 Gwelodau'r cyfrolygu a gweithgwch i fyny yw'r ysgrifennid o'r cyfferwyd, ychydig yn ddefnyddio'r fwy fwy yn cymryd ac yn ddifarwy'r gweithwyr neu'r cyfrolygu, nidol Dove, sydd wedi'i ar-igi'r Llywodraeth Cymru. Felly, ysgrifennid Ysgrifennid yn ymgyrch gydig yn ymgyrch, mae'n gwybod i'r cyfrolygu'r Llywodraeth Cymru. Mae'n gydig i'r cyfrolygu'r cyfrolygu o'r gweithwyr cysylltiadau, i'r cyflawni'r cyd-dystri, mae allan yn ddych chi i ddweud, eich cerddwyr i'w gweld i'r cymryd amdeithasol yma i'r ymwneud ym mhlaen i'r cymryd ymwneud, i'r cyflawni'r cyd-dystri i'r cyflawni'r cyd-dystri i'r cyflawni'r cyd-dystri i'r cyflawni'r cyd-dystri i'r cymryd ymwneud. Felly, rwy'n golygu i'n gyd yn ddim yn ni'n i chi'r Nigel Dove, Rydym ni'n gweld y dyfodol yw'r ydych chi'n gweithio a'r cyflawn i'w Jacob, a mae'r gysbeth yma yn ymgyrchol. Over to you Nigel. That's great, thank you Judith, a good afternoon, good evening, or good morning to wherever you're joining us from. I'm really pleased to be here and thank you for the CIM for the invitation to come and talk to you. I've got about 30 minutes and I've got a few slides and I'm going to run through them fairly quickly. And as you'll sort of see from the culture and the introduction, what I want to share with you today I am yna ei yw ohod, i chi ddim yn gwych, mae'r hunain ar honno i'w ll university equival ond y dyfodol, yn cyfrifiadau cyfrifiad gw factoryll ar West i'r hunain a'r hunain yn cyfodol i chi'n amser. Rwy'n fydd ychydig i chi wnaeth chi'n gwaith yng nghymru o'r credu. Mwneud i chi'n ei adwi fan y gwirionedd. yn y oesbysig sy'n rôl jacobs ar y moment. Rwy'n meddwl i'r bwysig, rwy'n meddwl i'r bwysig, rwy'n meddwl i'r rôl yng Ngôl Cymru sy'n gweithio'r cyffredinol yn y ffordd o bwysig o'r cyffredinol cyffredinol. Rwy'n meddwl i'n meddwl i'r cyffredinol, yn y rôl rwy'n meddwl i'n meddwl i'r meddwl i'r cyffredinol yn y bwysig o bwysig yng Ngôl, mae gyllid yn cyd-rwyng iawn. Rydym have 70,000OU peif pickwyr yng Ngôl. Rydym yn cael 13% fyd y rôl jacobs a'r lleiwyr yng Ngôl. Felly, mae'r ffordd yr oedd y cwestiynau yn gwerth o'r cyffredinol yn y rhaid, yn gwybr y chymru yng Ngôl Cymru, ac mae'r ffordd yr argyllideb llinwyr yn cael Catalunya a Llanurewydd and brand and then of course the central bulls are there about insights and championing the customer strategy. I really want to challenge you today to think about how you perceive your role in your organisation. I hope that will be useful for you. I maybe want to get you to think about your role in a slightly different way. You may already be in this space in which case it may just reconfirm your thoughts on this subject. But I want to get you to think about how organisations are viewed by the different stakeholders and how those need to come together for us to deliver a consistent brand and experience and really blur the boundaries of what we think we are as marketing and communications professionals. And then finally what the senior managers look for in their communications team. So we all start each meeting that we have within Jacob, the news externally within Jacob's with a culture of caring moment and I'll touch on this later on in my presentation. And this is one I wanted to share with you because I think it's relevant for you and your role in marketing communications. And this is called the five levels of listening and why does this sort of matter and what is it saying? It's essentially saying that human beings tend to listen to respond. So if you or I are in a conversation and you're talking, I'll be listening and I'll be listening within the tent to respond. But of course there are different reasons for listening and this chart, this little diagram shows the five ways that you can actually listen. So it's not just listening to respond, but listening for emotion and listening for meaning. And this was developed by a hostage negotiator in the FBI. And when they're negotiating with in stressful scenarios, they have five people listening and they're listening for each of these five different different aspects. And they also really like the Atticus Finch quote to kill a mockingbird. So really we are interested in listening and great communicators listen, whether that's to customers or to other audiences. So that's my culture of caring moment and you found that useful. OK, let's press on a little bit about Jacobs. You probably won't have heard of Jacobs. We are a global company and we are essentially involved in solving some of the world's most critical problems in the areas of built environment, infrastructure, energy, defence, cyber and intelligence. And we're 55,000 people were in 40 countries. Big company, 13 billion pounds revenue, roughly dollars revenue. What do we do? Here's a summary of our capabilities. So we are really very much in the space of providing project management, design and engineering services to our clients. So we're a business to business organisation, but you can see the sort of breadth of some of the things that we get involved with on the screen. You might not have heard of Jacobs, the company, but you will have heard of our projects. So here's just some examples on the screen. We were program managers for the London 2012 Olympics. We're doing the same job for Dubai Expo, an amazing project worth going to have a look at if you've not seen it on the bottom left. The top right image is Hinkley Point C, which is your biggest construction project. And then the other pictures show the House of Commons and we're leading the restoration of House of Commons. In the US, we are NASA's biggest service provider, so we run a lot of the launch centres when you see things going up. We have people in those control centres and another project in the Middle East we're involved with is the Qatar World Cup and bringing those facilities to bear. So some really high profile projects. And Jacobs has been on a change curve and this sort of, just for context really, this chart summarises it quite well. And this essentially started when Jacobs appointed a new chief executive in 2015, a really interesting guy called Steve Dimetrio. And at that time Jacobs was alongside most other big engineering companies heavily dependent on the oil and gas market, which is cyclical. So following a portfolio review, Jacobs sold its oil and gas business and acquired CH2M Hill, another big business which is heavily into programme management and infrastructure. And you sort of see the share price tracking up there as well. And then since then, it's pretty much transformed its portfolio. So it bought a company in the US called QW, which is a major cyber company in 2019. And I joined Jacobs on 9th of March 2020 as part of the wood nuclear acquisition. And then our final, one of our most recent investments in the UK has been to buy a 65% stake in PA consulting. So really sort of dramatic transformation in terms of the company and the portfolio that we operate in. And what's the other interesting thing about that chart was a launch of the new brand. So you can see that the J mark in 2019 and challenging today reinventing tomorrow. So that was a relaunch of the Jacobs brand to align with the sort of new portfolio. And what's underlined all of this has been a transformation of Jacobs culture. And that's what I want to sort of share with you today. Now, my introduction to organisational culture was at university. And I have to say I didn't quite understand it. And there's a classic sort of book that's used to describe organisational culture by a guy called Charles Handy. And so I always remember studying this at university and thinking I didn't really quite understand what this is all about. And then when I went out into the world of work and I got my first sort of roles, I was still sort of struggling to understand really what does it actually mean? And what I've come to understand is that essentially there's a much more practical way to think about organisational culture. And that summarised in the green box. And I've only I guess I've only come to think about it in such a literal way since I've worked for Jacobs in the past two years, because it's quite often companies, all the companies I've worked for have been good companies and they've all had very solid values and all been good places to work. But I wouldn't say they've been particularly distinctive. So could I sum those organisations up in three words? Not easily. Could I easily describe what we stand for? Could I touch and feel the culture? Probably not. And that's really, really been quite interesting to me. The whole experience of how that works and the benefits of that. And I really like this chart that I'm showing now, which talks about the relationship between brand and culture. So as marketing people, we always we're at the top of that iceberg in terms of typically engaged with how we promote and develop our experience and offerings. But the the bit below the waterline to me is the bit that as I become more experienced, I've understood is really fundamental to how stable that brand offering is because it's the piece that anchors everything together. So what's below the waterline and what stops that experience and offering from tipping over? It's the culture of the organisation and by culture we mean the combination of what we're here to do. The values that the business exhibits and the behaviours that people show day in, day out and the best definition of values I've heard of is what we do when people aren't looking and things aren't visible. So it's just our natural reaction to situations that we come across at work that really does determine our values. So the building block for Jacob's culture is on the slide here. So you can see our values on the left hand side. We do things right, we challenge the accepted, we aim high and we live inclusion. There's a good values that they may be very similar to your values. I'm not sure the unique values. I think what's unique is how we try and bring them to life within Jacob's. And the two key diagrams on this slide are first of all, our plan beyond strategy. So this is our sustainable business strategy. And that means basically how we think about long-term business resilience and success whilst we're positively contributing towards society and the environment. And we align those with the UN sustainable development goals. And again, you may have similar strategies and approaches within your business. And then the other fundamental building block of the Jacob's culture is together beyond and that's our approach to living inclusion and creating a culture of belonging. And essentially we're trying to create a place where everybody can bring their whole self to work and there are four pillars to our together beyond strategy. One is about culture building and engagement. So we have to talk about it and actively try and find ways to build the culture and demonstrate it. The second one, which is really important, is about leadership and accountability. So really clear expectations of leaders to live our culture. The third one is around developing talent and how we develop talent in a really inclusive way. And then the fourth one is around growing our business because all of this helps us to grow our business because in order for us to generate the best solutions for some of those projects you saw earlier, we need a really inclusive approach so that everybody can bring their different ideas to the party. And those really are the foundation aspects to our culture. So I want to look at some quite practical things now in terms of... So we talk about a culture of caring in Jacob's and we talk about caring for our family, for our friends, for our colleagues. What does that look like? So I mentioned earlier on in the presentation that we started with the culture of caring and we do that literally for every meeting that we have and we'll do that with external clients as well. And if you start every meeting with doing one particular thing, then it becomes a habit and it becomes an expectation. If you work for an engineering company or a construction company, typically you'll be doing that around physical safety. You might also be doing that around mental health safety and I'll talk about that in a minute because that's a big part of what we do and I suspect what your organisations do too. We just talk about caring. So I'll give you two great culture of caring examples that I've heard recently. The first one was a colleague who went outside from his house to drive when he lived in an estate and the kids were playing outside in the estate and they were playing hide-and-seek and he set off in his car and he drove about two feet and then he realised he'd left his phone in the house seat. He got out of his car and he opened the door and he heard this terrible noise from one of the cars and he just didn't know what was going on. He looked in the car and one of the neighbour's kids was under his car because they'd hidden there doing hide-and-seek. So the child was fine, bit bumped and bruised, an amazing intervention of fate with his phone. He shared that with us, we shared that with our clients. So particularly when I pretty much most people who work for Jacobs now when they leave the house, they'll have a quick look under the car. We don't expect to see kids there, but you can see a neighbour's pet there. So that's an example of a culture of caring. Another one I heard shared yesterday was the impact of sleep on your physical health and how can you improve your sleep? We had a brief discussion around that. So really getting that idea of caring and really caring and grained into the organisation. Bottom left is a picture of our CEO virtual town hall. So when the COVID lockdown started, we ran town halls for 55,000 people led by the chief exec every week. And one of the first things he said in the sort of, pretty much the first one we did was that no one would lose their job at Jacobs as a result of COVID and we've held that line. So a really great example of leadership and caring. We spent a lot of time thanking people, so we have awards as you do, but again ingrained into how we lead and manage people. We talk a lot about positivity. And so we started an internal newsletter called Positive Energy, just sharing all the great volunteering community that people are doing across the business. And we started it in about the third week of lockdown and we thought we'll give it a go for every two weeks and we're still doing it sort of two years later. And then the final one there I just wanted to share is a campaign that we're developing called The Gift and that's my colleague Marcus Williams whose life was shared by stem cell transplant. So we have 55,000 people, so we are encouraging people to think about how they might engage in different forms of donation to help save people's lives. So I mentioned mental health briefly. This is what our mental health and resiliency programme looks like at the moment and there's sort of a snapshot on the left hand side of the resiliency webinars that we started running during lockdown and we're still running them. And again, we're running these and we've got maybe two and 3000 people joining live who record them so people can watch them back. And we're looking at all sorts of different aspects of mental health. And essentially we're trying to explain to people why they might be feeling what they're feeling so they can identify with things. And we have trained people on the calls that help us so we're not just enthusiastic amateurs, we've got professional people helping us with this content. So explain why people might feel like they do what the signs are and then what they can do about. And we've done sort of fairly obvious topics and then if you're wondering what cheesecake for the mind is all about, that one was about the positive impact that music can have on your mental health. So we've done a lot of outreach work with our staff around mental health. We already had a good mental health network of champions but we've really accelerated that during lockdown. And then on the right hand side we've introduced an app called One Million Lives. So if you're interested in this you can download that for free and use it. And we employ a lot of engineers and they like to measure things. So the idea with One Million Lives is it gives you a really quick way to measure how positive you're feeling about your mental health. And it gives you a rating and then it gives you some suggestions for how you can, how things that you can do to improve your positive mental health. So we're doing more and more work on that but again it's another aspect of us demonstrating our caring culture. And then the final aspect I guess of caring is inclusion. And so on the left hand side you'll see something called our Jacob's Employee Networks. So these are employee led networks, they're global but we have regional chapters too because we're a global company for people who want to either identify or support people in those particular areas. So I'm a member of the women's networks and passionate about improving the numbers of women we have in our business and in leadership roles and also I'm a passionate member of our Harambee network which is for our black members of staff. But you don't have to be black to join, there are lots of people like myself, white middle aged who are on those networks because we are allies for all of those people. So what does inclusion look like in practice? It means taking a stand. So George Floyd is a big catalyst for us in this agenda. We have had a number of amazing courageous conversations where again we've got a lot of people who are sharing their lived experiences of what it's like to be a black person in work sense, in life sense and they are the most educational things I've ever done in my career. The purpose of those is to educate people and so people could understand and understand what it's like to walk in other person's shoes. We've rolled out advocate and ally learning for all of our staff as well and that's the bottom right hand side. And then we also launched a policy called the advancement of social justice again off the back of George Floyd which is what Jacob is going to do to proactively push for social justice. So inclusion is a really big focus on Jacob's. I won't pretend we are there yet with that fully but we are on a rapid, exhilarating journey and it's brilliant I have to say to be part of it as a sort of marketing communications and as a leader it's completely inspiring. I just wanted to, if you are interested in this agenda and as you can tell I'm sort of interested and sort of passionate about it, there's a great leader called Sint Marshall and we came across Sint because she's the first black female chief exec of an MBA basketball team and it happens to be in Dallas which is where Jacob has headquartered. So we've made connection with Sint and she's come up with some great sort of, she's, if you want to Google her, she's got great story about her background, how she got to where she is and the role that she took on at Dallas Mavericks in a really challenging time and how she'd completely turned the organisation round. And the reason I'm showing you Sint is because she's come up with a great quote which I use all the time about inclusion, diversity and they're related but not the same thing. So think about diversity being invited to the party. So we need to have a diverse workforce as a start of a 10. But it's not inclusive unless we're able to bring those people to the fore and get them truly involved in the business. So inclusiveity has been effectively asked to dance and the sort of final extension of that then is a sense of belonging and how we develop a sense of belonging for our people which they will then, all of this radiates out to our clients by the way. So the sort of the internal is the external now and we've all seen this in many different sorts of aspects of marketing and communication. But definitely trying to build on that sense of belonging and encouraging people to feel like they can dance. So I want to talk a little bit about change as well because that's been a big aspect of what I've been involved with through my career in my role and essentially it doesn't matter whether we're talking about the sale or acquisition which I will talk about in a minute which was my experience or any organisational change. But it's basically about landing the why and the what and the why is often more important than the what. So in my experience, if people can understand why you need change then they're far more likely to embrace, understand and respond positively to it. You'd also need to land a what so there's nothing that frustrates me more than trying to communicate something that's not clear what's changed. So we need to be really clear when we're communicating change what's different tomorrow compared to what it was like today. And the other aspect of this is again, it's an interesting leadership piece which is if your leaders are convinced about this themselves then it will become paid. If your leaders are reading from the script and don't believe it then you've got less likelihood of that landing of that message landing positively. And then the final part I'd say about change is it's not a straight line so we always like to think we're going to go from, we want to go to B so we talk about right to left thinking often so where do we want to get to and then let's work backwards from where we are now and how we get there. Often the point B can change so I call that the change of Hokie-Kokie which we have to respond to. But again, if you can focus on the why then the what will generally follow. A couple of the thoughts around change use us a lot when we were doing our sort of business integration of two businesses. So I've helped to bring two businesses together so I would nuclear coming together into a longstanding Jacobs business unit two and a half thousand people into two and a half thousand people. We brought it together to five to five thousand people in our seven now. And pretty much what you've got to remember about change is it's a roller coaster and everybody's on a different place on this roller coaster and you may well be in the height of excitement trying to convince people of the change but they may well still be on point one in shock. So this is a good discussion we use this as culture of caring moment often when we're doing change to recognise that people will feel differently at different stages of the journey and that's okay and it's okay to normalise this and talk about it and we're all going through more and more change and we've seen things in lockdown in terms of following this sort of narrative as well. Okay, so I've got about five, six minutes to go and I want to give you a very quick business 101 of things to consider if you are ever in the position where you get a phone call to say, oh by the way, it's likely we're going to be sold we'd like you to lead the communications on the process. So here are the things to consider. First of all, and if you've not been involved with this I'm sure you'll find this useful. First of all the phases and you sort of typically see that's a typical running order of phases of announcements but these can be constituted really closely so the pre announcement and public announcement can be one and day one can be really short, an integration and then normalisation can be shorted too but in our case, we were working behind the scenes before the public announcement was made under strict NDAs and then we made the public announcement and then we worked towards day one which was when the legal deal was completed then we started the integration which is bringing the two businesses together and then you get to the stage where you normalised and the integration for our business took us nine months which was reasonably racy but we delivered it in nine months to the point where after nine months we're getting into sort of a normalisation phase. Thinking about the audiences you've got at least four audiences that you're needing to consider within all of this you've got investors and your shareholders and your leaders will be fundamentally involved and interested in their view. You've got staff of course and then you've got clients and then you've got a whole myriad of stakeholders and by the way, you can think these are all separate audiences and they are but your clients and your staff will watch the investor call to see what the chief executive says about the deal and the rationale for the deal so all of this needs to be tied up together in terms of the coherence of the messages and then of course there's risks as well so what are the risks of integrations the risks are many actually it sounds simple to do it's really not simple to do and that's because we're dealing with human beings so the risks are the customers leave staff leave, you might leave your boss might leave and then to a certain extent there's an interesting piece about some people want everything to change and some people want nothing to change and so you've got that whole thing about everything is different or nothing is different so those are the things you've got to consider when you're running the marketing communications of this so we started with the end in mind again in terms of when we were doing the integration so what did we actually want people to feel when we bought the businesses together and this was client staff and we came up with four feelings that we wanted people to get out of the deal and that pretty much was our navigational point so everything we did around integration was to deliver those feelings so often you've got the choice to do something expedient when you're integrating systems for instance or do you do something that delivers a really great result for the staff so by clearly setting this out on the right hand side we were able to deliver a really great experience for our clients and our customers during integration and we actually thought about well how are the cultures different between the two organisations and we did a bit of a chart and you see there's some differences but you also see actually there's lots of similarities but by thinking about that you're sort of understanding how people are going to react this is a brief picture of our sort of change plan so CD1 there the employees, customers and we had major investors on top of that but I won't put it all in the chart but just to look at really how are we going to deliver that experience for people and I'll just tell you one sort of side story people getting a new security pass was deemed to be a really important thing when we talked to people because typically in an organisation that might have been through change before a lot of stuff just gets rebranded but nothing really changes and the example of that was people who have passes with labels on from a couple of companies ago or the previous company so just to get everybody a new security pass on day one when they arrived with all of the officers rebranded overnight was a big thing and it made it immediately feel different so we knew that and we delivered it and the journey continues really so Jacobs is a really dynamic company and we're moving into new areas so we're moving into new sectors continuing with our acquisition trail so we made another one a couple of months ago and that will continue so it sort of never stands still but I guess the one thing this also does is position people for change and that sort of expectation that the company is going to continue to develop and push forwards so this is my sort of final slide and I'm not going to read it all you can read that yourself the fundamental lessons for me to share with you is it's not what businesses say but it's what businesses do that really matters and I know that so might be a blindingly obvious statement but I think it's our role as marketeers and communications people to make sure that the business does deliver what it says and we always try we always always aim to over deliver on the promise and if you want your culture to feel people to feel the culture it's got to be authentic and finally we are great creative problem solvers and that is a unique trait for business leaders it's our most valuable trait so you can use that wisely and you choose where you deploy that I'll give you one final example of what I mean by that recruiting people is our biggest challenge at the moment we have a lot of work we need to get more people to be able to deliver that work so is that a job for marketing and communications you might say no it's a huge challenge for the business that needs some creative thinking around it so I've deployed one of my best team members to the group to help to transform the way that we actually recruit people into the business because it's so important that's all I wanted to share with you appreciate I've gone through quite a lot quite quickly but I think we're going to go over to Judith for questions now Judith brilliant that's great thanks very much Nigel for a really insightful presentation so we're now going to have a short quick Q&A session so the first question what do you think comes first brand values or organisational culture let me tell you the way that the Jacobs brand was developed and the J mark and the challenging today and reinventing tomorrow that was developed by an agency coming in and deeply understanding the existing organisation and how we work and the brand came out of that it wasn't a new start at where we create you know an aspirational brand to the right hand side it was absolutely based on the foundations of the business okay next question Jacobs clearly lives and breathes its brand values and they underpin its organisational culture do you think that brand is now like credibility if the brand values are just marketing spiel and not embedded in their culture I'd say they have a limited lifespan so when we talk about sustainability in business sometimes we mean environmental issues but generally we mean how sustainable is what we are doing is it you know is it a long-term path so it's the iceberg model again if you're particularly if you're in a business to business organisation where relationships are everything how you do things is as important as what you do then if you are if you don't have brand and cultural alignment then you're essentially you know presenting a veneer aren't you and it's easier for me to say that as a senior leader but what we're always trying to do is to bring the brand to life and it's a lot easier to bring the brand to life if the connection between the brand and the culture are pretty much you know indivisible okay and then next question is do you have a top tip for getting colleagues to engage on social media to promote culture that's a really that's a great question I think you need a certain amount of a braveness so it's easy if you take if the company takes a stand like jacos did around around George Floyd then people will get behind that and people will be proud to share that so if people are proud about what you're doing they'll want to share it so again it comes back to sort of authenticity I guess if you are if you're doing interesting things people that people align with they'll want to share that and it's more natural you know right and we've got a few questions from somebody about sort of where there's a clash of cultures between the values of Jacobs perhaps and perhaps certain international cultures where there could be sort of human rights issues involved yeah that's a brilliant question yeah I'm happy to say that one to you this so so you're right and it's a really it's a really good question and there are there are areas that we we don't operate in and sometimes that's because of our American ownership and so for instance you know export restrictions with China is an obvious example and there are areas that we operate in that where they do where there are different cultures to different values to Jacobs but they are they are changing so we we will tell we generally take the approach of we would rather be in an area and help it to change and we do do that than just ignore it entirely so we don't just go there for the commercial value but we'll always go there with a view to can we help that company that that place but you know in terms of on its journey of progression so the Middle East is a great example which is which is changing rapidly and you have a different view of the Middle East if you're not working there and if you're an outsider looking in but definitely our role is you know to go and try and shape and influence rather than rather than ignore okay next question how do you ensure brand values and culture are replicated across all the offices are there any places where it's more of a struggle no you keep it simple so the culture of caring is probably the best example I can give you know there is no definition particularly for what that means people will you know execute that differently no different offices and of course different offices will always have you know different focuses as long as they have that underlying culture of caring and inclusivity you know and that will be different in different nations because different nations are you know different mixes of populations some are more diverse than others but that's okay because as long as you've got the foundational bedrock of what we're trying to achieve then you know that gets played differently in different places and that's okay because again it has to be authentic to the people okay next question should companies create or write a company's values and branding document to share when joining the company as part of an induction process perhaps does Jacob's have such a thing yeah it does so our brand and our values are the same thing by the way so we have a really short intro about what's the purpose of Jacob's and we have a sort of a broader vision I'm not mentioning it actually today but we have a broader vision about sustainable development and innovative solutions for a better world basically so that's our sort of high level purpose but we're quite clear about what the values are what the brand are what's more important is within the first week is people see that culture of caring and that inclusion being delivered in different ways and I always ask people when they join you know within a couple of weeks how are you finding it and generally it could just be the people I speak to but generally a lot of survey stuff shows this is you know they say wow I really sort of I read the stuff beforehand but I didn't know if it was going to be the case but I genuinely see it being delivered which is brilliant you know okay next question from someone who's saying as a middle management employee focused on building operations and culture but bridging the gap from the top management and with the overall staff the misalignment can be very vast what is your advice on that yeah I always take the view on this stuff is that I always and we often talk about this when we think about having inclusion discussions you start with positive intent so generally in my experience and it doesn't matter whether it's a leader or it's a junior member of staff people want to do a good job and they start with positive intent so sort of take that on face value you do need your leadership aligned but you also need your middle management aligned and I would say that's as important sometimes as your leadership because leadership has a shadow that it casts but it can be quite a broad shadow but it's not necessarily exposed that often so most of your staff's relationships will be with your managers your leaders absolutely need to be delivering the right values and behaviours so it has to be top up and bottom down and sometimes the best way to get that conversation going if you're struggling is to understand what staff think and if leaders are I've not worked with many leaders that don't want to understand how staff think and I've not worked with many leaders that don't want to improve staff's relationship of organisation so sometimes you need to speak with data and in my experience data always gets it's always a starting point for change okay and I think we've got time for one final question I think earlier in the presentation you said about being able to describe a culture in three words how would you describe Jacobs in three words? I would describe Jacobs as caring inclusive and dynamic just because of the amount of change that we're sort of going through okay thank you and on that note we'll say thank you very much Nigel with some really good questions there from our viewers so sadly that's all we have time for for our webinar today I'd like to say thanks to Nigel for today's presentation and to the CIM North West Group for organising the event we do hope you found it interesting and worthwhile we will be back on the 18th of January with our next webinar which will be marketing with purpose with Ben Irons you'll find further details listed on the events page on the CIM website where you'll also be able to register for the session so on behalf of CIM thank you once again Nigel for a really good presentation and thank you to all that joined us and we look forward to welcoming you again to our webinars next year take care everybody goodbye