, where was the link. I looked on the agenda and I did not see anything. And there is a, what is that in the first sentence, it says virtually. So I can't even click on it. So I have it printed right here and I couldn't find where others found the link. Oh, it came today. Right. There's always one that comes an hour before. Oh, so. Can you, can you please check what email. It came to, because I did not get it. Into my junk mail. Where everything important always goes for me. Right. So I can double check, but it's, it is automated when we set up the meeting. So you should actually be receiving. Three automated emails. One when with a calendar invite. When the meeting is set up. One email the day before the meeting and then a third email an hour before the meeting. Okay. So my link is my contact information is incorrect. I did not get any one of those three. Okay. And I'm just checking my junk mail and I don't see anything there either. All right. So I will, I will make sure that we connect with you and that we correct. I don't see anyone else on. And the participants I will. Maybe we should start. The meeting. Officially. And the thing is every other committee reads this. Statement, which I never do. And I don't even have it. So are we, do we need to have that read? So I, I think that it is the. Suggest a protocol. The, the, the statement about the meeting being held. Yeah. And on as a hybrid meeting or online with access through. Well, this isn't a hybrid. Right. Yeah. This was all online. I'm, I'm. Of course, whenever I'm asked to do something, I'm always a little discombobulated, but. Does anybody have that statement. So I, I think I can read it for you. So we should maybe start the recording. Right. It's been recording. The recording is set up automatically. So that we start. It's your recording. Now you should have received a notice. That I didn't sign Dan to record. At least you saw it, right? Or did you see a notice that we were recording? I didn't, but I heard when I got on, I heard recording now. Yeah, we are recording. Right. Yeah. All right. So the, I'll, I will read the disability access advisory committee will meet virtually pursuant to chapter 20 of the acts of 2021. This meeting will be conducted via remote means. Members of the public who wish to access the meeting may do so. Do so via zoom or by telephone. See the instructions below. Okay. So we have only three members of our committee present. We have Elise link. We have Sarah and Darren. And we have me, my Ross. The other two people seem to be having trouble getting into this meeting. But I don't know. I don't think we have any choice, but to have it. So. Announcements we can. Sort of dispense with except. That I made a preliminary appointment. With. Jeffrey Dugan. From mass office on disability. To come in April at noon. We may have to change that. Because of the things we won't get to today. I also need to say that I have to leave a ton of one. The. Public. Comment. Is next. Tracy, I assume you want to make a comment. No, I mainly just wanted to hear what the. I wanted to hear the updates from the committee, but thank you. Okay. Okay. All right. So. I'm going to move through this. I'm sorry about all this frustration with the zoom link. Mandy is here to tell us about. And to get our input about the street lights. Proposal that has been made. By her. And to get our input about the street lights. Proposal that has been made by her and Anna Devlin. Go to the council to. To change the. The type of street lights. And to, to talk about the location of the street lights. And as I understand it. You have divided this into discussion of type. And discussion of location. So you want to just tell us where you are. Because most of the, most of the concern, I think that everybody that I've heard has, has to do with location. I don't know if that there's a whole lot of. Concern and dispute. About changing the type. So do you want to tell us what you can about that with reference to where the. Concerns are. Sure. Thank you, Myron. Thank you. For having me here today. I am one of two co-sponsors for this. Lighting policy, which would be for street lights only at this point. And as Myron said, we are the latest draft, which will be amended. We're waiting for more feedback, but before it goes back to the town services and outreach committee. Has removed sort of the. The large changes to placement of street lights. The latest draft that is out there has the changes. Or it has a section that covers the current placements. Standards with a few minor changes. But where Anna and I are leaning towards on the placement issues is to go back to. In whole the current. Street lighting policy that was adopted in 2001. We're not sure how we'll. Redo the policy. We're thinking about keeping that in place. Originally, our proposal was a repeal and replace. We're thinking about keeping the current policy in place. And adding our proposed sort of technical aspects of what street lights would look like to an appendix, but. It's still in flux right now, but yeah, right now at this point, there is no intention to change the current standards for placement in the current street light policy. I know. TAC was. Potentially concerned about some of those standards, but right now, because we've gotten a lot of concerns about what we proposed for placement, we don't intend to change what the current policy is on that. So what, what would our policy do? Our policy would basically set forth. What the standards for street lights. That means what, what the Kelvin rating is, are they more on the blue light side, which is what we have now, or our policy actually moves them a lot more to the yellow light side. It would, it would create standards for shielding for uplighting. And basically for glare. Light trespassing glare. So, so we would create standards for street lights that basically prohibits light trespassing. We would create standards for street lights that basically prohibits light trespass on deprived property. We want to light the parts of the street. Say that again, please. I missed that. Sure. Okay. Light trespass means. Lighting places that you don't intend to. Getting light in other places. So for example. If you have a neighbor that has a spotlight. They have a spotlight on their driveway that shines straight out to your yard and lights up your yard that their light is trespassing on your yard. They're only supposed to be lighting yours. We're dealing with. Public ways right now. And so part of our proposal is to. Minimize as much as possible, the light trespass from lights on the public way street lights. And then we're going to have to. To private properties, especially next to residential private properties. And so for residential private properties. We've proposed lighting. Street lights can't. Put light on private residential properties or on residential properties beyond what the full moon does. So we base a lot of our standards in terms of how much light is too on the street lights. And so we're going to have to. We're going to be passing and determining. Whether it's flowing into your bedrooms properly based on what a full moon illuminates. And glare is part of the shielding effort. We want all of our street lights to be fully shielded. And glare can be a real problem, especially as people age. And think about when a headlight is coming at you. If you're driving the need to squint or look away. You're going to have to look back to your vision and not. Have your eyes hurting because of that. And so we would like to be able to fully shield everything. So and minimize glare so that the street lights are not providing those issues, which are safety hazards. And then the uplighting is making sure that we don't light above a streetlight because the street lights are meant to light down, not up. And so we would like to be able to be able to be able to light what is supposed to be lit. And not light what is not supposed to be lit. I can go into it in a little more detail of people would like a little more detail about that. But that's sort of the whole purpose of the proposal is to be smart about street lighting. And make sure it does not harm people. It does not harm in violent environments. And it. It while avoiding those harms also provides the light necessary for the purposes of street lighting. Be interesting to know what the official purposes of street lighting are. So currently. So, you know, the purposes are in some sense what. What the town wants the purpose to be. So the purposes we've stated in our proposed policies are provide street lighting that protects the nighttime safety utility security and use and enjoyment of the right of way by the public. Minimizing the adverse impacts of lighting on the public way and adjacent lands. Protect humans help protect humans animals natural environment from the adverse effects of night lighting from artificial sources curtail light pollution sky glow. And improve the nighttime environment and conserve energy and resources using it to the greatest extent possible the current purpose. In the current policy that that we operate under right now is to provide a degree of safety for vehicles and pedestrians. But it says but street lights provide that degree of safety but come with costs of money energy and light promote promotion. And the degree of safety provided is not measurable and is highly subjective. The amount of light provided is both measurable and subjective and the cumulative impact of street lights on the skies is of growing concern. The money and energy costs are measurable. The difficult task with balancing all of those considerations is the responsibility of the select board. So, so they have, they, they've sort of covered the same purposes, but in a different manner. So, you know, what is the role of our, our committee with this. Discussions of street lights. So the town services and outreach committee, which is where this policy was referred, asked us to get your opinion on it. So here we are asking, you know, what, what would the role be? You know, as we've stated in our purpose and as, you know, some of the purposes of street lights are safe. Some of the purposes of street lights are safety, right? And, and we can discuss what, what degree of safety we're looking for. I think that's been a lot of the transportation advisory committee's discussion is what, what is that balancing and versus on the safety side, right? And for, for DAAC, I think that would be the same. I think other things to be in, you know, that might be helpful for us as sponsors would be things related specifically to your charge, right? You know, as someone who is able bodied and at this point does not wear glasses or does not have night sight vision problems. It's harder for me to determine those issues, right? But for someone who might have sight, sight issues and reaction to light issues, getting feedback about those, those considerations and what we should be thinking about as it relates to that would be very helpful for those of us that have, that don't experience that right now. I see. Well, let's have any questions. Yeah, let me tell you what I experienced with safety. That might not really be any issue to somebody that is mobile and not a mobility impaired like me who uses a wheelchair. If there is a little ditch on the pavement, a little hole or a little inclination or something, that will create me to roll out of my wheelchair. So that is very important. Like when I go out with, you know, somebody helping me pushing my wheelchair around, I always look as much as possible to see if it is a flat surface. So for me, safety might be a little different than what you might experience. And of course, for visually impaired, that's totally something else. And I don't know, Elise and Myra will address to that more. Well, I, at the moment, Elise is our perfect person to address this. I'm thinking a lot of times I walk through town at night. I come home from rehearsals and things. And for me, safety in town just as a woman being alone, I want a well-lit sidewalk and street crossings plus just so people can see me and my guide dog. And I can't tell you how many people in black ride their sidewalks on the, you know, ride their bikes on the sidewalk and cars are, and people get distracted. I think visibility and safety that way, especially in public areas like town. I don't know if I'm making any sense. Yeah. You know, yeah, that's basically. So you want sidewalk lighting to be very good. I want sidewalk and street crossing, you know, to be well lit. And parking lots, you know, like when people come at a lot of times, you know, I used to have a lot of trouble with the high school and the middle school not being lit at night because, you know, and coming out of rehearsal and almost getting it by cars leaving because it's dark right now in front of the Jones library at night. Things like that, you know, exits being lit. I have some vision. I'm not totally blind. I mean, I do use a little bit of it and I count on my dog, but, but you know, I think of safety also. So there's my two cents if it makes any sense. For me, lighting doesn't help anymore so much. So for me, the questions, I mean, for a blind person, it has to do with people seeing us, not us seeing things. But if you're a low vision person, for example, if you're walking on high street, which is dark, if you're using a cane, you can find all of the places where the sidewalk buckles, which is probably every two or three, you know, pieces of, well, there's trees and that hasn't been repaired in the 42 years that I've lived in this neighborhood. So the whole sidewalk is buckled. A low vision person would not see that if there wasn't some decent lighting. Low vision person would not see streets that are, where there are no sidewalks that are full of potholes. She's right. Which, and I'm, and for Saren, I think it would be impossible. It would be impossible to go on some of the streets. So that's partially a maintenance issue. If the maintenance was better, it would be a little less critical to have good lighting, but the maintenance has not been good. So for us, every little crack in the sidewalk means, you know, could mean Saren gets dumped out, Elise would not see it. You maybe might see it and you might not see it if it was dark enough. You know, and you were walking in a residential neighborhood that has a lot of tree roots and a lot of broken sidewalks, or if there are no sidewalks, a lot of broken streets. So for me, the issues are can people see me as, as Elise pointed out, can people see me? And I understand there's a downside for people seeing you too, which is, you know, they know where you are and they know you're alone and they can come and get you. If it was dark, it would be a little harder for them to know you were there. But if you're using a cane, it's not hard because it makes noise. So for me, lighting is better than not lighting. But go ahead, Elise. I'm sorry. I didn't mean to jump in, but it's just, it's well, that's well said. That's said a lot better than I, because I also use my cane on occasion. You're right. Good point. So for us, it's a matter of light. That lights the right of way, really. Now, when you're talking about light that goes into bedrooms, which is what you brought up. Obviously for me, it's not an issue. But for some people it's an issue. And I've always wondered this. And I don't know the answer, but they make room darkening shades and blinds and curtains. And are those things not. Do those things not get in the way of nighttime of street lights? I mean, do those things not obscure. Street lights. It does. Totally. In some circumstances and not others. Yeah. Yeah. They can work, but they don't always work. Well, it. I got mine from J.C. Penny and it's really darkening kind of things. And it's insulated as well. It works 100%. But I always also put night lights too. You know, for a, I like a little, just in case I need to reach out something. Right. Those little ones. Yeah. So you're saying that even with. I don't know, Pat. Way in on this. Even because I don't know, but even with, even with appropriate window treatments. It is not possible to obscure. Lights coming into. Bedroom. I have. I'm sorry. I have a street light right outside my house. On a dead end street. It's the only street light. So it's very bright. And we have blackout curtains that we got at Target or J.C. Penny or something like that. They work very well actually. So I. So, so what I would say is it's possible, but then you also lose the other spectrum of that, which can be important for a number of us, which is the actual sunlight coming up to help wake you up. If you've got room darkening shades that your room is always dark, you actually have a harder time getting up in the morning too, because you don't have the sun and the daylight helping you and your body tell you it's time to get up. So, so there's pros and cons of both methods. Hence the desire to make it easier to not have to use them for those that actually want. So. Go with the daylight issues too. Go ahead, sir. In a Mandy solution, do you. See people sleeping with no drapes pulled. And with no lights. Is that the other solution? Hmm. I mean, because you don't like the darkening shade. The darkening curtains, but what is the other option? Not to have any drapes that let a little bit of light in, right? I think our goal is to not make it. Not force people to have to use something to avoid an artificial light that they have no control over, which is what a streetlight is in front of their house, right? You don't have control over that light and to force a person to buy, not just say you need dark to sleep, the room darkening shades to sleep, but then you also benefit from the light to wake up to buy the shades and then also the wake up light. And all because of something you can't control outside of your own property is, you know, isn't some, you know, we're trying to sort of even the playing field across the town in terms of not, you know, having people have similar experiences, whether or not they're in front of a streetlight like Pat and I are, and some of the people that actually came to me wanting to see a better policy that controls some of this and other people who happen to not have a streetlight next to them, which is actually a lot of people who don't have them who wish that they did. Yeah. Yeah, because it's important. Right. So, you know, I, I, I mean, it's not. Wow. Okay. There's so much to say. It doesn't have anything to do with this committee. Who said that? I'm sorry. It's Pamela. So I'm interrupting just for a minute to, you asked me to comment, which I don't think that is really appropriate for me, but I do want to point out that Tracy has her hand up. Okay. Okay. Tracy, go ahead. Okay. Yeah. Well, it has to do with the streetlights. So, I mean, Myra, when you spoke to tack last week, I thought you raised a lot of good concerns. And we really appreciated your comments. And. When major is talking now just about how. It sounds like the current proposal. That they're thinking of moving forward is to go back to that 2001 streetlights policy and not change anything related to location. I do have some concerns about that. So first of all, that 2001 policy, a Guilford mooring, the DPW superintendent, he'd actually mentioned to the tack that a policy is actually basically from 1991. When a number of large numbers of streetlights, hundreds of streetlights were turned off all over town as a cost saving measure. And then in 2001, it was actually just tweaked a little bit. But. And so, I mean, I'm just mentioning this, I hope, and please, anybody can feel free to cut me off if it feels inappropriate, but, you know, just in terms of the access and accessibility, which is where and safety, which is where tack has really focused on. I mean, there are some, if the counselors are going to use that 2001 policy as a basis for their new policy, I mean, we do have some concerns about that, including there's that, I mean, there's some language about, well, it says here that streetlights in the current policy, the 2001 policies as streetlights will generally be provided as follows at intersections at dead ends and end of cul-de-sacs for road conditions, deemed potentially hazardous, you know, such as steep curves or topological changes or areas with high accident history and all the downtown streets and areas with heavy pedestrian traffic, such as in the vicinity of schools or other commercial areas, right? So it doesn't look at bus stops, for example. There's also questions about what heavy pedestrian traffic means. You know, some of the UMass areas have heavy pedestrian traffic at sometimes a year and not others. And there's also language in here that also says that streetlights will not be provided by the town for pedestrians in residential neighborhoods, unless one of the above criteria, the criteria I just mentioned is met, or the select board otherwise deems the situation to require a streetlight. And it says because such lighting could be requested virtually everywhere in town. So one of the concerns that TAC raised is that we would like to see that latter language, like take it out. It just seems very anti-pedestrian. You know, we want to be age-friendly. We want to encourage people to walk and bike at night and not get into their cars all the time. And so to have a policy that explicitly says that we will not support pedestrians in residential areas that don't meet those above criteria, I think that's just the wrong direction for the town. So I mean, TAC has made that comment before. So thank you. Thank you. Yeah. Yeah. Sarah, do you have a comment? I don't know. I don't know. It's a good suggestion. Oh, okay. Yeah. So I guess. For us. What I'm hearing. Is more even about location still. I personally have no problem with yellow. And as opposed to blue, do you, Elise? Yeah, I don't think so. You know, as long as it doesn't mute it, you know, well, I mean, as long as it provides the same kind of light. I don't think I have a problem. I remember when all the street lights changed from blue, not in this town, but in, when you went into the cities, when you went into the, into New York, when it changed from blue to yellow, I do remember that. Me too. I, it was much brighter at yellow. Tell you the truth. Yeah. Actually it was because it happened in Brattleboro where I lived as well. And it was right outside my window. Yep. Everything turned orange. Yeah. And it was, I had no problem with it. I thought it was fine. So I have no, from a disability perspective, the visually impaired among us. I'm not anymore, but I have a visual impairment memory of this. And I have no problem with yellow. So that was one of the questions. I probably have no problem with anything pointing up to the sky. I mean, why should it? We don't need to light the sky. So it should light me down toward the sidewalk. Yeah. My concerns really have to do with pedestrian. Safety. And pedestrian meaning in a wheelchair as well. That. And elderly. And elderly. Okay. You know, yeah. So if you, if you need to cross the street and you cross slowly, you want to make sure that you're going to cross at a place that's lit. So somebody can see you at night. I mean, you have some personal responsibility as well. To not cross where it's dark and then say, Oh, it was too dark. They didn't see me and I was too slow. So, I mean, people have personal responsibility. But I think the town responsibility is to make sure. That the right of way. The path of travel. Is lit. And frankly, that the path of travel. The path of travel is not dangerous. And on that one, the town has failed. Because the path of travel in a lot of places. Is quite dangerous for a lot of us. Most. So I would. Yeah. But it's not only the dark. It's the poor repair that makes that very difficult. To feel like you can walk safely. You know, you can walk safely. You know, you can walk safely. You know, injuring yourself. And I would say that holds for a lot of people who. Maybe elderly, maybe not as short-footed. So if you hit two different levels of sidewalk that are so different that several, seven would not be able to negotiate them. And I'm talking about where there are roots. Yep. So I would say, I would be able to traverse the sidewalk. Because it is so uneven. The roots are, you know, so. And anybody could not see that. If the sidewalk were better. It could probably be a little bit darker. But I guess Mandy, I have to say. That if you're trying to make, I can't remember the word that you used. To make everything. And I guess this committee is here to tell you that it isn't. No, it isn't the same for everybody. And you cannot legislate that it's going to be. You have to legislate protections for people. So that they can live safely. And if, you know, now it's sounding to me like some people are very sensitive. And just like I look for a house that's near a bus route, I look for a house that has accessibility features. Saren looks for certain accessibility features. Elise looks for accessibility features. Yeah. Perhaps when people buy a house, they have to buy one. That's not. That doesn't have a streetlight in front of it. Maybe that's a criterion, but I'm not sure that the town. Tend to say, Oh, you have a streetlight and you don't. So that's inequitable. It's just, you cannot legislate equity. You can. But you cannot, you cannot make the experience the same for everybody. No, you just, you just can't. Yeah. And all of us are here to tell you that. Yeah. I live in my area. They were raising concerns about the streetlights. There were lots of people that were against it. Maybe Mandy, Joe, and it can might be living in that neighborhood. I don't know. I don't know. I live in. And I have a, I live on a dead end street and there's a streetlight right where at the entrance, you know, near my mailbox. And they were thinking of maybe eliminating those. And I see many people, elderly people that live on my street, walking around at night, especially around the cul-de-sac. So it's an important safety concern for them. And also I raised the issue that I, if I am to go out on my driveway, I don't want to go into a very dark area. You know, it's a safety concern. I cannot run away. I cannot defend myself. You know, luckily it's not a high crime area, but it is some concerns that elderly people, you're frank on that person's side. So it's not the case that elderly people, elderly people, elderly people are not even mobility impaired or visually impaired, might feel. Yeah. I second that? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Where the sidewalk ends. You know, I mean, I mean you literally, you know, Yeah, where there isn't even a street crossing or there's totally the high street sidewalk ends in the middle of nothing and you have to cross the street to get to the other to the continuation of the sidewalk. No sense at all. Yeah. Anyway, so do we need a motion of any kind. Or is. I'm not sure whether we need a motion. But I wish there were more of us here. What do you think Pamela, do you think we need a motion. So I think that's for you to determine if you wanted to propose a motion just summarizing the committee's position in response to the proposed streetlight you would have an official record of the committee's position or. Or, if you probably propose a motion that I think, you know, you've shared the sentiment and that sentiment can be shared with the larger committee so it's, it is definitely your, your call. Maybe, Myra, we might want to say the committee. Not only. No, we want to add new locations that has changed since 2001. You know, there are more areas that became more inhabited as compared to all times, maybe they should review that to see additional sites know not to decrease the ones that are already there. Because it provides safety. For the people with visually impairments and mobility impairments as well as the elderly population. So, we basically want to say that street lights are that we believe that the, that one important goal of street lights is to make, you know, to light way finding path of travel. And boy, I don't even know how to do this. You can't put a streetlight everywhere. Some places are going to be dark. Some places are going to be like, you know, it's not even, it's not equal. It can't be even or equal. It has to be street lights are. Okay, so we can say that we support. The down, what do they call that the pointing down, what do they call that Mandy, there's a word of that. So, so we call it no up lighting. Okay, all right. So, I mean, there's no reason to have up lighting. So that would be a good thing to we support the no up lighting we support. Rather than, rather than the blue yellow line, it would be a good idea to do that. And we believe that the purpose of lighting is to support safe travel for pedestrians. People who drive cars have a different view of the world than people who don't. When you're a person who drives the car sometimes, and who doesn't drive a car sometimes when you're in your car, you're probably looking for other things than when you're out on the, you know, right. I mean you don't drive that much anymore I assume. Yeah, I don't. But with my vision. The reason I don't drive as much is because I have visual impairment now. And, but like when we were traveling my daughter was driving on middle middle street. Yeah, and it's very dark there. And there are lots of pedestrians walking their dogs there. And both she saw one. And I, I could have never seen it seen the person or the dog, until we were so close. So really for a driver with some visual impairments which are still driving. You know, it's important to have a lighting on the quite use roads, because it was a danger if I was the driver, I could have hit that person easily, because they don't expect you to be approaching they think that we will see them. But on a dark street, it's very difficult to notice. So it's for the safety and of the person using that roadway as well as a driver to so they don't find themselves getting in an accident. Yeah. All right, so we, I guess. I guess a view of the. Do you have the, is your proposal to keep the 2001 language. Officially made. So, right now are we I can't tell you exactly what the next draft will look like but we have run into very large concerns about placement, and much less concerned with the technical aspects the full shielding the, the limiting the light trespass which, which I do know if we can accomplish the limiting of the light trespass and the full shielding and all, and that actually potentially allows for installation of more lights that do not actually disturb residential areas for things like sleeping and all, because they will be lighting the only spots they're supposed to light. So, you know, we've run into less concern about the technical spots more concerned with the placement spots. So, you know, our solution to that was to try and press forward with the technical aspects see if we can get agreement on that from everyone including our town staff which is, which is we're working on in terms of that negotiation because there's there's a lot of issues with that. So, that's the initial adoption of that part, while not addressing, essentially any of the concerns with the placement issue, because that is a much larger, as we're finding out a much larger question with a lot more to hash, not just hash out to consider to do to to come up with ways to actually write a policy right as Tracy said what is a high pedestrian area, right. What is like trespass. So like trespassing trespass is other people's lack of trespass. I can't imagine that in a residential neighborhood where the houses are pretty close together that you're going to have no light trespass from any street lights. So that's where the shield comes in. Actually, if you properly shield you can actually, yes, up the light trespass from coming on to your lawn. Like the sidewalk. Lesson it. Yeah, please. At least has her hand up. Yeah, I was trying to get her talk. I'm sorry. I, yeah, it would lessen because it wouldn't be right at eye level, it would point down and shield the eye, you know, it'd be like, I don't think, you know, it would lessen the trespass, I would think but also Tracy brought up a really important point and one of the areas that I know you don't want to like put more street lights and all that's not part of it. But I think that bus stops also really need to be lit for safety purposes. So that's just my, that's it. Okay. So the path of travel, including. Yeah, all the things that are in that plus to add bus stops. Okay, so do that, because there are people that, yeah. I mean, I'd like to say there are thank you new developments that happen since 2001. So, if there are, I don't know, like if there's a development with different streets, and with dead ends. So do they still keep that policy and put a light at the end of the dead end street so if they haven't. That's what they should still use the policy for new developments as well. That's what I was trying to say. Well, I assume they put them there at the end of the street so people don't think the street continues and drive into a dark house. So even if it is a new development after 2001. So that covers all of those. So I haven't seen a cover everything that that is in the town until the until the thing changes. I see. Okay, but so it's really hard to do this. We would like to add bus stops. We would like to support the down or the not up. We would like to support the yellow. We would trespass is fine as long as it doesn't lack of trespass is fine as long as it doesn't interfere with travel with pedestrian travel. And I guess there's one thing that was said last week at the tack meeting, which I do take issue with, which was that, for example, you're trying to make things equal. There are people who have cars and drive them all the time. There are people who cannot afford cars and don't drive them. They walk a lot. They bike a lot and they take buses. And so for people who take buses, they need lighted bus stops. They need them to be lit at reasonable hours that people would take a bus so if it's after 11pm, people do in a college town take a bus after 11pm. And so if they run, they, there has to be lighting because equity has to do with people's safety, whereas you're in a car, you're a lot safer than a person who's walking on the street or waiting in a bus stop. So if you're talking about equal. And if you're talking about leveling the playing field, you have to level it in a way that makes everybody equally safe. So I guess, what are we going to say, we're going to say that we want that for us, pedestrian and commuter bus commuter safety is a paramount importance. Sorry. Anyway, can you make any sense out of that, Pamela, or Pat, because I really didn't make any sense out of it. Yeah, I think you did a great job of summarizing that you, as a committee supported that not having the upward lighting that double negative is sort of the yellow lighting and concerns for safety for pedestrians, as well as having for bus stops. So those are the four points that I caught. And I think you did a very good job of stressing that the about there needs to be a balance between safety concerns for pedestrians, whether they have like that, you know, site vision issues are not safety concerns for individuals who are using a wheelchair or other mobility devices. And those concerns have to be balanced against the desire to have less light pollution and less, less light trespass. So I think you did an excellent job. Are we saying, are we saying balanced are we saying supersede. So that's a decision for you to me. I don't know. That's what I'm asking Sarah and Elise. I want to clarify that a little bit. Well, Pamela described it very judiciously as balanced. And yes, there is a balance but is it an equal balance. For me, the balance has to be on the side of safety. Rather than the side of inconvenience, because there are things just like everyone on this committee compensates for what we can't do all the time by doing it a different way. There are compensations for light coming in the window. And there are compensations for not being able to wake up with the sun, which one of which is called winter. Because most people that work have to get up before the sun in the winter. So, I, you know, I, for me, I feel like it has to be balanced tilted towards safety. And also for the people that will be harmed. Not only people with mobility impairments and visual impairments, but seniors as well. Okay. So, what are the things that you're going to throw in? We're living in, I mean, there are, we're in a spot where everybody's talking about aging in place and making it elderly friendly. This is one of the things that has to be considered. So as part of the age and dementia family, a friendly community. I think the most important thing about this ability is we support the know up, we support the light. We, we are interested in pedestrian and wheelchair safety. And we're interested in bus stops, but the balance, I would say, where you had the word balance, I would say, I think we want balance skewed towards safety. Yes. Yes. Yeah, I totally agree. So, Pamela, can you read something that looks like a motion. I think that I think that you that you've captured it. Okay, right. So, um, Elise, do you, how do you vote. I vote yes, well somebody has to move this. Yeah, I'm going to move this nebulous. I'm sorry, you broke up. What did you say? I wouldn't know how to begin. I mean, I just say, just say I move Pamela's language. Okay, I move. Yeah, I move. I don't know how to put it. I'm going to suggest that Mandy, actually she's wonderful at putting things into motions. This would not be my strength. More mine. Did a great job. Maybe Mandy just pushing over the edge for the rest of you. Yeah, she does. It's true. I will second it though. Okay. So, it's Pamela put it right the motion that was kind of summarizing for us. Yes. So how do you vote, Sarah. I would vote for yes. Okay, how do you vote Elise. Yes. And I would vote yes. And I'm so sorry. The other two people aren't here because I'm sure they would say the same thing. Anyway, Mandy, I really appreciate your presence. And I appreciate you're bringing this up because we always have to bring up things that maybe need to be rethought. And then you get to see that there's a lot of people that feel different and they're not necessarily in the same way. But I guess that's a significant part of your performance. I suppose. And at least you guys are going to accomplish something unlike the national government, but that's. I want to say thank you for all of your thoughts. And the motion itself, but, but the support for some of the technical aspects and your thoughts on just navigating. Particularly as pedestrians and bus users. Through visiting all of these, the placement issue is near and dear to everyone's heart, which makes it extremely hard to talk about and to figure out what is right. Right. And so we're doing the best we can as sponsors to figure out how we can move forward with certain aspects and then what to do with the other aspects because it's clear from all of our discussions with all of the committees and just what we've heard from the people coming in that placement probably needs to be looked at in a more formal way than just two counselors proposing a change right. I'm not sure how we get there on that but it's clear that there's there's a lot of different views and concerns about what we do and don't like in this time. Yep. Oh, I'm so many levels. All right. Thank you very much for giving us the time and for talking to us. I appreciate it. Okay, given that I have to leave in like 10 minutes, I want to tell you that there will be interviews for the two vacant positions on this committee. Next Wednesday we're interviewing three people. And then the town manager will make a decision about who gets appointed. It's his decision. And then he will bring his proposal to the to the town council and at some point they will approve people and then we will have more members. So that's really good. The other piece, the other piece that I know we can do you know anything about the $50,000 Pamela about proposals that different off different town departments have made for that. I have not found out any additional information on that. And Chris and go for who were here with us. And I know Chris had told me earlier that she had to leave because of a personal obligation. So she dropped off and I'm unsure what about Guilford schedule but I know that the town office is closed today at noon so I can may have dropped off. Yeah, as I mean we just had ridiculous impediments to getting this meeting going so yeah. Okay. All right, so we'll bring that up again. There was a meeting with town manager on the 17th of February, Pamela attended Pat attended Marty attended the town manager. And me, right, that was it. I think. And we talked about the pedestrian accessible pedestrian signals repair situation. And the way we had a nice talk that went on for a long time actually. And I think the town manager heard us about, you know, we had this, there was $30,000 that I was told was available for this project he was going to check and to see where that came from because he seemed not to be sure he thought perhaps it was leftover from something. I don't know how that ended up Pat to you. Not yet but I can email him today. I also made a phone call to the gentleman from Ocean State signal that sells the and sells the accessible pedestrian add ons to traffic signals, and to ask if he had been contacted by anyone from the town yet and I have not yet heard from them. So it's possible that he has and it's possible that he hasn't heard from them so if Pat if you could find out from Paul where we are on all of this, because you have access to Paul that we don't have. That would be great if you could find out, you know, where they are have they contacted the company, but we did have a nice talk and I think I don't know, I mean Pamela and Pat you don't feel like you can speak at these meetings but I wish you would because you were present. And maybe I'm forgetting something important that needs to be said. If you ask us to like answer a question or things like that that's what we can do. And there's a fight coming up in council about whether what a liaison's role is and but I'm, I always like to jump in and I think that it's not always the right thing to do. I'm inviting you to because you were present. Yes, I might not have remembered something important that I should say other than that he heard us, and that, you know, we talked about how things had lack had not evolved on that topic, and he seemed like he was very interested but he wanted us. He wanted us to prioritize where we would want the signals if he didn't have enough money and Marty, and I both agreed that it all depends on how much they cost, like if one signal will eat up the whole budget. That might not be the best use of the money, whereas if you could get the whole budget, you know, to cover several signals and then do more next year, we might prefer that. So we were waiting to hear about what each one would cost before we were able to prioritize and I don't know how you feel about that Sarah and Elise. It makes sense, you know, if he makes it. If you have limited funds that you cannot do everything prioritize to the most use once go with them first maybe make sense. Okay. Well, we didn't know how much each one would cost so we really weren't prepared to answer that question, but you would like it to be for something that is utilized most, you know, yeah, I think, yeah, there are quite a few places that are utilized a lot. Yeah. You know, if you don't know we could make a survey to see which is you know there could be some people with visual impairments living in a complex close to, for example, the one by the. I don't remember the name of the street, but you know in a special area, then we can identify and then it doesn't seem like in the middle of the city of the town, but widely use otherwise you know, and identify. You know, like the one I'm talking about at the intersection of main street and the triangle street. Yeah. That's the one that I would use but I think a lot of other people might not. So I think the center of town once might be the best way to start like a Kellogg in North Pleasant and, but it all depends how much they cost. And, and he didn't, he seemed he wanted us to say, do this, and neither one felt like we could do that. So, I think we have to wait to find out the details, and I would know for the most popular places and most well traveled. Okay. All right. Um, now the other thing we were going to talk about the. Oh, Jones library is coming in April. Remember how so several of you wanted to get on the building committee, none of you were chosen. And, but they're coming in April. So that's our meeting in April is with the M. O. D. guy and Jones library and we were going to talk about do you have anything to say about North Amherst library really quickly. Because I have three minutes. Oh, we were, we were going to do something about the. What was it. The listening devices. Yes, yes, yes. What happens. So I've, I have, I did ask that question, and I was told, but have not confirmed that the North library would have assisted listening devices so Guilford was going to address that because he's the project manager for that project. So I, I, the initial information I got is that they will be there, but I think we want to have confirmation from Guilford and I can reach out to him by email and at least try to answer that question and share the answer with the. That would be great. Yeah, hopefully he'll answer you. But that would be great. Okay. So I guess the other thing is the North Common, which is, I don't think there's much to talk about with that, right? I think they were going. Oh, they did. Okay, right. Oh, I forgot when they did that. Okay, you don't know about that. They went on a walk about, and I think they were fine with the suggestions that this committee made. Whereas the entrance to town hall is going to be complicated. Because the topography is very difficult. And they were still going to try to Marty was even still going to try to figure out what should be done. They had talked perhaps about making the back door accessible there is a ramp that goes down that's too steep but they were trying to figure out, maybe that that would be a way to park and be able to walk in, you know, to roll into town hall and get to the elevator, which you cannot do for Main Street, because of the topography, even if they did fix the sidewalk and make it level, you know, make it, you know, not broken. I don't, I think that they were that the, the slopes were so great that I don't think Marty could figure out how to do it. And I think they were still going to talk about that, but they didn't have an easy answer. There is a couple of on the what side it is on the side next to the Amherst College side on the back. There is an entry to the second level. And there are a couple of steps to entry could something we like a stair lift or something be installed or the church, you mean. No, no, not for the town hall. Right. Yeah, on the church side. Yes, on the church side. Okay, okay, okay, the south side. Okay. Yeah. Yeah, I think that that south side entrance would pose problems because there's a driveway there. And so you don't, I believe have enough clearance between the driveway in the, and that side entrance to create a ramp with the right so it's the same, a similar problem that you have. I wasn't thinking of a ramp necessarily, maybe a stair lift. So that I don't know but yeah that I mean that is, and then it could open the entrance to that could open it the same way the stairs are pointing right now. So I think it's important to have Marty in this conversation. Right, because I think she has done a lot of checking and thinking and they were, they were really trying to figure it out. They know they're not in compliance, which is the good news the town is definitely on notice that they're not in compliance. I don't know how much they're going to be able to do beyond that but I know Marty is trying to figure it out. Anyway, I need to leave so if we are going if you want to continue the meeting that's why you can't really because I'm the quorum. Yeah, anyway, so I guess. Very awkward. I mean I did everything out of order I did it because Mandy was there I should have done it because the Guilford was there I didn't know which one of them I should. Anyway, yeah, I probably didn't do it right. Anyway, okay. All right, so is there anything else we need to know or do. I think this is very nice. So I will, I will email you after the close of this meeting to make sure that the email address I have is the same one that I got the one that you just sent. So that I got but nothing else before that so there's something someplace. I'll make sure that agenda has Jeff Dugan on it for the April meeting as well as the Jones library folks. So I will. Okay. One question about Jeff Dugan. What is the organization he's with. He's he is with the Massachusetts office on disability. Gotcha. Right. Thank you very much and thank you everyone. Thank you. So, I'm, I'm going to note that we're adjourning at 1253. Okay, very good. Bye bye. Bye. Thank you.