 Welcome everyone. This is Una Daly from CCCOER and I want to welcome you to our second webinar during Open Education Week. Happy Open Education Week to everybody and my colleague Kiri Dali who is the Digital Librarian for the Knowledge to Work project at Lord Fairfax Community College and also the VP of the CCCOER website for the last three years is going to be the moderator for today's webinar and she will introduce our three faculty who work in the administration of justice and we're very pleased to have them with us today. Yes, thank you Una. So our speakers today are Julia Ellis who is the program manager and faculty liaison and an adjunct campus faculty member for the Institute of Public Safety at Salt Lake Community College in Utah. We have Sean Faye who's a professor and an advisor for the criminal justice program at Montgomery College in Maryland and Michelle Ronda who is an assistant professor and the program coordinator for the criminal justice program at the Bureau of Manhattan Community College in New York. So we have some questions to kind of guide the conversation today or at least get us started. We'd like us like for you to tell us how long you've been teaching what courses you teach and anything we should know about the students at your college. Julia if you wouldn't mind starting. Yeah so I've actually been at Salt Lake Community College for 13 years. In the faculty side of the house it's been six years. I teach an introduction to criminal justice which covers our social science and diversity designations. It's not currently OER but one day will be and then I'm in development right now with the global ethics and criminal justice which will be OER and then also assisting on a first responders course that's going to be OER. Excellent thank you. Sean. I'm the coordinator for the criminal justice program up at the Germantown campus and I've been teaching in the program for about 11 years. Two years prior to that at Prince George's Community College which is one of the neighboring counties. I primarily teach our administration of justice which is the intro course as well as criminal law constitutional law and criminal evidence courses and we're still kind of in the early stages of development. We've developed probably about six of our courses in terms of Z courses but we're still moving forward with that. And Michelle? I've been at BMCC since 2014. We have a program of about 3,000 students, 40 part-time faculty and nine full-time faculty. The majority of our students are black and Latino. We're a Latino majority campus and about 70 to 80 percent of our students come from households earning less than $30,000 a year. I teach two courses primarily corrections and our course called Criminal Justice in the Urban Community which focuses on, really focuses on disparities in the criminal justice system. And we've developed a ZTC degree a zero textbook cost degree program. So a student could theoretically take the entire degree plan and not have to pay for any materials in their course. Awesome. So how are you each first introduced to OER and what motivated you to adapt it? Michelle if we'll just continue with you. So in the spring, I want to check my figure. Spring of 2016 our open knowledge librarian Jean Amaral came to us and asked us to participate because we had she had secured a grant for our college to develop OER courses and the criminal justice faculty were offered a training workshop and we got a stipend for participation. So to be honest part of the draw was the stipend for participation because we all feel like we are constantly asked to do more and not compensated for our time and it was summertime so that was particularly appealing to many of us. And we were really hungry for the opportunity to meet together and work on developing courses together because we never get to see each other. We get to see each other in the hallway or at a meeting but we hadn't had such a great opportunity to sit down and really talk about what we do and how we do it. So it was by the librarian and it was starting in spring 2016 and then really since then many of the other faculty have gone through the process but we started with six of us. Okay, Sean what about you and also for Julian and Sean did you partake in any incentive program like Michelle? So very similar ours started about probably about four years ago here at Montgomery College there was a couple of grants that were offered. Some of those were where faculty were asked to create OER materials and openly license them. Other ones were towards Z degree offerings so to try and locate and adapt materials. The college through the library and also our e-learning and innovations in teaching excellence office they offered some workshops and initially I was very hesitant. It's very easy to get a publisher's textbook and look through that and you know accept that but one of the things that they talked about in the workshop was the cost savings to students and after I went back and actually sat down and just thought about I mean we teach nine sections of criminal law a year and you know the textbook out of the bookstore was about $200 in addition and you know the numbers for that worked up to about $54,000 a year and so that's kind of what sparked my interest in terms of saving students money. Ours is very similar so we have a college-wide initiative that's been really supported well in our faculty development office. On a personal side of the house since 2009 I have been the individual responsible for coordinating and scheduling for our classes. I do a lot of faculty advising with our students and I'm responsible for making the connections with our textbook so with our textbook store excuse me and so I was very aware of our student demographics the struggles that they were facing the cost for a student that was going through our program and so personally I had been very motivated and spent a lot of time with publishing companies negotiating prices and seeing what are their opportunities and so when my leadership changed because my prior leadership didn't necessarily see all the positive things that this was going to offer students. We have a very small department in full-time faculty and so we're limited in the amount of time that we can allocate because they have committees that they have to be responsible to and as well as the classroom of students and so it wasn't until my new leadership a couple years ago that we're like this is something that we want to help achieve our students achieve for our students as well as giving a little bit more control back to the faculty because we would pick and choose through chapters and so we'd have these students go out and buy these textbooks and then they would kind of flip through some of the material and then the faculty are already doing so much additional work bringing content to the classroom and so once we started the process we kind of were able to see where kind of just taking over and eliminating that cost for this to who's actually was going to work out for us but it's a lot of work still a lot of work. So what OER materials are you using and what was the process of adopting OER like for you Sean if you want to start. So currently I'm using OER materials in two of my courses in the criminal law and the constitutional law and I was lucky enough that especially for criminal law I was able to find a criminal law OER textbook that was available it was available both through the university we discovered it through University of Minnesota and Sailor.org but that textbook covered most of the materials that we needed it was in some ways a little bit of a summation in comparison to some of the other texts the publishers texts but it provided all the information that we needed now for our course we teach it as criminal law and criminal procedure and so we did have to go outside to find some materials in regards to procedure we cover criminal procedure in terms of constitutional amendments so we found you know the fourth fifth six amendment materials through we were able to find that through the federal government's website so one of the great resources we found was through Congress's website they have the annotated version of the Constitution so they have each of the amendments with all the case law and it's up to date I was looking at it this morning and I think it's it's up to date as of fall 2017 so you know it doesn't get much more current than that even a publisher's text wouldn't have some of those cases in it and so that's what we've been primarily using for for those two and then I supplement the materials through PowerPoint presentation so I have those things that are specific to the Maryland state law so our statutory law and are able to summarize that through an additional presentation so your ancillary materials like testing slides and what you do those yourself yes I have I have I'm in the process of getting some of those licensed I haven't licensed them specifically OER myself what about you Michelle we have a variety of OER some folks are using in the intro to criminal justice there's some online textbooks that they found we use some articles sweat some it was particularly challenging to find videos of our Creative Commons license but we had a grant and we were working with the librarian and really I could not have done this without her she's a genius she's an OER genius and so she helped us walk through the process of making sure we had to document the license for every material we selected but in essence I have a link that I wanted to share with you all which is our entire degree plan in a course map so the six criminal justice courses are there but so too are things like Spanish government music statistics English speech so there's in there's a course map for every one of the courses in our degree plan with all the OER materials the only thing that is not included in that Google Doc is if someone created their own assignments or PowerPoints or quizzes we didn't embed those in there but if you're really interested I can put you in touch with the professors who crafted them because they have blackboard portable blackboard files read some glitches but I think we've worked it out so we can share those if anybody's interested well yeah if you could put that link in the chat box yes let's see challenging wrong this I'm going to mute myself so in case I curse okay we're good at reading lips though what about the materials here you think Julia um so I'm just gonna be really careful not to reiterate everything that they've said because staying here we found the same types of material we have spent a lot of time in development of our own material so really sitting down discussing objectives and then piecing that out to different faculty to go out and find additional resources with the challenge of finding videos and finding articles you know utilizing state and federal material that's obviously something that you know we need to relate to and then a lot of time of just taking our own area and the foundation that we built by using textbooks years after year our own practitioner type work and then taking all of that and creating material one of the things that I'm very interested to learn from Michelle is how they have kind of have this project management tool that they're using and how that's something that they can share with another institution because right now we're doing a lot of work with our e-learning area and so we're developing all of this material into institutional walls in campus and so I'm still learning a lot from this group as well as other workshops and things that are going on across the nation to understand what is truly open and so I think a lot of the work we're doing right now is you know institution wise but I need to learn and I would love to see the resources so that we can see how can we share this material and how can we adopt material that the other institutions are working on because I think that's going to be vital for us to sustain this. Michelle is that something you want to speak about maybe a process behind how your institution can use the Google Doc to share those or what's faster than like. Are you still muted Michelle? She is. Did I unmute myself? We were on the Achieving the Dream grant and so and we were working closely with with the librarian as I said to ensure that we had to you'll see if you look at the Google Doc we had to document the license for every single you know material we selected and sometimes we had to do some back and forth occasionally we would mark something as supplemental to indicate that it doesn't have an open license but we wanted to suggest it to students right so that was a little bit of a workaround and she really helped us she educated us on in some sense being able to verify for ourselves that we had something that was truly open but sometimes we would need her intervention either because it wasn't obvious on a website or we couldn't quite determine if we had the right licensing to be able to include it in our syllabus as a requirement so that was part of the process but I'll also say that we were really interested in developing our own resources there is no textbook for criminal justice in the urban community there there's none I mean some people teach it as multiculturalism and the criminal justice system right but if you look at the course map you'll see that it's a it's sort of urban sociology meets criminal justice and those of us who teach it are really super into it and we wanted to develop our own resources but at the current time those are not necessarily considered in the evaluation for promotion and tenure so and our program is new really knew all of us the whole group of us the full-timers have only been here I'm one of the oldest people around and I've only been here since 2014 so we're all more or less not promoted and untenured and we decided as a group that we wouldn't we pushed our administration to consider it but we didn't want to spend the resources of our time and energy to develop our own materials until we knew that it could it would be right in our interests so we wanted students to have a great experience so we worked really hard to find your audio cut out for me Michelle did anybody else hear me I can hear you got out for me as well it was just a friend well I don't know what you missed but but more or less we worked hard to find quality materials without developing our own you know simply because we we were concerned that it wouldn't that be valued in the in the tenure and promotion yeah that can be a hold up for many faculty at this point are there any other questions you guys have for one another I'm similar to Julia I'm interested in finding out more about how other institutions are releasing their OER materials because we have developed not only myself but a couple of the other full-time faculty have started to develop some of our own resources and now we're kind of to the point where you know even those things that are licensed they are behind blackboard walls and so they're pretty much institutional resources for many of them so it'd be interesting to find out how other institutions are yeah so the sharing portion has become the challenge yeah that's something that I think is discussed on our email list and is a good topic for further conversation I think so has anything changed in the way you teach your courses since you've adopted OER Sean I mean for the most part my some assignments have changed but the materials have generally stayed the same especially in the online course we've been able to incorporate I got permission from the Maryland Court of Appeals they have all of their court cases videotaped so the one thing that was a challenge with them is that they are not closed that their videos are not closed captioned so in order to make them come comply with the American with Disabilities Act we were able to get permission from the court to take the videos there's a couple companies out there that will close caption them for you I think we did three videos and it cost us maybe like a little over a hundred dollars for all three videos and we've posted them to an internal YouTube page again the reason why it was an internal YouTube page was because the consent was coming from the Maryland Court of Appeals and they asked that they'd be used for educational purposes and we indicate that the closed captioning was done by us and not them and so that's why we've we've put it into you know a permission granted I guess YouTube page what about you Michelle I'm just trying to share what I'm trying to do we have a we have here I'm going to paste it in to the chat we have a web page that the library built OER dot BMCC dot cuny dot edu so we've been directing people there and I know that cheat the librarian open knowledge librarian my muted no we can hear you okay that the open knowledge librarian is also working on core shells within the college that we would be able to export but she I don't know that it's a lot of work and I don't know that that part of it has been developed yet unfortunately she couldn't be with us today because she really is the genius in this end but I will also direct you once I find the link to one other part of our library web page that has materials there that details we got some money from the state the state was so impressed with the cost savings to students because we've saved students millions of dollars millions of dollars and it really really matters I mean I made it sound like we were only in this for our own stipends but the truth is our students can't afford to get to school some days because their families share a metro card so your brother has to go to school and you don't have more than one metro card so you can't go to school right it's pretty serious so the more that we could do to reduce cost the better and and we saw some added benefits besides the cost savings which were that students became a little more engaged and excited about the material and so did professors so we're trying to disseminate the information because we did a lot of work and we want other people to benefit from you know so I hope those are useful to you I'm sure they will be what about the way that you've been teaching your course since adopting OER do you think that it's changed for me it has absolutely changed because I was still a little shy about introducing things that went outside the book that I had been using and all of a sudden I was like wait a minute I'm liberated I can do what I want it was beautiful it really was and it was so exciting to do it with my colleagues because many of us teach some of the same classes and they do it slightly differently but we were inspiring each other sharing the work with each other it really it really truly was liberating and it and it reignited people's passion about what we would do yeah what about you Julia so exactly same thing I mean it absolutely has changed what we're doing a lot of this is on an online platform through canvas for us and so when we started doing the development we started noticing when we were getting text heavy or we have too many of articles and so we started scripting things and we too went to our development office and said we want to do this video in-house and they embedded the closed captioning they did everything so it was accessible I believe our college got grant money for our development area and so we actually have a team that when we are developing and doing things it kind of it labels it and says hey this isn't accessible and so we can push it over have that team review it and then they'll kick it back and say okay everything's good now we've got this figure out for you a lot of times when we're searching for articles we're specifically targeting material that might already be you know closed captioning and it's accessible is already embedded in there but we have found that I think that's why it takes a long for developing your own information is as you get into the process and you start getting really excited and a lot of buy-in and everyone's putting in all this information and then you got to kind of filter through it and see how what the student experience is going to be but we have found that we're using a lot more of the interactive tools with videos and and our own information that we're capturing and sharing than I ever did ever before without question and we also had hosted an open educational resource conference here in Utah last spring and a lot of conversation was around sustainability and one of the biggest takeaways that we I personally as well as other colleagues we communicated after is you know there's millions of hours of student assignments that you know we had we create these assignments make sure they're meeting the objectives you know we're doing all of this work and then it's discarded and so we have been really trying to look at where can we have more of a meaningful impact with the students helping us sustain this material so we've even been working with designing assignments where our students are actually verifying that we have most current and relevant information and then their contributions are something that we turn and look at and then we'll have a meeting to say is this exactly the information we want can we use this student information or these assignments to help us sustain and keep this information relevant and current and so I think that it's created a lot more work but it's more meaningful work for us and so again we're a year in you know for a lot of the courses we really rolled out a couple of new OER classes in the fall and so it's probably too soon to really say like where we need to change and and where we'll be improving but when we do improve and when we do make changes I can see that it's absolutely holding us more accountable and we're interacting in ways that we weren't with our students prior so I think it's really and I think our student feedback is something I'm really excited to start seeing come in because we rolled out investigations criminal investigations in the summer and our faculty that were teaching said I spent countless hours just fixing and correcting and adjusting things that in the development side we didn't see it but once we had students involved we started to see some of the breakdowns and some of the flaws and so then we revised some of that they rolled it out again in the fall made additional corrections and then when we had a meeting last week it sounds like they're where they want to be at least for a short time because that's OER and so but they're really comfortable with the way that they've designed it but it took two semesters of kind of piloting it before they were really comfortable with where they're at so hopefully that helped to answer that question. Yes so you mentioned that you're kind of only a year in and you haven't gotten a lot of feedback but have you maybe got some like anecdotal feedback yet from the students or have you done have you seen any differences in success rates since you switched to OER? I really can't speak to that but I can tell you prior to us entering the OER we were getting notifications from our faculty development office which was promoting the OER courses and I do a lot of work I do a lot with concurrent enrollment where we're embedded in the high school so I meet and greet and work with those students and then as some students are coming into the college as a articulated student I've had the opportunity for ten years to kind of be a primary advisor faculty advisor administrative advisor whatever you want to label but not an actual academic advisor so I met hundreds of students and as I started to communicate the opportunity it was amazing how emotionally tied and driven the students were to wanting to be in that class and their expression of like how much we care to make these opportunities available to them and what a difference it would make and so I saw the students kind of aligning themselves with this opportunity because they connected with it and so I would say the more that we're offering the more that we're able to achieve the actual degree or at least the core classes and the college is doing so much work on the general education side of the house so I would say it was already pretty strongly oriented with students of like this being a priority for them so I'm excited to see the students communicate about the experience so I think that probably by the end of this semester we'll really be able to start we've done some even new surveying because we realize oh we're missing an opportunity to get information from our students and so I have one faculty who's been amazing working primarily with the criminal law and investigations OER classes and he has actually embedded surveys from the students to talk about what was your experience getting a textbook what was your experience with a class that had a textbook and then he's created information saying compare that to this experience how has it been for you to be contributing to the course material how does it been for you to contribute to an OER assignment you know what what does that and so I'm looking forward to his results from his students and again it's such a small population to pull from to really you know make any big plans but I I know what will still influence us so that's that's kind of what we're doing right now yeah absolutely uh Sean what about you how have your students responded to you know we are they it's been a very positive experience similar to what Julia was mentioning this is with the publisher's text I never really had a lot of feedback from students but because of these sources just the other day one of my students we were working on on some material and you know we were talking about specific Maryland statutes and she said she emailed me professor you know they there was a legislative change in the fall of 2017 that's not indicated in your slides and so they feel somewhat invested in updating the material where with a publisher's text I don't think I would have gotten that same response and so I I do feel they're a little more invested in the materials the at the conclusion of my courses I always have them do a discussion about you know what have you learned what have what would you've learned like to learn more about but the other thing because of the OER is what what was your experience with the OER resources and by far the majority of them say you know that they they are appreciative of the faculty going out and trying to find these resources and they also make recommendations you know I've I've heard especially with some of the constitutional resources you know some of them will say well that one was a a little too much reading and I even had one student who identified another resource which I hadn't seen that said you know this would I found this to be a helpful supplemental reading and so I think they're invested more within the reading materials the one thing I have found especially amongst my older students is that they do not like the fact that they don't have a hard copy publishers text but with my younger students I don't find that you know I'd say out of a class of 30 might have one or two that don't don't like the fact that they don't have a hard paper bound version you know that it's an electronic format have you seen any difference in like success rates the grades of students or retention or anything versus when you were using a traditional I mean me personally I the first time I used it I only used the OER resources for my online course and I had kept the publishers textbook in our face-to-face course and at the end of the year when I said when I evaluated quizzes and assessments generally they were about the same I didn't see a wide now again that's only one semester samples so I you can't draw a lot from that but I didn't I didn't see you know a wide array in terms of student success yeah what about you Michelle yeah I don't make you a note because I don't know if they have been processing that information we've done surveys with students but I don't know if we've yet examined the institutional data so I'm curious to find out myself but I don't know have you heard just any feedback from students about whether or not they like the OER materials better or anything like that in the surveys that mostly the library implemented the surveys I'm looking at last years and you know one of the things that I know they consistently reported is that students similar to I think what you just said about students having a little more investment they seem to have a more of a connection to the materials because we have a statement on our syllabi that explains what OER is we explain how we chose things and why and luckily for us our Reaper Graphics Office is willing to print a course reader if we have it for them by the beginning of the semester so they're they like being able to access their materials online but some of them also do like the paper but they have a certain level of engagement I don't know if it's because they understand that we've selected these materials specifically for them but it seems to have made a difference that they're engaged more with the materials that's what the survey research show. I also just wanted to chime in really quickly I have the pleasure of having Andrea from our faculty development office here and she did just share with me that we did a college wide survey and it did talk it was from the students sharing that the OER courses actually gave them the opportunity to have kind of a fuller college experience some of them had the opportunity to buy food be able to add additional courses so the money that they were previously allocating textbooks they were able to secure that money and apply it to where they weren't you know suffering personally or have the opportunity to get through the academic process more swiftly because they were also able to add other OER classes or other courses and use that money more wisely for them so we have done some college wide surveys that's talked about OER completely at the college so I think they'll be looking at oh here I can even talk to thank you it says 33 percent of students you know they talked about the fact that they weren't even purchasing a textbook prior they so this one just kind of talked about the students experiences of like we had 84 percent of our students that were you know struggling to purchase the book delayed it struggled in the class due to that 51 percent of the students were required to register for fewer classes because of the textbook so that had an impact of 50 percent of 49 percent of our students were you know kind of still just doing things regularly but 51 percent of the students were able to add more and do more because of the money that they were saving and then 32 percent of the students had previously dropped or avoided courses because of the textbook cost that was estimated to it so I mean that's pretty significant that they were able to see the impact that they were having on those students to be able to to kind of go through the process and achieve that classwork quicker yeah that cost savings really does make a big difference to students but it's it's something else to see those hard numbers or seem to indicate how the ways that it's impacted them can be really powerful. So what changes might you make to improve the course where they are now Sean? I think the hard part for us at this point now that we've developed a few courses is just continuing with the maintenance and upkeep it's not just the development of the resource but it's making sure that they're maintained and especially with as I was talking about statutory law you know that changes on a regular basis and and so where the publisher was providing those services in the past now it's the duty is on the faculty and similar to some of the other speakers we initially got a stipend for to help us with the creation but there's not so much in terms of resources for you know the the maintenance and upkeep and so that's a difficult part I think you know if institutions are going to use this not only do they have to be willing to provide funding for the creation but also the the upkeep and maintenance of the resources. What about you Michelle? The challenge we faced is really trying to get more people to adopt OER 75% of the classes that my campus and really the whole city University of New York are taught by part-time faculty and so it's a hard seven because they're also paid an embarrassingly low wage for the work they do they make $3,200 a class and so it's a hard sell to say hey I'd like you to adopt this thing that requires a lot of work right and sort of wrapping yourself around it even though it's already done in a sense because we have the course map it's a difficult transition right to familiarize yourself with a whole new semester's with the materials and maybe even innovate on your own to come up with this stuff so we've been trying to continue to find the resources to allow part-time faculty to get a site bend for that work because you know like I said nine full-timers almost 40 part-timers and we have very few OER courses because it's mostly the full-time faculty that are doing it so I think that's going to be the challenge for us going forward it's trying to find the resources to to compensate part-time faculty for for participating. What about you Julia? I absolutely the same thing here I think another thing that Michelle talked about at the beginning of our discussion was having it even though ours is a college wide college wide initiative I think that we need to build that into like the 10-year process I know there's some discussions going on right now but you kind of have to embed that into the culture and climate for higher education moving forward and there also needs to be discussion of release time and financial compensation not only for the actual development but there needs to be like a cohesive connection between a department who has like a lead faculty or a lead administrator that has experience that has them project management tools can work with the different departments to make sure that they're getting the appropriate material embedded into the course so partnerships with the library partnerships with being able to capture your own videos having everything accessible I think it's great to have discussion groups from other people that are on your campus so both internally but then also externally for people that are just involved in OER but then externally having people that are involved in your subject matter and being able to connect and breaking down the barriers for institutional open educational resources and having it more available to other individuals but then I think the other thing that's I would say for me personally is being able to have I do a lot of research and development stuff in the evenings and on the weekends because I just don't have the time or space to do it in my office it feels like I'm not even I who's championing this work have yet to find that time and space to do it as part of my work day and not part of my release from family time to work on this stuff because it's more of a scene and I hate to even use this term but I'm going to say it's like it's a passion project like I want to see it be successful but then I've also found myself in a position where I should be leading this and I still feel really insecure in having the right platform and tools to support me then help bring other people on and have confidence in the structure I have a lot of projects that are lingering and I think I could influence some change there if I had more time to participate in discussions connecting this is amazing this was why it was so important for me to participate in this is I want to make connections with other people to see hey if you're working on juvenile justice and a corrections course then I can be dedicating more time to this and then I know that we're going to collaborate and share these resources because they're truly open and and so I want to build a better collaborative relationship both internally and externally on all we are yeah do you guys have any other questions for each other before we move on to some final comment okay I don't so what about um any advice or words wisdom to faculty using or thinking about adopting OER for their courses Michelle let's start with you yeah if you know one of the things we did is that the librarian and I and a group of administrators went to the city council we went around and talked to people we went to as many legislators and interested politicians as we could because their constituents are our students and their student and their constituents can't afford to come to college right so they understood why this was important and we were surprised to get an audience with them so it was one way that we were able to leverage some of the we have 27,000 students so we were able to leverage straight the the number of students we have with their representatives to say please advocate for this in right in the legislature and it it was shocking actually but that the state found money for us to do so that we were absolutely floored by it but but thankfully we had you know support from our administration it's it was crucial without it you know we didn't have an open knowledge librarian before until we got the support from the administration and then she became the open knowledge librarian like what right so you know it's that we're fortunate in that way but I think it it was a great opportunity for us to go out and talk to the legislature so that's one thing that hasn't come up that I would say was useful for us. Yeah that's amazing we are almost at our 45 minute mark which is the time we allocated for this we can go a few minutes over if it's okay with our speakers and if anyone any of our participants have any questions if you want to put those in chat and we'll get to those in just a minute. Sean any words of advice? I mean I think for us the easiest thing was to start off with some of our upper level courses just because they're more concentrated like criminal law or criminal evidence similar to some of the other schools I think the administration of justice or intro course is the most difficult one because it covers the broadest amount of topics so we're still that we have I think three faculty members who are kind of collaborating to try to work on that but we haven't developed a you know or identified appropriate resources or created those appropriate resources on our own for the administration of justice course and the other last thing would be just to make sure that whatever sources you're using are ADA compliant because I know some of the other schools have had issues and even some of the other programs here so that would be the only things for me. What about you Julia? So I feel like I probably touched in a little bit on this in the last question but for me really it's just making sure that you have even so when you started development process we spent a lot of times identifying like the objectives and where we wanted to go and and I still found that even though we had a lot of really great people at the table when we came back and started reviewing and looking at things investigations is another great point. We then introduced it to the faculty and we realized there were some really great people that should have been part of that conversation and so I would say I'd probably start really really broad have a really department wide conversation about what your priorities are going to be and then have them kind of self-select and narrow down to where it's like okay then this is going to be the group that's working on it. I know that's not probably realistic for everybody but if you can kind of make that approach it would probably help with kind of like the buy-in and then not having to recircle over the same kinds of things or go back so much. Again really solid project outline, lead people from who's going to kind of clarify the process and then connecting with your institution to realize what support in the library and the development office because even now that I've been involved over a year I'll have conversations with people and they'll be like oh yeah I'm working with so-and-so who's helping me with this and I was like I had no idea this person was even involved in this OER development or this information and and so I really think it's nice to have like a department focus on what the project outlines and priorities are having tools and support and resources to help facilitate that have financial opportunities to support people to go out and expand and collaborate and connect with people but then also having the time to connect with other people across the college that can say yes this is how we're working and doing it and I think like the faculty development office or having like an OER group on campus get together and collaborate and talk about who they're connecting with and what their process is even if it's not the same subject matter but just understanding what they're doing to develop and so I think that there's kind of a lot of lessons that can be learned and to especially a new department that's coming on that can say oh okay you've learned all these lessons I don't need to you know replay that I'm going to take that information and apply our process a little bit differently based off of the insight that we're sharing and so that would be my takeaway yeah absolutely those connections are so important and helpful for undertaking a new project like this I have a few final slides and then we will get to any questions in the chat window so I just want to remind everyone that we do maintain a list of upcoming conferences related to open education on our website which is under the get involved tab also under the get involved tab is the link to sign up for our community email list where a lot of wonderful discussion and information sharing takes place we have some more upcoming webinars this spring we have three more faculty dialogues on OER one for every day this week and then we also have three more webinars one in April one in May and one in June these will all be recorded if you're not able to attend at these times and those will be made available on our website and also more information about these webinars what they'll be about is available on the website as well so you can kind of learn more there so let's see we do have any questions I don't think we have had any I see Michelle and Sean have shared their email addresses if anyone wants to email them for further discussion if that's something you're interested in sharing Julia you can do that as well in the chat window well I don't see any questions I do want to thank everyone for attending today and thank you to our speakers for sharing your experiences as we mentioned those connections and hearing about other experiences in the process of adopting OER whether or not it's your subject area of expertise or maybe you're a librarian or an administrator just seeing what else is out there and how other people are doing things and what their experiences are like can really be invaluable so thank you for sharing today thanks for the opportunity yeah I appreciate it making this connection for us is great yes thank you thanks again