 Welcome everyone to this evening's session of the New Colombo Plan Momentum Series, shaping a stronger future together. The New Colombo Plan Initiative brought to you by the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade, and tonight in collaboration with the Place Waterhouse Cooper. My name is Saray McKinley and I will be your moderator for this evening's session, in which we'll be exploring ASEAN and Australian relationships with a focus on education and services. Before we get started, I would like to acknowledge that this evening's session is taking place on Ngunnawal and Nambry Country. I would like to pay my respects to the elders of these sovereign nations, past, present and emerging, and acknowledge their continuing contributions and connections to this region's landscapes, waterways and communities. I would also like to extend these respects to any First Nations people joining us here today at the Diplomatic Academy or online via our live stream. By way of introduction, I'm a 2018 New Colombo Plan Mobility Grant recipient for Vietnam, a 2020 New Colombo Plan scholar for Fiji, and was a 2020 New Crest Mining sponsored scholar. I'm currently finishing my last semester of a double degree in international development and environmental science at the Australian National University and I'm working on federal climate change policy at the Clean Energy Regulator. Of course, we're also joined here this evening by a very fantastic and most distinguished panel of guest speakers. We have Gabby Kosigan, CEO of BAE Systems Australia. Gabby joined BAE Systems Australia as the Chief Executive Officer in October 2017. As CEO, she is responsible for one of the nation's largest defence companies, which has supported the Australian Defence Force for 65 years. Gabby retired as a colonel in the Australian Army after a distinguished career that included operational experience, providing logistic operations support for Australian and US deployed military forces. Gabby brings to BAE Systems a broad range of experience as a Senior Executive in International Logistics, Aviation and Supply Chain Management Domains. This includes her appointment as CEO for LinFox International Group, during which she focused on transforming the business with an emphasis on strong customer service and high standards in safety and integrity across the region. She's a former member of the Australian ASEAN Council, promoting Australia's interests in Southeast Asia. Gabby was a strong supporter of the Council's focus to initiate and support activities to enhance awareness, understanding and links between people, business and institutions in Australia and Southeast Asia. Gabby has recently been appointed Chair of the Council for Women and Families, United by Defence Services, and this forum provides women and families a direct connection to the Minister's Office to raise issues affecting defence members and their families. Finally, Gabby has been honoured for her military service by the Australian and US Governments and NATO. She was awarded a most excellent Order of the British Empire for services to UK and Australia relations. We also have joining us online Andrew Parker, Partner and Asia Practice Leader of Price Water House Cooper and a New Colombo Glam Business Champion. Andrew is a Sydney-based partner at PWC, where he leads the Australian Firms Asia Practice. Andrew joined Price Water House Cooper in 1985, became a partner in 1999 and spent 12 years in PWC's London, Moscow and Jakarta offices. Andrew has a long association with Asia, having lived and worked in Indonesia and was the leader of PWC's Asia Telecom industry until 2012, a role he held for nearly 10 years. Andrew is a member of the Leadership Group of the Business Council of Australia's Asia Task Society, Asia Task Force. He's also a non-executive director of the Australian Indonesia Centre at Monash University in China Matters, a member of the Executive Committee of the Australia-Japan Business Cooperation Committee and a member of the Advisory Board of the Asia Society. Finally, we also have Ray Marcello joining us this evening, who is the Assistant Secretary of the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trades Southeast Asia Regional Engagement Branch. Ray has served at the Australian Embassy in Jakarta, led DFAT's Parliamentary and Media Branch and Asian Desk and has performed roles as Deputy Speech Writer in the Office of the Trade Minister. Before joining DFAT, Ray was a journalist, including an assignment as new daily correspondent with the Financial Times. He speaks for Hasa Indonesia, Filipino and his Learning Mandarin. And finally, but certainly not least, we have Will Nankervis, Australian Ambassador to the Australian Mission to the Association of Southeast Asian Nations. Previously, Will was the Assistant Secretary of the Indo-Pacific Strategy and Regional Maritime Branch in the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade, where his responsibilities included implementation of Australia's Indo-Pacific Strategy, as well as regional maritime security issues. Mr. Nankervis was a member of the Task Force that developed Australia's 2017 Foreign Policy White Paper. And prior to that, he headed the DFAT Iraq and Syria Task Force, who is the Political Counselor in Australia's permanent mission to the United Nations in New York during Australia's term on the UN Security Council. As a career DFAT officer, Mr. Nankervis has also undertaken postings and short term missions in Sri Lanka and Solomon Islands. He holds a Bachelor of Science in Physics and a Bachelor of Arts in Mathematics and Philosophy from the University of Queensland. Now for housekeeping, in terms of tonight's event, the panel discussion will be running till 5 p.m. and will include an opportunity for audience questions. And for those of you who are joining us online, please pop your questions into the Webex chat box. From 6 p.m., we will also have an opportunity for networking and drinks here at the Diplomatic Academy, which I encourage you all to stick around for. Now let's get to the good stuff. I don't think anyone has captured it quite as simply as Penny Wong, Shadow Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade, when she said, Australia's future and our future prosperity are inevitably in Asia. Indeed, our relationship with the Association of Southeast Asian Nations is absolutely central to this fact. Since becoming the first dialogue partner of ASEAN in 1974, Australia has shared a deep and dynamic relationship with ASEAN member states, founded on principles of mutual cooperation, shared security, shared prosperity and connections. Our relationship with ASEAN is multifaceted, encompassing a diversity of evolving agendas and issues. A topic that has always been central to our relationship, however, is that of education and services. This is a topic we've heard leaders in government, the private sector and academia make broad sweeping statements about for some time. But since becoming a dialogue partner in 1974, our world has changed immeasurably. The rise of Asia, the forces of globalization, shifting geopolitical tensions and indeed COVID-19, have fundamentally changed our region. The opportunities and challenges for Australia and ASEAN are not the same as they were 50 years ago, 10 years ago or even 18 months ago. So in tonight's session, I'm really keen to bring this conversation of education and services and the role it plays in our relationship with ASEAN into the now. My overarching question for tonight is whether Australia is truly harnessing the value of education and services to our relationship with ASEAN in a way that is sufficiently responding to and anticipating contemporary challenges in our region. To get us started, I'd like to invite the Australian ambassador to ASEAN, Mr Will Nankervis, to kick off this evening's session by sharing some opening reflections on the contemporary ASEAN-Australia relationship and how he sees education and services fitting in the picture. Thanks very much. There's a bit of a thunderstorm in Indonesia at the moment. Hopefully you can hopefully you can hear me okay. Well, look, I really warm welcome to our guests to new Colombo plan scholars and alumni, mobility students and those of course who are joining us at the main event in Canberra and from overseas locations. I'm really happy to welcome you all to this, what is the second session of the momentum series, shaping a stronger future together. And of course, as our ambassador to ASEAN, especially pleased to participate in this session, Australia ASEAN education and services co-hosted by DFAT and PWC. I understand my colleague, Andrew Goldzanowski, High Commissioner to Malaysia, really welcome the opportunity to open the first session last week. I'd like to acknowledge the contributions of Gabby Costigan, CEO, BAE Systems, who is not only a member of the ASEAN-Australia Business Council or Australian ASEAN Business Council and an NCP Business Champion, but a great leader who never stops promoting Australia's interests in the region. Thanks also to our session sponsor, Andrew Parker. Good to see you again, Andrew. Andrew's partner and as we've heard an Asia Practice Leader of PWC Australia and NCP Business Champion. Thanks to you and your whole team for your really long and steady support for the NCP, hosting interns, sponsoring scholarships, creating job pathways for the broader NCP community. And I'd like to also recognize my colleague Ray Marcello. Not least, I would like to thank our chair, Soraya McGinley, NCP alumna from 2020, who's going to chair this session. Thank you, Soraya. So ASEAN is really central to Australia's foreign policy. If you look at recent speeches from our Prime Minister or Foreign Minister, even the address that the Prime Minister gave at the start of the year when he was outlining his priorities for 2021, ASEAN always gets a very strong mention and they'll always talk about ASEAN centrality. The Prime Minister and Prime Minister are both fond of saying ASEAN is central to our vision for a stable, prosperous and inclusive Indo-Pacific region. So ASEAN is important for a few reasons. I can talk about this all day, but I won't. I'll just quickly mention three. It's been central to underpinning regional stability. Secondly, it's the key rule and norm setting body in the region. So what ASEAN says matters, what ASEAN says about the way states should engage and the culture in the region, the degree of adherence to rules and norms is all really important for setting the regional order in the Indo-Pacific. Thirdly, ASEAN is the strategic convener. So every year, ASEAN leads the forum, the East Asia Summit, for example, that brings together the President of the US, leaders from China, Japan, Korea, Australia, of course, to talk about the big strategic issues. And I could add a fourth which is relevant to the topic today, which is the role of ASEAN in economic integration and driving economic integration in the region. So COVID-19 has really shown that Australia and ASEAN's futures are intertwined. We know that none of us will be safe until we're all safe. And of course, a couple of months ago the first doses of COVID-19 vaccines arrived in Australia on a Singapore Airlines flight. So as really close neighbours and key trading partners, we will need to share a path to recovery from COVID-19. We know that service sectors, travel and tourism industries affected by movement restrictions are likely to remain pretty hard hit, even as we see recovery and manufacturing and trade in goods. And with this in mind, ASEAN's commitment to free trade and open markets in the face of global headwinds is really important. And I think I want to particularly mention and welcome the signing of ASEAN, the Regional Comprehensive Economic Partnership Agreement in November last year. It set a really important signal at a time when there was, of course, a temptation to look inwards of ASEAN's commitment to trade liberalisation and openness. ASEAN brings together our top regional trading partners into a single economic framework anchored in ASEAN and will link us more closely to this dynamic region. So we hope and believe that Australian businesses will really benefit further from regional value chains and this will contribute to jobs and growth in Australia as well as across the region. We really, ASEAN really stepped up our engagement with ASEAN last year in the context of the global pandemic. Prime Minister, at the ASEAN Australia summit laced late last year, the landmark series of initiatives, a big package and no, right, was very involved in putting that together. The joys of thunderstorms in Jakarta. If you can still hear me, I'd just like to say that ASEAN Australia really strong people. Okay, that's probably a good signal for me to wrap up quickly, I think. I was just talking about people to, okay, I was talking about people to people connections, which are, which are surviving and thriving even despite the pandemic and the long distances of our online communication. And this is certainly a good example of the challenges involved, but the ways that we're able to overcome and keep connections going. Australia and ASEAN have at the highest level committed to further strengthen people to people links with a special focus on investing in enduring connections between future leaders. The contribution of education, sports, arts and cultural exchange programs between ASEAN and Australia and especially the new Colombo plan will keep deepening those linkages, social and cultural linkages and strengthen people to people links between ASEAN Australia and Australia. I'd like to really recognize the contribution of NCP scholars and NCP business champions. And once again, welcome you all to what promises to be a great ASEAN Australia discussion in the momentum series. Thank you very much and apologies again for the connectivity issues. Thank you. Thanks very much Will for those opening remarks. Gabby, I might ask you the first question to kick off our discussion. Sure. In a recent edition of the ASEAN magazine, which was themed ASEAN Youth Powering Into the Future, the Singaporean Minister for Education, Mr. Lawrence Wong, said that Singapore recognizes that education is about much more than book knowledge and academic abilities. It is also about instilling with our children key traits like communication and teamwork, as well as creative and innovative thinking that will enable them to succeed. Based on your experiences of working in the ASEAN region, and perhaps you might like to provide an example, what do you think are the key traits and skills that young Australians need to succeed in ASEAN? And do you think that the Australian education sector is doing enough to really prepare us for that challenge? Okay, good question, big question. Yes, I do think the Australian education system is, or maybe not doing enough, but it is certainly stepped up, I think, in what children need now, you know, to focus on for their future careers. In terms of the sorts of traits that, you know, me as a business leader, if I think about what we're looking for in new employees and young people, and particularly, you know, whether it's in Australia or across the region, a couple of key traits, I guess. One, I would definitely encourage people to focus on their language skills, the opportunity to learn a second language, you know, that's gold, that will take you all over the world. You know, so I would certainly encourage people, you know, if they've got that ability to focus on getting a second or a third language if they can. Another area, I guess, that I have found through my own career, and I've worked, well, across, I ran a business across Southeast Asia, across seven countries there, eight countries, and also in India and China, is, you know, develop your networking skills, you know, networking, building relationships, you know, and you can start that in school, you know, in high school and primary school, even. Develop those networks, because those networks will help you throughout your career. It could even just be, you know, in starting with a sporting team or then moving into, you know, it could be anything, but develop those networks, find the people who interest you, learn from them, talk to them, ask questions, you know, be open to learning every day is probably another key trait, I would say. Leadership skills are probably the most important, I would say, having, you know, being able to work across multiple countries or go into different cultures, you know, first you've got to have, I think, the ability to understand the social dynamic and the cultural experiences that you'll have in different places that you work, you know, and developing your leadership skills, your ability to speak publicly, to engage with people from all different walks of life is very important as well. So, and I do think now the Australian education system sees that those soft skills that people need, not just the, you know, the book skills are really important. So, you know, you'll see a lot of schools now who are focused on doing different things to develop young people's leadership ability, exposing them to different things, whether it's through basic things like debating, public speaking opportunities, working with sport, working, you know, exchange programs with different schools, those sorts of things. So, I guess they're probably my key ones, yeah, networking, leadership and language skills. Thank you, buddy. I think you've just signed up the new Colombo plan pretty well. I might throw the next question to you, Andrew. Andrew, as far back as 2014, you have been commenting on the need for Australia to seriously think about the way we invest in and engage with Asia. Recently, you reaffirmed this sentiment in the business council of Australia's Asia task force paper titled a second chance, how Team Australia can succeed in Asia. I should flag that this paper mentioned the new Colombo plan on a number of occasions. So, thank you for that, Andrew. My question for you is, Andrew, when you were talking about Australia's second chance to succeed in Asia, particularly in ASEAN, how do you see education and services coming into the mix? Well, they're very important parts of our overall export mix, actually. I think many people, many Australians perhaps don't fully appreciate just how significant the education sector is and the tourism sector is to Australia's export mix. You know, when we talk about this sort of the big five Australian exports, you know, iron ore, I guess most people would guess coal, natural gas, gold and beef are the top five. But actually, if you put services into that mix, number four and number five are education and tourism. So, they're really, really important parts of our mix. The other thing which is particularly important about both of those two services exports is the goodwill that it builds in the region and the knowledge that it builds within the region and the networks that it builds. So, you mentioned the new Colombo plan and the benefits of the new Colombo plan to Australian students. You know, many of the people that I've interacted with over the years, particularly now at a more senior level, have themselves been beneficiaries of the original Colombo plan and many of their children have come to Australian universities and studied at Australian universities. And the importance of that not only in the government-to-government relationship, but also in business life is very hard to overstate. And I think it is a particular asset that Australia has that we haven't exploited as well as we could do and one that I think, you know, if we're going to be really successful in the region and achieve the kind of the goals and objectives that we've set, this is an area where we could do a lot better for ourselves. Yeah. Thank you, Andrew. Ray, I might throw a question to you now, sort of building off the comments of Gabby and Andrew. I'd be interested in your thoughts as someone working with government who's got experience with diplomacy and some diverse language skills. How does education and services feed into the idea of building people-to-people links, soft power, diplomacy? How does that feed into your work? Thanks for the question. The new Colombo plan, I see the new Colombo plan as both benefiting not just the participants who've done it, but it's a national capability. And in fact, it's a sovereign capability for Australia. If we didn't have the new Colombo plan, we would be years behind our engagement with the region. So the fact that we've built up thousands of Australians with capability in the region, in Southeast Asia, in particular in the Pacific, we now have in our stocks a workforce and a group of citizens who are aware and have on the ground experience working and living in the region. That's not just good for business, but it is good for the country. I do see language capability and knowledge of our neighbours as a sovereign capability. And if we don't invest in that, it is a vulnerability for the country. So I see it in quite serious terms in a way. And so again, we're thankful that NCP exists, but we need to keep investing in those, not just the NCP, but the education systems that produce graduates that have got awareness of the region. And as you say, Gaby, the leadership skills and networking skills, those things are prized by our partners in the region. But where are we today? We're in a difficult position because we've closed our borders, which is good for us here. We can all shake hands in Canberra, but we've got a lot of ground to make up in both welcoming students back into Australia and also sending our young people and the people who have done NCP back to the region. So obviously we have a big job to do to ensure the safety of our fellow citizens in Australia, but we've got a lot of ground to make up when we are ready to re-engage with the region. Gaby, I might throw to you now, sort of building on that comment. I read in a speech that you received some advice from your grandmother when you were young that's guided you throughout your career. And that is if you don't ask, you don't get. The question that's certainly on my mind and that of many other NCP scholars is we talk about Asia capability, language skills, race just shared, being key assets to business and government in Australia. Hence why lots of students like myself, who see opportunities like the New Colombo plan or study abroad. But I think many of us actually find it hard when we go to seek out entry level jobs to maintain a competitive advantage. I'd like to know from your business perspective, how does your organization look to actively tap into a talent pool of young Australians with Asia capabilities and experience in the region? Well, firstly, it is and I think I can probably speak for many businesses in Australia that we're always looking for people that have international experience because it brings so many benefits to the individual when they come to work in your organization. And I don't think it matters what your organization is. Just those opportunities to have different social and cultural experiences, different learnings, your maturity level changes because you're dealing with different things, your ability to negotiate, to be a decision maker, all those sorts of things, you having those experiences overseas, you learn so much more. So I see that as a real asset that you could bring to my organization. So I think and it's actually for, so I'm in a global business, BAE Systems in Australia is the largest defense company in Australia and we operate all over the world. I run the Australian business and with a focus on Asia as well. And for our executives in our business, so sort of middle management and above, if you've got international experience, you go on the high pot list or the high potential list. So it is certainly an asset for you. So I would encourage all of you to continue to pursue that. Those opportunities when they're presented to you and don't just take one. I've lived all over the world and I've had so many different experiences and I've worked all over the world and they've helped shape me and my leadership style certainly now. So I would certainly encourage that. In terms of, I guess, tapping into the market for young people at that entry level, businesses now don't just look at your CV. This is a very competitive marketplace in Australia and same in Southeast Asia. So we need to know who is the person that's going to work in our organization? What are your values? What do you believe in? Businesses like mine, each business has its own culture. And I need to know that the people who are working in my business believe in our culture, believe in the values of our organization. So I would encourage people to be really clear on what their values are, what they stand for. Because when you interview for a role, that's something that's really important to business. Those businesses are investing in you and many businesses these days will give you so many opportunities for further education to send you overseas, those sorts of things for different opportunities. So if they're going to invest in you, they want you to invest in their organization. So I think that's probably enough. Thank you. Andrew was certainly something that came through the Asia Task Force report supporting NCP scholars. From a PWC perspective, how is your organization looking to tap into the talent pool that is an NCP alumni cohort? Yeah, look, I didn't endorse what Gabby has said there about the importance of that diversity. It is interesting though, one of the things that we did identify in the task force work was that there is a real lack of Asia capability at the senior levels of many Australian companies. And that capability is particularly apparent in large companies. And especially our listed, the cohort of our listed companies, the ASX200 and in fact Asia Link published a study, I think it was about July last year, where they found that only 10 percent of our ASX200 companies had Asia capable executives in what they refer to as the C-suite, just 10 percent, which is a stunning failure for corporate Australia. In our organization, we look at that and completely transparent. At the senior levels, we also don't have the mix of diverse talent that I think that we're aiming to have. But if I look at the kind of graduates that we hire, the young people that are walking through the door straight out of university, there's enormous diversity. I mean, half of them are women, probably 30 something percent would be from an Asian cultural background. And well in excess of that, if you add in sort of non-anglo cultural backgrounds in that sort of diversity metric. But at a senior level, we've put in place and have had in place since 2015 a target, which we published on our website, which said that for the new partner admits, so this is a way of building over time that diversity into the partner group, what we sort of refer to as 40, 40, 20. So 40 percent female, 40 percent male, the 20 percent in the middle could come from either cohort. But we also had another target, which was aimed at diversity, which was 30 percent of new partners admitted in 2020 had to be from a non sort of Anglo background. So that of course doesn't mean exclusively Asian cultural background, but clearly the Asian cohort is a significant cohort. So we've taken steps, positive steps to address it. And we've had to do that because just leaving it to the system, if you like, to achieve that wasn't working for us. And I've had this discussion with many of our clients and my question to them and answer to them when they ask, well, why is it important? It's actually pretty simple. If you're bored in your management team, don't look like your customer or your target customer group, then you've got a problem. And that problem is going to be a really big one at some point in the future. And so so if you look at the diversity of our community, we actually have to reflect that diversity in our organizations, not just at the graduate high level, but at the more at the more senior levels. And this is not just a problem, by the way, of corporate Australia. I mean, it's pretty well documented that in the public service and in university sectors, we've got a long way to go to achieve that. And it's important because, when I mentioned in the first question you asked, one of our most significant assets is that diversity of our community. There's not another country in the world that has a better diverse or a more diverse community than Australia. But it's a community that we don't, I think, fully tap into when we're looking at this question of how do we how do we become bigger and grow our economic interests in the region? Yeah, thank you, Andrew. I might zoom out now and throw to you Ray and get discussion looking at the experience of education in ASEAN member states. So as was the case all across the world, COVID-19 hit the education sector's heart as estimated that school closures in ASEAN affected the quality of education received by more than 152 million children and youths. Some are saying that 2020 was a lost year for the region's youth. Whilst member states made a tremendous effort to transition to remote learning schools, schools were largely underprepared. The digital infrastructure was not in place, device access was not universal, and many education institutions and households struggled to cope with the requirements. Commentators are noting that this really threatens to increase inequalities and negate progress made on poverty reduction in the region. What do you think are some of the key challenges faced by ASEAN member states when it comes to education and services and how is Australia providing support? No, it's a big question. I certainly know first hand from talking to our posts in Southeast Asia how hard it has been for young people to continue schooling. So typically, for example, our local staff in a post in Indonesia will spend half their morning homeschooling their kids and then they'll spend the rest of the day working for the embassy. So that's a long day where they're already tired by the time they open their DFET laptop. In some cases, we know that there's a shared computer in one household, so the kids are struggling to get access to their computer. So we can't underestimate, I don't think anyone is, but we can't underestimate just the sheer negative impact that the past year has had in Southeast Asia, as well as in countries like the Philippines and Indonesia at the moment. We were still going through a serious outbreak in COVID, Vietnam is just going through a new phase of lockdown, so this is a continuing problem and we will only really know the results of that in time by how much this has affected school age populations and university age populations. DFET really isn't responsible in a way for the educational services aspects and I think I know that, for example, our ambassador in Indonesia, Gary Quinlan finished today and the new ambassador, Penny Williams, is about to start, but Gary made the point in an op-ed in the local media that there is now, thanks to the frameworks that we've agreed with Indonesia, an Australian campus that can offer services to Indonesian students. Now, these are things that we can do through trade agreements and through agreements that we strike with our partners in the region. So in time, once their own COVID protocols, they're comfortable with their protocols, we can start offering these classes in person and Australian education service to Indonesian students on the ground. We're doing that in Malaysia and hopefully we can do that in more places across Indonesia, so these are things that we can facilitate through bilateral agreements. On the other side, on the development program, we are seriously looking at how we can make up ground on basic education because there's a serious impact on poverty, of course, with kids not being able to access schooling. We're going to have to work with our partners in each of the countries across Southeast Asia to see what we can do to help rebuild or at least restore the kinds of educational services that they have been providing to their citizens. We don't have an education program in every country, either. It's a function of our priorities. In fact, one of the things we've got to do is support our partners in the region, get their vaccination programs up and running, and that's one of the things we're doing. So let's get those vaccines rolled out. Let's get those support systems in place so they can roll out vaccines. Then we're talking about getting back to school. And you can see how complicated this situation is in Southeast Asia. So while you've made a really important point about the role of education and poverty, a few things have to come in place first. And clearly economic recovery is one of the things that our partners in Southeast Asia are looking for. And that's one of the things that I think Will was about to say before he cut out was we are focusing on economic recovery and supporting our partners in Southeast Asia, get their economies back and track. Part of that is our own bilateral programs, part of that is new programs that the Prime Minister announced last year, including this vaccine program that I've just mentioned. I might just make one final point on what Andrew mentioned before. Not just on diversity, I agree with what he was saying about the need for the public sector to reflect the community. But business and government in some ways are counterbalanced for each other. He mentioned the Asia capability with a lack of it in the ASX listed companies. Conversely, certainly when I speak with DFAT, we are, well we are not overweight, but we are heavily weighted in Asia. So setting aside China Korea, Japan and India, Southeast Asia has the highest concentration of Australian diplomats, more than any other region in the world. So we have always prioritised Southeast Asia as part of Australia's foreign policy since we had an independent foreign policy. So Southeast Asia has always been a consistent and constant feature of Australian foreign policy. And those of you NCP participants who have spent time in Southeast Asia know how deep our connections run across our partners. It's not just DFAT, it's across a range of government agencies, it's across a range of organisations, institutions. So it's a level of familiarity that we have in Southeast Asia that I think we need to continue. And the NCP engagement in Southeast Asia, even though it's a new thing, it is part of a long running decades of engagement with the region. Okay. I'm just looking at the time. I understand we've got some questions that have come through from our live audience. My fellow NCP alumni, Juliet, is going to pass them through. Thanks, Soraya. So we've got a question coming from Bayan, who's one of the other NCP scholars. So he asks, tens of thousands of international students from ASEAN nations do study in Australia. And what contributions do you think that their Australian education can make to regional development upon their return home? Yeah. Look, this is hard to measure, but it is extremely important. The contribution to exposure that international students get of Australia and their impression that they take back home has enormous effects. I think our former secretary, Peter Buggy, said, you can't sell Australia effectively overseas. You have to see Australia and be in Australia. As Australians know, there's so much about this country that you can only experience for yourself. And it's partly a function of experience. When international students live here and study here and interact with Australians, they get a sense of our values. He talked about that before, Gabby. They get a sense of our freedom. They get a sense of what we stand for. And they take that back home. And we've benefited from that very clearly when we see alumni of Australian universities who are now leaders in their communities back home, not just across government, but across all sorts of facets of society in Southeast Asia. The fact you can get a good flat white in Jakarta is because there are so many Indonesians who have studied in Melbourne. And Sydney, I should say. But it's that kind of cultural, that's a pretty soft example, but we also have cabinet ministers who have studied in Australia. And we have business leaders who understand where we come from. That might seem like a trite observation in a way that when things, when there are tensions in relationships, as there often are, they know where we come from. And we can rely on that as we resolve them. When I was saying earlier about networks, so the networks that students develop here while they're studying in Australia will carry them through their careers. And they become the best salespeople for our country as well, because they go back and they talk about the amazing experiences that they've had as students here, the opportunity that they've been given to study and research here in Australia, to be able to contribute to our national agenda as well, because international students do do that. And they take that back with them to their countries. And they will, because of the positive experiences that they've had here, they will encourage their children and the like. And that's how that circle continues. So it is very important. We have a second question. So I was just going to add one further aspect to that question, if I could as well, is when the students go home, they take home skills with them as well. And for most of these countries in Southeast Asia, particularly, skills are desperately short. And so their economic development depends on skills that they develop here in Australia at our educational institutions, and they take home. Now, that's very much in the interest of each of those countries to have those skills, because that produces the economic development. But it's also very much in Australia's interest, because a happy region makes for both a prosperous region for us to do business in. But it's also a safer region. Thanks, Andrew. So we had another question from another NCP scholar, Oliver Pang. And he asks, how can Australia and ASEAN countries continue to forge links in education, while borders do remain shut in the current pandemic and also in future pandemics? Could I answer that one again? I'll say a little. So, look, I think it's people are doing a heroic job at the moment, really, to maintain these connections, where there are, where there's online engagement. And I know that's happening across a whole range of organizations, institutions that will have to do for now. For example, one program, a small program that I've been involved in is the Indonesia Youth Exchange program. And that has been running for more than 20 years, and that's continued online as well. These are the networking attunities that we've been able to continue, and that'll run again this year virtually. It's not really as effective as a face-to-face on the ground experience, but we have to do those kinds of things just to keep those connections going. Did you mention before the example of the campus in Indonesia? Those, we just need to keep working at it to make sure that when we are ready, we can really pick up the ground that we frankly have lost because our borders are shut. Well, probably the only point I'd make is, I think through the last 12 months, many of the academic institutions in Australia had to very much focus internally on how their organizations were going to continue to run and losing such a large part of the population of their international students. But one thing I think they'll probably focus on this year to build on those relationships internationally is many or most of the universities in Australia have sister or brother schools overseas. So I would expect that they would focus on joint opportunities to collaborate, and the only way to do that right now is online. And I think people have, certainly even in my own organization, and we're a technology company, we embrace technology like you wouldn't believe in this last 12 months. The amount that we saved travel from a business perspective was quite phenomenal. But business continued, we were able to continue to operate because we adapted. And that's what these academic institutions have to do is they've had a year to build up their resilience, and now they've got to adapt so that we can continue that cultural exchange. And we might jump, does anyone from the floor have any questions? We do have some additional questions from the online chat. So one question that we had was from Bayan again. And the question was, should the Australian education system prioritize the learning of Southeast Asian languages? And yeah, question for the panelists was, why do you believe that Indonesian language study has been steadily decreasing in Australia over the past decade? And Canon should we reverse this trend? Andrew, I might start with you if you have any ideas. Yeah, sure. I think that's a really important, important question. And as a country, we have to look at how we resolve this. I think there's been some excellent papers written over the last, well, probably over a number of years, pointing out a decline in our Indonesian capability, which is absurd when you think about the strategic importance of Indonesia. It just doesn't add up. Yet it is the case. And it's not just a question or a problem that I think is the responsibility of government. So we talked before about what it is that businesses look for in students. Well, I think part of the reason why enrollments are started to decline in some of these courses, which then force universities to close courses is that students are not seeing employment outcomes being influenced by that, that sort of time that they spend studying. And so I think actually as a business community and a government, we've got to get ourselves together and think about what are the strategic priorities for our country. If Asia does feature in it and I think everybody thinks that that is the case, then what is it that we need to do to improve the position and our capability? And it seems pretty obvious to me that language has to be one of those things. And Indonesian is just one of the languages that we need to make available and invest in because I think it is very well documented and anybody who's done much time in the region and business in the region would know that those language capabilities are just so important. I mean, from a personal perspective, I knew nothing about Indonesian culture until I learned the language. But learning the language helped me enormously in understanding culture. And I think that goes to the, you know, Chinese, it goes to the various Chinese dialects. I'm sure it goes to the Indian dialects as well. We probably won't be able to afford to teach everybody every language, but I do think we need to have centres of excellence and we need a national approach to this and it's something that has been spoken about for decades. And if we really believe our future is in the region, it is something as a nation that we've got to get our heads together and solve. I do think in the last decade though that Australian schools have pivoted to Asian languages, you know, or to offer Asian languages. You know, I've got an 11-year-old who's studying Mandarin and I've got a nine-year-old who's doing Bahasa. You know, and that's what the school offers. You know, when I went to school, it was French and German. You know, so there has certainly been a big pivot there because I think now the strategic importance of the region is understood. You know, and I think what we need to be pushing our government to do, particularly the Minister for Education is, you know, it used to be, it was mandated, you did mathematics in English. Well, why isn't it mandated that we do a language? You know, and it's about educating, I think, you know, the Australian community of the value of having that second language and what the opportunities that will open up for people by having that opportunity. You know, I mean, I think if you went back to when I was a child, there was almost an ignorance, if you like, around having a second language. You had a second language if your parents came from, you know, another country. Not many people were actively pursuing, you know, language studies back then because it wasn't really seen as a benefit to you. But it is certainly now, in the business community now, it is a sought after, you know, skill, if you like. Yeah, so I think there's certainly more that can be done, but I do think there has been a pivot in Australia. Yeah, thanks. Andrew's right. I mean, there has been plenty of studies about the decline of Asian language teaching. The questioner said she'll be prioritized Southeast Asian languages above others. I'd rather not, in a sense, because I think all, you know, where students are going themselves and studying languages, Japanese and Chinese is important. And as Andrew said, we can't afford to do all. Nor do I, I don't want to wring my hands though and say that it's all, it's all lost and so on, because everyone here is proof that people are interested in engaging in the region. Why did you do it? And why are those who are watching this, why are they involved in the program? They clearly see that there are opportunities for them. And so their families might be persuaded that it's resulted in opportunities for their kids and their other extended families. So parents somewhere along the line making decisions influencing their kids before they enroll to enroll in modern or not in Bahasa Indonesia, for example. So we do have a situation where there are now less than 50 studying in the ANU, for example, which is a premier source of our Bahasa Indonesia expertise for the country. But it is within our power to change that. Clearly there is a role for government to invest more in that. But as Andrew said, we can't do it all. But it is up to the community to identify that there are opportunities, there are reasons and there are compellingly personal reasons for people to invest in an Asian language. I should say it's also not just incumbent on young people. I mean, I only picked up my third language as an adult and then my fourth now. So not always lost. We have a question from the audience. Thanks so much. And great job. So impeccable. I'm seeing. Hi, I'm Cameron. I was an NCP scholar in 2019. I was the ASEAN fellow then. I had a few questions. You can kind of choose which one you want to answer. My first question is about internationalization of campuses. I think an experience that international students feel, particularly my friends from Southeast Asia, is feelings of isolation on campus and struggles connecting with domestic students. We talked about how the experiences of those students in Australia is really foundational to how they talk about Australia overseas. In the context of a lot of cuts to universities at the moment, but also the lingering problems of those students connecting anyway. What role can students play and what should universities be doing to make campuses better experience for international students? I suppose the second question is once those students go home, I think a lot of my friends from Southeast Asia are experiencing a huge proliferation in the gig economy. I suppose a conversation about education is a conversation about jobs. A lot of these people going home and there's a lot of jobs doing freelance and a lot of secure work. So I suppose my question was when Australia invests in the region, how do we advocate for secure work? Or is that something that we really care about in our foreign policy? I suppose the third question because there's a lot of NCP people watching is when people can't travel overseas right now, what should they be doing to keep building on their Asia expertise and to engage with the region, engage with young people from across the region? Andrew, I might bring you into the mix if you'd like to get us started. Yeah, look, it's a complex problem and it's not just one with Southeast Asians. And I think not just one in Australia either. I saw a little while, probably two years ago now, some studies that were commenting on the experiences that Chinese students had had at US universities. And there was a kind of a sense that those students were coming to the universities and actually going home with weaker English language skills than they had come to America with. And anecdotally, you hear similar sorts of stories in Australia as well. So I do think the university model needs to be looked at in that respect because there has been I think a tendency just to churn through students as fee payers without thinking about the value of those students as future and call it assets for one of a better description to the nation and how we build alumni plans. Like has been done with the New Colombo Plan, the cohort of alumni and that connectivity that we have to have because if we don't do that, then the product that we're offering is going to be degraded. And in fact, I just saw not too long ago as a survey which suggested that students, when parents were asked internationally, where would you send your kids if they were going to university overseas? Australia used to be in the top three of those. It was US, UK, Australia. In 2021, Australia doesn't feature in that top three list anymore. Now part of that is because the borders are closed and we all understand why that is. But we're operating in a very, very competitive world and technology has also now added another dimension to that. And so I mentioned before that education was our fourth largest export. We can't take that for granted. It won't be our fourth largest export if we don't invest in it. And so that means making the experience on campus good for the students as well. Notice we're coming close to time. So Gabby, I might ask you maybe to share comments on Cam's second question. That was what's Australia's role in investing in secure jobs in ASEAN for returning students? I was happy to answer the first one. I got in first, Gabby. Well, look, I run a defence company. So security is incredibly important for my business. But that whole gig economy piece that is happening, again, that's something that's going to be, it's a disruptive change to how we do business. So we should be certainly investing as a nation into that secure networks, if you like. They give us that opportunity to work across borders. So yeah, I would say, I'm not sure if I've answered your question though. Did I? Yeah. Okay, that's good. Ray, did you have any final comments before? I think your third question, if I remember, was what can we do when overseas for the students who've gone back home? No, I'm sorry, you can't go overseas. Look, I'm not going to try and suggest we invent a new program. We all have to deal with the reality of our border policy. Very much like everyone else who's involved in engaging with the region, we just need to make sure we keep on peddling and we keep on engaging with the networks that we have and broadening them out. So like I know that where we have been able to travel, we've done that, but clearly not everyone can. So the online world has, I've seen some examples where we have been able to make genuine new connections with counterparts in the region. And everyone's waiting for the moment we can turn that into a face-to-face interaction. So Southeast Asia, much like the rest of Asia, prizes that kind of personal interaction. It might work in Europe or America, if we talk online, but if we can make that as a promise to our new networks in Southeast Asia that we are going to visit, we are going to meet them face-to-face when the time is ready, it holds enormous potential for us and it's a necessity Okay, thanks very much. I think suddenly that's all we have time for this evening. So like we've covered a fair bit of topic called content this evening, coming from how we can reform the Australian education system here and things we might need to be reconsidering and prioritising. But also how do we continue engaging with the region in an education sense, noting that the borders are closed. So thank you very much for joining us here today. For those of us here at the Diplomatic Academy, there is an opportunity for some networking and drinks afterwards that I'd really encourage you to stay and continue some of these conversations. The next Momentum series session is taking place on the 22nd of April in Sydney, and that one will focus on digital inclusion. So I encourage you all to keep an eye out for some ads for that. Thanks very much this evening. Thank you.