 Good morning, good afternoon, good evening everyone. If you can go ahead and just put in the chat where you're dialing in from today, that would be great. Thank you for joining us today. My name is Daniela Barbosa, I'm the vice president of Worldwide Alliances at the Linux Foundation with the Hyperledger project. For the last four years, I've had the honor and the privilege of working with our Hyperledger community worldwide as we build this global community up. I'm delighted today to be hosting this conversation on blockchain and how it's shaping the future economy with these amazing group of women. We're gonna learn a lot today from each other and there'll be plenty of time for questions and I encourage you to ask them as we go along. You could put them in the chat or in the Q&A, in the Zoom Q&A area, we'll take a look at those, we'll address them, we'll either weave them through the discussion or we'll just address them at the end of the discussion. Before we do get started today, once again, welcome everyone. I do wanna take a couple of seconds to acknowledge that we are still in the middle of the pandemic around the world. The last 15 months has been very difficult for all of us. Certainly there's no doubt about it with close to 3.2 million deaths around the world and with the recent horrific number of cases in countries like Brazil and India. Sometimes it's hard to fathom how we just keep going on and having these meetings and having business discussions. But we do this because we are resilient and the majority of us in the blockchain community know that a lot of the work that we've been working on for many, many years is really part of the future that we wanna build that will hopefully not allow pandemics and issues like this occur again. And quite honestly, we have to build it. We have to build it for ourselves. We have to build it for our children. We have to build it for one another. So I wanna just take a couple of seconds. I want us all, especially with our audience, our global audience and many of you in India this morning to just take a deep breath and think about our sisters, our brothers, our aunties, our parents, our grandparents, all our friends who have families that are currently struggling with COVID in regions. And just keep in mind that together we are stronger. So just a couple of seconds. Deep breath, thank you. Let's keep that in mind as we go through this. Today's panelists, as I was looking at everybody's background and kind of their careers, we have close to 100 years of experience combined in business, education, working in standard bodies and government and finance. And our combined experiences are really well suited for today's discussion on how blockchain and distributed ledger technologies will shape the future of a global economy. To one of that is equal, fair and open to all. And why women will play a leading role in this future. We're already seeing that quite a bit. So I wanna introduce you to the panelists. I'm gonna do that alphabetically by surname. And then we will go to video and kind of see each other's here. So alphabetically we'll start with Alex. Alex Albano is the chief growth officer at Chainstack for Blockchain Managed Services, which is a leader in the market. She's a founder of the Blockchain Consultancy at Chana Labs. Alex has previously been the CEO of Space Chain, which is kind of cool. And was part of the team that made the installation of the Bitcoin node on the International Space Station. We certainly know that space will be a very important part of the future global economy. I have no doubt about it. And maybe that will come up in our discussions today. She's also a founding member of the Ocean Protocol, a decentralized data exchange. And she is dialing in from Singapore today, correct? Awesome, welcome, Alex. Next, we have Raji Iguvar. She's the managing director for India and South Asia for DLT ledgers, which is a Singapore-based FinTech Blockchain company as well. She has over 33 years of experience working with global customers in sales, marketing, alliances, and ecosystem development. Raji's not only evangelizes, but also endorses Blockchain as a philosophy of life, apart from technology. And we hope that we will talk about that today. And we look forward to hearing your thoughts on the importance of governance and what I am many call co-opetition in the space and why that's so important in a decentralized technology. Next, we have Leanne Kemp, CEO and founder of Everledger, who adjunct professor of future industries from 2018 to 2020. She was the Queensland chief entrepreneur, which is an amazing role in the work that she did there. She's also part of the World Economic Global Future Council on Manufacturing and Blockchain. Everledger is best known for building ethical and transparent supply chains, including what I usually describe as a girl's best blockchain, which is the diamond industry. And she advocates building a circular economy which many believe is the key to the future global economy that we are going to be discussing today. Leanne believes that companies should understand that they themselves are major stakeholders in our common future. It's not just the participants and the consumers and us people, but the companies themselves. And by being stakeholders in our common future, they must work with other stakeholders to improve the state of the world in which they are operating. I think the three introductions so far, we can see that there's a human element to what we're building in this future economy that's so important. Next we have Kristin Pomas-Langober, if I said that correctly. She's a community strategist in blockchain based out of Tampa, Florida, where I'm in San Francisco. I forgot to mention this where it's 11 o'clock at night and I was like, oh, it's late, but it's 2 a.m. in the morning. So fantastic and thank you so much for joining us. She's also the vice chair of the IEEE P2145 working group on blockchain DLT governance standards. She's managing director of coalitions consulting, a firm that specializes in the human components of blockchain systems, governance, trust and stakeholder commitments. So obviously her experience is gonna be very valuable in our discussions, certainly with human elements in distributed technology. And I'm here to say it's not just the tech and bros in the back that are doing things with the tech and that it all runs by itself. We hopefully will get to that as well. And last but not least, we got Chila Zavari who is VP of marketing strategy at Blockchain Technology Partners. In the past, she was a senior research analyst for Blockchain DLT at 451 Research, S&P Global Market Intelligence. If anyone has the pulse on what is happening in the marketplace, Chila is certainly one of those people in the panel today, digging into the solutions and the markets and the players. She's really has an inside view of blockchain and DLT technology and how that will shape the future of global economy. So once again, welcome everyone. I'm delighted to host this discussion today. And let's go ahead and get started. We'll start as with the, at the end of the alphabet. Chila, you're up first. And I bet you were always called last in class. So I decided to call you first today. And go ahead and introduce yourself. Tell us a little bit about what you're working on now that is relevant to our discussion around the future economy. And what really made you go down the path of blockchain and decentralized technologies? Yes, so maybe perhaps something interesting is how my first professional encounter with technology overall, it was sort of accidental. And I was actually thrown in at the deep end. I found myself, I mean, my background, I'm an economist, that's what I studied. And I have a master's in business management consulting. And, you know, as I was put into the world of IT research and innovation without knowing anything about technology. So I had to pick that up, right? And then with blockchain, I formally met blockchain, let's say that in early 2017. I was a technology industry analyst back then already. And I was in a team that was covering cloud transformation. But the good thing was that we had some liberty to look at various areas of digital innovation. So I started, blockchain technology caught my attention. I really liked the fact that it was like so many areas. It wasn't just about technology. Different areas were coming together, like legal business and things like that. So it really caught my attention and I started to read about it a lot. And then I started to write reports. And, you know, a few months later, I became officially a blockchain analyst. And I was that for a few years. And now earlier this year, I joined the startup world. I joined blockchain technology partners. It's an enterprise blockchain startup based out of Edinburgh, I'm in Barcelona. And I'm the VP of marketing and strategy. But in a startup, you always do a lot of different things. And one thing that you asked that, what am I working right now? So we just recently launched a so-called DLT landscape, which is an open source initiative, which is sort of we are trying to make sense of all the conflict with the vendor landscape in DLT has become so complex, like so many projects out there, so many companies innovating in very different areas that are related, but still have created a landscape that it's got really, really complex. So we are trying to make sense of that with this initiative, it's open source, please, you know, if you have time, just check it out, it's dltlandscape.org. So that's me. Well, defining and, you know, having set standards that you can look towards, right? That you understand is primary, you know, a primary thing in building these networks. So thank you for that work that you're doing. Kristin, tell us a little bit about what you're working on that's relevant to the discussion today and, you know, what make you, what got you here? Yeah, thank you. So I am the vice chair of IEEE P2-1-4-5, the IEEE's Blockchain Governance Working Group. We are a group of about 200 plus individuals from all over the world developing open source standards for the governance of public and private blockchain ecosystems. In addition to that, I also consult blockchain companies on the human side of blockchain ecosystems, which is an area that I'm very, very passionate about, and ties into how I got into the space. So I have worked on a bunch of different software startups and in 2018, 2019, I was working on a data aggregation tech startup that ended up having me cross paths with the Ethereum space. I had been aware of things like cryptocurrencies for a while prior, but hadn't given them too much thought until I realized what blockchain technology could do for multi-stakeholder data transfer and trusted data transfer. And that took me down the rabbit hole and I started to volunteer in the space and try to find any way possible to get more involved. And that was about three years ago now, and I've been nose down in the space ever since. There are many reasons why I think that the space is the coolest place to be right now, but it would say off the top of my head, it's truly global, and this event right now is a testament to that. I've had so many awesome opportunities to collaborate with people from all over the world on various projects because this is distributed technology. It's a global distributed technology. And in addition to that, I just think blockchain technology has so much infinite value to provide, to countless, countless industries out there. Any industry where there are multiple stakeholders that are engaging in some sort of relationship that necessitates trust and necessitates trade of information, blockchain is going to be a major innovation point in the coming decades. So happy to be here. Thank you. Awesome. Excellent. Leanne, if you can tell us a little bit about the work that you're working on that's relevant to the discussion today and how'd you get here? I often ask myself that question, how did I get here? But most importantly, the question we asked was, where did it come from? Which of course was the Nexus point or the inflection point to build Everledger. So hi to everyone from India, particularly in the diamond industry, Surat, Mumbai, Bangalore, Jaipur, there's no secrets about where Everledger started. We started providing for a system of origin and traceability and chain of custody for what is largely some of the most opaque supply chains in the world. Beginning with diamonds and colored gemstones and then further afield today, we also looked at what industries potentially could be most conflicted by 2030 and 2050. And parts of our work moving forward was to not only think about how can we make an entirely new economic structure like circular economy stick, but also how do we prevent a blood-dry diamond atrocity in another industry? And of course, that's stored energy in batteries. And a lot of that work, we began in 2016 on the tail end of the World Economic Forum's positioning around the Global Battery Alliance. And so Everledger does everything from traceability of diamonds and gemstones right up into the luxury brands with Alexander McQueen and Web3 and all those fantastic things that are pretty bullish in the market right now. But primarily we think about how can we bring a system of trade and rails, digital rails to support an ethical platform. And that's where we started and that's where we'll end. Can you define circular economy? Maybe some of the audience hasn't heard that term before. Yeah, when we think about the current ways that we make things and we either dispose of them, we dig a hole and we throw it in the bin or we consume it and there's a significant amount of waste involved in manufacturing. There's a construct that has been born to really think about not just only reusing and recycling and repurposing but how do we enable or view waste as value? And some of that isn't just necessarily seen within one supply chain but it's linking different supply chains together. So some work that was embarked upon in 2017, couple of years after Everledger started was to think about could Apple or Dell or even IBM become a supplier to the diamond and jewelry industry? Many people thought I was a bit mad, they often do but the reality is it's true. There is a significant amount of critical metals and minerals that are used in electronics that are often discarded and wasted. And so how can we combine different supply chains together to make entirely new products or how do we stop digging up the planet? And so the circular economy is that principle to move from what we once knew was just a linear economy. So we take it, we make it and we dispose it to how do we reuse, recycle and repurpose? Wonderful, thank you. Raji, let me see. Good, remove spotlight. There you go. Raji, are you on? There you go. You're muted. Yeah, I am. There you go. Excellent. Hi, everyone. Thank you. This is wonderful and really great to see these panelists here and hearing all these wonderful experiences that people have had. So yeah, quickly, my name is Raji Angar and as I was introduced, I've been in the IT industry for over 35 years with large MNCs, both in India as well as Singapore. And 33 years is a long time. It's literally time to retire now and hang up my boots. Well, I almost did that twice but what got me into this blockchain part was obviously the interest and the greatness of the platform. So yeah, that's how I got into it. And I strongly believe that, from all that you've heard so far, I think, and as you mentioned in the introduction too, I think blockchain is almost a way of life is more of philosophy than technology. We are talking of authenticity, we'll be talking of transparency, we'll be talking of visibility, immutability of records and consensus base, et cetera. Now, isn't that way of life? That's how we should lead our life, right? So frankly, that definitely is more that than actual technology. But anyway, coming back to what I do, so I am based out of Mumbai currently, I'm with DLT Letters, it's a Singapore based startup. It's a startup that was just set up about three, four years ago, but we've done some amazing work. It's a private permissioned network of clients, beyond the pinning technology, of course, being blockchain. It's, and we work with the large enterprise, the banks and the SMEs. And as we talked today, I'll share with you in detail as to what we do with them. But clearly one of the news cases that has come up very strongly and stood out in the pandemic is the challenges we face in the cross-border trade. Trade per se is complex, as we all know. There's movement of goods with documents and contracts and exchange of money, et cetera. And now given the pandemic and when it's cross-border, it becomes even more complex. So where does blockchain come in and how do we fit in and what are the kind of opportunities and use cases we should be looking at would be the interesting discussion that we're going to have today. Just one or two use cases which would be of interest to the audience is also in fraud detection when it comes to bank loans and things like that. So I will talk about that as well today if we do get an opportunity. And of course, supply chain visibility, which is huge. So a lot of our use cases, but we'll go one by one. Yeah, you know, one of the things that your many years of experience around building ecosystems and alliances is so important to have those skillset and someone like yourself to have those skillset in order to build these blockchain networks and these governance models. I always joke that you don't get rid of the lawyers. You don't get rid of the humans and you don't get rid of the lawyers no matter how much technology you throw at it. So tell us a little bit about the kind of the the parallels that you've seen in building these ecosystems, probably in hand-to-hand combat with competition very often to what you're seeing with your startup now with the DLT ledgers in building these governance networks. What's the key thing that pops in your mind when you think about that? Sure. As you mentioned, yeah, it's a world of co-opetition. Frankly, I don't think we should consider it as competition anymore because Daniela, this is no longer the world of exclusivity anymore. Many years ago when I started to build alliances with the large MNCs, it was you're either an infrastructure player or a software player and then you sort of come together and see how you can go to market giving, each of them coming together and saying what they can do for the customer's benefit. But as we went along, came along cloud and many other solutions which doesn't clearly, there are no clear team market areas that this is where I play and this is where I don't play. So competition slowly became co-opetition and I think it's important that we recognize that, acknowledge that and try and work together. I strongly believe that the sustainability of any marketplace is to work with partners, work with co-opetition and see at the end of the day what translates as an advantage to the end customer. That is so important. And we will get better at it when we recognize each other's strength and leverage on the strength to build that advantage for the customer. All right. And I'd like to talk a little bit about how the technology enables that. Yes, absolutely. And we'll come back to how it's working in today's world in blockchain where you do see competition which is not really competition and how do we leverage that? We'll come to that. Excellent. Alex. Thank you for having me. It's brilliant to be part of this amazing conversation. Yeah, so if you had to picture me just really picture me with drills and spanner girl as far as blockchain goes as I take care of infrastructure. It's literally like the piping and the wiring here at Chinstack. Blockchain has enormous potential as a technology but eventually it comes down to nodes. Can you run the nodes? How many nodes and how are these nodes resilient and who is having control over them? There is a whole conversation around centralization by stealth just because of the infrastructure and how it's been set up. So that's the mission here as a chief growth officer at Chinstack. I'm looking at providing the best possible infrastructure for all sorts of projects that are just now out there. So from enterprise blockchain all the way to web three and we've seen exponential growth in both areas. And it's fascinating to see. I've been in the industry since 2017 and I would join the strike of people saying that they've joined by accident. Here I am again. My actual training is in an artistic field. I trained as a concept pianist. That was my first career. So first message to everyone out there is really like don't put butter on yourself. You don't need an engineering degree. You can build up your competence and if there is passion then everything can come. So I got by accident because I saw so many books lying around. It's been like a family business by now. So our dinner conversation are quite peculiar. I appreciate that, but it's also very rewarding. As blockchain, they say I lived in London for many, or actually a good portion of my adult life. And we used to say if you're tired of London you're tired of life. I think the same goes with blockchain. If you get tired of the industry then really you're tired of life because there is always, it's just the beginning of an industry. So I started with Ocean Protocol. So there was infrastructure in the sense of data as fuel for everything that goes on in terms of applications and so on. And then moved to space chain which has been this crazy, crazy stint within the aerospace industry. There is a lot actually that is happening in the space industry and the bats that the team space chain did was on bringing decentralization on the governance of satellites. So I worked together with them on setting up and that was a hugely fascinating project both from a governance point of view and from a technical point of view. Of course, the technical limitations of space in terms of storage and the quality also of the transmissions and latency can be of interest or can be a strength. So it was about leveraging that and building an entire decentralized network of satellites for the sharing primarily. So hugely fascinating, very, very privileged and also to have been at NASA and being part of the team that facilitated together with the SpaceX teams on the installations of the Bitcoin node on the International Space Station. And after that, yeah, it's been changed stack as well as my consulting company called Archel Labs. And with both of them it's a journey on seeing how the blockchain industry is growing and how I can try and facilitate that both from a technical point of view and from a business point of view. And I like to pull the threads a little bit on this what you need operationally to become part of a global economy in these new systems. So Alex talked a little bit about sort of the managed services that you're providing so that companies can come to you and say I wanna join this network, I don't have the infrastructure, I don't have the even the administrators and the skilled people in my companies to run these nodes and to administer these nodes. Maybe others in the audience in the audience in the panel can talk a little bit about kind of what is it that the what are the current skills and requirements that both the companies and individuals need to have to be able to participate and participate at an equal level with everybody else because one of the things that's important is having everybody come in at the same level whether you're a very large company or small company. So anybody else maybe have some examples from work that they've done about how do you level set people coming into these networks? So many of the projects specifically on the enterprise side of things that I've come across that I've worked with have actually had specifically node hosting be a barrier for businesses that are being onboarded to their network so much to the extent that oftentimes they desire to outsource node hosting or the company that's building the blockchain solution ends up providing node hosting on behalf of them as a part of the service. So of course from a technical perspective having the service provider hosting all of the nodes for all the clients is definitely not optimal. We know that in order for blockchains to be secure there has to be that decentralized peer to peer maintaining of the nodes. But I would say just because the industry is still so nascent it is definitely a big barrier and I'm actually very curious to see from the other panelists what are some ways that they've helped companies get around the barrier of figuring out the technical side of interacting with blockchain systems and maintaining the nodes. Yeah, actually that's right. So a blockchain when you look at it from a technology point of view so to many others we seem very complex, right? But if we come up from the technology level to the business level and how do we adopt this technology from an adoption point of view from a use case point of view it becomes simpler. So for clients like for example when I talk about cross-border trade and as I mentioned earlier today if you look at how do you keep the wheels of trade moving let me take a simple example current situation of the pandemic and the vaccines and the disruption and the value in the supply chain, et cetera, right? So when you're talking of any kind of cross-border interaction with different jurisdictions coming into play here's the scenario and imagine this that you are moving goods from one place to the other with the different governments coming into play and different parties coming into play if I take a simple trade it's the trader there's a buyer, there's a seller, a buyer's bank, seller's bank, logistics guys, you know the customs guys, the insurance, et cetera. So a whole lot of people are there in this one simple, if you look at a value chain. So if your idea is to find this what we do for example is we build this pipe the pipe is already built and handed over to the client and this is a SaaS space thing it is on cloud Azure it can be on any cloud currently it's on Microsoft Azure it literally takes just 48 hours for somebody to sign in and come on to it. And as far as the other nodes are concerned we try and on both the counterparties again based on the node side. The biggest thing I find is if you lower that apprehensiveness from an end user point of view and see how this can be adopted it's a simpler journey to get on to. It is a journey, blockchain is a journey we need to sort of get onto it slowly and then see where we are. Just trying to demystify the technical part I don't want people to think that it's too complex and you know should I get on? Yeah, can I add on to that to say actually that an entire industry is coming and Chinstack is part of blockchain and services but actually it's an entire industry that is coming to make life easier like to professionalize also the services part to facilitate from a usability point of view from a scalability point of view and also from an interpretability point of view. I think these are probably the three main areas that enterprises are looking to touch on when at least when I speak to them. So when it comes to interpretability it used to at the beginning in 2017 blockchain was this silver bullet that would destroy industries disruptively. Instead we're seeing that is an incremental innovation that is happening and it is happening quite discreetly but surely so that needs to fit in with what is not just the current infrastructure within enterprises but also the mentality and the skill set of the teams that are there. So having a bridge that can speak the language of enterprises and can fit in with the current infrastructure is one. When it comes to scalability I think that flexibility is the major thing that can be a barrier. So many companies will have their own cloud for example or may have their own geographical limitation for example from a regulatory point of view in terms of compliance. So having the ability of deploying nodes and infrastructure within premises or within a specific like Azure for some could be Azure for other sorry AWS for others could be GCP and so on. So having that flexibility will really remove quite a bit of barriers and then usability because not many teams will come probably Ian will have experience with some companies they will not have any experience in blockchain same for you Raji and for the others. They don't have a blockchain teams they don't have a DevOps teams that can understand blockchain. So how can we all as an industry facilitate that and make that happen? Yeah, and just adding to that usability piece is obviously a key requirement and continues to be a challenge but not only for the business user but the technical user as well. So both developers and sort of average user or business user are sort of struggling with that. So we as vendors need to provide all that, proper tooling for developers, support services, integration into that sort of familiar business and technical touch points that these people are used to, right? And in order for them to be comfortable with it and sort of have a wider adoption of blockchain based systems. Leanne, I'd love your opinion you've been working with government agencies and regulators for many, many years to the point of, how do you get a regulator or a government agency on board? What's the hardest and easiest thing to do? Well, the hardest thing to do is to define what's the role of government and then once government can define their role in blockchain or blockchain architecture or infrastructure or ecosystem then I guess we can start to talk and speak to them. There's definitely the role of a regulator and policy makers when it comes to blockchain and even cryptocurrency. But I'll sort of wind back for five seconds. Like I began Everledger in 2014. Arguably there really wasn't expert blockchain engineers in 2014, but I mean, I'm an engineer myself. So I've wrote the very first version of Everledger on my own laptop quietly in London. And what I thought was I'm not gonna be able to just go and grab 10-year experience blockchain engineer because they just didn't exist. But what did exist was really great DevOps and good database engineers and incredible front-end and back-end developers and even full stacks that understood the levelling of languages. And so you can build a really great blockchain team which is what we started to see in the early days from 2014 to 2017. And then those that are committed to the religion of blockchain and distributed technologies became incredibly well-positioned blockchain engineers. But it was in the very first sort of year or two. I remember we worked very closely with the Turing Institute but I thought, wow, I've got to have a team of cryptographers in Everledger to be able to do this. But not necessarily the case either, right? So there's a great rule if you're a software engineer and if you're a cryptographer, don't roll your own crypto. It's pretty dangerous. And from Australia's perspective, I held a government role. There's no secrets around that role. And part of the work here was to also align government into the understanding that this technology is not going away. And it says fundamental to economic policy as it is to innovation across the country and how do we position it across a roadmap that is more than just the next 10 years but a commitment that of course would see bilateral support regardless of who the government of the day is. And largely, if we were to think about our economy in Australia and understood the importance of the internet in the late 90s or the late 80s, how and where would Australia be positioned rather than seeing it as a tool if we saw it as a fundamental fabric of trade or a fundamental fabric of communication, then where would we be differently? And I think that's a really important positioning of the importance of this technology, not just only with corporates but also with government. But it's not really a well understood topic. So if you're trying to lobby into government into politicians, it's pretty tough to get a minister to go all boots in on blockchain because it's volatile, right? It's still very nascent. And so you're gonna need a brave government to really step out in front. We still need to. We need again to put the Bitcoin is not blockchain slide that we used to all start with all the time again because it is, there is progress being made, right? And there's definitely progress being made at the university level, at the computer science education levels as well. Even I have an 11 year old daughter and she takes some online schools at a thing called out school and they have a blockchain one-on-one course for little kids. So to land to your point, right? 30 years ago, people were like, oh, what's the internet? I don't care. Now people actually have to care about distributed ledger technologies, which are not new. We all know that it's not new. I just wanted to add to what Lian was saying from a government point of view and the regulators as well, Daniela. So in Singapore, we worked with the monetary authority of Singapore, which is the regulatory board, right? From a bank's perspective. And what we did with them was that along with them and 14 other banks came together to look at fraud detection. We call it trade registry. So we've had many cases in many parts of the world where there's double financing going on and banks losing huge amount of money and obviously there's more trust as well. So here the regulatory board, the regulatory bank monetary authority of Singapore came together with other banks. So they used our platform to look at how do you and there is AI as well or part of blockchain there where they were able to detect if a particular trade is being financed over the one time. So that was a very important one where government stepped in. There is another one, trade trust where between Singapore government and Netherlands they are coming to Rotterdam, they're coming to, you know, breathe that and this happened, this pilot happened a couple of months ago where, you know, we're trying to say that between two governments, how do you agree upon trade of completely paperless and completely digitized trade? So that's another move that's coming up. So yeah, technology is just one element of it but we need the governing bodies, we need the authorities, regulatory bodies to come together, work with the local communities, you know. And still the digital transformation needs to happen first. I mean, a lot, especially in trade finance and supply chain, a lot of the requirements still lie on just good old digital transformation that needs to happen, right? The data needs to be made available to these processes and that's a huge undertaking as well. Absolutely. Yeah, and into, you know, as Liana also mentioned and I think Alex mentioned this touched upon this is about the inter-enterprise collaboration of inter-enterprise collaboration is going to be the next major growth area where blockchain is going to be absolutely blockchain and the fact that it's decentralized distributed ledger is going to be the key. Let's talk a little bit about the skill set. You know, Alex started with saying that she came in from the arts, from the arts world into it. Lian is a coder, so she was coding blockchain applications on her laptop before. What are the skill sets for those that are listening in the audience and for, especially for women in technology or women who, you know, maybe not in technology maybe they're working in policy maybe they're working in education. What are the things that are really important as we think about the technology, the social impact the social requirements, the trust factors. I think, I don't know who was it that talked about trust before, but like what are the things from a skill set perspective that we should be looking at and hiring into organizations? And let me go first on this one. I think, first of all, like if there is a culture within the company to hire for diversity there should be of course a priority. I don't know, like if I had a penny for every time I had a call where I was the only woman there I would be like invested so much in Bitcoins already for sure. That's really unfortunately still the case. It's very much so in blockchain as a whole but for infrastructure and that's a plea like come to DevOps, there is a lot happening and it's quite stimulating. So you don't need to be an engineer for sure. Even if it's a non-technical role you will still need to understand the you know at least the very basics of blockchain but you don't need to be a photographer to understanding like seriously, it's just a question of having group with critical understanding of what you need to understand. I know it's a double layer but it's true just go shop and read a lot never be intimidated by white papers for example. There are bits that are really hard to escape for sure. I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one there but I'm pretty sure that many engineers are doing the same as well. So some bits are really, really good and difficult maths and we are very grateful for those who are building and they are developing that side but blockchain is interdisciplinary for sure. There are many fields that needs to come together. Personally, if you're building a career in growth ecosystem growth probably the nearer you can also chime in on that for sure but for definitely traditional marketing is there but it's not enough like you need to understand what is the actual community like. So open source communities and you know learning and developing your skillset on that specifically is a very different skill set. So that's for sure needs to go there. Growth hacking as a whole you'd need to be very open minded on how you're going to find your audiences and your leads. That's for sure if you are set up and you have very limited budget and you still need to do and then growing in such an exciting market. And then you can pick from game theory even there like you can go complex, you can be a mathematician and still have questions about it for sure. Or you can be humble than just find your limitations of what you can or cannot understand and push the boundaries. Even if it's sometimes it's painful when you say, I don't understand it. That's never pleasant, right? Or I don't get it. It's also not pleasant but doesn't matter, right? You just go and push for what you can do. I would say also personally I find behavioral economics as a whole as a field extremely, extremely relevant to building and growing ecosystems in blockchain because I think if that's one thing that crypto has shown to the world is that we are irrational beings and we cannot control, we cannot plan. So that's, let's embrace that and let's make a system around it with behavioral economics. And then of course even understanding the basics of the infrastructure and how the piping works that's also understandable, never be intimidated. Just ask questions that there should be enough. Yeah. I would also say the same thing that what you said, the addicts don't get intimidated by this. And incidentally, so just to add to what you said, we were thrown into this by accident. So a bit about me. So I was into astronomy and astrophysics 33 years back and literally overnight into IT, right? But again, when you're coming from an application point of view and the applicability point of view that option point of view, I feel it becomes simpler. I'm not talking about the engineers but people are going to actually use blockchain. So there are several use case scenarios, get familiar with that. I just wanted to add one more complex one which many industries find a complex is when you look at supply chain. The other day I was talking to a client who was, they've got about 200 factories manufacturing plants across the globe and they have about 50,000 supply chain when the suppliers between the second year and third year, you can imagine that there is no visibility. There is literally no transparency. And the way things are happening today is only through email and facts and courier, et cetera. There is no one platform that can bring together different people and have this visibility of where water is at any given point in time with the, with an authentic stamp, timestamp of an event that has happened. So these are all the beautiful advantages of blockchain. So get into the use cases and start adopting it in any small way you can, you know, check the validity of blockchain in your organization and then move on and, you know, grow with it, grow the pipe, grow the nodes. So what I would say to that question is, I first of all completely agree with everything that's been said up to this point. I wanna give a little bit of a take from a younger person's perspective having like just like four or five years ago left university. I know we have a lot of university students in the audience. So a really fantastic way to get involved in the blockchain ecosystem is to work on startups. And regardless of what your background is, I can tell you that there are probably blockchain startups out there looking for people like you. And I'll give a specific shout out to anyone who is in design, user experience. There is an absolute, absolute lack of that, especially on the more like public blockchain application type side of things. There is a surplus of developers who can talk to you all day about their, you know, fantastic innovative solution that is actually awesome, but they can't communicate exactly what that means to their audience or they're not the greatest with building communities from scratch. So if that's something that comes naturally to you, please look out there because there are people that need you right now. Yeah, just to add to that, actually I think that in this sort of blockchain world, all open-minded, all-rounder people who are actually willing or can adapt to change, willing to, you know, roll up their sleeves and learn new things, they will succeed. So it's, again, there are so many things coming together so you cannot really be a specialist anymore. You, it's actually more advantageous if you're an open-minded generalist, so. Completely agree with that. Any other skills that the folks in the audience should be looking towards to participate? I, you know, I agree with all that. I do think that, you know, diversity, specifically diversity from a gender, from a regional, from just, you know, race is an important thing as we consider building these, you know, these future global economy because we are all towards working towards the same goal. And I think that the more we talk about it, the more we say that we need to look at diversity in engineering teams, that we look at, you know, diversity in, you know, in marketing and in design and policy in standards, you know, in some of the standards works, you find, you know, that diversity is sometimes not a key initiative there is an important piece of what we need to focus on as well. Okay, any, any other comments around kind of what the, from a technology perspective in your role and what you're bringing to the market if you could, you know, fast forward, you know, five years from now and, you know, you're in a hiring frenzy. I know many of you are currently in a hiring frenzy as well. What would, what would we, what should people look towards, you know, what kind of education should they get to that would help you hire those folks? So I start to get a quick response to that. Yeah, Alex. I could go then, Alex. So I would say right now, when it comes to blockchain knowledge, like if you have any knowledge at all, you're already above the curve. There are a lot of people out there that have a very surface level understanding of blockchain technology. If you can show to an employer in the blockchain space that you are one, willing to learn and two, have a little bit greater than a very basic understanding of blockchain technology. I think that that's sufficient for today, getting a job in the space. Five years from now, we've already seen so, so many universities and building blockchain programs, incubators even. So I do think the barrier to answer will be a little bit higher. You're gonna have to dedicate a little bit more time to building up skills in the blockchain space through perhaps participating in one of these educational programs or an internship at a blockchain company or volunteering at a standard spotty like IEEE. But I guess what I would say is, regardless of what point in time we're talking about, whether it's right now or five years from now, I would recommend just getting started, whether that means volunteering with some sort of nonprofit in the blockchain space or starting a course on Coursera on blockchain, anything that you can do to get started. That's what I would recommend. And Daniela, it's again, more than the diversity part of it, whether it's diversity in terms of region or whatever it is, I think an added element is compassion today, I think that's really missing. So like I started all this conversation by saying that I strongly believe that blockchain is more a philosophy than technology. We are talking of being authentic. We are talking about being transparent as much as possible. You don't have visibility of what you're doing. We're talking of immutability of what we do in terms of records and things like that. So it's really a philosophy of life but it's really applied that to beyond technology, apply that, extend that to business, extend that to the way you live your life. That's missing sometimes, so yeah. There's a question actually in the Q&A about, do you think there's a lack of women, so speaking specifically on the gender, do you think there's a lack of women, male majority in the blockchain space because of the space and the community itself, meaning they don't allow support of women or is it something societal that this is just, it's technology and it's the same across the world, across the board, whether it's blockchain or artificial intelligence or something else. Any? Not for me, I'm a female founder and 44% of our leadership team are from very diverse both gender and cultural backgrounds. So it's not necessarily a minority in the world that I live. But what I do think is interesting is it's often pegged back into STEM, so science and technology and mass but being the chief entrepreneur in Australia for the last few years, I've been championing esteem with putting an E at the front of it because it's the entrepreneurial spirit and the ability to vision an entirely new way upon which technologies can be used. So not just about innovation but the entrepreneurship element enables us to be able to make it breathe in the world and give it life, build businesses around that idea. And so I think that's probably the piece that is missing. How do we bring entrepreneurship closer to the hardcore skill sets of what's required? But the fundamentals of technology, business and economics is changing and blockchain just happens to be a bit of a blunt instrument to enable that change to begin to show some promise. But unless you're able to approach an industry with the alignment of value and value creation, then blockchain itself will not help to solve for any one thing, provenance or provide any one stream of value. So I would say the one skill set that everyone needs to bring to the table is become a team player and how do you enact that in a way that still provides for economic value but bring participants to the table where the alignment of that value and values is completely joined at the hip and that is the North Star that you're working towards. Yeah, I think from my point of view to study with everything that has been shared so far, I would add also that there is an element of personal push. I hate when they say, oh, you should be more pushy or should be more bold, but it is kind of true as well. And I see this because in general, when you come especially for technical roles as a woman, there is never a natural benefit of the doubt that is granted to you that you know technical stuff. It's unfortunate, but there is always a degree of questioning and for you to be able to showcase in something that shouldn't be there but unfortunately is what it is. So I've gone past maybe because I'm past the 40 mark but I'm past the idea of not being bold enough to just assert your skills and your competence very explicitly. And I think it's fine, especially if you're new to the industry and you want to get there and you want to get the job that is blockchain as a whole. So never underplay or be shy saying, oh, I think I might do this or I might be able to do it. No, you have to be very explicit. I feel that's something that sometimes is not given for granted and it's a personal responsibility to do it. And then equally as a recruiter, and by the way, Chinstack is in the hiring frenzy that Barbara is mentioning. So we are recruiting for engineers and also for interns on the business side. So just getting touch on the thing if it's something that fly on your side. But also from a recruiting point of view, I think as women we have to be extremely bold in highlighting that I am past the being tiptoeing around and being politically correct and know that you just go and if you see that the process is not equal then it's not fair. And that could be with investors as well as it is for recruitment. It's the same thing as I actually invested myself and as an advisor I've seen that over and over again. So just be a champion, right on our side but everyone can play their role individually. Yeah, be a leader. And in the last two companies I was at had CEOs who were female, they're CEOs, they're chief operating officers, they're chief product officers were female. So it was just natural to me. Like I never even thought like it would just be natural but I think that the more people see that as just the reality and that it's possible it makes it much easier as well. So thank you, Leanne for leading the way as well for many of these young folks. There's a couple of questions on the chat primarily about how do you get involved in blockchain? And I can certainly talk about the Linux Foundation has a lot of education opportunities. We have courses that are free for people to understand how to work in open source and then to learn the basics of blockchain to learn different DLT technologies, et cetera. But maybe share some of your ideas or things that you've recommended to others who come to you in the past we used to have those people come to us in person, right? We were at events or we were having a cocktail somewhere and people would be like, how do I get into blockchain? Do some suggestions of people of where people should go? Sila, do you have some ideas of where people should go to? Yeah, I mean, I think that as you said sort of joining open source communities that's definitely something that anyone could do and be introduced because now especially now with open source communities again it's not technical anymore in open source communities there are a lot of different backgrounds working together on different projects, right? So that's a really good way to start getting familiar with blockchain and evolve, get smarter about it and meet people and so on. And then also as the fellow panelists mentioned internships at companies, even at a startup I mean, for example, now we do have three interns working on a very specific project and I think that's a fantastic way to learn about the business, learn about the technology stuff, the business and actually work on a specific project, right? So you already, even you spend a few months and then you create something and then you can use that to be able to move forward from that. Absolutely. And I would actually like to give a really fantastic example for how someone that I know recently got into the industry he had an internship with our IEEE working group three month long internship and what he did is he posted on Medium what he learned every month of the internship and based on that he ended up getting a paid job they reached out to him and they were like wow we really, really like your articles would you be able to write articles for us and he as like second year student in college was like yeah totally and since then he's been super into the blockchain community and growing every day but I guess that's just a testament to show you like once you get your foot like once you like dip your toe into the blockchain ecosystem there's just so much opportunity abound and you could do that through internships but even if that seems a little bit too much for you I would just recommend reaching out to people that you know in the industry or a professor at your university that is into blockchain and just have a conversation and just be like hey I'm thinking about trying to get involved in this do you have any ideas can you introduce me to anyone because at least for me one of the things that I found most valuable is just asking people if they were willing to grab digital coffee with me and chatting and hearing what they have to say about the industry, hearing their stories and then eventually getting more actively involved. Yeah, yeah that's great. And again they're coming back to the adoption part is that the more customers adopt this then there is more acceptance of blockchain in your organizations be it enterprises, modeling, more banks or whatever you're gonna have more of these students sort of grow up in life with blockchainers otherwise it's going to continue to remain a wow thing or something great to from a learning perspective from an academy can be a point of view but not necessarily from a visibility point of view. So I would really encourage more and more clients and customers and prospects and people to start using blockchain get onto it, get onto the platform there will be certain challenges initially if you feel I mean get that all ironed out with whoever you're working with but get onto the journey of blockchain don't delay that because if you don't adopt it then what are the engineers going to sort of do? So the demand for this will become more when people start adopting it. Yeah and I think you just, yeah you need to get into it. I mean my first experience with blockchain was I walked into a Bitcoin meetup in like 2014, no, 2013 and it was a bunch of bros, young men in San Francisco and they all looked at me and I wasn't young back then, I'm not young now they all looked at me and they were like what are you doing here pretty much? And I think I mentioned to somebody oh I work at Dow Jones and they were like please go away but I went back and I went back and I went to others and I found other communities that were working on the technology and I said I need to learn this this is the future financial industry this is what's gonna happen and I just kept going at it and obviously I had 15 years of working in financial services with Dow Jones so I felt the confidence and I had women telling technologists telling me that it's okay to get in there so I think that's an important part. I'm gonna go over to the questions there's some interesting questions one from Duncan Johnson's Watt about how important is something like the recently announced ASEAN blockchain consortium in terms of raising awareness across the region? Is anybody aware of that work and kind of if you're participating? I guess you could consider Australia or Asia but we're not really hearing about it down here so we don't know too much about it. But there's other national consortiums that maybe you're participating in that are experimenting, building these. Yeah, so Australian governments we published the Australian national blockchain roadmap strategy. So there's definitely consortiums in each of the countries that are largely being led in various forms but there's also grassroots movements with either startups or as you mentioned, meet-up groups and I think that they probably they probably have more hands on the steering wheel in those types of environments where people are actually using the technology you often find sometimes sort of the higher-banded consortiums for one of a bad term are theorizing about where the possibility of the technology lies rather than the practicalities of what is currently at hand. You're right, building. I would say high-poor ledger. India chapter is doing a great job, Daniela. We see a lot of posts and... Yeah, it's kind of different, right? Because it's an open-source community so all are welcome to participate. There's real coding, there's real work happening, there's real contributions to the projects that then are being used in these consortiums or it is an important element of it as well. But yeah, I agree, the Hyperledger India regional chapter has been fantastic in building a community of thousands and thousands of developers at all levels that are getting involved specifically with Hyperledger. But I think when you... Whether you're learning a public blockchain protocol or a Hyperledger protocol, you're basically contributing to the development of these technologies and use cases as well. So thank you for mentioning that as well. And it's on my list of things to do. Let's see here, blockchain, let me see. Blockchain is transformative. This is a question from Anna Rebecca. Blockchain is transformative to say the least. What's each of the panelists' dream vision purpose for humanity through the work that they've been doing or businesses that they use this philosophy technology? So what is it that your goals, your dreams in building, using DLT and blockchain technologies? So I can go first. So one is of course from the adoption from the business point of view, but other than that in the government arena, as Lian also mentioned, we need to do that. In India, they are adopting quite a bit. Even in, whether it's birth certificates, kind of thing, land registration, these are some important areas where we are seeing and it would be great to see more inward option in that. In the not-for-profit space as well. For example, in large, there's a lot of CSR funding that comes to NGOs and not-for-profits and how the money is being utilized into what project, having a clear visibility of that is a great use case again. Not necessarily in the business, but in the not-for-profit world. Ideally, I would like to see this spread across the industries, across these cases. So it's not just in the private sector, but also in the public sector and in the not-for-profit sector. Let me go second. And I'm gonna pick up on the scalability side because I think we are just touching the very beginning of a long journey. It's gonna be like a 10 years at least journey because we see a bit of more maturity and scalability from the point of view infrastructure on the web three, it's fascinating to see. And, but I think even more so is the scalability of governance that blockchain is challenging. So from an enterprise point of view, of course it's embedding and the breaking from a competitive model to a collaborative model that's for sure something that it's already changing, it's already happening. But my personal fascination on the web three with the Dow prospects. And you see, for example, projects like Polkadot where they're really pushing the boundaries and see what can be achieved when our community is self-governing itself. To an extent, you've seen these already as a great example with Hyperledger as a open source community, but when it comes also to managing funds and treasury that becomes extremely, extremely interesting. And personally, I want to see this to full fruition and see if that is actually going to be a lever field. At the beginning there was all, all messaging seems to be like in tune in the blockchain industry is always, what about democratizing something, right? It's still there, but I want to see it in action, right? I want to see that the governance has actually bypass what are the barriers for equal access to many services and products for people. And I think only Dow governance can actually take us there. Maybe it's a bit of an extreme, but it's very personal. So don't say that change stack is sharing this vision as society, it's probably more of a personal one, but for sure it's something that I want to see. And I think the other thing that I really want to see is as the governance comes and as the technology matures, we're going to see more multi-dimensional relationships between businesses. So the matrix is going to become more complex and that's something that we, we can facilitate with technology. So it's good to see it and call it and naturalize in a safe way. Yeah, so what I find especially fascinating is that we are, I think now seeing that the least digitized industries are taking on the LTNR doing really great things with it. And, for example, if we think about commodity training, training, sorry, trading, for example, when there are some initiatives like Great Chain, one example where actually they have taken the LTNR and they joined its forces with other emerging technology as IoT and AI and what the whole goal was to do supply, chain resilience, sustainability, fair trade and things like that. And I think in these sort of markets where traditionally price was sort of the only differentiator, when you apply these technologies, you not only increase the production efficiency, but also create opportunity for additional differentiation for, in this case, for farmers, right? Such as fair trade, you couldn't talk about social inclusion and environmental compliance and things like that. So I think this is actually a really fascinating things and I hope to see more of these initiatives coming along. Absolutely. I'm a big fan of Grand Chain. Also, by the way, everyone in the audience definitely look it up, awesome project, great team. So actually my thing that stands out as something that I am hopeful to see in the future continue is blockchain's ability to remove middlemen. If we have any middlemen in the audience, I'm sorry. But for so long across so many industries, there have been players that extract value as opposed to add value. In the case of Grand Chain, there are a bunch of middlemen out there that reap a lot of the profits that don't end up going to farmers. Whereas with Grand Chain's blockchain platform, they're allowing farmers to reap a lot more profits and a lot shorter payment time span. And that's absolutely the case across so many different applications of blockchain technology. So I would say from a humanitarian standpoint, like I completely agree with everyone else's answer is like there's so much to be looking forward to in the blockchain space, but I would say from the humanitarian standpoint, it's gonna improve a lot of lives. It's gonna improve a lot of lives. And is it always gonna be called blockchain? Right? Does the farmer really care is the question? Like the, you know. Oh, no. And maybe, Lan, you have experience with us in the diamond industry, right? From a retail perspective, tell us a little bit about, what does the consumer care about? Well, consumer cares about trust and transparency and, you know, the question about where does the future sort of hold value? We had a great project in 2016 with Tanzania and 50 mining women in the color gemstone space where the collective value that was created where we managed to bring the trade out of Tanzania directly up into the luxury brands enabled us now to commit to generation over generation of gemological education. So now women who were miners who typically had a shovel and were digging dirt, who looked at the color green, now understands the value of each of those shades of green. And so that's a committed project now that will run across generations to come and has come together with many people in industry and Everledger led that work out in 2016 and has become the new way upon which the world operates or our industry operates here with artisanal small-scale mining communities. Consumers don't really look towards blockchain right now. I mean, they're just looking for signals of trust and transparency, but they are willing to pay more if you are able to bring that truth to the forefront of what I call sort of conscious consumerism. I don't think we'll be talking about blockchain in five or 10 years time. I just, like we're not talking about HTTP or SMTP, you know, the protocols that gave birth to an application called email or an application called the browser. And I think once we've transformed with the W3C and a lot of the work that's happening at that protocol level, then hopefully this will just be the way upon which we trade and it is just simply the new versioning of the tools of the internet. So that's what I'm hopeful for. Gussin, thanks for bringing up this thing on farmers and so we are already doing that actually in India to some extent. So there is an app where the farmers can actually buy, sell using the app, but not just that part, not just the farmer part of it, but right from the farm to fork part of the value chain. So blockchain is definitely hugely useful in that. Going back to Lian's point on the transparency and the visibility part, trust part, yeah. That will definitely help. Thanks. Does anybody else have anything to add on that? Just one small point on, it's not as small, but I think increasingly maybe the public will start to ask questions about the sustainability from an environmental point of view of the technology. And I think questions are started to be asked. So I think as an industry, even though we're just starting, but we have to look at the long-term trajectory of the technology and baking, whatever are these requirements cannot be proof of work and endless use of resources. So as an industry, I think the consumer will ask that sometimes as much as also data, data privacy and data ownership attached to the use of blockchain for use cases. Yep. Absolutely. Anybody have comments on the climate and energy consumption discussion? I mean, certainly, it might not be happening within the hyperledger or the permissioned blockchain world, but it certainly touches upon us as well. It's an undeniable topic that we have to solve for. So, and we can't wait till 2025 to do it. So best we put our energies towards it. Yep. Exactly. Certainly reaching out here at hyperledger, we've been doing a lot of work with our claim and action special interest group and reaching out to other groups in the community and universities and people who've been working on climate related technologies for a long time to bring them in to have their subject matter expertise, have them come in and kind of teach us the things that we should be looking for and which partners, right? This is something that is going to be a requirement that the governments are gonna have to get together, that the consumers are gonna have to get together. Everybody's gonna have to get together and work on these issues if we're gonna make any progress before 2025 as needed as well. There was a question before around interoperability and I think Alex, you brought up interoperability before. It says interoperability is the largest issue for the organizations to work with each other. Could anyone elaborate on how various blockchains are solving this? So how the problems of interoperability between networks, et cetera. So just as a quick answer, of course you can look at interoperability at protocol level or you can look at how different blockchains can talk to each other at infrastructure level or at application level. So there is no one solution, I think there will come. But I've seen a lot of movement, for example, on getting what they're called wrappings. So you will have one protocol, maybe it's a permission protocol, wrapped into a public ethereum that will allow for an expansion of usability and tokenization of it. So for example, like a Corda plus ethereum, that seems to be something that people are gravitating towards. Or in other ways where you have, I mean, it can be even simpler than that where you will have one use case that requires different vertical solutions that are best resolved by different blockchains. So you will have a portfolio of blockchains and in that sense, you will need some tools that will allow you to manage it in a way that is sustainable for, not just a very big enterprise, but also for smaller players. And that will come also, we touched very early on, also with Raji, we're discussing the idea of having good infrastructure and good tools, same with Chila and so on. So I think those are the two things. Interoperability is the unicorn. Everyone is chasing to find that, but we don't know there yet. But people are many, many, many very clever people are trying to solve it in different ways. Great. Any other comments on Raji? No, absolutely, I had mentioned that in the beginning, saying that interoperability is going to be key. And also because here we are trying to connect different digital islands, which is never been the case before. Earlier, all the software solutions that you had was to improve work efficiency in whatever within the organization, be it an ERP or a payroll or whatever. Whereas this is going to be one of those, especially the private security networks, where it's going to bring in different digital islands to have that visibility. So interoperability is going to be absolutely key. There was one question I noticed in the audience, which is about how do you choose an appropriate business model for a particular blockchain use case? There's somebody from here, I think. So Daniela, if you're okay, I can take that question. Yeah, please. Yeah. So this is something that we'll have to sit and I can take it actually offline with you. That's from Anjali. I'm happy to have a discussion with you. This, what kind of business model will depend obviously on what kind of use case and what kind of use case would be appropriate to your business, is where we really sit together and have that discussion because thought one, I think fits all right. So this is something that will need to be defined and crafted. And we pay attention to that. We don't want to do a generic one. So happy to have the conversation offline. Okay. There's another question. Oh, go ahead, Kirsten. Did you have to? Yeah, I was actually going to say, in regards to interoperability, a very interesting angle to the interoperability discussion is interoperability of governance in between blockchain ecosystems. And we actually have a wonderful fellow woman in blockchain on our team at IEEE P2-145, Denise McCurdy, who's doing a bunch of research in this space, definitely look into her work. But the way that I would like to, I guess analogize the governance or the meta governance between blockchain ecosystems is looking at geopolitics. So there's gonna be times where you have joint decision-making between two blockchain ecosystems. There are already the beginnings of governance bodies that reside higher than the actual ecosystem level. But it's just gonna be a really interesting thing to observe as blockchain matures how the governance of various systems, it will interact with each other. Great. There's another question for you, Kristen, on the IEEE standard. So for the IEEE standards, is there any work plan for the lower layers, e.g. the consensus protocol besides governance? Are there any requirements on privacy aspects and environmental impacts? Oh yeah, most certainly. So there are actually dozens of working groups within the IEEE right now that are dealing with blockchain technology across all sorts of areas, specifically privacy. I know that there is at least one working group that is dealing with privacy right now. I'm not sure if they're progress, but I'd be more than happy to put you in contact with them. I'll plot my email in the chat if you wanna just shoot me an email regarding that. But long story short, tons of opportunities to contribute regardless of what your specialty is. There are even like vertical specific working groups. So if you're like specifically fascinated with like supply chain and blockchain, there are groups dealing with that under the IEEE or IoT and blockchain, the list goes on. Great. There's one more question and then we'll go to the final panel. And I see that Leanne had to drop off. So the question is, where do you see the industry moving with our favorite word of the month? Oh no, it's a new month. Maybe it's not this one of this month. NFTs, non-functional tokens. So anybody have any thoughts or ideas around where you see the industry moving in regards to NFTs? Yeah, so I think again, it tops on the irreverence of the industry. That's, it's kind of misunderstood. Like the applicability of NFTs actually and the usability is going to grow. There are serious applications, but of course it gains pro, the news are never covering boring business topics. They're always trying to find something sensational and crazy. So maybe you can get like the 69 million NFT covered and then everyone has a craze for some pixels putting in random order onto an image and getting a lot of money. And because of that, it becomes something crazy. But in reality, I think I will see a lot of applications in certifications use cases. You will see a lot of portability, for example, of certifications of education. There is a lot of that can be done in that sense. And I think also a lot of use cases on many artistic fields for sure. There is the media entertainment seek at the hyper ledger that is looking very closely at water applications. And that can bring, we were discussing earlier and also this idea of the sustainability and circular economy, right? That if you're bringing this into also the blockchain as an industry and becoming more secular, then you're gonna bring new revenue models for artists as a whole and new ways for them to monetize their work, they were not there before. So I think there is plenty, leave alone the sensationalism and a bit of the crazy, crazy headlines, the technology is very solid. You will see more of it coming. And thank you for mentioning the media entertainment seek. I put the link in the chat as well. So that was one of our newest special interest groups focused and they've been having some presentations by Verizon, which is big telecom company around the transparency, their media transparency initiatives. There is Panini, which is a 118 year old company that has been doing trading cards and other sports paraphernalia that people collect, collectibles, I guess they're called. And two years ago, they use hyperledger sawtooth to build an NFT platform. So it's not new, people have been working on this for a while. There's very interesting use cases happening in hyperledger as well as outside of hyperledger in the public spell as well. We actually have, we're gonna have one of the, our conference that's coming up, Hyperledger Global Forum, which is a conference that is happening in the middle of June, June 8th through the 10th. It's gonna have two segments, one for Europe, North American, one for Asia and Europe. So you could attend sessions at any time and we'll have one of, there's a couple of talks on NFTs and there's gonna be a keynote as well. As well as keynotes and talks on interoperability, on how to get involved in open source communities, what training and opportunities are there. So it is, I'm gonna plug the Hyperledger Global Forum, which is on June 8th through the 10th, a virtual this year as well. So I have one more question as we say goodbye to everybody and let me see if I can share this with you. So, we were kind of talking about a little bit about what our career paths are or where people should go to get involved with blockchain. So that's me, I'm about two years old, maybe two, yeah, two years old. And what advice would you give to your younger self, looking at yourself, obviously not a two because we don't understand that as well, but what would be the advice that you would like to tell yourself about how to get into blockchain? Let's see, Alex, you wanna start? We'll go off the medical. Sure. So first I would say find allies and ask for what you need explicitly. Don't be shy, just go straight. And personally, if you're in the audience and you want to get into blockchain, feel free to connect on LinkedIn and drop me a line. Always happy to mentor and to find new opportunities for new people in the industry. If the industry is growing, it means that new people needs to come in. And if people don't know about blockchain, that's a good opportunity to learn about blockchain. So not knowing about blockchain is very normal. And also as an industry, we are figuring it out. We also don't know, we're still experimenting. So it's all good. So come and join us. And by the way, I can see our passions about career opportunities and organization. I reiterate, Chinsac is hiring for engineering roles and for interns in marketing. So definitely. And the second advice, second and last advice to my youngest self in blockchain. So just consistency is really overrated. Don't be shy and don't think that because you started a career in something that you cannot pivot. I think you are, everyone is a symphony of selves, right? We're not just one monolithic person. So nurture all of them and just go in and be quite bold and fearless about it. Yeah. No. I can go next. Go ahead, Rani. Yeah. Yeah. So first of all, that's a cute picture. I mean, hello. Thank you. And taking a cue from what Alex mentioned. So nurturing, she mentioned. So yes, nurturing and compassion is strong to us, strong to women. So if I look back, I would say go with that strength. And that's our strength. That's not a weakness. So go with that. Every business, every organization, every team needs that. Needs that compassion, needs that nurturing. Feel more confident to bring in that balance in the organization that you're going to. What I would tell my younger self is get started today. Even if you aren't positive that you want to be in this industry, sample, start contributing in some fashion, reach out to one of us. Anything that you can do, just get started. Get started. Jump in. That's really good advice. And actually, I would rather like directing the advice to my younger self. I would like to direct it to all those people who are starting their professional careers. And just don't be arrogant, but be bold and don't be afraid of getting out of your comfort zone and making mistakes. That's fine. You can learn a lot in those type of situations. Be curious and don't stick to one thing. Especially as you've seen, blockchain brings together so many different things. And in my experience, it's better to be great at a number of things, trying to be the best at one, only one thing. And maybe something for life that's also strived for balance in your life. Everything is not about work. And in my case, for example, sports has been and continue to be a key part of my life. I couldn't survive without sports. Sorry. What sports are you into? Yeah, beach volleyball, crossfit. Take one, though. Oh, boy. Excellent. Well, I know we're at the time. I want to thank all the panelists for putting this together. I want to thank the organizers of the Hyperledger India regional chapter and St. Gitz for putting the panel together, for offering these opportunities for our communities to talk together and hopefully to be able to learn from one another. I think hopefully what we came out of it today is that we're all very bullish on the technology, but also very cognizant that it is about people. It's about people and the humans and the goals that we want for a future, a future financial economy, a future climate, a future for our children is really important. So thank you, Alex, Chila, Kirsten, Raji, and to Leigh Ann, who had to leave for joining us. And once again, thank you to the India regional chapter and to the St. Gitz team. You all are fabulous. And stay safe, be good to one another, and we'll see you soon.