 Good morning, everyone. Welcome. Thank you for coming out to the CRED Auditorium for this special event. I'd also like to welcome everyone joining us on Zoom today. We'll begin with a land acknowledgement. The San Francisco Public Library acknowledges that we occupy the unceded ancestral homeland of the Ramatishloni peoples who are the original inhabitants of the San Francisco Peninsula. We recognize that we benefit from living and working on their traditional homeland. As uninvited guests, we affirm their sovereign rights as first peoples and wish to pay our respects to the ancestors, elders, and relatives of the Ramatishloni community. I'm so excited to be introducing today's program, Mount Tammelpais College Education and Community at San Quentin. With a screening of the film, the other side of the wall, and a panel discussion, we'll get an intimate look at the powerful work taking place inside the classrooms at San Quentin and how the work of the college and its students has a profound impact both within and beyond the walls of the prison. We also have a Q&A session following the panel. Please raise your hand if you have a question. We will come out with a microphone. I'd like to extend my gratitude to the staff of Mount Tammelpais College for their hard work in developing this program. Thank you as well to RJ Lazada for presenting his film today and to our panelists for generously sharing their time and experiences with us. Anthony Amans, Wayne Boatwright, Johnny Lamb, Cory McNeil, Lieutenant Samuel Robinson, and Jesse Vasquez. Thank you. I'd also like to thank my colleagues at the Western Edition Branch for their support during the planning of this event. And as always, thank you to the friends of the San Francisco Public Library whose support makes events like this possible. Finally, I'd like to welcome our moderator for the program, Erlon Woods. Erlon is the co-creator, co-host, and co-producer of Ear Hustle. In 1997, Woods was sentenced to 31 years to life in prison. While incarcerated, he received his GED, attended Coastline Community College, and completed many vocational programs. He also founded Choose One, which aims to repeal the California Three Strikes Law, the statute under which he was sentenced. In November 2018, then-California Governor Jerry Brown commuted Woods's sentence after 21 years of incarceration, and he became a full-time producer of Ear Hustle. His efforts with Choose One continue as he advocates for restorative justice and works to place a repeal initiative on the ballot. Thank you, Erlon. And thank y'all for coming out, and thank everyone that's on Zoom. In 1996, Oakland's Patton University helped launch the prison university project, now known as Mount Tama Pius College. In the year 2000, Jody Lohan, who's somewhere in here... Where? How you doing? Now president of Mount Tama Pius College had a vision, and in January of this year, Mount Tama Pius College was officially accredited by the Accrediting Commission for Community and Junior Colleges. Today, Mount Tama Pius College is highlighting how education is the foundation of building healthy communities. Today, we're about to view a film by RJ Lazada, who I will call up here so he can tell y'all a little about it. Thanks, Erlon. Thank you everyone for being here and joining today's event. This film, Other Side of the Wall, is a product of many months of hard work. I have to thank Molly Parent, who's my co-producer on this project, but especially Cory McNeil and James J.C. Cavitt. I think the only thing that really bears noting is that in a society where moderating and controlling image is... The rigor required needs to be elevated. I think this project does a lot for challenging contemporary representations in mainstream media, i.e. true crime genre. I think the film will help prime you for understanding the impression that prison leaves on a person's psyche but how they think about themselves and how education is kind of a salve, a space of respite, of growth. There's a lot you'll see here, but there's also a lot you won't see here. I'm hoping that that gap will be filled by the panelists, our illustrious panel, who have incredible and deep life experiences to speak further on what the film could not touch upon. Thank you. My incarceration of 26 years, I can't erase that, but what I can do is turn that bad situation of why I was incarcerated into something good, and that's how I see this role. Hey, what's going on? What's happening, man? I'm up. How's the job going on? How are you feeling about that? Nervous. Nervous why? You can train for it, you know. That's what you've been waiting for since you got out. It's good nerves though. Yeah, it's good nerves. I got you. I got you. You'll be all right. You have a good morning too. Thank you. I have been out for going on five years after serving a 22-year sentence that came into the system at 17, and the thought of me possibly dying in that system, it didn't sit well with me. It's the man that you really become friends with while inside that become family and a lifeline and motivation to keep going. Cory was all of these things to me. JC, I met him at that time, one of the most violent prisons that there was. All we kind of like had was each other and a couple of guys that were with us. Something about him, man, just came a magnet to me. He got that kind of personality. He was meant to do great things. I only been out a little over six months. I did not see myself being in this kind of role right here. When the job was offered to me, I even had self-dial. I got a call of people I don't know. I sat with it for a minute and it was like, you know what, this is probably a good opportunity to create more opportunity for people who are still behind the wall. We're talking to you, man. I'll definitely be in contact with any events or things like that. I dropped out of school when I was in the 7th grade. Didn't go back until I was incarcerated at the age of 25. And that's when I heard about a MTC or DECDMS called Prison University. And worked my way all the way up until I graduated. That feeling was like the best feelings of my life at that time. Cory McNeil. So I'm going to go back to school. I'm currently completing my graduate program at the California State University of Long Beach with a master's in social work. The next step is working towards my doctorate as a marriage and family therapist. All of this training, all of this education, a huge part of it is so that I can assist folks with reintegration upon release when they're coming back into the community. So let's just do a brief check-in. How y'all feeling? How are the semesters going? I never knew that the pace would be this intense. And community college? Participating in a lot of self-help activities while incarcerated was the way that I started to take down the barricade that I hid behind and kept others out. I had to dismantle that. When we start to be vulnerable with one another and really speak about our guilt, our hurt, our shame, our pain, it has a way of bonding people even closer together. When men take that brave step, I think a great amount of healing can happen. If I had any kind of words to describe what J.C. means to me, they would fall short. We had life sentences. At that time, nobody was getting out of prison with a life sentence. When he left, that was real hard. He was like the first person I cried about that left prison. He cried too. I can't wait to see that guy. When I sat in court, some days I look at it and be like, I wonder what the guys are doing right now at this time. Other times, I pitch myself and be like, wow, I am out of there. What happened there could always be like a part of my life that I'll be connected to because of some of the best friends I've met in my life I've met right there. What you ever have thought? We spent so much time over there looking out this way that now we're here looking back the other way. Oh, my goodness. Good to see you, brother. You too, man. You too, man. Oh, man, it's been some years, huh? Look how far we come. We're looking at it this side now. Yep, yep. That's what I was saying. Amazing. How long ago? How many years was he there? 11 out of my 26 years. 11? He was 12 out of my 22. The hardest part was I didn't know if I was ever going to see you again. Yeah. To leave you behind, knowing that you deserved the same opportunity. Yeah. And it's a lot of them brothers that I love and they're still there. I don't know if I'm going to see again. The community that I was involved in was in education. It was the insulation from prison and escape and an encouragement. The two things that people always tell you when you parole, don't come back and make us proud. For most of us, I think, to come home just coming home and not going back is enough to make people proud. Right? Yeah. But for others of us, that's not enough. We want to do something to change the system to make it better. We here, right? Because other people was here. Yep. And they gave us a blueprint. And so we got to pass that on. I am packing up, man. I'm finally getting to go to my own place. You know, every part of my fiber of my being says, yeah, I'm ready that I can do this, but there's always this little sense of nervousness. It feels like one closer step to fully integration into society of having my own place to lay my head there and say that it's mine. Yes, yes, yes. I hope y'all enjoyed that. Since we lost a little time, let me introduce these guys to have them come up to the stage, which is Cory McNeil, Jesse Vazquez, Anthony Ammons, Johnny Lam, Wayne Boatwright, and Samuel Robertson. I know we all on stage and all that, but I would definitely love this to be one of those conversations like in the education area, in the media center. Without all the expletives, though. Y'all good with that? Do y'all anybody want to make a comment on what y'all just seen? I know you was in it, Cory. Anything you want to take away from this video? Hello? Yeah, thank you all for coming here. I believe this film shows how impactful education can be. Erlan alluded to many of us, all of us on this panel. If we weren't in the class, we were on campus around the class. And we spent weeks, days, months, and years trying to learn how much skills for this moment right here. But it also shows the impact of education has on us as individuals, but also the people in our lives and the community that we reach as we parole. Indeed. Anybody else? All right, so I definitely get into this, and it's another one I have for you, Cory, and that you were in this. You are the Alumni Affairs Assistant. And I just want to know how you were able to meet that challenge in that new position, and how important is it in making that connection to deal with other individuals in similar situations? Good question. Yeah, so definitely like I said in the film, there's some self doubt. But what education does for me and what I believe that it does for others, it makes you realize that it's more than about yourself. It's other people that you connected to. Like I say, all of these are my friends up here including you, and we have other friends that we've met. That we've met. Yeah, that we have in there, right? And so this job, it helps me to like people help me. That's why and I want to help other people. So the importance of this job, I feel, is that a lot of us who have been incarcerated for like decades, the world has changed immensely. And people need help in getting out in terms of relocating in terms of navigating food assistance, in terms of navigating housing. But also, it's that emotional impact that being in prison has, emotional and psychological impact that prison has on you. And so sometimes it's just about listening to people about their fears or what they're going to and then understanding like, hey, you're not alone. I went through that too. So that's why I feel this job is important. Definitely. Jesse Vazquez, I have to ask you this, man. You're like, what? You don't have any kind of worms. No, definitely. So Jesse, like all these individuals, a great dude and he came to sound Quentin from other prisons and in his lifestyle, which I'll let him talk about, race was a factor in prisons, you know, being gang affiliated and all that. So I just want to know how was you able to get past those obstacles to create community inside of education or prison environment? Thank you, Erlan. So I think one of the things about California prisons that's unique is the same cultural divisions and race divisions that lend, you know, some structure and discipline also create a lot of division and decisiveness. When I got to saying Quinn, it was like the culture there was a little bit different. It was like a college campus. There was a lot of rehabilitative programs and the divide was different than at other prisons. Other prisons were about gang and race. Over at San Quentin, it was more about who's programming and who's not. Who's about rehabilitation and who isn't. And it was in that environment that my mindset was actually challenged. It wasn't so much that I fit in like the first day I was there, I felt awkward. I felt like a fish out of water, you know. It was like a completely different twist to what I was used to after 17 years of the prison system and the racist and gang segregated environment, it was a culture shock to me. But I think the college programs and all the programs that I attended that gave me information and knowledge that challenged those beliefs were actually what led to my personal growth getting out of those prejudice. So what ended up as my prison life developing these prejudice, all of a sudden I had these challenges in academia that all of a sudden I saw new insights and those insights led to personal growth. So I think education led to my rehabilitation or contributed significantly to it. And then the community that I built, it was built around a lot of division. I got friends and brothers that are on the polar opposite of politics and philosophy and personal life choices and stuff, but we got along because we found common ground. Education was our common cause, personal growth was our goal and all of a sudden, like, you know, it didn't matter about gang and race, it mattered about, like, hey, can you improve me? And a lot of the growth that I developed was people who had opposing views. Because I don't need somebody to just regurgitate what I just told them. I need somebody to challenge me and that's what it did. That's what Tseng Quynh did for me. And let me ask you this, what role do you think volunteers in the prison as far as the community, what role do you think they have in prison, volunteers? You know, I think at Tseng Quynh that was, like, one of the best things about Tseng Quynh and also one of the most dangerous, right, because I felt, like, awkward shaking hands with a free person. I call them street people, right, just because they're from the streets. Not because they live on the streets, they're just from the streets, right? So I got to remember where in San Francisco, so I got to, you know, the streets term, right? But the folks that would come in, it was, like, literally, not just eye-opening, right, but it also was an encouragement that here are these individuals who actually care about building community. It wasn't just about, like, hey, what can I teach you and tell you? It was about how can I meet you where you're at and help you grow. So Tseng Quynh not only has, like, the best programs, but I think a lot of the impact has been and that exposure to, like, free people that helps you with pro-socialization. I mean, I believe that I'm a better speaker, a better human being, a more compassionate, empathetic individual because I'm able to mimic a lot of what I've learned from the people that were coming into the prison and teaching us while we were there. So it plays a significant role in, like, how we grow as individuals to have that pro-social development with, you know, the opposite genders and opposing views and everything like that and being challenged by the community to live as a community. And just curious, for anyone up here, is it hard to walk away from a community that you used to and just deal with your life and deal with you? And that's to anybody. I say every day it was hard to walk away from all I knew was gangs, that was my lifestyle, and to make a decision to stand on my own and to find a new community because I felt like an outcast, I felt low self-esteem and low self-worth. So for me to find a community that helped build my self-worth, especially going to prison as a juvenile makes a huge difference. Right, and Anthony was serving 105 years in prison, huh? Don't get me more than what I had. 102 years, I apologize for the extra three. No extra time. No extra time, man. Don't give me three extra years, it ain't worth it. He's been out doing successful things working at the Attorney General's office and congratulations to you, man. And I know he was answering that, but was it hard to find a community outside of the community that he was making all those decisions from the gang life? Yeah, because when I made a decision to join a gang, I made a decision to join a gang because I wanted to be seen, heard and because my self-worth was very low. I didn't believe in myself and didn't have confidence in myself. So gangs gave me the actions of the words I couldn't say. Right, because I was so angry I wanted to lash out, but I didn't, the education of feelings. So once I got to prison and I started understanding feelings behind it, I was able to verbalize what I felt, which made it easier and now I connect with people that cannot only verbalize what they say, but not how they feel, but they can also, I connect with them in a way of moving forward in a positive way instead of harming my community. Indeed. And Samuel Robinson, it's hard to not say Lieutenant Robinson. It's hard to not say Captain Robinson. That's how he went out. As someone who had a college degree before you walked into the job of a correctional officer, how important, and that degree was in engineering, correct? Correct. Indeed. How important do you think it is for incarcerated people to have access to higher education? I'll tell you, I was sitting here and I was thinking of a question that you presented into Corey, right, about the impact of education. And I'll tell you, I remember being a brand new cop in the prison working in some of the confinement or the restricted housing units. You would, I was always an officer that tried to connect with the people I worked with on the tier, right? And I would have these conversations with people. And I think many times you can look at a man and you can have just a small conversation about what their aspirations are, about what they want to do, about how they want to change their lives, right? However, if there is no pathway there, you know, there's just a desire of a no pathway to get you there. The man never gets there. And so, I think what I know that what I have saw in my career, especially with Mount Tam and all of the volunteers that come to San Quentin is a guy begins with this ideal of wanting to do something different. But you got to have somebody walk you down that path. And these are the folks that help walk people down the path. And the path is to enlightenment. And whatever that is, whether it's the skill set, whether it's changing your values, whether it's learning to be more articulate, right? Becoming who your true self is, it's really, really hard to pull yourself up by the bootstraps. You need help. And that's what it is. It's the values. It's the people that come in. It's what comes to you that helps you grow and become a better person. So yeah, education and just however it's delivered, however it gets there, it's hard to do it yourself. It's the greater good that makes it valuable, that changes folks' lives. Indeed. And you've been... Thank you. And you've been in Norway a few times and for officers that work in their correctional facilities, they have to do like maybe two years of education or get this equivalent of an AA. Is that something that should be implemented in California and do you think it would assist in the overall rehabilitation? I'll tell you this. I think education, no matter how you get there, are a more educated person in a job environment, in a skill set, in a profession is something that's aspirational, right? It benefits everybody that's there. And so yes, it would benefit the California Department of Corrections to have more... When I went to the academy, it was six weeks. It was six weeks. They say you do these things, you go to the prison, you are an officer and you figure it out, right? Six weeks. You figure out this whole world, six weeks. You need more than that, right? And they have evolved. I think now it's like 13 weeks, right? But in the grand scheme of things, the difference between 13 weeks and two years of what the Norway model is, there's a huge disparity there. And so a correctional officer in Norway, they go in with a different set of values, right? They go in with an ideal that it's not us against them. They go in with an ideal that these people are in our community. And we got to prepare them to return to our community. And so from the beginning, the values that they're taught are different than what you experience and what I experience here in the state of California. And I do know there are some initiatives here in the state of California to evolve what the value structure is. And that will be beneficial. We just have to get there. Indeed. Thank you for that. And Mr. Boatwright, how you doing? That's pretty good, man. Mr. Boatwright, we're the only two people up here with hair. You stole my line, man. You stole my line. Because I was going to say the biggest difference between everybody on this stage is the fact that I still got a full head of hair and these guys are bald and this fucking billion of bald. Do we ask the question, is that yours? Is that your hair? I'm just checking, man. I'm just checking. Mr. Boatwright was my conservative friend in prison. If I ever wanted to see the other side views, I'd go to Boatwright and he'd tell me everything. So the question I have for you is what impact does your political ideologies have on building communities with other students who philosophies may differ? May differ? May. May differ? May differ. A little bit. Well, first of all, I appreciate you saying conservative, but I consider myself a considerate person more than a conservative person is the way I look at it. But my views would definitely be considered conservative by everybody we knew in prison, even more the volunteers. I'll be honest with you. I meant that sincerely when I said that the biggest difference between us on this stage is that I still got a full head of hair and they're all bald. I know people don't like to hear that, but I believe in a color blind America. I believe in a meritocracy where people can get the tools they need to succeed, but they got to work at it. It can't be given to them ever. You never give anybody anything. They need to earn it for their own worth. So those are values that I believe very strongly about. And one of the best ways somebody can do that is gaining an education. Now, I was lucky enough, like Lieutenant Captain, you made Captain too? Damn! Captain Robinson, I had an education before I committed my crime and took a life and went to prison. But I was invited to join MTC. Amy, who I don't see in the crowd today, I was going to take some time off because they were giving credit for people to do semesters there and I felt guilty getting credit when these guys all needed it. She said, I don't care if you've had an education, we want you there. You're part of our community, Wayne. And that meant a lot to me. And I took that very seriously inside. I tried to be a good role model in class. I tried to learn as much as I could. I tried to help others. And those values are something I think I've always had. But what was different was there was a whole community, there was a whole side of America I knew nothing about. I'd never really seen. I grew up in LA. If I went through Watts or South Central, I just rolled up my windows and turned up my music. I didn't talk to anybody. I didn't see anybody. But I hadn't interacted with. And I got the chance to, as Jesse said, sit there and be together for all of us to sit there and get to know each other, hear each other's opinions, go ahead and have a different one about things, but hear each other out to try to understand what you think about the world and get ready to go back. That was the main thing. We were all destroyers in our own way. And we need to become builders, not destroyers. And that's what this education gives us, a chance to become builders. Indeed. I got to change it to my considerate friend instead of conservative friend. Did you say considerate? Okay, considerate. My considerate partner. Consider lunch on him. Just saying. John Lam. John Lam was almost an hour late. John Lam was almost an hour late. Is that what they told you? That's what Anthony told me. I was going on a carpool lane. I was like, oh man, it's the weekend. Maybe I can go through without getting penalized. I got here, he had a smile on his face. Like, hey, happy to see you. With 40 minutes left. Yeah, 40 minutes left. I appreciate that. So John Lam is currently a student at one of the most prestigious universities where I where I had the pleasure of delivering the 2020 J school commencement address. And I want to know, how did attending school as an incarcerated person at Mount Tama Pies College help you transition to being a successful student at UC Berkeley? Yeah, that's a really great question. And I largely attributed to the quality education that uses us. Oftentimes, I don't think that comes to people's mind is that present education is equivalent of a prestigious education in UC Berkeley. But I think it really attributes to the work of Jody Lewin and the work of Mount Tama Pies and his staff to bring in quality individuals to teach us. I remember one of the teachers would say to us, I think it was like an English class. They would say, hey, you guys work harder and that in my mind like kind of planned to see like, oh man, like, is it true? Like I had self doubt, right? Like, oh, maybe he's just saying this just to make us feel good about ourselves. Well, I can honestly say that what he said is true. Like people in prison really do work hard as much as people in Berkeley, if not more so. And I think that, you know, the education that we got in Mount Town is just as good as Berkeley. They accepted the credit from Mount Stamps the validation that the education that they provide for students inside is transferable to the real world. And I just wanted to say like, you know, like when I was going through my process again, UC Berkeley Corey helped me out tremendously and I think the staff at Mount Tama helped me out tremendously because it was like credit is that I needed like a like a syllabus basically to attest to whether my math class or my English class is transferable to Berkeley and they went and dug into the archives to get me classes up to five years prior. And so, I mean the amount of dedication and support that Mount Tama has provided me has been tremendous. Even when I got accepted they provided me with a $10,000 scholarship thanks to the scholarship. I no longer have to worry about my tuition, how do I pay for it and am able to focus on my education. I mean, this is the kind of stuff that we don't hear about. A prison college is providing scholarship for its alumni to continue their education. That's unbelievable. Definitely. And I was going to ask outside of Berkeley being co-ed what are some of the similarities and differences between both programs? Yeah, I mean I think what really, really did provide me was a really high quality English math. Those are critical thinking skills that they help cultivate in us as students. And I think another thing that I found extremely invaluable is that they cultivate this culture of asking for help. They check in with us. I think every quarter PUP staff would check in with us to do like a goal mapping. And so it normalizes this behavior of just understanding that it's okay to ask for help, that they're there to support you. These are the support system that I emulate as well as UC Berkeley. And I just want to say Jody has so much connection and resources at Mount TAM that now I'm in Berkeley. I meet professors. They're like, oh my god you were a part of Mount TAM? Like I volunteer there. And these are like world-class professors that they're just superstars on campus. But these are the individuals that go in and teach, incarcerate the students. So I mean, much applause to Jody Lewin and Mount TAM for all the work that they've done. And I just want to give a special shout out. Not just from school, but like when I started my nonprofit, Jody also extended her mentorship. Opened the door to her development team. It's just a full service support. Anything you want to do as an alumni of Mount TAM, she got it. And I just really want to give a big shout out and a deep appreciation. I wouldn't be at UC Berkeley without the education from Mount TAM. That's no doubt about it. Indeed. So this question is for anybody. Should there be a Mount Tama Paws college at every prison in California? Because it's not. I think other ones deal with proctors and stuff like that. Why shouldn't it be? I always say for us, how I got to Mount TAM was through the basketball team. So we were the unofficial basketball team of Mount TAM, right? San Quentin Warriors, right? And we only played all home games. But I think the support that Mount TAM gives us, like them walking up, the professors walking across the basketball court, how y'all doing? What's going on? Some of them even took shots. You know what I mean? A basketball shot. So that helped me feel more comfortable. Let me go see what's going on inside the classroom. Even though I stayed in math for like four years, I hate math, by the way. But it was worth it because it helped build my confidence. So I think every person in prison should have the opportunity to go to Mount TAM, yeah. Indeed. And Bo right. Was you in CDCR when it was just CDC? When I was, was I what? Were you in the prison when it was just the California Department of Corrections? Yeah. How has it been since they added to R? Yeah, yeah. How has it been since they added to R? Good question. I'd like to stick with this idea of education, though, if you don't mind. That's part of the rehabilitation. You know, I it's not as easy as it sounds. Because what you haven't heard from everybody up here, as these guys sought out Mount TAM, was volunteered to spend their time and go to school. And unfortunately, there's a hell of a lot of guys in prison who wouldn't even think of spending their time that way. They'd rather just sit around in my opinion. So the uniqueness of this group up here as role models to show that you can get an education, but you've got to look for it. You've got to work for it. Is it that easy, though? It's easy. You've got to get San Quentin because you've still got to go through the processes, but for other prisons that don't have that type of access. That's the heartbreaking part, right? Is that we were San Quentin is kind of like the Silicon Valley of education and criminal justice reform. If you want to think of it that way. Tons of different organizations you can go to, groups that you can participate in, run by volunteers who aren't getting paid, who come in to help you. I just don't know how we could do it unless we did it electronically. We have to take advantage of technology because there aren't that many volunteers to go to these other places. There aren't that many volunteers that can staff colleges and other prisons. I just got to be honest with you about it. That's being conscientious because I don't want people to believe they could do something and lie to them. We've got to find a way to allow for technology to leverage what we've got at San Quentin at these other prisons. Unfortunately, the CDCR is not well, I used to think it was just incompetent to be honest with you in the way they did stuff but I think it's more than that. There's a mindset that has to be broken at the CDCR that these guys are all the same person they were when they committed their crime at maybe 17 years old for Heaven 6. They don't understand that these men have changed. They've become responsible and the CDCR needs to understand that and give these guys an opportunity to get that education at these other prisons. Because as I understood it, a lot of guys were hustling to try to get to San Quentin just because of those groups, the ones who wanted to change their lives and I think anybody who wants to take advantage of that we need to provide it for them. That's a responsibility we have and that's probably one of the greatest failings of the CDCR, in my opinion. So, basically, CDCR should have Mount Tama Pies everywhere. You said it shouldn't be like separate, like people on their own bringing this college in. Well, CDCR is supposed to include the word rehabilitation and in my opinion they're merely about incarceration right now and so I don't know how you change that mindset in the organization. Not just the mandate politically, not just the resources, it's a mindset they have, that these guys are still the gang bangers they were. There's no respect that these guys can change, there's no expectation that they'll change and so they're not even thinking about giving them an opportunity to change. That's what the CDCR has to do and that takes us as citizens, as voters to get involved because if we don't, they're just going to keep doing it the way they do it and that's just housing guys for decades. I mean, I don't know the total number of years we all spent here, I know a lot of guys got really long sentences but it's insane that people are spending, I know a guy who spent 38 years in prison and he was found suitable at 20, got denied by the governor, had to spend another 18 years in prison. It's insane. Anyone else feel something about that? I'll chime in real quick because Wayne got a lot of opinions. Andy, I got my own too. So I'll say this about rehabilitation. It's a choice. Everybody gets to choose whether they want to improve their themselves and yes, access should be one of the responsibilities that the state provides, right? But one question that my brother always tells me, he says, dude, imagine if you would have taken advantage of education before you went to prison. Let's just not excuse the fact that we all had an opportunity to get an education before prison, but we didn't. So there's this thing where we always want to blame the state for our lack of responsibility and you can't always be the scapegoat in everything, right? You can't always play the victim card. I don't approve of that stuff, right? This message that Lieutenant Robinson would say. Every blue moon. Solely because, right? It robs you of your autonomy, right? Education and Mount Tam give you that sense of identity and purpose, right? And accessibility is important, but what tends to happen, right? If you expand the program way too fast, you have to water down the quality. And that's the danger, right? 3% of the prison population is at San Quentin. There's about 100,000 incarcerated people, right? We're talking about 97,000 and 96,000 at every other institution. If you try and give the same type of program to everybody, you have to dumb down the quality. And then you don't make it to where it's like, hey, you have to make an incentive. You have to make an effort. You have to, like, go there, right? I'm not saying everything has to be by merit, but I've seen too many people. I'll tell you a quick and adult story by the guy that I know. The next door neighbor at Calipatris State Prison, been in 26 years, went to the board for the first time after 25 years. He came back pissed off angry, talking about he's going to sue the state, because the board, the parole board asked him, like, dude, you've been in prison 25 years, what have you done with your time? He worked out, played dominoes, played handball, and he was a great basketball player on a level 4 prison. And then they said, well, you don't even have a GED. You don't even have a GED. You don't care to parole into society. You're going to, like, literally recidivate because you have no education. You have no coping skills. You have no life skills. And he came back pissed off and he told me, Jess, you know, they got it all wrong, man, because in the Constitution, it says, you know, they didn't send me to a GED. They sent me to 25 to life. I gave them 26. And it's like, dude, you don't get it. Like, there's expectations, right, to make sure that you're going to be a law-abiding citizen, that you're going to be able to support yourself. Let's say that, for instance, he went in for prison for robbery. It was a robbery murder, right? Even if it was motivated by poverty. Let's just follow that train of thought, right? If it was motivated by poverty, guess what? I want you to have some life skills and some vocational training so that you don't have to rob anymore. And if you never took advantage of that, right, whose responsibility is that? Do we ding the state? Why did the opportunity, the state, you know, set up the welding classes, the construction classes, education classes, and he didn't take advantage of it? Like, there comes a time when we have to just say, you know what? Like, everybody is individually responsible for their own personal growth and choices. And yes, we should make it accessible to everybody, but that's not a law that should go into effect. That's one of those things that it's a privilege to attend a college. Not everybody gets accepted into Berkeley. Not for nobody, or me. Same thing for Mount Am, right? Like, I expect a quality education because that's what not only should they expect more from me as an incarcerated individual, but also, like, there's a society and there's a foundation and there's donors and there's a lot of people that expect a lot, you know, out of these programs. And I wouldn't want to see it dumbed down. That's my opinion. And I'll tell you, if I could follow up, because I consider myself a considerate person as well, right? I consider much on YouTube. Definitely considerate. But I will tell you, Wade, I think you're wrong that people in CDCR don't recognize, right? Because I'm sitting around, guys who are examples of what CDCR recognizes, that CDCR recognizes the ability for a person to change, for a person to grow, for a person to evolve from the point that they were when they committed their crime and in prison. Their examples right here, their examples out here in the audience that I see, that I know have changed their lives. And they've changed their lives because of the resources that the department have allowed to land within their walls of their prison. County jails are a lot different, right? I've visited San Francisco County Jail and I was amazed at just kind of what people go through and how much more inclusive and open San Quentin is relative to having volunteers come inside. And we're talking about San Francisco. Forward thinking, liberal enclave, right? Much more stringent, much more prone to keep volunteers and programs out as opposed to what we are in San Quentin state prison. And why? Because there's leadership, there are people on the ground who recognize how important it is to return people to the community better than they were when they arrived. And there are examples that I'm sending to right now. There are people, there are guys up here 100 years. 45? We can go down the line, right? And these guys didn't do all that time. They worked hard, they took advantage of the opportunities, they changed their lives and they're here sitting up here right next to me today and we're having a conversation and there are many of them maybe even more articulate than I. That works. I appreciate that. And I think you are an example of what does work in the CDCR. I got one simple question for you. I know that you personally have gone out of your way to write letters for guys to the parole board when they're seeking suitability. How many of your fellow CDCR officers do you think have written a letter? That's the question I have for you. So I'll tell you because there's a guy right here. There's a couple guys I've written letters for that are right up here, right? I will tell you that and this guy right here when I wrote him his letter and I gave it to him, what did I tell you? I told him, I said, man, I said we are attached to the hip. It is you and I. The wheels fall off. I'm extending my credibility, right? I'm extending all of these things that people believe and trust as a correctional professional that I have insight into that I'm able to look at this guy and look at how he's programmed and say, hey look, I'm reaching out and saying I certify this guy. I certify this guy. And so that's a high bar and it is a challenge. It is a challenge for people to extend themselves that way, right? And so I was brave enough to do that, right? And there are others that I know that are brave enough to do that. It's not a lot of them, I'll give you that. But there are people that are brave enough to do that. And Sam Robinson ran pretty much the media center. What's the recidivism rate of the media center? Mount Am Mount Am is pretty good. But there's a program inside saying quit that beats Mount Am is zero percent. Guys who are in the media center, don't come back to prison. Indeed. And I would only say Mount Am probably have about 300 more people to look over. They have a larger group, that's right, I'll give them that. And we wind it down here. Anything else anybody want to say? Mr. Lam, you race to get here? You know, I raced to get here because I knew that it was important to showcase the dedication that Mount Am has invested in us. And I think that I stand as just one example out of many individuals who have gone through the program that has tremendously benefited from the program and continue to thrive in the community because of what we learned inside of prison. And I think that, you know, to your question, and also to Sam's question, it's like when you provide people with the resources, they're apt to take advantage of it. We're in a deprived situation in prison, you don't really get much. And so when you're given one slimmer of hope or one one bright light, you're going to gravitate towards it. And I think that is a prime opportunity to invest in individuals in prison, give them the life skills to thrive in the community and find a way to do it and to provide a holistic, critical thinking skills for them to thrive out here. And if there was opportunity to expand Mount Am or similar programs to other prison, I think that would be really, really wonderful. I think that's the mission. We're going to get it done today, right? I mean, it's on y'all to reach out to them people and say we need one of colleges in all our prisons because it's definitely a great model. And then we can go into the questions if y'all would like. If anyone have a question for any of these gentlemen on stage. Oh, we got some more. I knew Rafael was, we need to be, this man asks questions. Somebody get a piece of paper. He drove from Sacramento to ask this question. Oh, he drove from Sacramento to ask this question. Well, actually the question just came to me. He's like, let me get the mic. Give me the mic. Let me get the mic up. Never give the, all right. You know, it's wonderful to see everyone here, supporters, everyone airline, here, hustle. I'm so grateful for everything that everyone is doing. But here's the thing that I see. When I was in the thick of the prison system and I did not see my way out, it felt like I was in a ditch. And there was nothing to get me out. When I was in the hole, there was nobody there, no groups, no volunteers. And what I found was the treasure of reading, reading books. You know, they called bibliotherapy. So I want to ask you guys, as you are now out, and what are you doing to continue the spirit of bibliotherapy? Not only for yourself, but for those that are around. What are you doing? How do you find that to be a value in your life today? What bibliotherapy mean again? I'm going to be honest with you. I don't know what that means, bro. But no, I'll say for me what I'm doing is being conscious of the space I'm in. And the people I'm around, like, I work in science. So I'm being conscious to allow them to be aware of the other side and showing them books and educational things that we've done in San Quentin. So that they can be aware like it's some good men in prison. It's some good men that need to be out here. So I think that's my way of showing the words you said. Bibliotherapy. I'll add to it that every week in Berkeley we get a bibliotherapy of 300 pages assignment. I never looked at it as a therapy. It's pretty tormenting. So one of the themes that picking up on as you guys are talking is meeting. And I feel like it's really hard to do that because there takes a lot of empathy and really not overdoing it in a way where you're like making it worse. And so I think story to tell and hearing the story is like such a great antidote for that. So I'm sure like a great way to help shift the narrative around a lot of these issues and stories. And so my question for you is how do you help people find their voice and to have the courage to share because I think that is like one of the most powerful things we can do. So that's for anyone. So what I learned at Ear Hustle is just put a mic in front of people. Seriously, like especially like I would say at San Quentin when I was there it was more of a lot of individuals that had served a lot of time that understood their triggers, understood everything about them, understood all that stuff. So when you sit down and talk to individuals that's very transparent about their life and their experiences, they end up just delving into conversations that surprise most people. But definitely empathy is one of those things and I believe that's what we do at Ear Hustle is try to bring that. So individuals that may not have any connection to prison can hear a story and find themselves connected in some ways. Just as a plug for another organization one of the best ways that I've found was the San Quentin news within the San Quentin prison and it does it at many levels. First of all it does what's called a journalism guild where it attempts to teach these men from the very beginning how they can write an article at every level how to learn the language, the grammar the structure mainly from retired reporters. So this is real stuff from real people that help them do that. We publish between 60 to 80. I say we because I'm still the web manager of the San Quentin news. So we publish 60 to 80 articles every month. So that's where these men have a chance. It's not just knowing your own voice you need to express it. That's an opportunity that I've found to be very effective to allow a much greater range of voices to be heard on a monthly basis as the San Quentin news. Definitely. And I'll chime in one, just one idea. San Quentin was one of those places where if you just stand too close to somebody for a long time in the canteen land, they start spilling the beans. Like seriously. Like San Quentin is like one of those places where they're incarcerated like they just freely give up information, right? It was scary in that way. It was also a good thing, right? I recognize the fact that it was like a culture of creating a safe space where people understood like, hey, we're all in this together, right? And when I got into the classroom with Mount Talampaias College Amy Jam Goshen who happens to be like the academic director or some big title now, right? She like moved up in the world at Mount Talampaias College, right? But she challenged me on this thing called like, I had cognitive dissonance, right? Like I could think that I could hurt somebody and still be a good person. Like there was no problem with that, right? Like there was no conflict, right? Because I lived in two worlds, right? And I could justify myself. And it wasn't until she taught me about that theory, right? Of how I can live in this dual world that I started seeing like I can't do that if I want to be authentic. You know, you can't have two worlds, right? And it was that safe space that she created that eventually I was able to replicate with other people, you know, with former gang members and people that were still in prison politics and stuff like that. So I think it's not just like, what are the tools? You know, but how do we create that space where people feel comfortable enough, you know, or awkward enough to like, hey, I got to talk to you because I'm feeling awkward or uncomfortable. So that was like one of the things that sank when that helped a lot. If I can chime in just for a second. I think it's about values as well, right? And so when Ares brought birth to San Quentin News again after 20 years of being non-functioning he emphasized that he didn't want it to be the Warden newspaper. He didn't want it to be the staff's newspaper. He wanted to be the voice of the man inside for them to tell their stories through their own perspective. And that value permeated throughout the media center. And so, ear hustle. It's not the Warden's voice. It's the voice of the man inside. Anything that comes out of the media center. It's not us. It's the organization. It's the voice of the folks that are inside. And so it creates that safe space, right? It creates that safe space for people to be able to authentically be themselves and to tell the world through the lens that they see it. And I think that's important. Sometimes bureaucracy gets in the way, right? And so we remove the bureaucracy and say it's yours handle it. And you have what you have. Yes? Hold on. I think it's something as profound as everything that is kind of out of what I'm hearing. I came here with my daughter just off the plane. I had no idea where I was going. She said, we're going to go watch a film. And we're running with the couple. I said, just need a couple. What's this film about? And it's a friend of a friend. And I'm like, what is going on? You're talking about trying to help those that are still incarcerated. Get the stories out. I probably look like I have nothing in common with you, but I've like ran up here. I said, let's sit in front. Because I am learning so much. Oh, I'm sorry. I'm learning so much from all of you. And how wise you are at the education. Wonderful. But the wisdom and how much I can learn, others can learn from you just sharing who you are. I was trying to record things that were coming out of your mouth. And I just I hope you never question your worthiness and just being who you are and you have so much to share those that are incarcerated but for even those that are not or don't have anyone that I know maybe that is incarcerated just who you are. It's like, I want to hear more and just connect to all of you. All of you. So that's all I wanted to say. I was going to say you definitely have an archive of San Quentin News stories to catch up on. And about 80 some Ear Hustle stories. It is online at www.SanQuentinNews.org We got forward this videos if you want to watch those too. I think we had a question in the back. Jody. Huh? Over here. Okay. Hey guys, I was wondering if anybody has examples of just the perseverance and grit to complete projects and deadlines and do something above and beyond in a system as some of you have said where you could sit around and you could play basketball and what it took to complete these sort of projects that really challenge you on all sorts of skill levels and intellect. I want to add that, I mean like to question I think one of the most valuable skills college taught us because I was in there in my life since then and I think like being incarcerated in certain institution you being in your cell like 23 24 hours a day. But I think college really does provide you a certain sense of regiment that you can start learning in terms of time management because you have deadlines like midterms you have quizzes due, you have to study for your finals. That kind of gives you a sense of routine. So that's one of the most valuable skill that I've learned from college and I continue to do out here when I go to school full time I'm starting a non-profit organization but all those things like I've attribute my time management to school it taught me that, it sincerely did. I want to ask some of y'all which one of y'all started job papers on a day they would do? Huh? I mean never happened. Hello Jody. Hello, all sorts of different projects and different types of work some of it's your day job, some of it you're doing it on the side but I wonder if you might think for a second about a project of any size that you're working on right now that you might be willing to share because I know for example John's just mentioning his passing, he's starting a nonprofit it's an amazing project. I know each of you actually is working on incredible stuff I wonder if you'd be willing to just go through and just share a little bit more detail even just in a sentence about a project close to your heart right now. Yeah, so I started a nonprofit organization UC Berkeley called CreateInnovations.org so essentially what we're trying to do is to provide supportive housing for marginalized folks who come into higher education. One of the things that often times people don't think about at a place such as UC Berkeley is people being homeless. But we have populations of students who are marginalized coming from incarcerated background former foster youths are living in the cars or couch surfing in the roommates. There was housing for students last year for example over 8,000 students were accepted transfer students but only 800 secured campus housing and the rest was pushed into the private market and a single room around Berkeley is about $2,700 so I mean think about it as a person who's formerly incarcerated coming out, coming into a higher education don't have a full-time job how are they going to pay for college so we're trying to provide a solution to that and so me and my friends who are also formerly incarcerated had created a nonprofit called CreateInnovations we started running our financial literacy course so we're really trying to provide all those apparatuses like all the relationship that we have built up in the campus we want to leave that behind, we want to leave a legacy because ultimately when I leave that campus people are going to come in, they're going to have to build all that stuff up from the ground so one of the most important things about being successful in a higher education environment is having the right mentorship and so that's what our organization is aiming to do you can go check us out on our website and look forward to connecting with you guys if you guys are looking forward to connecting provide a mentorship et cetera so thank you anyone else so I work in Attorney General's office for the care team which is community engagement team Attorney General Rob Bonta created it about as soon as he got put into office he wants to change the way the community views the office so we had our first reentry roundtable with him in San Francisco day before yesterday and that's like the first time that's been done that you got people, that you got Attorney General caring about folks coming out of prison so we're having these roundtables and I'm a special projects coordinator so we're creating these tables as the community has to say because it's important to have incarcerated voices at these tables you can't talk about reentry without us being at the table because they, a lot of people that own reentry homes have not pro before so they don't know what it's like to come out of prison so we're working on that I'm working on that in housing and some other things with the AG's office and I shall chime in real quick so friends of San Cui News that's who I work for now, we're rebranding and our project is to create everything that we have at the media center the newspaper and then also the video crew forward this and some of the other programs that we have create a playbook so that we can expand it into other prisons and other states to offer up not just the training but the platform and also the space for people to learn these techniques and develop some job training because for us I believe that changing semantics, what you call me formerly incarcerated, failing convict doesn't really matter to me if you don't change your perspective on how you see me so we're about changing systemic issues and the only way we can do that is by helping create a cultural shift by informing society of who's incarcerated so we believe that replicating the media centers that we have at San Quentin is going to be instrumental in helping us drive that change and I can say outside of the podcast that I do here, so one of the missions that I've been on is to end California Three Strikes Law and last year we tried to do it just with volunteers to get signatures and what we were able to do we weren't able to get the signatures but we were able to collect a lot of data and a lot of it is some of the stuff that we do best which is storytelling we didn't do during the campaign so to address some of the things that you said it was more we have a campaign called Faces of Three Strikes so now we're about to tell the stories of the people to educate people because most people thought the Three Strikes Law was taken out in 2012 through an initiative but it wasn't, it's still there so that's the mission that I'm on outside of what I do on a daily and so I work for Mount Tama Pais College Gratch as their first ever Alumni Affairs Associate and so one of the projects that I'm working on is to get guys greater to get the thinking in greater detail about life out of prison and so one of those ways to develop career workshops so they can start understanding how to write a resume how workplace etiquette is going on and the resources that they'll need in terms of coming out of prison but on the other side of the wall I am trying to get organizations to think about working with working with incarcerated people before they get out of prison that means it'll be less worked on them when they get out of prison and so I'm trying to build that connection between the community organizations and coming inside of San Quentin so they develop that relationships Hi good morning guys I'm John I'm an alumni of Mount Tama so I had a class in 2012 really make a real shift in my thinking when it comes to being considerate, conservative and Marxist so I'm kind of on the considerate Marxist side of the aisle because of a couple of writers that I had to read as part of my bibliotherapy in class for ethics in 2012 and one of the writers was Marx and the other one was John Rawls I would like you to add that to your considerate list of readings because it kind of shows people that there is at least in education and reading that you can read about a situation where oh this is how change can be affected if we investigate further so read John Rawls Bail of Ignorance Okay and kind of relate that to our world and where our starting points are and our outcomes are going to go because of the world we live in and Mount Tama College is working to change that Thank you So are we good on the questions? Do we have any on that phone or yours over there? One quick question Sorry Statistically high school dropouts are more likely to experience incarceration looking back what programs could have helped you stay in school and how did you spend your time while not attending school at such a young age? Wow That's such a deep question Thank you Yeah so I dropped out of school in the 7th grade and wanted to be accepted by my peers I came from Jackson, Mississippi so I moved to South Central LA that was a big gap in terms of not fitting in you all may hear my southern accent or my southern drool so I didn't feel like I had a voice or anything like that and I wanted to be accepted and so I found out that by acting out I could find acceptance or I could be like the cool guy or so to speak right but while I was growing up I wasn't aware of any programs that would help me stay in school maybe because I wasn't looking at those programs but I know that when I came back when I entered prison at the age of 25 I taught education like a form of redemption so I wanted to show my family that I was no longer involved with any of the things that I was involved with that got me into prison so one of the things that always kept running through my head was my grandmother telling me to stay in school or go to school, stay to school and so that was my way of showing my family that I was on the right track with going to school but I also like to say that while I was getting my education and while all the guys on the panel was getting their education that also education was working on us in terms of like building our self-confidence and I had a low self-esteem and so I saw validation outside of myself with negative peers but every homework assignment I passed every course I passed that was building me up and it gave me a voice to where I can answer questions that the teacher asked me questions I can answer and know that even though I had a sudden drew that it wouldn't be laughed at or anything like that and like one guy said so that was like very instrumental for me I would definitely do we have that time or no we sorry about that we don't have the time for it I would like to thank the panel up here and I would like to introduce the guy who can't say a sentence without laughing so I'm going to apply the pressure on him right now there's a microphone on hello, hello, yeah give me a mic you laughing over it what are you doing? my name is Richard Bonnaroo Richardson and I'm the communication associate at Mount Amapai College I'm also an alumni I'm also an alumni graduate 2012 can I get a little court that's fine so anyway I'd like to thank the San Francisco Library particularly Jonathan Steinitz who did an incredible job applause I'd also like to thank our donors because without them this work would not be possible at all I would like to thank our board members some of them who are here today thank you very much for attending and you I'd also like to thank you the community without you and your support none of this work would get done as well I'd also like to thank the president of Mount Amapai College Jody Lohan and also the Mount Amapai College faculty and staff who did an amazing job of putting this whole work together it was them who really did it you know in Mali parent she's amazing so Mount Amapai College is 100% supported by private philanthropy our main goal here was to show y'all how to build healthy communities through education and I hope we did that and a small community with strong pool for racial division these barriers was broken down behind closed doors imagine that so this June 16 we're going to have a commencement ceremony at San Quentin and no you're not invited but however we will be putting a video on our website so that you can see it also we have an epic boat coming up our Mount Amapai College students will be competing with a university college on debatable issues we will also put that on our website these community building events with our community you know so we encourage y'all to sign up for the e-news list at the back table please or you can sign up with the information that we're giving to you right now so thank you all for coming we really appreciate y'all support and please be careful and be safe on the way home thank you thank the panel thank the panel please Erlan, Johnny Lam, Wayne Bow White, Corey McNeil, Jesse Vaskiz, Sam Robinson and Anthony Ammons y'all guys are amazing thank you