 We're going to have this fantastic panel and then we'll take a little break and then we will read at 3 p.m. at 6 o'clock and then have another break for dinner. And just another reminder to everybody please come up here sometimes. And then it is my absolute pleasure, honor and so delighted to welcome Indie Star Arts Journalist, Wei Chen, who's moderating this panel. I'm very excited. I think I'm going to be able to talk about this idea of like a hurricane where it's like everything's surrounding the actual thing and you know like an emptiness like on things like so. I think like this is more of an art. I've been able to do everything except for see the actual play. I'm so excited. I wish you guys would have put on the play again or something like that where you can see the play. You get everything about it. You know, people use social media or go online and just see all this kind of controversy started by these two critics. So I'm very happy that we guys are here to talk about this play and then all the things that's going to happen after these two critics were used to review. So we want you to introduce yourselves and just start talking about this really, really, really interesting play. Sure. My name is Hallie Gordon. I'm the Artistic and Education Director for Steppenwolf for an Adult at Steppenwolf Theatre Company. I'm a producer, a director and programmer for Young Adult Theatre. My age group that I work for is 8th and 12th grade. Great. Hi, I'm Lisa Cortez. I'm also from Chicago. I am a director and also the head of MFA Directing at the Theatre School at DePaul University and I'm the Artistic Director for Chicago Playworks. Many of you will be at the Theatre School at DePaul University in a couple of days, I think, driving up to 65 for the TWA USA conference run by my major colleague, Ernie Nolan. And I was the director of this modern art at Steppenwolf, how it was crazy enough to hire me. So actually, I want to start with expert from the review that was in the Sun Time. So I'm hoping that the paper reading about a play, you know, a lot of people will read reviews of plays they've never seen. So this is what she said about this modern art and we can learn about what the play actually is about and what the message actually is. So I don't know how long she's been at the Sun Time, but she said this play is wildly wrong-headed and potentially damaging work when that fails to call vandalism by its name and rationalizes an attempt to justify vandalism in the most irresponsible ways. It also trades in all the destructive sanctimonious talk about minority teens invariably being shut out of opportunities and earmarked for prison. In a way that only reinforces stereotypes and negative destinies, kind of productive and extreme, it deepens and solidifies racial and class divisions in a sense of hopelessness among those who need to dwell on impossibility. And why she's just older, she's just white. Chris Jones from the Chicago Tribune writes, Graffiti comes at a price that can be invasive, self-important, and disrespectful of the property of others, and plenty of struggle in the folks have had to clean graffiti off something they own or love. Graffiti can be inartful for goodness' sake. More importantly yet, graffiti had the effect of making people feel unsafe in the city and terrified people. It was only when public officials declared themselves determined to wipe it out that the city's finally came back to life with broad benefits. There's no real time...let's see, let's see. So there's no real time connection with graffiti, and we support its production, which really bug me, actually. Although I did admire the acting and the way Port disconnects these artists to the audience, at one point the characters all provide a lesson in how to create graffiti, all those missing handy-dels spray cans to the audience. Yeah, I was curious about that part of how he was bummed out that there was no... I should first of all say Chris Jones is a friend, any of us who work in Chicago theater we're a community, and we both know Chris and we both know Petty, and they've both been in the papers for a long time, and Chicago has a real history with the critical community started by Richard Christensen, where the critics are really part of the community. It's not like in other cities that I've lived in that will go unnamed. So the first thing to say is that these are folks that we know, but I was curious about Chris's idea of there being graffiti on the stage, because one, it's toxic, you know, like the fumes, and then two, you know, that they were actors, and they weren't graffiti on the stage. And graffiti art is hard. It's an art skill, it's a skill in an art form. So this is modern art. It's about four young graffiti artists in Chicago who set out to tag the sign of the new modern art institute, and it's based off of recent events in 2010. Right, so this is a... For those of you who don't know, this is modern art. It's based on two events. These were taken from interviews from many graffiti artists around the city based on this graffiti crew, that graffiti bond outside of the art institute in Chicago, the new modern name, which was a $300 million building. And just as it opened, they graffitied their names over the student entrance and put this as modern art. So it was a political act that they wore, the reason they were doing it. It wasn't random graffiti as these reviews would lead you to believe. It was a very specific act of saying, we are not invisible, we live in the city, and we will be heard. And that's what the play was about. Yeah, the play was about how they came to that moment, how the graffiti crew came to that moment, and then the fallout from that moment, because both the reviews will say that there was no fallout. A group of friends, four friends, the groups worked together, created together, ate together, lived together, and then after this event went underground and dispersed. And though none of them went to jail or were still underground, the statute of limitations has not run out. And I'll be interested to see what happens when 2017 comes around and they can come out and what will happen. I'm waiting for them. How did Stefan Wolf come in contact with the writers in her studio, and what do you guys decide to commission this play? Sure. Well, Catango Ball is the artistic director of Young Chicago Authors and founder of Louder Than Bomb. And so he is well versed in youth programming and hip-hop culture. And Idris Goodwin, who's playwright, has worked under Kevin and they came to me with this idea. And I thought it was a beautiful story and really interesting. And I came from a place of not understanding really what graffiti art is and being very curious. And generally that's how I program things. Things that I don't understand is what I like programming. And so I wanted to learn more about this world that I didn't know about. And so they came to me, we commissioned them. We did a workshop. We got into the Voices and Visions at the Kennedy Center. We did a workshop there and a reading. Someone's going to have heard that reading. And then we did another workshop at Stefan Wolf and then the show went on. Do you have any idea that there would be pushback, graffiti, being... Yeah, I knew. We weren't kidding ourselves. I mean, I think we knew there was specific, like the moment that is referred to about the showing young people how to graffiti and the tools that are needed. We knew there would be a lively, I would say a lively conversation about it. We did not know that we would be railed against because of our inability to have a moral compass with the show. And I think my surprise came out of the fact that the critics really felt like they had the right to say what was appropriate for children, for teenagers, and what wasn't. And to me that's not reviewing the play. That comes from a very personal place. And I will say too that the critics who come and see these shows do not come through student performance. I think Hedy may now, Chris did not. They come to public performances with the general public. They do not go to our teacher residencies. They do not go into the classroom. They do not stay for the post-show. They do not read our study guide. They don't go through our teaching artists training programs. They don't know any of the work that goes into what it takes to put a show up for young people. So what I found controversial was, not whether they liked the play or didn't, but that they were saying, I mean, Hedy's title was what was Steppenhold thinking. And to me that's a judgment that goes far and beyond what any critic should be critiquing. Well I think what's interesting, I mean the reason this turned into a firestorm is because I mouthed up on Facebook. I did. I mean I'm somebody who, well I'm currently, there's a lot of conversations going on around the country about diversity and inclusion. TCG, the Diversity Inclusion Institute, Lord, Actors Equity, US ITT, Broadway, the Broadway League. The conversation is happening all over the country and of course in TYA we'll say about diversity and inclusion and as somebody who's been part of those conversations a lot, I was, I just couldn't be quiet because I felt that this was not, I don't consider Hedy not like the show, you know, the direction is terrible. I mean that's fine, you know what I mean, or the acting is, you know whatever, we don't like the play. But the fact that it felt to me sensorial it felt to me like this content should not be put in front of young adults. Hallie Gordon doesn't know what she's doing. Steppenwolf is being irresponsible and that's when I said, well who, from what lens are Hedy and Chris looking at this? And they're looking at it from a very particular lens. It's a white upper middle class, slightly older. They're not much older than I am by the way. Which they'd love to know. Yeah. You know, it's like when Chris says people are terrified of graffiti, it begs the question which people, which people, or when Chris says our way in is through Selena who is a white, the white woman in the play. Like the other characters are all of color. So when you hear our way in is Selena, who is our? And it was that that I really kind of mouthed off about was this idea of who's deciding what's appropriate for young urban teenagers in the city of Chicago, one of the most complex, multicultural cities in the nation and also I think the segregated city. I mean what Hallie did when she programmed this piece is she kind of turned Steppenwolf inside out. You know the insiders were no longer your average theater-going audience and no longer the critics were used. The insiders were not the insiders. The insiders were the outsiders. And the insiders were now the teenagers who were coming to see the play. To some extent Hallie graffitied all over Steppenwolf. Steppenwolf graffitied on itself. And it was just interesting that afterwards it's like the play, what happened afterwards was like the play happened. You know that Hallie graffitied on Steppenwolf and Steppenwolf supported her in that and then the critics went crazy. You can't do that. You can't write that at Steppenwolf. You can't do that. So it's interesting the way in which kind of life in the dates are. So being in the business for a while, you have interaction with the critics and sometimes you get mixed reviews, positive reviews, negative reviews. This is the first time you've kind of knocked it out. Yeah. Because again, it's a critic's job to let us know what they think of the work itself. The artistry. But it's definitely the first time that it was, for me, a political fight. So yeah, it's the first time I've knocked off. What? No, it's the person we've mounted off about that. Hallie was prepared for it. I wasn't prepared for the reviews at all and I wasn't prepared for the level of the fight. Well, I have to say that the first review you read from the Sun Times and I was laughing because it's hard to take that seriously. I mean, it really, to me, it feels so over the top that, you know, I don't know, there's something unreal about that. If you had a written play about this, no one would believe it. It's just, it comes from so much fear, that it's not even a review. I mean, it's a therapy session. So it's hard to take that, the Sun Times preview series. And yet you still have to say something because when you have black and brown bodies on stage, young black and brown men on stage and the reviewer calls them urban terrorists, you have to say something. Which the Sun Times did. The Sun Times called it. And the Sun Times also, and I will say the Sun Times believed that they should be responsible for what's being printed. But the Sun Times likened it to gun violence. And, you know, to me, again, this says something, you know, in terms of where we're at, that graffiti art can induce that kind of fear, that the next step, if you see graffiti art, that means someone's going to get shot. That there's something, and obviously we know this, just look at the world, just look at America right now, that we're living in and that a piece of theater is supposed to speak to this, right? We are supposed to present work to young people that allows them an opportunity to think for themselves, to question, to wonder, to be passionate, to be curious. And this play did all of those things. And I think that there's fear in that. There's fear in opening the door to curiosity. When they feel, when adults feel that underlying it is the wrong message. So, Chris Jones, the writer for the Chicago Tribune, was pretty, like, responsive. Like, he was on Facebook and I don't know if they were like Facebook friends or anything like that. Oh, okay. And so, you know, he said, you know, the review wasn't about radius, that he's championed a lot of African-American thing lines, you know, a lot of African-American, you know, people of color on the stage. So, if it wasn't, you know, he didn't feel fair that you guys be defensive or pull that card. Yeah, I mean, Chris is a Facebook friend and he's a friend. We teach together at DePaul University and we were recently all three on a panel together. And, you know, again, the way critics work in the community, critics are a part of the community, they have really fantastic work. I just think he got this one wrong. You know, I just think that his point of view on this one was a little tenured and a slightly blind. But I think that he's, you know, I respect his opinion and I respect everything that he's done in Chicago. I just think it was on the long side of history on this one. But I will say that I'm, and I mean this authentically, I don't mean this sarcastically, I'm incredibly thankful for the reviews from the Trib and the SunTimes. And I will say, you know, Time Out, Reader, New City, all of those reviews. The fact, one, that they're coming to review T. White Theater is important and huge and allows the work to grow. And also, because they were so personally affected by it, it allowed for this conversation. It allowed for the community to really think about how we critique theater, how we critique new work and how we critique something that makes us feel uncomfortable. And what is that conversation and how do we have it with each other? How do we be in the same room and have it? How do we be in the virtual room and have it? But the fact that this conversation is happening and that Lisa and I are here today still talking about it I think is really important. You know, so I want to say I really have great respect and admiration for Chris, precisely because he did stay in the debate. He did get on Facebook and stay in the debate. I mean, he'll tell you, as he said in the panel, he said he just happened to be in a room alone in New York during the game. He was like, you know, we all know that moment. But he, he spoke that up when we were on, but I did respect him because he's continued to show up. We were all asked to be on a panel together at the call and he did show up. Chris has remained in the conversation and I respect that and admire it because that's when you actually have a healthy debate. You know, as opposed to Pachas. Rich also. So whenever we're talking about race, like people talk about, you know, how much of an authorship, like do you judge the thing itself? Or do you look at the color of the person who wrote it? You know, if you look at a play about an African American family, like sometimes there's a question that it was a white writer, it was a black writer and can I judge it based on the color of the writer? So if the king applied that to your credits, like if there were two black writers who didn't do the same thing, like how much does it matter the color of the skin or the people who wrote this? I don't think a person of color would have written what the sun and the clouds published. I just don't think it's possible. Not with that tone. There's a lot of injury in there in fear. I don't, I think that you know, I think anybody any color should be able to be a critic. I mean, I don't, but I think that, again, I think it's because it comes from perspective from this moral compass of this is not right in which these stories are important to be told. These people are exciting and real and authentic to the city and their voices are important. Again, it's okay if you don't like the play. If you didn't think it was right for whatever reason, that's fine. But this story is valuable to the community. Yeah, I mean, I agree with Callie. I don't think that a person of color would have written a Sun Time's Review and if somebody had written similar reviews, whatever the color of the skin I probably still would have mapped off. So, as arts critic and reporter, I get really nervous when I write reviews sometimes and I get friends with a lot of librarians. If I wrote something bad about IRT or something like that, I don't know I've talked to Courtney and Janet and all the people all the time. So I feel really nervous. For me, it's my craft and that kind of unleashes and that hopefully people like my review and then people hate it. It's like, oh my god, I see words. There's just two writers, they're just trying to do their job and then people kind of scroll around and they raise cards. So someone's eyes, I sympathize with just a writer trying to navigate and being truthful to their opinion and not just being nice and trying to please everyone at the time. Yeah, I hear what you're saying. Again, I would say this to Chris and I would say to him in front, I think that a writer in a city like Chicago has a responsibility to think about the totality of the city that he or she is speaking for. It doesn't mean that the point of view has to be so I'm talking about content, I'm not talking about aesthetics. Aesthetics, again, have at it. I'm talking about whether or not something is valid to be honest with whether or not this topic is valid on the stage for this audience. But I think when, it's funny that I mean, I'm not sure. But I think that as theorists, we are used to people being against it. I think sometimes if the critic says, hey, guess what? We think you're wrong. I kind of go, well, you can take some, too. I don't know. I think I mean, I think just, I think it's challenging for artists because this is in print. And this is and it's important. It's important for audiences. It's important for ticket sales. It's important to the artists involved. It's important whether a new play gets done again. It's important whether a theater decides to do a new work or not do a new work. So I think all those things are important. And so what was fascinating is that the theater community lashed back and said, this is too important just for it to stay with these two reviews. And that's where the conversation came out of. And I think that I think we're very lucky at how close the theater community is in Chicago, but I think they basically said enough is enough. And I think we're allowed to, just like the critics are allowed to say what they say and Eddie and Chris have had it be right to write what they wrote. We have every right to talk about how that makes this feel and how that makes the community of people they're talking about feel. It's important for that community to talk about it as well. I think it's so interesting this is a play about the relationship between artists and the people who act as gatekeepers and people who decide who comes and who's not. I think traditionally journalists and arts journalists have thought of themselves as gatekeepers in certain ways. We validate what we kind of purity in the arts scene. And this is really interesting to see talking about history, the idea of an artist making this mark on history. You know, graffiti is marked in a legal spot. It gets reported, the property owner needs to pay a fine if they don't do anything about it. So it'll be often like one or two, three days and so the relationship between kind of visual art and history. So there's a scene where JC one of the graffiti artists. So there are three graffiti artists and the fourth character is the lookout. Yeah, the lookout. JC, he kind of he wants to make this mark on history so he says, legends stand on their work when you discipline yourself to become a great artist. Legendary status will be left to those who write history. And then seven of our main characters says well what if people who write history are some narrow minded busters of stake and late passes on what's fresh. JC says the hope is to be great enough, to be disciplined enough and put in so much work that my legacy will be undeniable in history or right itself. Seven says I feel you, JC and you my man and all, but I'm saying fuck those who write history. I'm saying I want to do something that will have an impact now, not years from now you know, because now it's where we live and now it's messed up and now it's the only time we've got, you know, that better than anyone so he says history. So that could be a comment for us museums but also arts critics as well. Can you tell me a little bit more about the content of the play? Just in terms of like this idea of the people who write the history, you say this is what happens you know, Chicago's theater scene. I mean I can see that within the play, within the play there's and speak to us too within the play there's a debate about where and how art happens and who legitimizes art and I think the graffiti writers, there are graffiti writers that do permission walls, there are graffiti writers that do mural, there are graffiti writers who go down to Miami during our Basel and couldn't work, it stays at there are other graffiti writers some of those graffiti writers will say it's not really graffiti unless it's illegal some graffitiists describe it as it's not graffiti unless it's illegal practice other words it's public art. So there's a big conversation about the relationship between graffiti art and permanence and what constitutes a piece of art if it's impermanent is it a piece of art I think those of us in theater would argue yes if it's illegal is it a piece of art so I think there's a lot of conversation between permanence art and legitimacy in the piece in terms of I think too in this particular scene he was also talking about the fact that he wants to make history and he's alive not when he's dead that he wants people to see and hear him now and there's again that goes back to the sense of not being heard and not feeling like you are going to be part of these graffiti artists in real life and in play know the canon of art history art and they know it very well but nobody knows their canon nobody knows their art nobody knows the famous graffiti artists that started in the late 70's and 80's in the boroughs of New York and they tell us who they are you know and so they feel marginalized on many levels you know on what they look like and what they do and I think that's what he is frustrated with it's so interesting because that question as a critic it makes me stress out if I write my thing it's interesting because to some extent and I think you're trying to get at this the thing to do with a museum is to pay you pay a fee and the thing to do with a review is you read the review and you take it a little bit but the thing to do with a museum is not to write on the outside of it and the thing to do with a review is not to talk off on Facebook about it it's just interesting because the whole kind of interaction is really about who gets to say what when and where you know so from that that is the core of the play itself and is the core of the controversy that happened after which is the the theater critic said this and usually that would be the end of it right because that you know we don't generally respond nor should necessarily you know me but in this case a bunch of us did respond and so that to some extent it's like scribbling on the outside of the museum it's going against the norm in order to in order to ultimately bring up a count in order to create a counter narrative final graffiti is a counter narrative to the narrative of the city of Chicago the argument on Facebook was a counter narrative to the the unified critical point of view about whether or not this was appropriate on the stage how has the way you've looked at theater criticism changed in the past like ten years you know Facebook and Twitter and you know like other bloggers are you interfaced with now are the critics still as powerful and as many as they used to be before how does this change I don't know I mean I think it's a I don't you know I try not to overly pay attention to I mean this is a this is a very special this is a very special case but I don't I don't you know I mean you know I think I think that as an as an artist not as a producer programmer but as an artist I think it's better than that aside you know I think as a producer and a programmer it's it's challenging and I feel I feel like the Chicago public school district I feel very fortunate in that they trust the work that Steppenwolf for young adults does they don't those teachers don't necessarily read reviews and then work their tickets but we were almost sold out before we even started marketing this is modern art we were a 500 seat theater which we normally play don't open the balcony we had to open the balcony this is modern art because it was the first play that was a play that was actually talking about visual art and so we had art schools coming and art classes coming and everyone got a script and had a time everyone loved it everyone knew the age appropriateness of it everyone got stuck you know there was so there was all of that involved in it and so you know the fact that it got a bad review or controversial review usually does not matter the interesting thing about this is that schools who came and brought their students then read the review because they heard about the controversy spent classroom time discussing and analyzing it and really having a really interesting robust conversation about what their students saw and what the critics saw we got many letters from students and teachers around this and I had high schools and universities from all over the country calling asking for the script because they were reading the reviews and they wanted to teach it and they're in their class and they wanted to have an open conversation about art criticism and so I mean that's just awesome because DePaul alone I taught it in one of my classes the reviews people would seem to play Chris taught it in his class Coyopas who runs free street taught it in her class you know what I mean so that's that DePaul alone I guess what's different now is I think critics still have power and may not have said anything I think you know I was fighting for the audiences that weren't being seen by the critics and I was also fighting for the fact that I wanted a place to do this kind of work I wanted theaters to get I wanted theaters to get scared of programming new work about that makes people uncomfortable because it's essentially I would hate to see a smaller theater theater that isn't as well insulated as several decide not to do a play that is this is modern art or work this is modern art because of fear that the critics might shut it down but what I would say that the critics what is different now is that Facebook provides a platform by which if you want you have something to say you can whereas I'm writing a letter to the editor may never have made the paper I will also say that I think you know the reason this show is targeted I'm sure the review would have been somewhat different this was from an adult I think the reason it was targeted was because Steppenwolf Young Adults presents itself as an educational program and with that comes a certain amount of responsibility as you all know whenever you're doing work for young people there's a certain amount of responsibility involved and so the lens in which this play was being reviewed was through that lens the unfortunate part was they never saw the work involved like I mentioned earlier so I do think that this is specific because we are saying this is a show for young people it's about these artists that do something illegal and get away with it though there are repercussions for that one there's you know one loses his life basically one loses all his friends doesn't have a job can't paint anymore and one actually learns self confidence and understands and is excited by the fact that he is now being asked to do permission walls meaning he's getting paid and he likes being able to sign his name for real as opposed to a false identity so I think again our kids none of our kids walked away saying where's the spray paint can I want to go spray paint something but all of the kids that we worked with walked away with this idea of their voice and how important it is to follow your passion and what that means and what does it mean to be in a world in which there are certain areas, certain people, certain places that you can't do that and what does it mean to fight for to be able to do that and so that's what they came away with and not to mention the fact that they now go on the train they now drive in their car with their parents and they see the city in a totally different way and this happened for adults too who said I was on the train and I saw this graffiti and I saw the initials I knew who you were talking about I knew what it was and I wondered how did they get up there so they started viewing their city that they had grown up in that they had lived in totally different ways and to me that's such an amazing beautiful thing to me what the play did is it made this city legible I mean it really did the city that you're not used to you're like oh what's that and then suddenly my kids are like oh mom that's any law crew or that's so-and-so crew mom that piece got buffed in three weeks they buffed it why'd they do that because the cities are encoded the cities are encoded and there is a narrative that's put forth by the powers that be in a city and then there's a whole a whole other narrative or a number of narratives going on so it just made the city legible to many people that's what I'm saying oh yeah the argument is reminding me a little bit of when Elvis first removed his pelvis don't do that don't show the kids don't show the kids that graffiti don't show them that you know I also protest that I think that young teenagers have minds of their own and I think that the incredible care that Stefan will put into everything surrounding the production the study guides, the talk backs the education in the schools the workshops I mean no kid that saw the show oh yeah don't do something illegal now and every kid knew it was illegal what's going to happen to the play do you have any idea? I don't, I mean we had a couple of people ask for it we've sent it out, I don't know again this is an interesting conversation it falls into that weird area we commission produced plays that is for a specific age group which I mentioned 8th through 12th grade so it's too old 8th through 7th and younger but the theater you know community as a whole use it as TYA so it may not go on the main stage of a regional theater so it's in a weird place where a lot of our show I mean there's only a few of our shows that have actually like The Bluest Eye and a couple of other ways that we commission and produce that have gone on to a more general audience rather than just a specific age group so I don't, we'll see we'll see so can you talk more about how this play in this games um I'm going to ask a question should we open it up because I just on that second deduction that I would love to hear about what strategies or what offerings would you not only in production but in outreach knowing what you know now and in the second life of this produce somewhere else what were the things that you would share with those producers you know you gotta be brave I mean I think you know you have to I think you have to go we thematize our season each year this thing is create a movement the art of the revolution so obviously we did that we open with Animal Farm a new adaptation of Animal Farm and you know here's animals killing animals and nobody really care about that so I mean I think so we you know so we really program this season in conversation about what does it mean to have a revolution which was Animal Farm and why do we have revolutions what are the importance of that and what is the cautionary tale that comes out of that right and then this is Modern Art was how do we create that movement what does that look like and feel like what do you need to have a voice in something and I think that in terms of in terms of guiding and framing it for your audience and for your teachers and students we found that very helpful I think that it might be interesting to figure out how I mean I'm thinking of the critical community right now and I don't know anything I'm not a producer well I am but not for later that Chicago Playworks isn't dependent on reviews but I would be interested in if I were producing someplace else seeing if I can get features about graffiti or graffiti artists in that setting trying to create a conversation in advance in the newspapers and in the media about graffiti and graffiti art so there's a context bubbling ahead of time and I don't mean that into which the piece might come I don't know I think as a director I would just say the charisma and presence of the actors who are talking to that audience are really really important it's important that the people who are in the audience see themselves on stage I need other questions you've spoken about the theater community response and the education community response what was the museum's response what was the visual arts community response both at the San Antonio University the art institute right from the get go we were in conversation with David in the script we told them we were doing this we actually had an open reading of the Museum of the Temporary Art in which we invited other museums to we were in communication with the community programs coordinator the educational coordinator we were ready to do a big panel with Kevin Koval and Miguel who is a graffiti artist and also teaches at the art institute and the script kept going moving up higher and higher within the theater internally as are many arts organizations a very big bureaucracy well it got as high as it could go and they said no and so the panel no they said no to the panel and they said no to a partnership they said they said would we totally go ahead and produce the play goals and do that we we respect that there are still many hurt feelings in that institution to have this conversation which I found really interesting because of course the crew who worked in and I shouldn't say crew because that would be something else in this context but the staff that worked in the educational community programs area said this is exactly the conversation we need to be having where does art belong what does it mean if graffiti is inside does it make it graffiti we're having these conversations behind doors now is an opportunity to open it up but they just weren't ready they weren't ready I will say though that they did bring a group of students who work at the art they have their own kind of young council there to see the show during the post-show so it was a good it was a good conversation and I felt good on both sides of how we kind of cooperated we cooperated not to cooperate with each other so that was the institute and then what was the other part of it the larger art community oh yeah we got pushed back from MUL Medubo that's the graffiti crew that bobbed outside of the modern wing apparently the graffiti artists that we were based on who did that were not officially MUL crew members well this is so apparently this is what the elder this is all the vocabulary I just learned about this process the elder of the crew said they were on probation whether it's true or not that's what they said they hired a lawyer they went to Kevin the writer and said you know you're appropriating our name our likeness blah blah blah so we had a really great conversation we invited them to come see a rehearsal he did we were in really great conversation throughout the process and everything ended up working fine he loved the show he brought other graffiti writers to see it we ended up having the major national graffiti artists there on stage almost every graffiti artist that was actually mentioned in the play happened to be there one time we got them all up on stage on himself for a post-show conversation that was just incredibly incredibly moving that was an interesting controversy that ended up not being anything these artists are artists and their work matters to them again that was just another moment for us to be like that's right they're artists everyone who's a part of that art making needs to be a part of this experience we had artists coming to see the show that had never walked in the door of Steppenwolf Theatre I mean I have to say that about 50% of our audience had never walked in the door of Steppenwolf the most class, race diverse audience age diverse that I've ever seen and the number first of all the story of the controversy about this play would make a great play yeah I'd like to hear from everybody on the panel about the idea of Talia you said a number of times the critics you really blasted you were not aware of nor did they participate in any of the preparatory work that you did with the schools and those things one of the rules with the constraints are the boundaries of inviting critics to those type of things first of all and just a quick anecdote in the city I'm from major critics who refuse to come we send them tickets they say we don't do children's plays one lady made a famous statement by saying oh it is about time for us to review Metro Theatre I think I'll send my 12 year old daughter so how do you guys think those kinds of barriers so let me just repeat the question for the live streamer here so this question is about inviting critics or behind the scenes looks for more insight to kind of draw a review and so what are the new policies and how does that work I think you can absolutely invite them and they most likely won't come I had a conversation with Chris Jones about this and he says that's not I don't do that with any theater I mean he reviews a lot of TYA theater I don't see these kosher discussions at any theater or adult or otherwise and I'm like well fair views then don't be the moral compass of white so I think there's got to be a compromise on both sides I totally nor does here any other critic probably have the time to invest in that so then I think they have to come from a perspective that they don't want to invest in that so then what does that mean in terms of how they review the play and again I will say the critics have been so important to the success of step north young girls programming without a doubt they have really elevated the program to the national level in which the work that we do is important and done again and that is valuable and that is of course why you want to get the critics there is to kind of raise the bar and raise the level always invite them always invite them and I will say one thing there is an amazing critic in Chicago and her name is Ada Gray and she is about 11 years old and she and I would give anything she would review a step north I don't know she was even at Animal Farm and she didn't review it but she is amazing and everyone blogs about her everyone posts her reviews she's been doing this since she was six years old and it's because the community has said this is important her voice is important so make that 11 year old voice important possibly her like Banksy exits through the gift shop the documentary about the London and whenever somebody watches the documentary they think oh that's so many of them work with their modern art and yet when you put it on a live stage it becomes this huge controversy and I just wanted to get your opinion on what makes it okay to be in a film though it's true that it's documentary what makes it okay to be in a film but it's not okay to be performed well Banksy has achieved a kind of fame and Banksy is an accepted artist right now you know what I mean Banksy is mainstream we're not talking about Banksy we're talking about 22 year old young graffiti artists who in the middle of the night in the middle of the snowstorm went out and wrote their names on the modern wing the newly opened modern wing with artist Joe Chicago Banksy has already achieved legitimacy so I don't think it has to do with film versus theater I think it has to do with where the artist is the larger community and whether or not he or she is accepted although I think that that film is helpful and a lot of our teachers before they came and saw this showed their students that film I think that was really great so the question is now we're good thank you Keras I have to tell you I'm really conflicted about this whole discussion about the show about enhancing people feeling it's their right to tax private property in their own way I just that's a whole very interesting conversation to have the conversation about criticism of theater because you know I wrestle with this because I find criticism to be to be a personal opinion a social commentary I think as well it could be kind of viewed as and to be upset about social commentary on social commentary is kind of odd for me in a way I don't know I mean I really kind of understand what you're talking about when you talk about the perspective that that social commentary comes from and whether or not it's appropriate to be printed in the newspaper I just go back to Frank Rich who is now writing editorial opinions for the New York Times to go from writing theater reviews to social commentary so I kind of wrestle with that idea about saying you have a responsibility to a much greater idea of what this play is and what it could say versus writing your own kind of personal commentary I mean once you write it you have to live up to your own responsibilities to what you said I suppose but I'm just saying I'm wrestling with this discussion a lot about how to hold someone responsible for the future of the play and the future of Chicago Theater and I kind of wrestle with all of this those were really big words that you were using there that these people you said hold in their hands well I think the reviewers aren't on the opinions page but they're opinions I know but the reviewers are on the editorial page right there in the arts page and I think reviewers in other words the public doesn't see them in terms of the readership I don't think that the readership views a review the same way they view an editorial on the editorial page which is very clearly one person single at point of view and there's usually a couple of them that may argue with one another but I absolutely agree with you I think that Teddy and Chris have every right to say what they want to say and they have a very large platform on which to say it we have every right as artists to produce the work we want to produce if somebody picks it up and I think then also the community has every right to talk about you know opinions in the end I wrestled a lot with it it is very interesting because in a way what happened is mirroring what the conversation is in the play which is an important conversation to have I just want to say one more thing at lunch today we're talking about Montreal and I mentioned just out of my own mouth that I was shocked when I went to Montreal for the first time because the city is covered in graffiti the city is covered in graffiti and it isn't what we're used to seeing in our country at all and you know I don't know if I had an opinion on that it just was very striking to me to see the proliferation and how it was as graffiti as art versus gang tags or whatever you know which are completely different things as well Miami too there's a district of Miami that is absolutely all permission walled up it just depends on where you're going the city's sense of graffiti is fair news it's a complicated conversation because a lot of graffiti art is bad you know there's no question about it and do you want graffiti on your garage door do you want it on your business all really important questions to ask and the other important question to ask is why is it happening what is lacking why is it happening can I just say something about you're talking about the global criticism I think right now arts critics we're like dealing with this existential crisis where we're caught between newspapers which are shrinking newspapers don't hire arts critics I'm an arts reporter I'm not a arts critic this has been a topic within the Indianapolis community but there's some critics maybe in Indianapolis Star you some critics do not I'm an arts reporter so I kind of amplify the voice of the artists which I think is great but what we're kind of caught in the section of front-page news and other things that drive a lot of web traffic are we use more central than arts which is a niche category within mainstream newspapers and then I'm complimenting that in the arts community that has a very interesting relationship with critics as well and so I think someone who's looking for arts communities to say hey can you help fund our jobs can you help support us writing about arts because I'm an arts lover I want to write about arts but people over in the newspaper world aren't really seeing my value the new millennial readers they're not paying for arts critics and you know this kind of stuff happens and you know the relationship between critics and the arts community gets really freight so I think right now I'm just beginning I don't know what we have in this conversation in 10 years in 10 years it'll just be opinions on paid on Facebook there won't be this profession anymore so I just think it's interesting that that's what's going through my head you know they're older I don't know any younger full-time like if I'm 11 years old can I have a profession based on that that's great because of the YouTube stuff I don't know if this profession is very much an outdated species right now I think there's an issue that has made me so proud of this the outcome of this in terms of the response and then the conversation what I think is too perfect about this is that it allows you to have a very public conversation in a variety of ways which was exactly what you had hoped and wanted to have happen so I think that's a huge benefit for this I think what has me concerned about our field is when we are trying to present material that may be considered more controversial even for younger audiences and presented in such a fear-based climate that the gatekeepers rather than allowing this kind of public discourse shut it down and I'm thinking of you know two plays that we all know the play Along Came Tango and the play The Transition of Duke and Pino both of the two plays that were from much younger audiences have had significant development in these kinds of formats but as we know from recent events we have had a great deal of controversy about even letting them get to the point where an audience can have that kind of discussion and I think nothing has the volatility of issues of particularly issues of gender identity or those hot-button things that touch on what may even be such a not-so-main importance of homophobia, etc. that just flash points but rather than just looking at this issue within this particular context of this age group what would you have to say to those writers out here who are looking to explore controversial material or material that is so current right now in terms of producing this kind of work in a fear-based climate? They have to do it I mean they have to do it and it you know you know hopefully they can find a either an artistic partner or an artistic organization that can support that because there's no other way we cannot not do it and we will fail and we will succeed but it's those this is why we do work for young people because if they're not talking about it at schools and they're not talking about it at home and they're trying to talk about it with each other they have to have a safe place they have conversations about things that are important to them and that matter so you're going to have to take the risk and you're going to have to take the risk that parents may not like it teachers may not like it school officials may not like it critics may not like it but what if the students do what if the students are changed by well then it's worth it I think that it's interesting because there's not a lot of theater for young adults how many there are in the country but that seems to be an arena that's a little bit more for us we're talking about specific teenagers yeah I'm talking about teenagers high school, upper junior high and high school because there seems to be if you look at the novels they're reading there seems to be a little bit more play but unfortunately there's not a lot of theater for young adults I think what you get into because I might finish Call of Play which is for elementary school kids and that's a tougher community especially it's so funny those of you who are involved in TYA and acetige and have traveled you see that we are really we protect our kids like nobody's business in the United States and America and I think that in many countries what would be considered an adult in law for example or maybe in a couple of places I've read I can't imagine a theater producing because they seem so tough I think we potentially over protect our children certainly I think where there's been controversy in Chicago it's been around Albany Park or it's been where teenagers are actually grappling with some tough territory and that's actually what Chris has generally spoken out and said wait a second, wait a second what are we doing in this but it's an area that seems a little bit more forced and like how can we make more theaters for young adults where if we can't do it for the elementary school kids can we start in junior high can we start in that age and you're already thinking about gender identity sexual identity sexual violence rebellion against the system all of those things but I think I agree with you but I think we must do it thank you for saying that One observation and welcome to a few observations first I think it's remarkable that theater still has this power for forever theaters have been a vehicle for shaping up the status quo with an existing power structures and in this day and age where I think we all feel so marginalized because we're no longer the only game of town that it can still do this is really, really gratifying and it seems, so the second thing is there's a really interesting series of rebukes stacked upon rebukes in this story the first tagging of the outside world brand new rental piano was a rebuke from the have nots to the have and then the creation of this play one could argue was a rebuke from a have to another have and then the writing of the review and then the response to the review it's an incredibly public series of comments and criticisms that's so surprising and wonderful however, wherever you find yourself falling in the sort of socio-political spectrum representative that's great and also Kevin I would say that Kevin Kovall the rebuke on the outside of the museum the rebuke from the the civic community to the rebukeers then Kevin writing the play as a rebuke back, interviewing graffiti writers, rebuke back and then Steppenwolf producing it's true, in a way Steppenwolf is that institution that the people in the play are talking about yet it is so easy, art is the funeral of the art institute of Chicago yes, which is what I thought was so kind of cool about it, but I think that it makes me feel like we're in a comedy of manners I'd be cute it's Monty Plank it's like the way of the world I was very struck by I think that a quote or a quasi quote that one of you loved, you can't write this at Steppenwolf that is so deep to me because of course that suggests that it could have come what, with more feracity with more acceptance from another theater who, Albany Park Free Street I don't know, who and that Steppenwolf that began as this scrappy little completely iconoclastic let's push against all ethics and morals theater is now viewed as this bastion of upholding so that has got to rake you guys over the coals that rakes me over the coals historically I just think that's big stuff to unpack yeah, it is and I have to say that the support that we got from ensemble members was really incredible around this yeah yeah, it is very interesting just a couple things that it's exciting that the visibility of this and the dialogue back and forth in many venues has I think in many ways elevated the many other theaters that are also doing work for young adults across the country doing great and wonderful work but that this has been a spark point to start conversation and so in Steppenwolf being elevated to that kind of public discourse I hope that the rest can come up as well to that level of visibility because I think a lot of the work is invisible though it is high quality across the United States and then also talking back to playwrights being somebody who has recently been in conversation about the transition of Duda Picanho at People's Light and the, I'm going to put this in air quotes feasibility of that play I just want to say to the playwrights in the room that please take, please understand that in the word no there is also a communication of respect for the work that we don't, that in not asking you to change it to soften it or to water it down that that's also part of that no I know that that doesn't feel good receiving that and saying, you know, no I don't think we can do this in our community or I don't think we can do this in our community right now but that also means that your work maintains its integrity and and so I just, I hope for courage in finding the right, you know the right community and I hope that more communities recognize that if they don't step up or that they need to step up because we need more of those communities that will accept that Did you guys produce Transition Duda Picanho? We partnered with Gabe to get to New Vision's New Voices and then we produced a reading of it in a format I don't know how many people in the room are familiar with the theater of war but they go into communities of veterans with brief plays like Ajax they do a reading of the play with professional actors, the actors lead the stage they invite panelists who may be veterans themselves they may be spouses they may be medical professionals that are dealing with PTSD they offer their personal and then there is a facilitator who opens a dialogue amongst the panelists the community but that the artists step down and they usually don't participate in the conversation so we did the Transition Duda Picanho in that model of we presented the reading, actors left the stage, we had panelists there to respond to the work and then we had a conversation and it was so interesting that the conversation did not go to issues of the use of the word gay as an epithet or to sexual identity or gender identity it went to bullying and the vulnerability that it exposed from the individuals in that room some of them were our board members who are in their 70s some of them were very young and it ran the whole spectrum in between but it became a discussion of bullying and not about any of those things that everybody was afraid of putting on the stage in the first place One more question Is there anything else you guys want to say on the conversation? Thank you for having us