 from Orlando, Florida. It's theCUBE, covering Sapphire Now. Headlines sponsored by SAP HANA Cloud, the leader in platform as a service. With support from Consolink, the cloud internet company. Now, here are your hosts, John Furrier and Peter Burris. Hey, welcome back everyone. We are here live in Orlando, Florida for Sapphire Now. This is SiliconANGLE Media's exclusive coverage of Sapphire. This is theCUBE, our flagship program. We go out to the events and extract the signature noise. I want to thank SAP HANA Cloud and Consolink. ConsolCloud is the head Twitter handle for sponsoring us for being here. Thanks again, Cap Gemini sponsor, appreciate that. Our next guest is Joe Coyle, Cap Gemini Senior Vice President, Global CTO. We have someone who's in the trenches, also a Global CTO. Welcome to theCUBE. Oh, thank you, great to be here. First of all, you guys are always out there and we saw some of the virtual stream guys last night at dinner at Capital One with all their customers. It was a packed table. There is demand for cloud, no doubt. And it's going to be hybrid. We've seen that clearly, but it's complicated. It's not as easy as just throwing some cloud up with a cloud native, no other legacy. So you have pre-existing stuff. That's the enterprise. It's challenging. What are you guys doing, first of all, in the cloud and how do you solve some of those unique challenges? So a couple of things there. Yeah, we've been in the cloud for a while. In fact, I was the one that launched the virtual stream partnership, so I'm pretty proud of that. I was talking about those guys when nobody knew who they were. We've taken it from another level. We dabbled in the migrations and the simple infrastructure as a service. Clients immediately demanded more than that, right? Especially CEOs. So we've come up with a three-point process is the best way I would explain it. And it's all a cart. Clients don't have to come in starting with a strategy and then with a run and maintain in the cloud. We don't do it that way. We have three disparate towers, one we call Advice, which is clients, mostly enterprises, that want to figure out what's this journey that cloud look like? What are the benefits of it and so forth? Very much strategy. We have what we call Align, which is more of the project work around journey to the cloud of assessments, migrations, that type of thing, architecting for the cloud and the integration layer. And then we have what we call Anime, which is really the anime. Anime. Which is the run and maintain of the cloud. So it's an outsourcing model with a cloud lens on it. So we've taken that approach and what we really tell clients is everything about the cloud, cloud is an enabler. The cloud is not a solution. It's an enabler. It's the business solutions you put on top of it. So we take a very much a top-down approach that says for every application or business process or business need, we will map it down all the way to that layer. And really our goal is to abstract that cloud technology and give the business value back. At a macro market level, what are some of the things that you're hearing from CEOs? I mean, you're in conversations all the time. What's the trending conversations? What are you- Yeah. The top three trending items. I mean, is it classic profit growth? Or is it much more under the hood or both? It's all about this year, I guess the last year, CEOs now see the benefits as business enablers, right? And it's part of their own insights plus the marketing people have pounded on them and they're starting to see that. So that's for sure. Their biggest question now is that the speed is way too fast for most enterprises. And I would say nine out of 10 CEOs I've talked to, including one yesterday, his biggest issue is I understand this, I get it. It is moving so fast by the time we make a decision, we're already two miles behind. The third one is that- Just if there's a fear missing out at the same time, fear being left behind. Yeah, it's we're running and we're not sure where we're running to. Anyhow, big enterprise struggle with that. The other one I would say that they struggle with is they can't understand why all of a sudden IT is so critical again when for the last 20 years we've been telling them how I cut IT, get on an ERP model, so forth now. We're really yanking them back and it's not just a consultant, it's the business in general. So those are the areas where they're struggling, in my opinion. Yeah, from our perspective, we also see an interesting transformation happen where technology as a way of attending to the operating model for the business, how you take business generating activities and turn them into profit through the operating model. A lot of technology went under that. Now we're seeing technology become a major feature of decisions about the business model. The promise you're making to your customers, how you engage those customers, how you deliver value, how you capture value back from the customers. How are we starting to think about the relationship between technology and business model and as you go and talk to CEOs, what kinds of conversations are you having with them about the range of options that they might have never thought of before because of what technology can do for them? That's a great question and I love that question. So really what I tell them is for years, and I've been in IT for 30-something years, on both sides of the house, it's always been the business coming up with an idea and then asking IT to enable it. And the IT people were very much hardcore IT, like anything from developers, engineers, and so on and so forth. Now the IT people have to have a lot more business sense because it's more of a 180 flip where the business has needs and it's the IT people coming up with the better ways of doing it or the advanced ways of doing it or even literally just taking a process that's been in place for three years and say, hey, with cloud and all these new platforms and so forth, I can take what we're doing now and make it three times better. So you're starting to see business-savvy people in IT because quite frankly those legacy engineers and things like that come with the platform, right? So people have to morph themselves. So it's a wonderful situation because it's a function. It's adaptive. I mean, the old IT, I don't want to pitch it home as racking and stacking boxes, running cables, running help desks, but again, that was the cost side of the operations, but as the needs come in, you don't got to be a rocket scientist if you're in IT thinking, damn, I'm going to be out of a job if I don't start adding more value versus some of the mainframe guys who some guys held onto the mainframe and stayed there with it. Although I think, John, that's one of the big mistakes that certainly a lot of people made is that a mainframe and a person who manages the mainframe are not the same thing. People do change and people do learn. That's right. It may take longer than we want or longer than we expect, but there's a lot of COBOL programmers out there 25 years ago who are creating some really good value for their business utilizing some of these new technologies. I started as an Assembler programmer. There you go. So there you go. So did I. And I stopped as an Assembler programmer. I learned how to program Assembler and never did it again. That's what I did. Thank God for the C programming language which came along saved me, but no, but this brings up the technology. This is a good pivot. So in the market facing activities, this pressure to run top line. So we go from IT being the cost center now, profit center, mindset, you see the shift. What is some of the dynamics you're seeing in technology? What is that? Is it the DevOps piece in the cloud? Is it agility? I mean, agility is just a word. But what does that mean? How do these organizations actually implement the technology? What are you seeing from the use cases? Is it simply just public cloud with a mix of on-premise? Is there certain technology like Docker or microservices? Are the things that are bubbling up from the tech that are enabling this? Yeah, it's a moving stack. That's the best way I would put it. We started out, the number one thing, it all started out with public cloud, right? It was new, it was interesting, and it was all about saving money, right? And it wouldn't work. Consumption-based models, right, right, exactly. So, but we had some success there. We saved clients money, right? Just taking them to the consumption-based model. It's shutting things off if you don't need, not productive systems, but others. Then what really came out of it, the big enterprises that we saw was the speed to value, where they suddenly realized that they can do things quickly. And I mean, even, we've put procurement companies, our procurement division's out of business. I mean, you don't need 13 weeks to bring up a server anymore, you need a credit card and a couple of things. And that was which tech? It's just cloud and what was mean tech? That was just public cloud. And being able to spin things out, spin things down. So those were the two driving forces early, but nobody was buying into the product and type and everything. Then what we saw was, I was actually a believer that there wouldn't be a massive hybrid stop in this journey. But I earned in that one, and the reason I did it was because these enterprises, they were so complex in their environments that there has to be a traditional data center, private or hybrid public that's going to happen. And this migration is going to take years. So- But they're not mutually exclusive, that's the thing. Right. They're integrated. Well, but it's, there is, for a while, the popular IT organization was by platform, right? So we have a mainframe group and- Exactly. Unmitted computer group, AS for hundreds of axes, PC support group. So it's not quite analogous to that. But here's, I was talking to CIO about a week and a half ago, about this very topic, financial services, who observed that the reality is, we don't want to stay on our legacy systems, but we don't know how to get off of them. Yes. They are not structured, they're not organized, the amount of work, not to re-host them, but just to take, just to scan through them and turn them into things that lend themselves to a lot of these new development methods and a lot of these new technologies would be prohibitively expensive and risky. And so they're compartmentalizing them and trying to find ways to envelope them, et cetera. Are you in your practice, as you go out to cloud, are you starting to see the idea that hybrid is? Here's where the legacy is, don't necessarily think about re-hosting that. You know, build a new over here and find ways to, is that the new hybrid model that you see? Exactly, it just picks up on where we left off. We're seeing that, you know, we're seeing this journey, we're seeing that, that almost happened by default, because as we migrated through, enterprises were starting to realize that the world will be hybrid and some of my stopgap or jump off solutions are actually very good solutions and they're stopping there. And that brings it to the dockers and the microservices. So we're at this point now where, they're in a constant state of flux, they're moving applications around, taking advantage of newer technologies based on leases and stuff like that, but now with this microservices and they're saying, well, now we have the ability to, we can be wrong and still be right, because we can make these landing areas on what we think. We can be wrong on the architecture, but we can be overall right because if we use containerization in somebody's new environments, as we decide or as things improve, we can start moving. So it's no longer this massive lift and shift now. You can get it right. Right, now it's- I'm not be wrong. So I mean, the moral of the story, what I tell them is infrastructure is a commodity, we all know that, right? It's also abstracted. Put your thought pattern up at the top of that stack around the applications of business processes. If you do it right, you'll be able to take advantage of these technologies as they emerge or die. So we're advising our customers to think context first. What is the work that has to get done? The community, who's going to do it, including thinking about your partners, and then look at the capabilities that are going to make you better at anybody else working at that community. So we start with we go context, community, capabilities. Does that resonate with you? It does, absolutely. Fits the map perfectly, and that's exactly what we're building. And can we steal those words? Because I actually like the- Yeah, send it to you. You got to become a Wikibon subscription customer. But we'll talk about that. John Greco, we'll get all the information you guys know. But I love that thought where you put your energy and I love that, top of the stack, because you can kind of get it right because it isn't moving train, but it's moving in the right direction. So whichever car you jump on, doesn't matter as long as it's flexible and portable. Exactly, it may not be there, it may be there later. What use cases can you point to that you guys have worked with in this example? Can you point to so many case studies that you've been successful with, and why was it successful? Well, yeah, we could take in a couple parts. We have a bunch of different clients doing different things. The first successful one we had, which is actually still ongoing was a CIO that wanted to do something pretty simple. He wanted to migrate his SAP environments to the cloud. And he saw a lot of synergies in it. They wanted to get out of the hardware business and so forth. So we laid out, and we did exactly what I just explained. We talked about a top-down approach. Don't get hung up on the infrastructure. Long story short, after we had the conversation, ran it through a couple business cases. He called me back in and said, what about everything? Like in the enterprise? Yeah, like everything we have. And we're in a process of shutting down their data centers and a full-blown migration to the cloud, but doing it in a way that gives them the flexibility where they're not being vendor-specific, although they are. They wanted that flexibility, so that's why. They're abstracting away the vendor, but keeping them around when they need them. Exactly, exactly. So Joe, I'm going to ask you what might be regarded as an inflammatory question. And here it is. So many years ago, I did a piece of research, or a team I had did a piece of research, and we discovered that for an SAP implementation in the mid-1990s, $1 software, $7 services. I think it's hard. 10 years later, it was $1 software, 17 or more dollars of services. Normally, the cost per unit comes down as you gain experience, but because the professional services organizations or sellers were largely focused on buildings, they took that experience and they found ways to pad the engagements. You're a cloud professional services organization, trying to keep things simple, trying to drive people to the cloud. How are you helping them gather all the experience that Capgemini has about all these different technologies and keep it simple for your customer? Get it done faster, get it done right, get it done with the alignment that's necessary. Yep, I just call them patterns. We have a lot of success in migrations and so far. SAP specific, I've been working with SAP for 24 years now. What I tell my team is when we do a migration or a net new or anything in the cloud, we do it once and it gets industrialized. When I say industrialized, I mean hit a button and we've done that. I can't imagine an SAP workload that we can't move the actual application, I'm not talking about data, because there's obviously legacy time lapse there. There's not one we can't move in 30 to 90 minutes, any of them. 30 to 90 minutes. 30 to pick up that application and move it. How do you say 30 to 90 days? No, no, because minutes, because we have the scripting, we know how to do renames, we know how to do here as engineers. So it's automated and that's how we industrialize. Now the data and everything is a little different. So our goal is really anything we migrate or build in the cloud, we do that same thing. We're building an actual cloud automation factory in our Indian operations. And their goal in life is to take everything we do net new, completely industrialize it, automate it, so we can offer that back to our clients. You're productizing your services. Yes, we're actually cannibalizing ourselves on our own. Are you literally looking at contracts and say how many processes do you want moved and we'll do 30, 60, 30 to 90 minutes for each and every one of them? Yeah, that's the goal, that is the goal. And it's not pay by the hour, right? So there's no record, so to put it, yeah. And it's object-based. Well, you look at it, the thesis is you get happy customers, they'll spend more, they'll find other things to do. Of course. Right, their thought processes. Joe, thanks so much for sharing the insight here on theCUBE. I much appreciate it. I welcome to theCUBE alumni, Joe Coyle, Senior Vice President Cap Gemini, Cloud Services here inside theCUBE, live at Sapphire now. You're watching theCUBE. Thank you. Let's go. There'll be millions of people in the near future that want to be involved in their own personal well-being and wellness. Nobody wants to age in a way that we're bound to a chair or a bed. 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