 a dyna i'r fflaenio a chi'n dwi'n gweld o'r bod yn unig yn fathion. Felly mae'r maen nhw i'r mewn iawn a gwneud eich teimlo i Mae Fawr Pa-R Ladyu inabaith yma. Mae Alun Wysigol i Deymlu'n Moedd Sagi Aml-Leih. Mae Alun Wysigol i'r Pounderin hefyd yn y Fawr Maer i'r lidi, neu'r myriad at y llol, a o'i gwell rhoi mae ein fadebwrdd Abern plain yn ôl mewn iawn, ac mae'n adrygiad yn ychydig arwyr. Mae'r gofod i'r teimlo i ddwy'r ddiw. Rydym ni'n rhaid yn ei ffordd i'r holl fel ymlaen iawn. Mae'n mynd i ddechrau yn y Llesintoedd, ond rym ni'n meddiw i'r pwysig. Rwy'n meddwl'n gweithio, mae'r pwysig yn ymlaen, a oeddwn ni'n meddwl i'r pwysig i gael ei wneud, a'r rai, yn gweithio, bod Llesintoedd yn ymddiol. Rwy'n meddwl i'r prysgol, ond mae'n meddwl i'r pwysig, rwy'n meddwl i'r pwysig i'r pwysig, iawn o gwyfodol yma o'r cyfnodol yn ei wneud yn ysgrifennu ar gyfer y cyfnodol, yn y George L Llyfr Nes, yn ymdweud yn yr Aelod yma o'r Sfodol Llyfr Nes. Pefyd, mae'n amser Cathrin Diggs, ymdweud yn yr Oeddeniad o'r Sfodol Llyfr Nes ac yn yr Oeddeniad o'r pwysig crys, yn'n gwyfodol o'r pwysig crys. Yn y peth yn ystod yw i'ch ddweud, at this moment when this standing, which was already high, has increased even more and report very much to his talk, and bigger. You may not have heard of them, but of course, if you were a denizen of Buddha's town, you had to double it, you know about him, because there's a blue plaque outside the house of Buddha's town. There's a little church, there's also another plaque to him, so being there, I don't know if those were sort of frequently frequented, which was kind of a little bad, and I don't know of course because I think it's just a work on making the essence in any way of the writing. So without further ado, I'm going to call on the guy to speak to us after which we'll have a few questions. Thank you. Thank you very much for showing up on a rainy night. Such great numbers, it's fantastic. I've been told that I should speak from the podium, usually I wonder around the space, but since it's being recorded, so I have to stand in front of the microphone and I'll do as such, as I've been instructed. It's a great privilege to be here, not only in these remarkable surroundings, but the day I arrived, the day after I arrived, Christian brought me in here and took me on a choice that he would be speaking in this room, so this is a waiting for this to go for since I arrived, and really being in Boston College, which is a comparable place to be in Burns Library, working with the connections of the Burns Library, and also having the privilege of teaching students, and seeing quite a few both undergraduate and graduate students here, which is a great privilege to see people here and colleagues. And this really is one of the leading centres of our studies, definitely North America and the world. So it's a moment of reference for me, so thank you very much for recording this honour to me. I'll be trying out some new research here, or something different from what I've done. It touches on things which tangentially touch on the book, I'll comment on that. So it somehow relates to the book, which I've been giving lots of talks recently all down about the book, but I thought that what I like to do here is do something different. And so hence the title, I'll introduce it to two people and explain the topic briefly. So perhaps the key issue here is the theme, relocating nationalism between the regional and the transnational. These are big topics, which could be approached to us coming from political science for example. These would be key topics. I mean, what do we do with this term nationalism for years? We've been accustomed to looking at the world through the prism of the nation as a major category. But that's been challenged. It's always been challenged by regionalism. People who didn't see themselves within the nation state, who believed they had an autonomous or a desire for independence, an independent searching or a separatist view, that couldn't fit within the larger framework of the nation. But even more so, scholarships began looking at frameworks of transnationalism, where nations meet each other, where people move in and out about movement. So where do we locate the nation within this context? And quite often, if we look at the debates, the debates would see tension between these terms. Nationalism is always seen in context with regionalism. The region which is contesting the notion of saying that the nation is in a French phrase, one kind of divisible. But it's not so. It's multifaceted, porous maybe in other ways. In the same way transnationalism has challenged our notion of whether the nation is a self-contained unit or whether it should be much more porous. And of course Ireland is a great place to look at these debates. Ireland now would be even more so if we look at Ireland. Just thinking how we locate the dial itself. Those who took my courses know that I often start on a slide like this because it's about thinking where Ireland fits within its relationship with the United Kingdom, the British Isles, Europe, the Atlantic Ocean, the world. Where do we locate Ireland in these cases? How much of it is nationalism and how much is it affected by transnationalism? And then of course Ireland itself constantly engaging with issues of localism and regionalism and has to by definition because of Northern Ireland or traditionally because of Alster. There's many other reasons why it should engage with regionalism but it's always been a political issue. So I'm flagging this because it's a major concern and one might even say now that the current politics is even more pertinent to concern. But what I would like to try to do today is looking at this topic from a different angle. Quite an expected angle. Perhaps the last place we think of looking to shed light on this issue. And I'm turning to for that reason to lives and works of amateur historians and the stress here is on the amateur on purpose. We have a problem with amateur historians in the academy. We don't quite know what to do with them. We have this notion that history in the academy is about professionals here. It's being professionalised. That's what historiography is all about. And anything which is amateur seems to be really antiquarianism. That's how things used to be done in the past. It's not true for every discipline. I know that there are at least two people here from Harvard in Celtic studies. There's a different approach towards antiquarian which I think is much more appreciative. But I can say within Irish history. And this is something I'm writing in context to this in a different case. I was asked to review Irish historiography. For many people Irish historiography, modern Irish historiography begins with the professionalisation of the discipline in the 1930s. Anything before that is amateur is of little value, supposedly. And this comes with a lot of baggage. The notion of antiquarianism comes with baggage. Just think of images, just to catch our eye. I like particularly this image of Shoddaw. The monkey antiquarian. The antiquarian is something to be ridiculed. This obsession with looking at old people, old texts and looking at material artefacts. What do you do with it? It's fascinating at the same time, ridiculous. Or of course, so Walter Scott's famous novel, the antiquary in which the antiquarian is ridiculed. And at the same time, ridiculed with a certain amount of sympathy. Because of course Walter Scott was himself an antiquarian. He had an appreciation for what he was engaging with. But at the same time, realising that these people seemed to be a relic of the past as they were studying relics of the past. Now, in all my work I've always found that antiquarianism are a remarkable place to begin looking at. A place which really requires our full attention and appreciation. And so what I'd like to do today is introduce you to two, many of you might already know them. I'm not pretending to introduce you for the first time. But to talk about two people who wouldn't be the first names mentioned, will be choose the important figures to deal with these larger political issues of Irish history. The history at large. The two figures are Richard Robert Madden and Francis Joseph Ducan. It's a challenge for me, mainly because the way I was schooled in history, I have to learn and to come to terms with writing biographical work. For me I've always treated biographical work as an auxiliary discipline. I turned to works of biography to take out the details I need to put them in a larger social context. Of course there are fabulous traditions of writing biographies. But what I'm looking at here is not quite writing a biography. If it doesn't even approach or crunch on that term, it would be to write two biographies in Italian. The notion of comparative biography is intriguing in its own right. It's not that these things haven't been done, but quite often they've been done on a synchronic level. People at the same time. Let's compare Hitler and Stalin and see how they work in tandem. This is a diacronic approach. I'm looking at two people who have a moment of overlap. But largely Madden is a man of the first half of the 19th century. That's when he flourished. And bigger is a man of the second half of the 19th century, the turn of the century. So there's something almost historical what I'm doing here. I'm looking at two people from slightly different points who meet at a certain point. And I think there's lessons to be learned comparing them. I don't get to the comparing at the very end, because it'll take me a while just to talk about these two remarkable individuals. And that's worth the talking itself. Just dwelling on these two incredible individuals, which is quite a tour through the 19th century. So let's start one by one. I would have liked to do the two in tandem. I didn't quite figure out how to do it. First I thought I'd put two screens here. I'd see the two at the same time. It didn't work for me. Let's start with Madden. Let's start with first. Richard Robert Madden. This is probably how he would like to be remembered as a portrait from the National Gallery as a writer. We'll see. He was very prolific, remarkably prolific in a century, which everybody seemed to be prolific in the 19th century. And this is how he is as a younger man. He was the youngest child of a Catholic family. His father, Edward Madden, was a silk merchant, very prosperous silk merchant in Dublin. And he was the 21st child of two marriages. He was the 11th and the 2nd marriage. And he wanted to go into medicine. He trained as an apothecary. And he went over through the mother's connections to France, to Bordeaux, into Paris, and then ended up in Italy. He trained as an apothecary, moved on to social medicine. But developed a passion for traveling, which is quite interesting here. You can see this picture, which was drawn by Count Dole saying. Alfred Count Dole says it's interesting for the story as well, but I won't dwell on him. And Naples in 1828. So this is the young madden. And then there's travels of Naples in Italy. First of all, we are writing journals, which is interesting. We might touch on that a little later. The Morning Chronicles, a menu which he was the largest writer of the articles from the Morning Chronicle. But the interesting point here is that he met some remarkable individuals. And most importantly, he met a figure of James Rose quite well, so I have to tread on this carefully here. The most important, she was often called in the time, Marguerite Gardner, the Countess of Blessings. Now you can see that picture there, which is quite scandalous in its day, when it was displayed at the Royal Academy. She was quite a scandalous person in herself. In her marriages, in her affairs and non-affairs and associations of people, including with Commodore Seig. But in particular, for the fact that she was an independent woman, who travelled from places, met all the greats in the Romantic era, and conducted a remarkable, hosted a remarkable literary salon in London. You'll think of the salons of Paris. But at this remarkable literary salon, and cultivated, young writers together with all the greats. Many associated with the wake of politics. Anybody was, anybody wanted to be there. And more than if she became the patron of Madden. Madden was also commissioned, accordingly, to write a biography, which is a huge thing, but all his papers of all his life, as he writes here in volume one, these things all big events, three volume biographies, as he writes there, he had this uninterrupted friendship with the late Countess of Blessings, and she appeared here of 27 years, and the advantage of possessing the entire confidence of that lady. And that's why he's qualified to write the biography. He's critical of her writing now, she was a novelist, and he's critical of her writing at points, but he's also careful to show his great respect. That says something about Madden to the sea later, and he's been criticised about this, that when he wrote about topics he always treated with a certain reference. And that's an interesting point. So we're starting with this point of him, within the circle of the Countess of Blessings, but also meeting him in the Mediterranean. It's where they met him in the Mediterranean. And he continues on to travel. So his first part of his life engages in travel. He travels in, but today being the Middle East of today, or the Near East, he travels in. From Italy he goes on. He's in Greece during the war of independence. He's part of an empire, of course. He's a panhellenic like many others, a philoh Hellenist. From there he travels through Turkey. He travels through Syria, Palestine, down to Egypt, down into Africa. It has remarkable adventures. I'll tell you what he writes two volumes about it. I think it's quite remarkable. It has been my fate to be taken for a spy in Syria, to have endangered my life in Canada for refusing to administer poison, to have been shot in Canada twice, and once in the night I met Turkish soldiers, to have been accused of changing the fragments of a broken statue to gold and thieves. It was all these adventures. To have been taken by Greek pirates for wearing a long beard when taking a very Turkish property. He has this life of adventure. You can see here his orientalist garb as he's dressed, as he explains in place. This is yesterday's disguise in place, otherwise he's already been kidnapped by pirates. He has all these adventures, and he ends up writing this travel book, which is quite well received. People read it in great interest. It's this orientalist interest. In fact, enough marks for everyone. Many travels did at the time. This is thanks to modern debt, and graffiti of travels. So you can actually follow Madden all around his travels in Egypt. As you've got to the upper mouth and the area of the Qusall to the Dam of Aswan, you can see the name Madden is scribbled and scribed on all these various temples. As was quite common at the time of Madden in 1826, it's travelling to all these remarkable temples and scribing, alongside many other greats. Going back at least as far back as the Napoleonic soldiers, even further than that. And, not only does he write a two-volume book about his travels, he also writes a novel, The Musulman, the Musi, exoticised, romanticised, and yet seen by many, both of them are read together, when they are very well reviewed by various journals and sources of information. Somebody has been to these areas. To European audiences, which is quite remarkable. His travels, he needs remarkable people on the way. While travelling in Italy and going over towards Palestine, he meets Moses Montefiore to come later serve Moses Montefiore, the great patron of Jewish emancipation in England. And with Moses Montefiore there is a regular relationship which continues for years later. He is invited by Montefiore to join him on an expedition which he is actually commissioned by the wing government to represent the government on this expedition, to investigate pogroms, which are happening in Damascus. There was a bloodline when Damascus in 1840 and he is sent to investigate. It is a madness part of this investigation. Let's also tell you a little about the kind of cause of these sports that he espouses. We will see how this develops. They end up meeting Mohamed Ali in Egypt. They go to Egypt to meet the great leader of the area who is back and gets the Ottoman Empire against the Turks at the time and they are invited to the court. It is quite remarkable because Montefiore is kind of Mohamed Ali has a little interest in the question of the Jews. He is actually interested to hear Madden's questions about slaves. Madden is very sensitive about the slaves that he sees in the Near East and he ends up writing a book specifically about Egypt and Mohamed Ali and he participated in the condition of his slaves and subjects. This is a major topic as we will see that is coming out here and another book that comes out of that is his thoughts and these are all coming out in multiple volumes and numerous editions, at least two editions for each one of these books. So these are quite well read. The Turkish Empire and its relations with Christianity and civilization. It's another of his books. I'm flagging the question of slavery because that's a cause which Madden discusses. He's not the only person at the time something which bothers him. The question of slavery just as slavery is an issue within the British Empire at the time. So his next book will be an 1833. Thanks to the connection with Leicemtans and his connections with the weak government he's always seen whenever the weak government is in power when he gets his appointments he's sent over to the West Indies to Jamaica of today as a special majesty which is quite remarkable and he's there specifically to help foresee the release of slaves the emancipation of slaves in the West Indies. A remarkably difficult chore he has connections with the West Indies his wife Harriet whose company is throughout his life his wife, the father had property in Jamaica maddened through his mother turns out that they are people who have property in Jamaica as well including if I look at it he has cousins who are a lot of those there some of them are being enslaved and he's bothered about these issues and he's there to take on this whole issue of emancipating slaves and gets into terrible trouble with the slave owners some of them are Irish serious issues within 12 months has to resign because he's demanded the release of slaves and this becomes an issue which he's not willing to give up and the next episode this will happen is in his next post his next posting is to Cuba he sent the island of Cuba to Havana again has the role of superintendent in regards to the release of slaves Cuba is a Spanish colony as we know but it's under British administration effectively in his years so he sent over and he's also a judge on this mixed court that's his role and what is there he writes or he'll write later a report on the island of Cuba and he's investigating and looking at what he sees numbering how the plantations are going how they depend on slaves or other economic options are there and also there's something else which is going on he befriends a released slave a man by the name of Manzara and he helps Manzara wait his autobiography he translates into Spanish and his poetry Manzara has poems as he publishes this incredible text of a slave published in English with the life of the slave of the former slave and this is something that Manzara sees as a cause which is an important thing to publish this is giving a bit more about his life more than that when he's in Cuba Cuba as we know is always the sphere which America is interested in when he's in Cuba he published a book here in Boston where he takes to task a safe trade in Cuba and how this is done through very shady circumstances and this lands in a remarkable situation he gives an invitation to be a witness at the Amespenn trial for those who know the story of the famous Amespenn above the slave rebellion which lands in America and as a trial should they return the slaves shouldn't they return the slaves I'm wondering about the undergrad how many are familiar with it because it wouldn't be known well in the past but that was a witness at the Amespenn trial all these historical moments travelling the world getting to all these places more than that he's an authority in the situation of slavery in Cuba so much so that he writes about it an address of slavery in Cuba which he presents at the famous 1840 conference the first convention on slavery in London the anti-slavery society convention so I reckon you can spot Madem in the crowd there actually you can because there's a key in the national portrait gallery so with a key you can spot it out Madem is over there so that's Madem sitting in the crowd presenting his address to this great moment of this anti-slavery convention the picture is interesting for other reasons in this forum I might just mention because you might know who this gentleman is over here any takers? of course that's Daniel O'Connor who of course is being there and Madem in many ways is an O'Connor he's inspired by this moment of Catholic liberalism which has great interests just like O'Connor's interests which are international he's in many ways a key figure of Irish nationalism in the first half of the 19th century but he's also internationalist so the story of Madem the story of Daniel O'Connor is well known so I'm taking a slightly different path and next post will be then to Africa which is remarkable it'll be sent to the west coast of Africa in the area of Gambia today again dealing with areas which supposedly the slaves will release but what he really exposes are is what's called the pawn system the P-A-W-N pawn system in which the slaves are effectively enslaved again by various interest parties and when the exposency runs against big interests these are people who are well connected to the government these are very powerful merchants sort of that by MPs and they denounce this whole thing as slammer so Madem is blamed for spilling the beans on this issue he's the whistleblower in today's church and whistleblows of course have to be investigated so that's how he maps his career is more or less run out of his position there again but again time and time again going where he believes he has to be this leads him in a kind of slump but he remembers one thing he knows how to do is to write he goes to the portrait of all places and then he writes a history of portrait though unpublished he writes stories for the morning chronic on the whole time I say unpublished because you're going to see a lot of published works here and this is the portrait of what he wrote one of the things I'm tracing in the Madden Trails is to realise how much he wrote and wasn't published and how much has been lost so he's published, he wrote more than what he published he's already published more than most of us make it a whole room together can do it in our lifetime which is remarkable his role after that is Colonial Secretary in Western Australia and this is interesting he goes to Western Australia and immediately sparks a relationship his interest in our originals and the concerns of our origins always looking for the downtrodden and oppressed and also various other sectors who are in dire circumstances but at the same time he ran into trouble with people of power many of them Irish as well also in Australia he runs into trouble and is in conflict with people but he also suffers a personal tragedy his son drowns working as an engineer on the channel and so he returns to Ireland and decides to stop his travels and he returns to Ireland I should say in between all of this he goes in 1847 to Western Australia but before he does that he stops in Ireland in 1847 and he comments on the famine he writes a poem about the famine a farewell in Ireland in the famine year and imagine as a poet not the most well-known poet maybe in terms of literary skill but the best poet but he publishes all the time which is a remark on its own self as a sort of literary source which has been little written about and I thought that interesting that he writes a poem and then when he returns to Ireland his connections in the government get a post of the secretary of the lower front he sits in Dublin but he's engaged still with famine relief and he compiles a report on the role of the poor law system in the famine years the poor law system has a lot to be accountable for the famine years and he writes about that so that's an interesting source which hasn't been really worked with that much in famine studies so all of this work is coming in he sees himself always as a writer as a manager as a writer as a doctor as a doctor for most of these years until he stops with his travels but he had a clinic for a long time in London I'll comment briefly on some of his books just briefly this is a topic in itself two books here on issues which might relate let's say to the catholic church he writes a biography of Savannah Roller a famous Franciscan I can see over the question Ie, mae'n gweinwyr, mae'n ddocllikio, mae'n ddant scholars swipech sy'n ofyn ym mwy o'r ar ôl o'r teimlo field arno'r gwladdau. Heron yn cael ei wneud, beth yw'r hyn i yn gofio gweld y cyfoedd yng Nghadir. Mae'r gwcorth o gydych chi'n gyffredin ni, mae'n gweinwyr, mae'n gofio'r cyffredin i'n gweld eich gweinwyr, mae'n gweinwyr, mae'n gweinwyr o'i rhaid i'r ymயng. I, E, R, N, E, an o'w'r mey ffordd o Ireland. Her is madden. So, he's writing poetry of United Irish women, but it's his poetry about it. This is quite an interesting moment. It's a moment that he's written so much about it. He's spoken with them. He's met with the last living people. He's interviewed the boys like he becomes obsessed with it. He begins to imagine that he's one of them. So much so. He's published in this poetry in the nation. I hadn't got a great reception. He puts in this collection. So much so that he writes inside the book. I tucked inside a little kind of passage in the middle of the book where he gives a biography of this poem about his alter ego. Now, this is interesting because Madden was obsessed with 1798 because he was born in 1798. Not only was he born in 1798, the story that he tells was that his house was raided by major service. Major service is in charge of their government counterintelligence. So his house, Madden, rests on what he would do with the United Irish women. His house is raided. It's not quite clear why. His father was not political, but let's go with the story. The house is raided, and Madden's mother is upstairs in confinement and she gives birth. So he's born out of fear, like Hobbes. He's born out of fear, and with that he's obsessed with 1798. Let's me explain to myself his obsession with 1798. But Madden has imagined the alter ego. He's already a young man in 1798, and the house is raided by major service. And this young man is disgusted by the way the father is mistreated. He becomes a rebel, and he goes out of rebels. And then he rebels during the time of Robin Emmett. And after Robin Emmett, he realises that the best way of dealing with what happened is dedicating your life to preserving its memory. This is quite interesting because Madden was against violence. He's really much in the unconscious school. He opposed the young Irelanders who loaded his work. They all read his work about the United Irish women. But he opposed their violence. He opposed the Finians. And so his alter ego takes part to the United Irish women, a rebel cause, but realises that violence is not the answer. And dedicates his life to cleaning their graves. He survives the famine and has kind of forgotten somewhere in England. He more or less becomes the antiquary, the old mortuary, of all of mortality of water scot. That's the character of the imaginary. That's more or less what Madden became in real life. The famous stories of him looking for the remaining United Irish women. The famous stories of Anne Devlin, the housekeeper of Robin Emmett. So he finds a destitute on the streets of Dublin. He finds her a job. He finds her a house. When she dies in poverty, he erects a graver. He erects a graver in the graves of the United Irish men. He supports Tars Diggs in locating the graver, the golden son of Wolf Torn. He finds all these graves, the bonds, the sheer brothers. And he finances the graver. This is him and his elder age, really, where he's kind of fading away, literally, with Tars Emmett who's looking for Robin Emmett. The nephew looking for the grave of Emmett, which nobody will find, when Madden is showing him possible locations and they're excavating and looking for them. So that's at the end of his life. And so it's fitting that at the end of his life, he passes away about that some 20 years later. Well, first of all, the funeral. As you say, from Buddhist town, then, it's to Donnie Box Cemetery, and all the shops are closed. There's a huge respect for him. And it's fitting that 20 years later, in 1898, pilgrimageers are made, at least one major pilgrimage, of those who are respecting the United Nations, to the grave of Madden, a man who wrote so much about it. And this is Madden's grave itself, to the memory of the man who also built the grave of Annand Devlin. So that's also respected in this cemetery. Not easy to find that grave, for a long time it's locations to a garden. And the man who identified it is also interesting, might interest a couple of people in the room here. Rob, you're going to be interested in Leonardo Bryn. Leonardo Bryn, a civil servant in Dublin, wrote about Phoenians and many other topics, also an amateur story, and he's infatuated with Madden, and writes the only biography to date of Madden, and it's in Irish, on Maddenach. And as such, it's not read that often. So it's a great man, and no biography of him. Very similar, a rach o'r piece of the entries, and that's in itself. And in Diolch, we realise how fertile and so much material is there. I think that's the image that we've taken, when Ashley Gary of Ireland, is the one that's there. So that is briefly, a quick tour through the life of Richard Robin and Madden. And let's look at somebody else, very different. And we'll see how these two compare next to each other, maybe don't compare, it's just a very different story. Let's put one person aside and hear another Marco individual. Francis Joseph. It shows me that people often photographed at the elder years of their life, but they'd like to be remembered as they were younger, so I made an effort when I was last in the National Library, and I found a photograph on them in the National Library in Dublin, in preparation for this talk. And so here's pictures of him growing up as a youth, growing up later. Also the youngest child of his family, interesting enough, he was the seventh son. And this he sees a lot of symbolism in the notion he's the seventh son, but I'm not really the seventh son. His father was also a seventh son. And his grandfather was also a seventh son. So he sees this kind of a man who believed in folklore, so it's the seventh son, a seventh son, a seventh son of a will-to-do merchant family in Delphos. He's very proud of Scottish heritage. He's very proud of this heritage. Here he makes out his books. He has this imprint. He has this ex-lebrist imprint of a merchant family created himself, a coat of arms, coat of arms of very important families. We'll see towards the end here. A coat of arms of a merchant family had his everything in mind, and he might not be able to read quite the caption that's here with the caption. It was important that this ex-lebrist was printed by Marcus Ward, the Belfast printer, that it was illustrated by John Vinnico, the Belfast illustrator at the Queer and Droids. Everything had to be made in Belfast, had to be all still made. Very important. You didn't go and commission things elsewhere. And we'll see why that's significant. One quick point that should be made here. Quite often confused the name bigger, but of course there's another bigger, a great bigger in the period, and that is Joseph Gillis bigger. They're related. They're cousins. I think they're cousins twice removed. They're cousins. The name alternates during these years. E and A could be spelled both ways. Bigger changes his name because he moves from Protestantism to Catholicism, and Joseph Gillis bigger. That's a famous, let's say you could be a tenant upon that famous nationalist parliamentarian and a long rule party. So they're not the same people though. They had a good relationship. Bigger quite admired him. Bigger is a quite, sometimes described as a presbytyr. That's a mistake. He's a high church agnican. Sometimes described as, this is in French, described in a buckle way, that so many admirers described as, an agnican with Franciscan in it. So he's a kind of Catholic man. Which is quite interesting though. You should get your head around it. You'll see who the man is and you'll realise how this goes and quite how he feels. You'll enjoy that portion. Bigger grows up in this Protestant merchant kind of background family in Belfast. He's trained as a solicitor, as a lawyer, at Queen's University Belfast, and afterwards in Dublin. This is the role of Firmity Founds, which is still continuing in the later form today, bigger in Stran, and teams up with George W. Stran. And the place itself, for those of you who are well-found, this is right in the heart of what would have been then, this is again from his photo album, the heart of loyalist unionist Belfast. But Bigger is interesting because he maintains ties with all the signs. More so. It's quite interesting. The other signs, similar to whatever he does, one of their offices is in the office of even the former dwelling, John Ray, those of those John Ray, a very exotic figure in 19th century Irish politics, a man who described himself as an orange phoenix. So Bigger sees himself quite in tune in this kind of metaphor of an orange phoenix because Bigger has close connections with unionists and the orange men, many of his clients and such. He himself described himself as a nationalist person. Connections with nationalists, with Catholics. And he wonders quite clearly between the various circles of Presbyterians, Church of Ireland, various types of Protestants and Catholics. And he wonders freely between the men. And it's not an easy thing to do in Belfast of the late 19th century when sectarian politics are extremely polarised. His home is an interesting place. Aren't we this house? Don't go looking for it. I look for it. I don't know where it is. It's quite sad when you go to the places where I came out of it. But this house on the slopes of Cave Hill and he left the name Ardri. The name has changed in his youth to Ardri because Ardri is the king in Irish. But it's also his own attribute to his mother, Mary Jane Ardri. And he was devoted to his mother as the youngest son. He grew up with the mother. The mother who has been brought to the house, the mother who buys in house has always respected the mother. Garden, you could see the garden everywhere. He was well-known this time for what he cultured as a gardener, as a beekeeper. All the stories are very fresh honey whenever you visited them and produce whenever you came. You'll see who came to visit. You'll realise how people go back to see the correspondence of all this fresh fruit and produce. That's the biggest thing where he most enjoyed himself in Ardri. And this is the inside of Ardri, the library. I think if I'm not mistaken that the young picture of Bridget, his housekeeper, is very important to address in some kind of uniform and dressing up as a key thing in Ardri. What we need to realise about Ardri is he used to call this place the fireside school. That's his rejoinder, his repost to Yates's Celtic Twilight. This was the place of a remarkable renaissance, a revival to Northern Spain. They should have been investigated more and more in the last decade. But it was sent to him. Anybody who was anybody met a bigger Suarez in his parties in this kind of culturally remarkable people. We could just go through the list. It's unbelievable what he wrote. The Northerners, the Northern Nations of the time, Alice Milligan, Nick Harbury, Barbara Hobson and Dennis McCullough and Joseph Connolly and Catelyn Byrran. Joseph and John Campbell. All these writers were from the main, but they were the playwright, telling model, friend Herbert Hughes, James McManus, Cary Healy, politician, France, McPeaco, commentator, manager, larger case, but the old frequent is also on a regular basis. People would often be there. Less regularly, would often be there. George Birmingham, the novelist, Robert T. Pender, the Catholic novelist, for his reign also writer, Paul Henry, painter, John Vinicom, all these people are there, illustrator. And coming up from Dublin, also on a regular basis, Patrick Pierce, Lord Connor, WB Yates, Patrick Vodricon, Alistop the Green, Shane Leslie, William Oaf, and James Connolly, Ernest Leith, Desmond and Mabel, Vincent Gerald, Connolyn Loughlin, Celticist Colonel Byrran. I mean, it's a road call of who's who of National Ireland at the time, not only of National Ireland. It's a remarkable place to see this guy there. It's a remarkable place to see this guy there. It's a remarkable place to see this guy there. It's a very fast location that they go up to. And that's not the only place where he hosts these meetings. Another place which he was very fond of was a Norman Castle that he wrote. In County Downey in Cullan. Jordan's Castle, which he named Shane's. Castle Shane. This is shows where Bigger used to like his imagination when I lived in. He was an antiquarian and saw himself as very scholarly but also infused himself always with imagination. He admired among many other historical characters he admired Shane O'Neill, the Great O'Neill or Shane the Proud. And I said to see himself as kind of a demonic Shane O'Neill, he named us. He believed this was the castle somehow connected which probably wasn't connected to Shane O'Neill. But he turned this onto being considered to their heritage centre. Putting any kind of old artifact that he counted in this place. All these gatherings that met in these kind of historical settings which is quite remarkable because you see the grievance at the end of his days and they had no idea what to do. They just dispersed the old collection and shelled it away. This is remarkable saying it's not authentic and it's not dated and you can't see it in different places. That's exactly the point. This is heritage centres in their very beginning. It's a perfect Victorian heritage centre, a pioneering one just to see that collection itself. So the gatherings would be there and this was a very colourful event which often quite which often locked. You want to see how they're locked on a caricature. I haven't seen these caricatures. This is bigger. It's being gailer-sized here into un-bigger. It's also a nice small bigger since they're translating into a bigger so let's do more. He's doing more but it's also bigger. It's also clear that he liked dressing up. He liked dressing up of what he saw as this Celtic design. He attended pan Celtic conferences. He liked what he saw. This is the oyster design but it wasn't only him dressing up. People who came they're dressed up. You can imagine Patrick Pierce had a great income on this. They thought exactly what he was doing boys dressing up in various costumes reviving focal traditions of mumming. I didn't think mumming going on in Belfast for a good world but there was mumming outside in our dreary Christmas. There were pipers. Get the pipers in a minute and on glass. Always dressed up on a serious Celtic card. Marches of pipers in different places walking through. And there's also serious inspectiveness. He also took a piping seriously. Francis Joseph Pink is trained as a tripsaw pipeline. The first pipeline over a century in Belfast. For those who don't realise the significance of that then maybe you're not at the right age because the McPeak's were veering. It's a dynasty that McPeak the son the grandson the McPeak family. These were people that McPeak the grandson is the one who meets with John Lennon and Bob Dylan. These were people that were invited for the folk provider. This is the beginning of the folk provider. So this all begins here this kind of return to music at which big response to traditional ways into music. Another ring would be the fresh of the Glen special Lennon in the Glen's of Antwerth. And this is another place of dressing up and piping and folk craft and traditions which he cultivated and encouraged of storyteller and singing. So this is all part of a revival in this northern axis which brings quite a few protestants on board as well which brings us an aspect of local traditions to talk about. So what does this mean? Bigger who adopted the Douglas High's programme and he anglicised in Ireland. But so it's also in a local variance. Here's another curriculum. This is bigger home industry in the Goros. He's walking around wearing self-designed clothes and his pipes and his war pipes. And yet everything is labelled as made in Austria and made in a certain place. And then serious in a way which is not just a joke he took this very seriously. He's once a promoting industry. We often see people are doing this kind of a virus, a kind of romanticism who harp on the past. So for example one of his reform plans he took something which touches Victorian sensibilities. Somebody who wrote a glowing article by Father Matthew he decided he wants to look at issues of tempers not quite tempers but looked at the state of pubs in Austria and suggested the whole movement was having nicer pubs. This is the Ulster Public House Trust in which he said there are going to be model inns in Austria which you can stop by. One of them still exists by the way. The Crown of Charn. Next time you are in the area you tell that I'll be kind of very involved in it. You can see what remains. It's not quite in its full splendour. It still has pictures on the wall showing how it used to be. So this is part of reform that he believes has to come to Ireland and to Ulster in particular. What's this for you, Frank? This is cottages. It gives plans of cottages of how Irish labourers deserve better dwellings in a modernist time. It's a reform agenda designed in two rooms and three rooms and four rooms give proper cottages to their labourers. So this is engagement with better dwelling. And there's an antiquarian who's a member of a whole host of societies. That's what antiquarians did. Madden, of course, is a member of the Royal Irish Academy. He always begins there. If you look at Madden, of course, he's a member of the Royal Society of Antiquaries of Ireland. He rises up to the top. He becomes vice president. He's a member of the Belfast Naturalist Field Club which is an extremely active club at the time engaging with issues of natural history, which we called at the time trips through nature, zoology, botany, and he was considered a major authority but also history and archaeology. He always put archaeology on the map. The Belfast Natural History and Philosophical Society, the Belfast Library and Society for Productive Models. That's the Linenhall. The Linenhall exists to wait before that. But he's largely one of the key people responsible for the collection of Irish studies, Irish and Ulster studies. So the fact that scholars today all over the world go to look at Irish studies in Linenhall, it starts with books that bigger board as a student when he was in Dublin studying law and a whole collection that she brought and promoted there. Irish language is important for me. He took Padre Cachet's classes in Belfast and developed at the Belfast Gaelic League and he's appointed to the executive board of the National Gaelic League. The Ulster that she feared more or less, more or less, was happening in Dublin, more or less. An interesting moment which rises for a moment, it's interesting collaborations. He's the patron of it. He publishes their paper. Other, which is a remarkable paper at its time, the Folk Song Society in London is a founding member of that. The short lived, come in a channel that's the folklore of societies behind all these moves of these revivalist norms. If we want to talk and refer briefly because I realize my time is running out, they go, it's mad, on, on, on, on. So a few quick snippets because we try to keep things within a framework. Time is running. He wrote some books. He's not well known for his books. Perhaps I mean he wrote about traditions of Darwin. He was well known for this lecture on the hills of Holy Island. It's a small pamphlet which he traveled and lectured and write it all around. I like to talk about traditions of Ireland. Interesting. He gave it to geography and traditions which are interesting for yourself now. I went to geography. The Ulter Landmore of 1770 would be his most famous book and it's not a great book historically. I can say that myself. Unlike Madame, he was the great writer of big books and that's not why he invested his energy. He did invest his energy in writing essays. One of the first things I did when I came here to be a marker of burns and highways was that Andrew was a great resource he would help some people all the time. I asked him if they could scan for me. It could be a copy of the Hayes catalogue of periodologians. It's a standard resource to go and see which periodologians are in. I go through this. I find 11 pages of pieces of articles of bigger published periodologians. Now I can tell you this more than that because I found pieces which are outside but I counted them. I counted them again 287 articles. So he published his essays everywhere. On a whole range of topics which relate to history and archaeology and Hockadog, horticulture and gardening and many historical subjects. His main venue was the Ulster Journal of Archaeology. This was the leading journal of antiquarianism in Ulster. Originally found in the mid-19th century by great mid-19th century antiquarians like Adam Caddon, which is one of Caddon. But he revised it in the late 19th century. He pulls together all the remarkable scholars and one of the still veteran scholars of the previous edition or the previous series and for a period of 17 years he runs this journal where all the greats contribute to it and Bigger not only edits it, he begins it first co-editing it with a local historian called Robert McGill Young famous at the Korean Newest Times as well. And he continues throughout the whole series. He also writes for each edition as well. So a whole series of articles coming out of that. If you want to realize his impact and why these articles so important, we don't have citation index is doing for the time and nowadays academia works differently. The way to use citation index as a Victorian study is would be simply to look at the client. And that's for a mock-up. A whole study can be done. He also from Madden, by the way, a study can be looked at how George Birmingham he writes the Northern Iron this novel, which is probably the best novel written about in 1790. A lot has been written about. One of my favourites, at least, of course it's dedicated to him. As I wrote down the classic work of folklore, of urban folklore on Belfast comes out in two series. Of course dedicated by Carl O'Bren, to Madden. The story of the harp, interesting. So it's all these selectional accusings, songs of other, a key text in putting Northern music on the map of Irish music is dedicated to Madden. Another way of looking for his correspondence, his main archive of the Belfast Central Library has 3,000 letters. There's many other scattered collections all around him, in archives all over. And he corresponded with everybody. And all the time people are writing in and acknowledging that he is giving them the material they need for their work. You can't understand that, but I agree with that when you first big it. The whole series of other people. So he's a key, he's a spider in a web in many ways. And that's from Malcolm. So how do I connect between these two people? Very briefly. A very interesting point is Bigger's inspiration from Madden. Bigger saw himself. He didn't go to travel around the world. He stayed locally the whole time. But he always saw himself inspired by Madden. If Madden wrote the shrines and sepulchers of the old world and new, bigger, a famous radical newspaper, The Sean Van Voff which was published in the North in the turn of the Belfast in the turn of the century in two very radical women at McCartney-Rallis-Villigan. He wrote the neglected shrines and sepulchers of Ireland that were stressed dead. So he was looking at an Irish letter as a series. And it's interesting enough how do we know he wrote it? Because he always wrote in the pseudonyms. It takes a while to kind of check the pseudonyms. It's written by Arn Ray. Is that what's similar? Hemba Peron. Sorry. Hemba Peron is a reverse English version. So his page tribute by Bigger brother by coding his name as well as Madden in the verse which is from Malcolm. Madden wrote the United Irish in their lives in Thailand is the biggest spent in most of his life. His great passion was writing the life of the Northern United Irish. His interest was always in those in Ulster. He travelled around in Ulster collecting stories from anybody he could meet. And he collected a photograph of any of them. He could find it. He was a great pioneer of photograph studies in many ways collected oral traditions, collecting any piece of material he could. And spent his life writing volume upon volume of the lives of the Northern United Irish for those who want to understand why I've read my book. There's a whole context to that. But only one is published. The rest has to live in manuscript form. And that's interesting. Preserved in a good state. If Madden went around preserving graves and saving them, that's exactly what Bigger did as well. So here he is tracing the focus on collector Herbert Hughes collecting, tracing graves to see the current pursuit. But that's what he does for the United Irishman as well. He goes around and restores their graves and sets up graves for them. Time and time again if people like Roddie McCorley from the famous song or William Steele Bixon, the radical minister or Mary Anne McCracken, the sister that you can join McCracken, or James Hope, a working man's hero. Place after place. He goes to places. So these cases Madden had let these people form. Madden had funded their ritual graves to watch it fall into decay. Bigger goes after him and restores these sites. And he believes in this project that he's doing where he sees himself as a nationalist but first of all so Ulster has a place where they're wider around. Ulster with its constants and its cathartics. He'll travel around around giving his talks. And he believes in this all the way. 1916 will be a big shock for him. Many of the people who visited him are implicated in 1916. Some dialogue was against him. This is terrible for him. It's a terrible blow. A man who was not violent was very gentle and couldn't deal with violence really. He could deal with violence in the past in a romantic way. And he'll believe in this all the way when he was a politician. A remarkable article. In 1922 he published an Irish independent from Belford until 1922. He published The Flags and Arms of Ireland. And he says Ireland has so many symbols all of them should be respected. Each one has its provincial also has its own but also must have its own. You have to bring them all together and find a flag for Ireland. And the key point is that it should be undivided. That's his point here. Undivided is the also what Ulster puts it. So he's putting undivided Ireland. So he still believes in undivided Ireland exactly as the partition is happening. The partition breaks. After partition he never goes down south again. His world blesses all the part around him. He's still active for a while. He's honoured by the academy in 1926. A few months later he passed away. He's given an honoree and praised heavily by the professor of history in Queens in the Wrenfrew North West. And it's a real moment because this is the moment where professional science can still praise the amateur. You can say we've learnt a lot from you from your resources. Ten years later we won't hear about that anymore and I just don't think we're turning its back to amateur historians. This will be myth and folklore and not the way professional history should be done. Archaeology will move away from antiquarians. All these disciplines will separate. Sociology will emerge. Other disciplines will emerge will all be together. So if I show you a matter that's good enough. Bigger of course wants to be buried in Malusk. Seize himself next to United Irish with his family roots not far from Jeremy Hope. But bigger is no longer remembered for a long time in the new Northern Ireland. In 1971 as the UVF problem as paramilitaries of some sort of blowing up various monuments and retort to what they see as IRA attacks on memory as well to memory being shoved in their face. Boldenstown was bombed around that time in other places and interesting thing happens of sea security in many places. Grave is bombed in Malusk territory the grave of Bigger. That's the grave over there. Destroyed seems as a case of vandalism perhaps because of the writing in Gaelic in Irish which is here perhaps because he seems as a problematic person during the troubles. As a man of war together Catholics and Protestants and protestants celebrating nationalism announced a man who demanded to be buried with a flag of Australia's heart. So how do you deal with somebody like that in what's happening? What's remarkable is this grave the grave in front is the grave of Jenny Hope which he erected. So the grave of the United Irish and the grave of Bigger is the one that's destroyed. Both people as James noted at least for Madden have blue plaques for them now. There's an older plaque in Bujastown for Madden that's the plaque out there in the pub that I showed you for Bigger but really they've never been given the attention they deserve no biography for them never. It's amazing. Different biographical essays came out in the last 10, 15 years till then nothing serious. Roger Dixon at the Ulster Museum was a very, very good work and a few other people commented very interesting things with no full scale biography. So both Madden and Bigger are coming inside and yet I will argue. Maybe you can do some questions and answers that have spoken too much about and two last questions two last points. One is that these amateur historians anti-queer which often brush aside I think there's an interesting lesson to be learned from various studies of Irish history looking back at what they wrote and how they lived their lives. In both cases both their biographies and at their works their lives and works so much for Irish studies which is supposed to be about breaking the disciplines and moving and asking the big questions and travelling around them that's what we're supposed to be doing but now we see that as interdisciplines before the disciplines were formed this is exactly the work that antiquarians did. It was a whole model to be re-explodable. And the second point which I should have been discussing the whole evening would have to leave it in our mind perhaps because I took too much time describing the lives but the second point of course is what we see here two very different approaches Madden was a nationalist who wrote this key nationalist text it's a key text in the library of Irish nationalism the lives of the United Irish and yet he's not a typical nationalist I'd say he's a transnational nationalist he travels around the world he meets different people he brings these ideas back to life and he's always engaged in the wider questions all the time he comes together he doesn't see a contradiction to that form of nationalism and this kind of internationalism and cosmopolitanism but Ireland achieves independence that's not the ethos of the state it might be where Ireland is already now but later on it took its time to get there and Ireland for a long time closed itself nationalism is often seen even today it's inwardly it's closed so this kind of option goes down when he praised Madden you can see Madden he praised it again and again by Fina Fford who come in the nail politicians all the time they mean this nationalism in the most narrow sense bigger than what happens here a strange person bigger is he nationalist regentist he's a nationalist fully and yet he ulsters the heart of things the first allegiance to the region he falls within a larger pattern and that's how expecting a region understanding its uniqueness is how to find a place within a larger patchwork that was also a model for Ireland which bigger believed him but of course with partition and with the development of a normal island that's not what happened it wasn't on the table maybe now we're on the table again maybe not but these kind of options which are there are quite remarkable and we find them in most unexpected places by following the lives of amateur historians so I just thought to share that I'll post them looking into this argument thank you very much this is the fourth division anywhere about the you had an Irish event that came to mind that famous article by Albert done over 50 years ago in which he sees the commemoration of past evolution as a sort of unit of thing in the present and bring both sides together it seems to me let's have a few questions if anyone has just a couple of questions that you can use to ask us something sorry for taxing us a lot on the numbers now you've made a kind of similar to a temper of the historians you've got to be able to focus in time at all on the course of this following the financial scenario of the debate since very little time sort of engaging in both the history and encouraging feedback from the literature when you see how it can be seen so I'm going to say the guard of Irishness but Richard, I'm singing you to go for my microphone sorry so the question is what about the nation of amateurs and professionals today the situation is very different today you gave a clear example of a very unconventional story where in many ways it's part of that tradition I think a lot of people have said about the visionist debate in Ireland and what I think has been done almost to death but I think an interesting point to mention here is that the professionalisation of Irishness Street came with a certain price is remarkably important but it didn't turn itself back to various traditions of local scholarship and it threw away a lot of great material to also look Irish essentially Irish in the way it was done so much so I wanted to push that forward I wanted to present a thesis but that's a little point to another there I think that is why perhaps Irish history punched below its weight often I think had it engaged in this past in the way that literature did for example poetry, theatre does and even Irish film does engage with traditions and a different kind of Irish historiographer would have developed now the local history has always been a huge thing on it and for years the source thing is localism a flourish has always been a flourish of local history societies and at times they emerge on the centre station most of the time not but you can follow the journals where local histories are huge made new picked on that more than any other university having local history studies and publishing this has worked you can do an MA in local history and publish it so that's a good connection but for many academic historians the local historians do the footwork and they look at the the few people that should take enough to realise the amount of expertise which is local and it's this dialogue that happens there the dialogue which is often seen as the dialogue of you using a different language on it it's often kind of a a bitblosia needs to be done the language of academic history and local history the two are very close because in the end history and Ireland is also a popular proceed and you can see this very clearly coming together in issues like commemoration like 1960 for the moment or the Irish Revolution there's all the local studies of meeting with the national studies and I'd like to see that happen in many other areas as well it was interesting in small countries during the war to brush up to the Soviet in fact it was important to the Soviet and it was the bringing together because of the agency in the local we moved to another small country in the institution somehow it came together and we moved to another great country but it was really great Thank you for the view I think you will butler is now more and more acknowledged for this kind of this is a unique person in collections and even now it's more on the radar and it's unique in that sense because most local historians will focus on the local and it most might move up to the region this transition this move from kind of the local to the transnational is a big call and it's very early for me to do it but now there's no excuse for that anymore right where the local is the transnational where the computer links us to any place so exactly these kind of discourses work much better in today's time it's remarkable to see the people in the past who took that step and did it and that's quite remarkable and yes I accept the fact that some people don't want to see building their locality and they have a lot of work to see there and also I'm always weary of the quick affinities right so a lot of people make the marriage study which could come off into kind of the shadow statements of the Catholic Irish or predisposed to see always the week and help the week we know that's not always the case man himself demonstrates it yes he saw himself as an Irish Catholic always seeking out the week and helping out the slaves with their rituals and yet he encountered another Irishman who were not with that approach at all we have to see all these complexities happening at the same time so it's not that there's an immediate affinity these parallels work on different levels and nationalism can be both inward looking localism can also be very close sharp but it can also be at the same time those are the interesting moments to tease out these frictions yes he worked a bit about Irish he made an effort to study Irish this is part of a conscious effort which is important he made an effort to use Irishman's writings and he made another effort to to engage with it and yet when he was dealing with medieval text it was also important for him to restore bits and pieces and yet his main passion that comes to the United Irishman was dealing with people who were directly with us to Scots and that's important that's why Fred's presence in Rome is particularly when Fred Francis is the expert in us to Scots he's my chance with us today working in the modern world's library so it's a great moment but in these moments and I follow the same path my role model book was followed by both in Madden and the biggest footsteps that's how in relation to the United Irishman so I could see the problem Madden didn't engage in Irish language material at all the bigger tried to but the material led him on a different path it was very little work in Irish about it when he came to earlier periods he worked with it and yet he didn't really he was the great scholar of the manuscript tradition so he won't find too much material there the earlier he dealt with he dealt with one more material culture so it would be called pioneering archaeology or by some people sham archaeology was heavily criticised afterwards for the damage that was done to these sites by unprofesionalised techniques when an academic immediately after he died an academic archaeologist came up and said this whole work is worthless the response in the countryside is remarkable for weeks of news paper that published that got a strong response from people that were doing worthless and learned so much from this person and that in itself says something so it's an ability to appreciate those interests in its own right two, one last question you applied that figure was very surprised that perhaps there's a monitor of a shattered body of the events of 1916 yet he clearly had met some of the leaders where that book or where that was in my own site it wasn't enough to make an entry to some of that fact it seems very good so there's a few things about that some of the correspondents suggested some of them knew that it was too gentle for these issues they had a purpose that they had to have this correspondence they saw this and then in one of the kind of correspondences where they talk about the fact that they wait for Bigot to go to his sister's office and then they start conspiring so Bigot in theory was all four an independent Ireland but when he did see violence on the streets and the scriptures that he thanked him and he couldn't deal with and he wasn't right temperament for that on the other hand he also was dabbling with very dangerous things he encouraged people and they were clearly by reenacting the past and they constantly reenacted the the castle shadow that reenacted the pikes where they walk around all this rhetoric had cut both ways his involvement in more or less staging and choreographing the 1898 centenary of the United Ashram and he's inspired all these issues he was dangerous issues this had a violent reaction to the unionists and he saw the problems on these issues so he was dabbling with problems what happens there he refused to cooperate with these people in 1916 he closed the door to some of them when they were looking for hiding he could say you better move on don't stay with me but he was particularly also worried about himself how he would be implicated Roger Caseman case shadowed him very very deeply Roger Caseman corresponded with him all the time so what does that mean was the trial proceeds they were very close these issues showed him so what are the implications for that and that is a moment of stepping back and partitions will break