 I'm going to start recording. Okay, we're recording and Pam, I'm going to make you host before I go away. I don't see any participants other than just those of us on the screen. Yeah, nobody's come in yet. Yeah, you started recording yet? Yes, for recording. Great. Then I'll start the meeting. No, we have a boring agenda when nobody's. This is, this is exciting. It is August 17, 2023. It is the regular meeting of the community resource committee. Community resources committee of the town council pursuant to chapter 20, the act of 21. Extend by chapter 22 and 107 acts of 2022 and extend by chapter two of the act of 2023 this meeting will be conducted via remote means members of the public who wish to access meeting may do so via zoom or by telephone instructions on our website. There is no in person attendance of members or or the committee. But every effort will be made to ensure that the public can adequately access the proceedings in real time via technological means. So, can we hear and be heard. Jennifer. Yes, I'm here. Pat. Yep. Yeah, yeah. We are missing Shalini. And we know that Mandy is not here. So there are the three of us. And we'll just keep an eye out for Shalini. The agenda, as you know, had the action items of the residential rental bylaw, but we have pretty much passed that on. The finance committee will talk about the fees structure fee and structure on the 22nd in their meeting. So I am not planning to talk or spend any time on that topic today. What I do want to spend a lot of time on is the general bylaw. I'm going to talk about the new since house, aka new since property. And I see that John is here as a spokesperson for the department. Who would help administer with. So that's really helpful. And I don't know if you all saw the, you saw the version which was actually produced back in February. So it's any really long time since we have talked about this particular part of the package. The first part's being. Now present. Great. Shalini, can you hear us. Yes, present. Wonderful. And we're here. I'm just saying that the, this, this document hasn't been talked about since February. So it's really been on the shelf for a while. It, it feels like a pretty important part of the whole package with the rental bylaw regulations and this, and this new bylaw upgrade. So there's still nobody in the audience. So I'm not going to talk about public comment right now, but we will have general public comment after we've talked about this house. This is bylaw. I do want to reserve about 20 30 minutes. If that feels right to talk about the housing trust questions that were posed to us. And I just want to make sure that we have enough time to do that at the end. Before public comment. So what, let's go into this and I'm going to try to share my screen. I took a clean copy of that. This is bylaw. Just because it's so busy with all the attractions additions. And into basic. So if someone actually will help keep track of if there are attendant attendees that come in from the public that really helpful because once I start sharing my screen. I may not be able to see them. So can you see the document. Yes. Okay, great. And I'm going to try to. Is that as large as it gets. Quick question. If you do see people in the audience, what do you want us to do? Just let me know, I guess, so that I can stop and pause and say we'll have public comment following. Okay. Got it. Yeah, thanks. Before I start reading this though, were there, were there any. Basic questions that you all had about the document. Not just questions, but just comment. colony. You're muted, Shalini. Sorry. Yeah, I was wondering if you need to relook at the definition of public nuisance, given that we are including more than noise like right now it says the quiet enjoyment. And, but if you're including plans and overgrowth and parking and a lot of these things, then maybe we need to expand that definition. You mean the title then, as in public nuisance or public or nuisance property I think was the proposed. I mean, in the later on when we say when we define what public nuisance is, it generally sounds like more related to noise or let me see. Oh wait, what was I looking at earlier. Oh wait this does include. Let me see. I'm looking later down and I thought it only referred to the quiet enjoyment, but here it does say it includes the illegal parking, public urination, but it's disturbing. Okay, so it does sort of include littering. And section, section B actually talks pretty right about what which might be included. Why. Okay, let me come to that I can come to but I thought I read it it was the quiet enjoyment. But it sounds. Peaceful. Right. Okay, let's go on. I will come back to it. Jennifer. Sorry. Yeah, I usually, I think I've heard the word used on peaceful enjoyment. More than quiet. Little difference. I just want to make sure that that description is in here somewhere. So, so in looking at this document as a whole. I think compared to our original one which was really nuisance house. And it's the nuisance house focus very much on party. And it was either, you know, a party house or or not. And it really didn't have any way to cover some of the issues some of the many issues that were raised by neighbors, including, you know, parking in the front lawn and trash and lack of maintenance of the of the home and the yard and that kind of thing. And so this, I think, hopefully discover. Describe the nuisance is more fully. One of the things in sort of analyzing this bylaw is that it tries to have a tiered approach. So there's, you know, a property that has no, you know, has had a violation or two. Then there's a property that actually has met the criteria of being a problem property where they have accrued several violations within a period of time. And then finally, the description of a nuisance property, which is the telling point. This approach also tries to identify who is notified at what level, because not everybody has to be notified in the first violation or two. It tries to simplify and clarify who needs to get engaged. One of the things we've heard from many of the property managers is that they felt they were not responsible for tenant behavior. And in fact, they aren't really for the first couple of violations, but once something may be deemed a problem property, then they're at least notified and they're asked to step in to help rectify the situation. This bylaw also now includes sort of a notification process, if something becomes a problem property, becomes a nuisance property, and how to correct those issues, and then finally just put our enforcement. So, if this is legible, and you can see it well enough, you also have the ability to print it out on your own or bring it up on your own screen. But as Mandy has often done, I thought we could just start at the beginning and go through and go through section by section. I want to make sure that we're done this by, let's see, about a quarter of six. Keep an eye on that. Under the definitions, something that was highlighted was that the costs associated with enforcement, the responses, either number five. The schedule of cost would be established by the town manager. And I didn't remember, you know, that could be that could be the section department. But I didn't remember that conversation at all. Did anybody else have any thoughts about that. And they are one attendee. Thank you. Any thoughts on who might establish the general. I don't have a thought I'm just wondering why town manager is it does he have a role to play in that now. I don't know. John know that answer. I don't know the answer to that. That somehow someone has set some response cost to That's how it is right now. And if you look at the, what it, the law is right, like the by law, as it stands currently, I think that statement is there is no answer. So that's the same. Right. Yeah. So then he can assign it to whoever he chooses to sell it. Where is it. Yeah. And for now. Well, there should be one if that's there and it is in the bylaw as it stands right now. There should be a schedule of costs. And that would have to be reviewed periodically as things change, I guess price, I don't know. John, are you aware of any schedule of costs. The standard, the standard, you know, violation violations be or whatever $100 a day. I mean the general bylaw lays out typically what those it doesn't well like for a noise violation or a nuisance house thing it says $300 right in the bylaw. It's different than a response cost. What if there's damage done or the cost of the staff? That's what I thought. We don't have, I don't think we have anything like that. Yeah, it is. Yeah. So I don't know. I'd be good to clarify perhaps with Paul. What, because a violation, a ticket, a violation is not a response cost. No, I think this is, this is sort of addresses like that property on, was it 20 Allen. That we went to, so we had fire there we had the police there we had, you know, the building inspection office we had an electrical inspector there. And the, you know, an assistant district attorney was there I mean if you started to add that all up for what did it cost us to be there for an hour. It's pretty serious. Yeah. And I think that's what this is addressing whether it's ever been used or not I don't know. Now I think it's new language, but it's not a bad idea. It is in the current bylaw. So it's not too new. It's a response if the property owner received, you know, incurred the cost for those responses. It'd be interesting to find out. Good. So we've noted it, and we'll come back to that the next round. Under B the public news violation. So this is the list shall any of all of the news that I guess that we could think of. And I love to create host allow attend or engage in a public news. And this, this note in yellow is simply that we wanted to keep track of the fact that that if there were multiple violations that they would in fact at some, at some level trigger a problem property and then a new property designation. And I think that that comment can come away because I think we have covered this. I want to just exit out. Jennifer you know. Yeah, I don't know if this is the time to ask it but it was a question I had for john. I don't know if you're immediately familiar with like 219. And I think it's 227 East Pleasant Street. There. It's a yellow house in a white house different owners next door to each other. Just north of triangle. So, would they fall under. I guess it's one or two. So there's both been behavioral issues with alcohol and then, you know, trash and all. It's a visual and behavioral nuisance parking issues at those properties as well. So would they be, would that, in terms of the property owner being responsible, would, would that come under our rental bylaw as well as the nuisance bylaw I mean would that be caught in one of both of these. Because those houses have been problems for years. What's the address again. I believe it's 227. Thank you. Agnes Ting owns one of them and a fellow from out of town owns the other one. And if you drive by them now, they don't look great, but they're not once they're occupied they're there. They're not in violation right now but but yeah, the kids are not there. Yeah. So I think to Jennifer's question though, we go through this bylaw. Are we going to be able to rectify those situations more easily because of this with this bylaw. I guess. The question is when does it become a public nuisance. Is it how much time we're spending on it is it how many complaints that it incurs. There's, there's a, there's a neighbor who's an active complainer. And that's, but, but also these are on a main public way so you know we drive by and we, we see it. Okay, so Jennifer does that do you want to follow up just wondering so so the neighbor complaints. Like I know one complaint was they had. They were giving alcohol and it was like drive by and beep, they come out and give you alcohol that was one disturbance and then just there's always debris. So the, the neighbor makes a complaint. And let's say there's four complaints, then what happens with under this. Yeah, I don't know the answer to that. What does happen under this. What, what's the trigger for becoming a public nuisance. I can tell you what the document says. And that's that if there are, if there are three or more violations within a lease period, they're at least acknowledged as a problem property and the owner gets notified and they are responsible for creating a correction plan. If there's a, if there's a follow up violation within a short period of time after the initial violations, then they become quickly become a nuisance violation or nuisance property. But we will get to that in a little bit but Jennifer. I actually thought that to have a correction plan was a really. I think that's a great idea. I guess it involves the property owner in a way that you're not monetarily. It's like we're going to work together here to do, to do that. So I think I like that. And it's hard to imagine a property owner wouldn't want to join one in doing that. You know, it's being like, let's have come up with a solution wrap before we're going to be punitive. The number two be two is that description that we talked about public nuisance. I mean, a peaceful enjoyment or in this case, the quiet enjoyment of private or public property. Anybody want to change that to the peaceful enjoyment. Melanie. Yeah, I just looked up the definition and I think this is better it's very simple change it is. So the detail hold on. Public nuisance consists of acts that interfere with the enjoyment of a person's property. So it's not just removes the word quiet basically, but so anything that interferes with the enjoyment of a person's property. I mean I'm happy. But I think that broadens it beyond quiet. And then we also list out the specifics of what is included with an enjoyment. The way this reads, it says, the angel disturbance of the enjoyment of private or public property to a significant segment of a neighborhood. And I wasn't sure where that wording came from who who gets to determine how significant a portion of neighborhood it is. So because it feels odd. I am I think you're on it. If it's bothering one person who's right next door but it doesn't bother somebody three houses down what does that mean, or four houses down. Does it mean that we that we throw a, you know, a radius around that property and, you know, if it disturbs, you know, it gets it just gets so prescriptive and we say well 50% of the people with them, you know, of the the butters or something like that. That gets harder and harder to like John to have to track. You don't have to do it anymore very soon. We used to when Beth and I lived up on money you rode. You would sit out on the porch and it would sound like the UMass drum line was out in the driveway. I mean, you know what kind of a radius is that that's, that's a couple miles away. Right. You can't. I would just say it should just be if it's, if your enjoyment of a public or private property period. I mean, if, if your neighbor has to is disturbed every weekend. That's a problem. Yeah, I was thinking if you talk about a butter notices and I think that's everything within 200 feet or whatever so I think that I think that's fine just it'll be will be up to someone. It's also some neighborhoods the houses are closer together than others. Right. Okay, so that's kind of that's what what is being considered a public nuisance violations. Let's see if there are any below this yellow right here, certain violations that list all of the other references to violations that we track, and they come from all the bylaw sections. And they are valid I checked them all they, they make sense, but they refer to access outdoor lighting occupancy of the household vegetation maintenance and parking colony. Who is this bylaw meant to be read by residents right. I was new in town and I wanted to look at it. So this to me means like I need to go into each and every of those bylaws, I don't think I'm going to do that. Like it says, you know, go to 11.2417 or 12 this is, and I wonder if there's like an appendix attached to this, which gives a description, like if we don't want to make this too lengthy or something, but it just seems to honor us for people to go and find those different things. So if we listed the categories then so this would be to one and two if we listed the categories and then had an appendix of actual, you know, that's a good idea. Yeah. I'll help a little bit and simplify it. Okay. So other activities that may not violate a specific bylaw, but that we talked about that disturbed again the quiet enjoyment of a property. Actually the sidewalk obstruction is a violation of a bylaw. Yeah, yeah. And so is vegetation. And now it is. If it impacts the use of the sidewalk if it impacts the public way, my neighbors next door do not mow their lawn. And it's, you know, Jag, you know, it's a but that's their property they have a right to do that. But if it impacts the street the public street and there's I asked them to mow one section because it blocked vision down the road when you were pulling out. So that is already taken care. Okay. Is the violation now it should go without other category. Well, except those are zoning. This is general bylaws. So either. So either it has to say general bylaws here or it has to go in here, certain violations of the zoning, or general bylaws and then they would need to be listed. Does that make sense of the general general general bylaw or bylaw. Yeah, and if you have a three and general but what what is that we all worked on that very recently. Snow and ice it's 3.4 zero maybe. Yeah. So can I ask a question. Yeah. So what I sometimes see in my, you know, is because there's single car driveways and if there's four cars with the house that sometimes a car is always parked over the sidewalk on the driveway. Would that come under the snow and ice and general obstruction bylaw. If it stops pedestrians from being able to walk without going into the street. Yes. Okay. I mean john correct me if I'm wrong on that. Yeah, but the more powerful tool is in the zoning that says you can park two cars in the front setback. So the front setback starts at the property line, you've already then got more than two cars in that. That's that's what we've been citing up. Not that you're blocking the sidewalk. Okay. I'm going to get them two ways. So the rest of this list was vegetation overgrowth of grass and leaves indoor furniture on the front lawn, and then again suitable list of things that that are noted by the inspection services or please which is regulations relating to animals false alarms and vehicle unlawful noise littering and illegal dumping snow and ice. Oh, there we are. There's no one I certainly conduct possession of alcohol. And, and, and that's it. Yeah, in general bylaw 3.4 doesn't have to be corrected now but we should note it is not snow and ice anymore. And ice is still in the title I believe but I get what the whole hood she is. Yeah, it's been because we just rescinded and replaced it. Yeah, she's got her hand. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. So that just brought up about the neighbor with the, you know, vegetation overgrowth of grass and weeds should just generally some people that have longer grass. Is that applying to them or only if it obstructs vision or safety or something. Because some people like longer. Right, and they should be allowed to have it that's why I'm saying. Yeah, yeah, to them was where it was blocking vision to exit the street. So now it just says, it's very general, general broad vegetation overgrowth of grass and weeds. And that's, yeah, I don't want to regulate personal taste about creating a photo. Exactly. Walking, walking sidewalk. Right. Okay, thank you. And so again, we sort of list the same types of things where it just reminds everyone that these are general categories of issues that we that we bump into any, any, any additions. And I go on. This is the very short definition of a problem property designation or a new property. It's kind of third violation of the bylaw and assuming with any one year period or the current lease period, because most of those are put from June to June kind of a thing. Or at the discretion of the enforcing authority, the property should be designated a problem property. So that would be john weighing in, or his department weighing in, where, and then we'll talk about how each of these is dealt with. Where, where it ratchets up is then a nuisance property and we really need to have a discussion about what categorizes what triggers that nuisance property. So if you've got three violations in a in a school year, let's say, along with that third violation, you are a problem property. And upon any additional by violation of this bylaw within the same one year or currently period, after they've already been noted as a problem property. That would either force for more violations. Or if they failed to implement a corrective plan. And that's the designation of the of the section staff, then the property would be designated a new property. Does that make sense. It does I just have a question I should probably know this but in the past or currently because we haven't adopted this, if there's a problem property. John your office would get so there we haven't done a corrective plan. So I just want to be clear that the building and department would initiate the corrective plan. So I'm trying what I'm trying to think of this Pam I know that you reached out, you wrote to a landlord outside of Amherst to add a problem property and you had a constituent who is complaining and you never heard back. If the town were to send a letter. John, would you probably hear back. Maybe not. I've got one that I'm chasing right now and I've heard zero from the owner. Pam, you know the property it's on Taylor street. Yep. Yep. What do you so what does the town do then I mean just at some points to spend the license the next time of the permit when it comes up for renewal I mean what I mean I don't know what the next step is and this this maybe gives you some guidance about this as far as I'm concerned this property would already be a problem property and it's probably already then kicked up to a nuisance property because I've got no no response. So would we. Not allow that property owner to renew their permit the next time. I mean is that the only thing that's going to maybe, you know, get through to them. Probably. I don't know. I don't know how you're going to enforce that. But I would have to apply for a permit and if they're denied that. They'll know that right. Right. So let's let's keep going through this and see if it makes sense because that's exactly I think why we felt that a nuisance property by law needed to be strengthened so that it gave the inspection service. And I'm surprised to learn they don't even respond to the town. That's interesting. Yeah, go on. I'm sorry. Yeah. So, so after you have a designation you're either, you know, a great property or you're a problem property or you become a nuisance property is the next section is okay so who's who's responsible who do you contact. And for properties that haven't been designated anything yet, but have had a couple violations, you basically go to the occupants. The occupants at the property where the, where the nuisance is occurring. And it could be the occupants it could be the, the people who ever organized or sponsored an activity that ended up that as a nuisance, or people that are engaging me in the activity. So it's the partying. It's the invitations to a party that I would say are typically what was following here. Once a property is designated as a problem property. So if they've had three violations in within this period of time. If it is a problem property, then who gets notified. So it would be the same occupants. It would be the same whoever sponsored the activity. It'd be the same people engaged in the activity. And then it would be any owner or persons in charge of the problem property, who have not met with town officials and submitted a corrective action plan within seven days. So you finally bring in as a problem property, you say, okay, you're going to engage the owner with the, also the charges designation and the, and the notification that they have a problem property on their hands. That makes sense. Yes. And I'm wondering if we could have here that if the property owner doesn't respond to communication from the town that there's some consequence. I mean, I, you know, when you mentioned your instance where you had written to the property owner, a handwritten comment that they didn't respond. I was like, okay, you're just you. But I assumed if they got it from our building commissioner there'd be a response but to hear that they will actually ignore the building commissioner. Then there really needs to be some consequence, I think, because it seems like giving the opportunity for corrective action plan is, you know, goodwill on the part of the town. If they're not responding to notification from the town or an invitation to develop a corrective action plan then it seems like all we have then is to deny them the opportunity to renew a permit for the next year. Any other thoughts on that? Pat or Shalini. Okay, so if, so back to back to here if, if a property is designated a problem property, it would engage the owners and or the, or the property managers, the persons in charge. If a property then, then it's designated a nuisance property, which means there has been yet another violation or more on that same property. The same occupants are responsible the same person sponsoring the activity are responsible are responsible to people engaging in the activity are responsible. The owners and the persons in charge have now been notified there also have been notified now that they were not just a problem property but now they're a nuisance property. The public nuisance violation has occurred 14, you know, two weeks they after notifications of the owner of that problem property. So the problem property john sends a note to the people. And two weeks later, nothing has been done. They could be notified that they are now a nuisance property. So, I'm curious about how I hold the occupants responsible. How do I know who the occupants are that you have on file the occupants with every lease. No, I don't have a leases I have to request the leases. There's no way we could manage. You know what what are we talking about here 5000 leases that are going to come in every year and we're going to We don't have that we don't we don't keep that information. Done and going back to whether it's a problem or a nuisance property how do you, how do you cite the occupants or the. I don't like the occupants. I don't cite occupants. Who do you cite the owner. Even on a first pass, there's a drinking party at this thing. So wouldn't you have the right just like police has if it's in the bylaw that we allow you to do that. If there's a violation you can knock on the door and find people, or give them a notice. I can't, I can't just hand out tickets to anybody know I, I, I don't have those sort of police powers. Even if it was written in the bylaw that inspection people can go and I don't know. I guess that needs to be run by the town attorney. So the, the, in this case, letter, a number three, a B and C are the same people that we thought we were acknowledging, you know, with the minor violation, the first violation, the second violation, who gets to get the ticket. And those are to me those are probably more the, the noise and party type activities that would occur. The police ticket, you know, the occupants. If there's a noise complaint for a loud party or whatever they, they go there they identify the occupants and they write tickets to them, and then they take them to court. Okay. And that could also be the, the, the folks who maybe organize the activity and also if they're unruly folks, the people who are participating in the activity. That's right. That's typically police through them. That's right. Let's say we get into the, sorry, Jennifer, you want to break in. I have a question after. Okay. So, so let's say then we've now gone into other categories of violation that have started to add up. You do have the owners. Contact information because that's required in our rental registration bylaw. You can, you can demand the lease. Yes. So all of that could have happened in your first, in your first correspondence to the, to the owner and or project. That's right. And you, and you say, your house, your house has, you know, has hit the threshold for a problem property. I am notifying you of that. And I'm, and I'm directing you to provide us a corrective action plan within X number of days. Does that, does that work? Does this give you the authority to do that? Yes, it does. I don't, it works with most people. Jennifer. It sounds like this is where the disconnect is the neighbors call the police, the police deal with that response to the noise or nuisance complaint and it doesn't get communicated to the building commissioner's office or inspections. Is that correct? There's a record keeping thing that aids to happen here. Yes. So this is what happened with house around the corner. You know, or house in my district, a major nuisance house and the calls. So I, you know, was contacted by the constituents and I involved the management company, but the calls would go into the police station and it just so happened there were like six calls that went in over the three days of graduation weekend. And a new property manager with the company assigned to that property happened on her own to look at the police call for the weekend and saw that there were like six calls to one of the houses that she manages. But if she hadn't taken that initiative, bill inspections wouldn't know it and she hadn't noted. You know, those calls, those weekend calls are shared with all the language and inspection services. So she saw it by reading that email from Bill Laramie. Oh, okay. She said she, oh, okay, I always wanted to wonder that. So she did not her own look at the log it was sent to her. That's right. Okay, so that's great. So that connection was made. She saw her an address for a property that she managed. And she said, whoa, uh oh. And this was actually a very nice story because back in June, she reached out to me and the neighbors, we met with her. And just today I got an email from her saying, I would like to you to all to come to a meeting she had a date and time she had worked it out with the eight new tenants of this house because it's a two unit to me and she did that on her own so anyway. That's how it should work. Right. So that's happy ending, hopefully. But it's good to know that that connection, the calls came to the police and it did get where it needs to go. Okay, thank you. So sometimes, sometimes what happens is the police get those calls, they're too busy to respond they by the time they do respond, there's no noise there you'll see that in the police log. A noise gone on arrival, noise gone on arrival. That doesn't mean there wasn't a problem there. But yeah. Yeah, but would they have so they notify the property owner but would they have also notified you. No, no, I mean I get those emails but no there's no there's no other sort of mechanical connection there that you know we would, we would see that or it would be tagged to that property. Should that happen. I mean if you're going to start keeping score, then it has to happen doesn't it. Yeah, I think it does. Jennifer that's a good point I was going to ask. I remember in the recent conversation about streetlight that one of the new additions to that bylaw was that there would be a public listing. I think it might have been a map, but at least a public listing of of all of the streetlights in town and when they were changed. And I was going to ask that we insert some language here that that makes and keeps a public record of all violations. Such that somebody, whether it's, you know, a potential tenant, somebody who wants to, you know, move into that house they could actually look to see what the records were for that property. I know that the link to the GIS map has been broken for a long time. It's not broken it's just that there was, there's a security risk with that program and so they shut that off, but yes that's how that used to happen all those noise complaints and all of my violations and complaints got, got tagged onto properties and you could go to that map and you could see any house in town that had them, you could click on it you could bring up the list. But we, we've lost that functionality now that programs no longer supported. Right. So the question is, how do we, I think we need to add some wording in here that requires a listing of all violations charged or whatever so that they're noted publicly. And that was something that we heard pretty loud and clear from, from a lot of the neighbors who, who had originally encouraged the town to keep the map link up. Think about some, something like, you know, the town will track. Use the violations and problem properties on a town website. Let's see what did I jot down in an accessible location and format map if possible. So if Bill Laramie is keeping a record of noise of complaints to the police department on some weekly or monthly basis cannot be sent to inspections. So you can see property, you know, so that it is sent it's sent to me. Okay. And who will it be said to in two weeks. Rob. Yeah, I guess Rob. And I would say what, what happens if you know AF Bill Laramie goes on vacation or they decide not to continue that position. What happens to that, you know, assessment and list. Yeah, change happens. I know, I know, so we need to sort of build in I think that there's some reporting on that. I think that was my head anyway. Should that be in this bylaw though. It's just like it should. Maybe under enforcement. How about we just put it in here for now. They help us remember back to the back and sorry this is really tedious isn't it. Such a horrible process. But so I want to kind of recap for my own cell. What happens when a property becomes a problem property. The occupants are addressed served a citation from the police or whatever. But the owners. The owners need to submit or provide a, a corrective action plan within seven days of being notified that they have a problem. If that makes sense, does that work? Yes, that's good. When they ratchet up to becoming a nuisance property. It's essentially the same thing. The owners or persons in charge. You've been notified that it's a nuisance property. And that there has been another violation. I think they would be notified that the property was a was identified as a problem property. And another nuisance occurred within or after 14 days. Oh, so I'm sorry. The owner of the property should not be held responsible for our violation if the odor is actively trying to evict a tenant from the property and this to me gets really sticky. If there was, if there was additional violation occurring. And, and you would, would the owner just say, oh, I'm trying to evict them. It's the, it's the middle of the second semester. And I'm going to be evicting these people. I'm starting the process now. Would they just use that as an excuse to not take corrective action in the meantime. I'm looking at John. It depends on what the correction, the corrective action is. I mean, I think you've got probably parallel tracks here, you know, they probably still need to correct whatever it is. And they might be evicting the problem. But that's, that's only part of the solution. So describe what that, what that actually means. I don't, we don't get involved in an eviction. That's, that's something, you know, that a property owner or landlord does in housing court. I think it depends on what, what it was, what was, what were the issues that brought this to, to become a nuisance property. It had to been pretty egregious to go from being just a problem property that you were going to take corrective action on and give me, show me what the plan was to now you've leaped up to this. Yeah, something, something broke down here. So, so the question is, do we, do we keep the sentence in here then that the owner would not be responsible if they are in fact in the middle of a, they're in the middle of a eviction process. Trying to imagine how it is that the owner isn't responsible for anything that happened up to the point where we got all the way to here. They can't be that disengaged with the property. So does it make sense to just take this out. This reference to evictions out. The owner has been notified. You've been notified it's a problem property. And another nuisance has occurred within 14 days after you knew that this was a problem. Yeah, they're not going to have gotten an eviction process going in those 14 days. I hear what John is saying about it's not going to happen in 14 days, but if an owner of the property is trying to evict a tenant or tenants from their property already for these kinds of violations or non payment of rent or other reasons. Why should. Yeah, it just seems I'm questioning whether they should be responsible because one of the things that might happen is that the tenants decide to do a blowout party because they're leaving or I don't know it. I'm not sure how I happen. Yes, I hear what you're saying. And I think what this means is, if you've got, if you've all this has happened and you're now in this active process. This active process of trying to get them out. I'm not going to cite you for another thing. I mean, yeah, if you're not doing anything, of course you should be cited again. But if you're actually actively trying to correct the situation by evicting tenants, right, I'm not writing you more fines. Yeah. So it makes sense to maybe add in there does. Yep. I mean how many evictions occur in a year for misbehavior. Few, very few, if any. Good question. Okay, so we'll, we'll, we'll, I'm going to also take out the question that that was prompted. Okay, enforcement. This is just a simple list of the tools that are available. One is monetary penalty. Two is abatement. And I guess that means corrected. Right. So you used the word corrective or is abate the real word. You've got your hand up. Sorry. Yeah, did we discuss the part e of the previous section the designation of the property may result in the suspension suspension of their permit. That to me felt a little ambiguous it's kind of for a property owner to not know like under we need to add firstly I'm not sure I agree that we should be penalizing but we've sort of had this discussion and it sounds like what I'm hearing John say that they cannot be completely disconnected from what's happening with the renters so they are to some degree responsible. I don't get that, but then to just leave this over there hey good yours thing could be suspended but without specifying if so many. I don't know what those criteria will be under which I think we need to specify that. If we if we have a situation where inspection department says well there there are all these violations the neighbors, the neighbors I'm thinking about the folks in North Amherst that we are talking about a duplex being built on a property that already has pages of violations attributed to the same property. At what point does the town have any have any say in the ability for these people to continue to make money. And I think that I'm sorry. I think it's very important. That a permit be the potential for suspension of the permit is there. I think it's not having that there, then landlord doesn't isn't really responsible for anything, or you know the impact is minimal. Okay, so it still would be up to the inspection services about you know. But I just mean even for the inspection services would they want a little more clarity around when because it just may not happen or it may. You know it's just kind of very ambiguous to me like I completely agree that if there are all these things piling up and then they should be a threshold at which point this gets triggered, but should be specify. I mean I would probably want to hear from john because you have the most practical experience with what this might look like or since when you're gone let's say they're lesser experienced people who come in your place now. What would give them that the freedom or the, what's it the authority to, to go there. What needs to happen for that person for the staff down staff inspection to trigger this thing revocation of the permit. I think. Yeah, I, I hear what you're asking and I. I think you'd have to been totally ignored I mean you have exhausted every other form of your authority here you've been to court. The magistrate has said you got to do this by August 1 August 1 comes and goes. No action. Now, now we're going to take away your rental permit. I'm, I wonder if they will recognize that authority. I don't know how you get them to not rent their house but it's a. It seems like it's a in inevitability that you're going to have to do it. So yeah if they continue to rent the house. There are fines that would could that be imposed on them. The fines and the fines go, you know you end up back in court. Right. And they come to court and they say oh man I you know I can't pay $5700 I don't have that kind of money. It gets, it gets negotiated, you know. So just to sort of sorry to sum up this, this section E so something has been designated a nuisance. It has climbed the ladder to the point where a corrective action plan was originally required for a problem property. We have not done that in the timely manner they haven't they sort of ignored the directives of the town to to abate the problem. If we didn't have section E in there that says it could you know violation of this or or or designation as a nuisance property can result in you not being able to. And the property, it does feel like that that it does feel like it's kind of the only chief we have. Yeah. It makes sense and we have it in the current bylaw. Okay, only thing is I am convinced we should have it. Do we just need to qualify it by saying something like if all other measures or something if they have if all measures have like what you were saying john if all other. All other attempts to compliance fail. Yes, thank you. Yes, I like that. And of course all of this has to be checked by because would that be hard to prove in accord and all of that so we'll get the right legal language perhaps but. Okay, thank you. Okay, so then enforcement is it's now about 10 it's about 535 so a couple, you know, 10 more minutes of this and then we'll switch enforcement is monetary penalty abatement meaning fix it. Response costs those are something the town can levy the corrective action plan may be requested. A loss of a rental permit. So again, this is one tool we have. And then this is where I threw in that that tracking the list of violations on some public website so that the community is aware of. It feels kind of like enforcement to me. Why is it enforcement. I don't know. It may not be appropriate here but it's, it's like having this public knowledge is is a tool. Is a tool. Yeah, so we're stocks. Why do we do away with those actually. Oh, John. You're so full of it. There you go. What about a dunking stool, come on. Does this belong here. Right, we'll just leave it at that. So again it doesn't it doesn't dictate any of these just listing out with what enforcement. I tell you where you don't want to live next door to. Right. Yeah, but how many people would go on a town website to see. Actually, the off campus student housing used to use that as a tool, they would map up, they would ask perspective tenants where they were thinking of living they would say an address they would pull it up and say, well, you know, maybe you want to think twice about that. This house has actually been a problem house. Maybe they're saying boy, the neighbors on that block are really strict. You don't want to live there. This next section which is, which is called notification and correction process. So this is sort of, these are the steps that happen. This is, this is the corrective action that's requested and I'm looking at my watch going. We want to delve into this or not and maybe we just sort of run through it and then we can think about it for the next round, but in public property notifications so if something has achieved the status of public of problem property, a notice of that will be mailed to the owners and the person's in charge, telling them that the property has been designated a problem property. If a residential permit exists for the property, the permit may be suspended revoked or denied renewal that maybe needs to go down into the property section. That seems like a little bit tough on this first go around your problem property. I don't know if it's appropriate to make that statement. And then each day or portion thereof that the violation exists beyond the corrective action plan timeframe will constitute a separate ascent so this is John's department going, you know, you have three weeks to get this thing. And if not, you start accruing fine. If more than one provision of this by law is violated each provision violated. So the process for public for problem property corrections is upon notification of the problem designation. The owner or manager will contact the town and schedule a meeting within seven days. So they've given notify they have a week to reach out and schedule a meeting. It doesn't mean that the meeting has to happen within the seven days, but at least they have scheduled the meeting. And to discuss the property and initiate the development of a corrective action plan to address the issues. A written corrective action plan will be submitted to the town within 10 calendar days after receipt of the problem property designation. And then the town will direct implementation of the plan and identify the timeframe for getting it. Failure to submit the action plan by the deadline is considered a separate violation failure to implement the plan results. Then there is a new property designation for the property. Does that make sense. I mean I think so I said it before because it doesn't hold the property owner responsible for the tenants behavior but it involves them in a corrective plan. I think for most property owners, not the ones who well hopefully but the ones that don't even respond when they hear from the building commissioner's office but I think for most they would then be, you know, following that property. And this is not something that they're not going to want to have to be doing corrective action plans every month. So I think it involves them and I think most will then be proactive. Hopefully it will involve those that don't respond right now, but I don't know I think this is very good. Any other any other thoughts on this because I think this is where we should probably hold up with it and I'll just put a symbol or something that we stopped here. That's your eight 1723. Okay. So the similar similar to that though the nuisance property what is the what is the time frame. I would love john's feedback on the nuisance property because I think there is a question of you go through the whole corrective action plan again and give them another 10 days to do another plan. And then, you know, give them a time frame for getting it abated, or is there somehow somewhere a more immediate feedback to them. I think it has to be an immediate feedback. You've, we've, we've negotiated a time frame here and for some reason, it hasn't happened. I can only think that it hasn't happened because you weren't driving, you know, I can't work with landlords who, you know, I can't get I can't get man and man pest to come until next Thursday. Okay, you know, but you're we're in communication. There's, there's, we're communicating with each other that's fine it's I don't want to go back there in 15 days and find out you didn't do anything. So, so the response from you is that, yes, we need some immediate feedback rather than another, like I'll just say another series of compliance plan. No, I mean, you know, right. We had a plan and he didn't stick to. Yeah. Okay. Okay, john, thank you. And I would, I would love your remaining. Any time tomorrow. No. First to smile last day. You're not counting. It's within two weeks. And we will not. I won't be, I won't be, this is my last meeting. John, will you read this carefully. And make some comments because I really value your contributions to this. Last document. Thank you. And, and before you sign off topic. And everybody is going to join me in this but really, really appreciate it and really enjoy working with you. Good. No, can I say something. You bet. Yeah, no, john. So I was on fearing street a little gathering a few weeks ago and they're a tough crowd on fearing street. They usually have pitchforks and torches. A person they were singing your praises. I mean, they really feel like they have a friend. Paul and you are. I mean, we just can't thank you enough. You are unbelievably responsive, you know, for years before us on the council, I literally had johns, I would text him. As I was walking my dog and would see things and you, you're just, and you, I think you started the conversations, the meetings on the street in front of a rental house between the neighbors and the students and it's really been life altering. I just thank you for so much you've really been a gift to the town. You're going to be missed. Happy retirement. Yeah, retirement. Thank you so much john for everything you've done and the way you've done I do disposition everything is. Thank you. Yeah, we really deeply appreciate you and your humor, your intelligence. And the work you've been doing for years. Thank you. Thank you. Well, Well, All right, so enjoy. Bye bye. That's a deep sadness. So sad. And Oh, Sonia then Sean, Sonia I could handle because we can show an incredible team but to lose, you know, and she was a loss for me because we were friends as well and, but Sean being driven out is just horrible. Did he feel a leader. Yes he was driven out by The way he had been treating it treated in meetings by some of the public. Oh, that's terrible. Yeah, it is. I did not know that. I think that might be under pressure. Yeah, maybe a topic for another, either TSO or some. I don't know if it's even something that does. Yeah, this has happened before. Right. So now we have this new law where we can't even. And there's the difference. That's about public comment. It's, and yes, people can say anything they want. This wasn't necessarily a comment related. No, this was a lot of it was public comment and distortions and personal. Who needs it. Right. And yeah. So That's a really good point. I, I, when I wrote to him, I just said, you know, you were so you should have so many different responsibilities. I hope, you know, it was sort of maybe at his, as his choosing, or maybe at the request of town manager to take on things. And I said, I hope that wasn't the workload. It was people. Oh, I'm so sorry to hear that. We have a lot to answer for as a community and I don't know whether we will answer it or even ask the questions that need to get asked about it. Sorry. Thanks for bringing that up, but that's definitely a conversation to be had for now. Do you want to do a public comment? Before we switch into the, the, so we're not a you are the, you're not supposed to say the names. And I do that. That's why I'm The planning department needs the names of everyone who attends. I think it's a great idea. And because if they were sitting in the audience, they would look around, they'd see each other, they would know who was there. And in this case, it's for nada who is all by herself in the, in the audience and I would like to let her know that it's That we're open for public comment. If she would like to raise her hand, I will do my best to try to bring her in. Yay, she did say she wanted to speak. Yeah. Hi, Renata, do you yourself and give us your name and address. Thank you, Renata shepherd justice drive Amherst. I'm looking at the nuisance by law I'm glad that you are looking at finding and I'm going after the people who actually cause the nuisance not the property owner because sometimes you know when you have a one year tenants and you don't know, you know, you may have a bunch of students that you think might be great tenants and it turned out that they are party people. And they're going to leave in a few months, you can't even start an eviction process sometimes, because you know it's not going to, they're going to leave before that goes through. And hopefully that won't stain a property just because of that one group of bad people and there is a possibility that you're going to have another group of rowdy people. You know if you're not lucky enough to get good tenants but hopefully whatever finds and and punishments will go towards the perpetrator of the nuisance situation. I guess the property owner should be involved in creating a plan, but not lose their livelihood because of some some bad apples. Thank you. And happy retirement to john I hope that he can pass on his perception in terms of who's responsible for what to whoever's going to follow him on this endeavor. Thank you. Our next item of business is to discuss the follow up to the joint CRC am a ht meeting and there were a couple of questions that were posed to us and they were essentially a discussion to fit specific affordable housing recommendations into the manager's goal and to figure out some specific priorities to go along with that. That's one one topic and then I'm looking at Shalini as I read the next one that the creating and developing or running a survey to an outreach on what types of housing people actually want. As. Pardon. Renata is still in the. So, I think I need to mute her. Oh, I need to ask you to unmute. No. Okay. Sorry, Renata. I think you have to move her back into the audience to be consistent with how we. She's still here. Yeah, we'll survive. I mean, it's not a big deal. She can do anything anyway, so. Anyway. Okay, I didn't do that right. Remember what Athena said. It's probably like a right click on the person's name. There should be an option when you right click it. I think it said hide those who are not a panel and so I hit her. She's not working. Renata is still in the audience. No, she's still a panelist. Yeah. But she is muted. Okay. The second, the second item. The third item. I would add besides a good job, but else might they want to keep them here. This is probably pie in the sky, but in the last international town gown webinar that Paul sent us the link to, I was, I mean, I thought it was had never real well since they never thought about but when the University of Tennessee at Memphis, I guess it was their medical college talked about that I think they got a public private partnership to actually build housing that also included employees of the university. I mean, since so many of the 29 to 40 year olds that would live here work for one of you know two of the colleges of the university. If we, and since the university said they don't really you know they're reluctant to build more student dorms on campus because of the demographic cliff but they don't know you know what the student enrollment is going to be going down the line but they're always going to have the university employees, if they could do maybe a public private partnership for townhouses apartments whatever for employees of the university, that would be also a great way of getting children in our schools and I don't know so there was they were affordably priced yeah right if they were afford yes not price like if they were affordable priced. That's one if that's said if we allowed zoning changes that allowed duplexes triplexes etc etc. Those are already allowed. You know what I'm talking about. No but we're even thinking like gateway, which is in a RG area. The gate. I mean there's there's areas near town and anyway, we just know it's a it's a good idea. It's not a bad idea. We need to do that. So Jennifer, maybe you could think about some way to sort of craft that into a manager. strategy or goal that we could add in, and then I'm shall and I'm going to call on you. I was thinking of two things. One is like hiring that person I know we're hiring a half time person to be an employee who will work with the affordable housing trust. Right. Yeah, it actually gets used that way. Instead of just supporting staff doing what they're doing. Yeah, but it would be nice and since we don't have an economic development director and since this is part of development, but the kind of development we want to see which is more housing for, and you know that does raise our taxable property taxes so it is a kind of an economic development and but focusing so if he had a person, even it was half time, or some hours who's focused on meeting with way finders meeting with different people finding other different types of housing models which we're starting to get into the gables and all of this we're starting to see but if there was a focused person who is really making those connections and inviting those kind of developments and supporting them. I think that would be a really good investment. And then secondly, back to the survey, I again think it's really important, because if you don't know what people need really be solving for the wrong problem. And I'm just speaking out of based on anecdotal data that having spoken to a few teachers who live in leverage. And I was like, what would it take for you to live in Amherst. And when we say affordable housing or let's say workforce housing or, you know, and we understood what I understood was that even if we provided housing here, they would not be able to get that kind of landscape and words and you know that much space that they're getting the buck the value they're getting for that, you can't deliver it, they're not going to get it here. So will people so that's why I feel doing a survey with some open ended questions and some not open ended is really important to understand and hone into what can we build that will make it attractive for people. Sorry, my reminder for composting. Okay, thank you. I just get a clarification sort of a question. And if a if how if on the Tennessee campus and I didn't I don't remember whether this was addressed. And so on the UMass campus UMass, well with the public private partnership builds housing for students and also housing that includes staff. Are we allowed to tax that if we're not that there is no revenue for the town there. So, you know, I think I think it's different for schools and things if maybe, but we don't gain any, any tax base from it we get no, but we have an more of an impact on our services, etc. So how would we address that. Well, Pam you go but I do know that they're different. Sorry, like you go but I'm going to say a few things. Curiosity. My recollection is that is that no they would not the way it's structured now know they would not be taxed, just like the new dorms are not taxed. We could oversee them if they were not operated by the University we could oversee them and inspect them etc. That said, I think there is a push if I'm not mistaken to to adjust the pilot formulas. If we are able to base it on on structure value rather than, you know, some nominal land land values. And the reason I say that is that the campus has something like 13 million square feet of structure on the campus right now. And if that were tax that even a pilot amount, even nominally on the on the replacement value or insurance value of those structures, please, it would, it would solve a lot of problems. Oh yeah. Oh yeah, that's not going to happen. Yeah, maybe that could be a town manager goal though to work on it. Yeah, but I could be a goal but I think the other piece of it is we have Hampshire College and Amherst College and their they own single family homes that they rent to their staff and their faculty their faculty. I don't know if they rent to their cleaners etc. But they do rent to faculty. And they that is not taxed but see that it seems to me that we should be able to tax with the private colleges, those residences at a rate at a resident residential tax rate tax rate. So I'd like to see the town manager be working on that as well as you know saying oh well we're going to go to UMass and we're going to get more pilot money. Yeah, we can put that in there but it's ain't going to happen. I would double check to make sure I actually thought that Amherst College properties were tax those those residences were tax. I don't know I could be wrong so it'd be great for us to find out that would be good. Thank you. I think that different actually it's not always the case that it will be tax exempt. My understanding is that that it is just the way this was structured like if it's a nonprofit that owns. And then, like who's doing the price, there's some way that they got around it but it's not always the case I think the town can tax in public private. I think they can too. I think you can find like, I mean let's say it was his gateway is, is that by the university that lab of grass. It is. Okay. But parts of it isn't it owned by Shambay and all parts of those. I'm not sure, but I thought part of it was private. Well, from Mercy Church, closest to Triangle Street from there to the sorority is, is UMass land, then there's the whole sorority and then UMass starts again. They're entering the side right near Butterfield Terrace Road. Okay. I mean, there has to be a way we can do it. Yeah. Yeah. The question though and what about ball lane if ball lane is, is that tax, you know, if that becomes owner occupied, you know, own property that would, that would pay normal property tax I would guess right. Yeah, I think so. The East Gables must be paying property tax. Okay, that's that was not a hundred percent, you know, again, it's like that's what I've been assuming. But I think that's again worth clarifying for ourselves. I was told that new house for the Hampshire College president is being taxed because that he's still using the other house to as where he entertains and does business, and this residence on sunset is just his residence. That's Amherst College, not Hampshire College. Yes, Amherst College president paying taxes, which is good. Are you sure of that. No, I, Mandy told me that and I thought maybe she was right. He's got such a great mind. So that's good question. So that, that Jennifer, were you going to draft something up or as a group do that. Yeah, I will. Maybe we just send our comments to Jennifer as ideas. I'm going to go back and listen to that webinar to see what they did in Tennessee. Yeah, I should private land. And he will go back and listen. Yeah, because it was right on the campus, right on the edge. Yeah, and the, and the campus that helped keep the price down because the, because it was campus land, and they said the developer took all the risk. Right. And I think in the years that would revert to the university, which is what fieldstone does. Right, right. Um, you want to talk briefly about a survey. And, and who might, who might initiate this is that something that CRC takes, takes on. Or CRC with, with the housing trust to develop a question. Are we, are we what we want to start developing a survey. But if you planning board also, or no. Again. Well, should we include the planning board also in the, or just affordable housing trust. I don't know. I might have some thoughts on it. Because they are starting to talk about, you know, looking in depth that that opportunities for housing. Right. Right, because especially thinking in terms of what areas are for what and where my different people prefer to live. Do they want to be closer to downtown. Do they want to be closer to the university, do they want to be closer to the school, you know what. The planning board is might make sense to include them at least in the initial conversation to see what the interest is. I could draft up a little note that comes from, you know, I'm sure Mandy would want to look at it. The planning board for just as a conversation topic. And I might add that I can do that. Okay, there you go. I think manager and I had actually drawn up questions, long ago and I'll go back and look at them, because that survey was going to look at asking people what do you love living about living in Amherst what do you not love and you know things like that and what stops you from wanting to from being able to live here so and then we never use that survey we ended up creating more the rental registration so I'll go and look at that because we may already have a pretty good states, you know, survey already have designed. Yeah, good. Yeah, the hard part is the analysis as we saw in this time like I've learned from last time they should be two people looking at it maybe they're two different bodies like especially if it's like affordable and planning board and us that that would make it easier there's no conflict or a quorum problems and all that and we could have three sets of eyes, looking at the survey results. I will, we just look at my calendar sorry. I'm going to be out of town for a couple of weeks, but we have a CRC meeting on the 21st and and I'd be happy to draft up a statement that we have a CRC meeting on the 21st of September. Oh, September. Okay, so that was nice. Okay, way ahead that way ahead. And maybe by then we could, we could have something that we would be happy to send along to the planning board to say, you know, have you given any thought to the kind of housing or the locations of housing that people might want. Is that really what we're asking them. Can you say that again. Dear planning board. What kind of housing do you think people want anyway. Cracking. I think you really need to ask people affordable. You know, there are all kinds of people, students, not, you know, I'm not even talking about students right now I'm only talking about families or partnerships or stuff like that. Households. Yeah. Households, thank you. That's great. That's much better. So, how are you going to get it to households. I think that are people who participate in the mobile market because they have to get their their renting their paying grant or maybe some of them even own. I know some of the people who come to the survival center own their homes, but need to be there. So how are we going to get it out to those folks. It's just the usual folks that we address, and we're not going to learn anything about new about housing or neat real needs if we only ask those of us that are already on council committees, etc, etc. What if we had on paper surveys that you could take to the mobile market. That'd be interesting and they'd have to be in at least languages. Yeah. I think about all the additional work we're adding because if you want to reach people. Okay, that's just the regular folks who I hear you I hear you but I was the one who spent hours and I appreciate that and you won't be this time by the time it's done you won't be here. The point whatever I'm doing is for always the good of everyone. So anyway my point being that it's not an it's not an either or path like all I'm saying is that you really want to reach more people. We're figuring out another challenge or obstacle and it's not either or we can find a new way maybe we sit with iPads and have them enter it there we need to find a solution instead of just saying oh what are we going to do then or you know what I'm saying. I know what you're saying and what I'm talking about is finding ways to be inclusive to people that normally represent. Okay, all right, go ahead. You're both talking over each other so yeah I'm going to stop because this is an asshole conversation. Um, no I think that we're trying to hear you, you're talking about the outreach strategies and I think Shawnee had started talking about sort of the types of housing. Much work. And it's not. Can I speak now. I'm 100% all about the inclusion and I'm saying that I'm 100% with you that we need to get more people who do not speak and, and we have to consider the fact that we do not have the town staff, we are going to have to do it. How do we get those people and consider the staff I'm not saying because it's a lot of work we should not do it I'm saying that it is a lot of work. So let us think about let's think through how do we get more people and in terms of getting different people. I was thinking of using maybe the schools as a way to send it out to the teachers or firefighters, you know send it to the heads of the departments to send it out to the people and to go to mobile markets and get. So definitely I'm not really I'm talking about churches and talking about, you know, BBA and all these different associations reaching out to them so that they can send it out to the people. We actually did do family outreach, we actually did do family outreach for for the rental registration and where the person over there I forget her name, she was helping the people fill it out. So there are ways to do it I'm not saying it's a lot of work so we shouldn't do it but I just don't appreciate that you would automatically assume that that's what I'm saying is because it's a lot of work I'm not interested in doing an inclusive job. That's what I was reacting to, because we're both saying the same thing. Are you good with that or are you okay, okay. Sounds like there was definitely work to be done and probably the 21st of August is the time that if I remember that this topic comes back up again or should be anyway, if we want to keep it moving. Switch gears and, and ask if anyone wants to make a motion that we adopt the August three 2023 meeting minutes. Were there any corrections to those that need to be made. No corrections. Then I move that we adopt the August. The 2023 meeting minutes. Okay, all in favor let's see Shalini. Upstanding just because I was in there I did read them but I'm standing. Hi. Jennifer. Yes. And is also a yes. So those past with one abstention. And I don't have to say that. Oh yeah. Oh yeah one one. One abstention and one absent. Great thank you. I'm not going to preview the next agenda. I think that's the chairs thing. And there were no items that were 24 hours in advance that I'm aware of. I don't have any announcements. And I would, does anybody have any last minute anything you want to add to the conversation. No, you went to the 21st, but we are meeting on the seventh right. I may or may not be able to make it. So we will pick up the nuisance by law then. I think Mandy said she. I should have it ready. I should have our corrections or our notes for it ready for the seventh. But that it's pretty likely that we'll get discussed until the 21st. Okay. The end of the year is getting really close. So I'll try to, I'll try to get those corrections made in instead of a clean tax. And put that back in the back in the packet. Thank you. Any other additions corrections. Can we adjourn early? Thank you. Well done. Yeah. Thank you all. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.