 Okay, what up everybody? Jews and dudettes. As you guys are used to hearing me say, welcome to episode 106 of the podcast. Joining me today is my old friend Monique Colvin from cptsdcoach.com. What up Monique? I'm so happy to see you. I'm so happy to see you. We've been doing this like a year and a half together, you and me. I can't believe it. It's crazy, right? Yeah, and it does feel like we're old friends. It does. So Monique and I have been, you know, still communicating back and forth here and there, even though we haven't done an episode together in a while. And you posted on your Instagram the other day, a reference to the feeling of feeling safe or not feeling safe, and it really like being a light bulb in my head. I said, oh, we need to talk about this. Because it's a topic that comes up all the time in my circles with, you know, my people, and then my people and your people, and then we have overlapped people. So, um, anxiety, anxiety, when we feel anxiety or anxious, we don't feel safe. Yeah. And what I have found in my travels is that, you know, the stuff that I talk about all the time, facing the fear, going into it, the cognitive behavioral stuff, it teaches people that they are safe even when they feel anxiety and panic. But many people who have that trauma background or abusive background of those past experiences coloring the way they see this, they have a hard time achieving that, you know, like, okay, I understand I'm safe from the panic, but yet why don't I ever feel safe doing this? And it's heartbreaking because I see that there's other stuff going on there that is hindering that. So that's what I kind of wanted to talk about with you, like when you are dealing with somebody who is going through the process of trauma recovery, like how do they deal with building a sense of safety and security, you know, when they're going through that stuff? Is it different than what I talk about? Well, it's not easy. I think one of the things I really like to do, I wish someone would have told me that, is that it's very, very normal to feel the way that you feel, to kind of feel like you're on survival mode all the time, if you have developmental trauma. So if you were born in an environment where you didn't have a secure attachment, where you didn't have your primary caregiver to show you how to regulate and become, you already have this kind of disposition towards survival mode. Your body is always looking like you've got, you're always looking like, is this dangerous? Is this dangerous? Is this dangerous? That's kind of the, excuse me, the survival mode that you end up kind of operating in. And even cognitively, like you know, this doesn't make sense. But we're talking biology here. So it's like your body's doing one thing, but you're like, this doesn't make sense. I know I'm safe. Right. Oh, you've got these two. So the first thing, the first thing I really like to explain to people is there is nothing wrong with you. This is how you develop, this is your biology. And really like your environment shapes your biology. So you can't kind of, when you see that and you understand that you can have more compassion on yourself. I know for myself, I was furious and angry and just like so pissed off. Why couldn't I just do this? Why am I always afraid? I didn't understand like the background. So we really start with that, but it makes sense that there's nothing wrong with you and that, you know, yes, your body did learn to be hyper vigilant and is hyper vigilant, but it can also learn to experience a sense of safety. Yeah. And this is something that I see people get, they get frustrated, like you're talking about, they're angry, they're like, well, what's wrong with me? I'm out and I'm doing the driving, the supermarket, all the stuff that I talk about. Why am I, why is it's not clicking with me? They feel so frustrated. And then sometimes when you get to talking, you discover like, oh, well, there was some stuff in the background there that taught them to be constant. So I'm usually addressing like how to feel safe in the midst of anxiety, panic or specific situations. They just live with this constant sense of, when am I going to get broadsided here? And sometimes they don't even recognize that they've had, they've been taught that from an early age. I'm so glad that you understand this because unfortunately, some people don't. And so they might go for help. And not even, you know, the person that they're reaching out for, that was my case, doesn't even understand any of that. And we'll be like, it's almost like they're telling them or, or with or without words. Yeah. Like we need to fix this. What's, what's up with that? You know, and then you start to feel like, oh my gosh, what's up with me? What's wrong with me? Yeah, I hear that all the time. Like, I don't know why I'm not getting this. I see everybody else getting it. I can't get it. And I actually credit you for that, to be honest with you. Like, you know, yes, our, our association and hearing what you have to say and following you, like has informed me a little bit more, like there's usually some red flags that go up. I'm so glad that you could say, well, there's more than just a simple anxiety disorder going on here. And nine times out of 10, that is the case. So. And I'm, I'm, it makes me so happy because you're trauma informed. You understand that. And, and, and, you know, you'll be able to be supportive and point maybe in a, you know, direction, a little extra help over here or something. But I know for myself, I was experiencing that for many, many years. And I was given the label of generalized anxiety disorder, as you know. And I was doing all the stuff that you, that's recommended and nothing was really, I was still, I was still living in fear all the time. It's so interesting that you mentioned the, the GAD, you know, diagnosis, because so many people who are listening to the podcast and they're in my group and stuff, GAD is a big topic. And the more experts, I try and talk to people smarter than me about things that I don't, I'm not expert on and invariably with GAD, a lot of times I'm told by some pretty experienced clinicians, usually there's some other stuff underneath that that you have to be looking for. And when I talk to some of these folks that are saying, well, what is my exposure for GAD? A lot of times they have learned those defensive habits, those thinking habits that go back years and years and years that keep them on guard all the time. And then, you know, sometimes you have to do a little bit of the work to uncover what's going on there. Yeah. Yeah. So let's talk for a second about, you know, if I'm talking, if I'm dealing with somebody who's, you know, trying to resolve a simple anxiety disorder, not simple, but, you know, not compounded by trauma, for instance, like agoraphobia, it's just, well, you're going to learn to be safe by just repetitive process. You're going to go into the sphere, you're going to experience it fully, you're not going to try and save yourself. And you learn through experience that like, oh, it's okay to have a panic attack in the supermarket. And you learn and you move on. What's the process for somebody who has been through some, some dark things in their past, who has learned to be on guard all the time? It's not as simple as go to the supermarket and panic in the frozen food section. No, not at all. But I'm guessing that the idea is the same, you know, that you're, you know, I think the very first thing always is creating a sense of safety. So you entitled this building a sense of security. You have to build your sense of security or safety or whatever it is. Yeah. So for me, it would be safety. Safety is number one for people who have had trauma. And so that is what I would really be starting with. I do some trauma education so that they understand that there's nothing wrong with them, that they make sense. And then really, okay, starting to develop a sense of safety so that they can feel safe inside. And yeah, because for many people, that's what they experienced was this feeling of not being protected, not being safe, being threatened all the time. And you want to help them to experience what it feels like to be safe. And for many, it starts in a safe relationship. And so when they're with someone, they can experience that feeling of what it's like to be in a relationship that's safe. You know, we have something called mirror neurons. And really, and you just know, you can have someone walk into the room that's highly anxious and you feel it. That's because my nervous system reads your nervous system. And I can pick up, you know, on what you're feeling. It's just, it's just how we're designed. Yeah, well, you smiled because I smiled. Yeah, mirror neurons. Exactly. So simple. It's ridiculous. I mean, so that's one of the things and that really, really helps a person because then they start to experience safety. So one of the things that I really recommend for people is to have that. And that can be that that can be really just through a friend that feels safe. It can be an animal that feels very regulating having an animal around you safe relationships. That I'm guessing is there some measure of repetitiveness that has to go into that though, because when you start to the way it's described to me is for unknown reasons, unknown to people sometimes like, I don't know, I just suddenly feel like the floor is about to fall out from underneath me. You know, I'm having all these anxious feelings. And maybe sometimes it's not even in a particularly anxious situation. You know, how do I deal with that? And to me, like the mechanics of that as well, you have to understand that you might feel unsafe right now, but you are and if you don't go into panic mode, you'll still wind up okay. But there's got to be a little more underneath that. Like, well, this is now and that was then now is not then. Yeah, a part of that. I'm not sure how somebody would really have to address that and unpack that. Yeah, I mean, I used to tell myself, you're safe, you're safe, you're safe, you know, that doesn't always work. Because you still feel, okay, I'm safe, but I feel, and even like what you said with the the year, you know, sometimes it is good to stop and say, you know, I am not a child anymore, I'm an adult and it's 2020. You know, maybe sometimes that can work. But but also this thing of regulation, because what happens when we're feeling very anxious is that our nervous system is feeling at, you know, it's feeling dysregulated. So when I talked about connection with someone that's one way, but there's also things that we can do to kind of bring that down. So one of the things that they say is really helpful, because when you're in that state, they often say that it's because you're not in the present moment, you're either thinking about something in the future, or you could be kind of feeling stuff from the past. So there's a simple, a simple exercise that can be helpful, it's called Oriental. And it's something that animals actually do after they've been through something that's been kind of like traumatic, it kind of like brings you back to the to the moment. And what that is, is it's like, you sit down in a comfortable chair. And it's really, this is a really simple exercise, but you you, let's say you're in your room, you look around your room, and you let your eyes do the movement. And you just kind of orient yourself. And you look around, and maybe your eyes will land on something pretty, like right now, I'm looking out the window. And I see a branch, and it's moving like that looking. So you just kind of look around. And what that does is it slows your nervous system down. And it brings you back into the present moment. Yeah, now, right now. Now. Yeah. So it's not just a cognitive, like, okay, you're safe now. It's 2020. You're actually you've done something so that your nervous system is actually, you're here and now. Yeah. So that's one way. So sometimes we really have to do things with our body to bring us to the present moment. Yeah, it's a doing thing. Right, right. Let's let's talk about that for just a second, because people who have been following me will have heard me jump all over that multiple times. But hang on, hear me out here. That's why I want to clarify because they're going to say like, well, how come it's okay when Monique says it? You know, I'm fine. But so let me clarify that. That is, yes, that is a technique that's used quite often to teach emotional regulation in varying circumstances. It's big in dialectical behavior therapy, and it is a valuable thing. So that's that that's an emotional regulation and grounding technique. And it does have value. It's often peddled as when you're having a panic attack, look for everything blue count the count the yellow things you could see, which just fuels the fire. So this is complicated because you can't necessarily use that to bring yourself out of level 10 panic. Like it often doesn't work because you don't have the ability to like, and people that are experiencing derealization find that that technique sometimes makes it worse because they're trying to force themselves back into that reality. But it is a valuable technique when you are just feeling that general. Yeah. So what do you say like a five, like a five, like a seven? Yeah. Yeah. People who are experiencing just that general background anxiety all day long would probably do well to start to use that technique on a regular basis, along with the breathing, the relaxation to focus that technique is probably a good one to practice that you're talking about. Because what you're saying actually makes sense in that when we are dysregulated, our prefrontal cortex goes offline. There's no, you can't There's no reasoning. Yeah, exactly. No, I get that. I mean, I was told to do some certain CBT things when I was out of 10. I'm sorry, I couldn't do it. No, those are useful when you're more rational. Yeah, in the moment, those don't work so well. So another way talking about ways to establish safety is really some some really simple things are we want to feel a sense of control. We want to feel a sense of order. And so sometimes it's just as simple as, you know, having a schedule and knowing that I'm going to do this at nine o'clock, I'm going to do this, kind of like it brings a sense of order and control. And that's something that people who are feeling anxious and don't feel safe, they want to feel order and a sense of control. So that's something that can also be be helpful to implement. Yeah, I think that's that's something that I talk about all time. It's usually it's usually helpful when you're addressing panic disorder and agoraphobia and things of that nature to like, you know, I always tell people schedule your exposures and do them when you schedule them, make a morning routine and execute it every day, even if it's a boring mundane, silly sequence of tasks like brushing your teeth, combing your hair, making coffee, do it, start your day by actually executing a plan that you made and you did it. Yeah, you know, accomplish something, get into a routine. So that's good. I think that helps in all cases. It helps, you know, in all cases. So that's pretty cool. And your feeling is like, you know, when you start to engage in those things repetitively, you can, I was just going to jump on that because that's what you were talking about before where we both kind of agree. How does change actually happen? Like, how does it, how does it change? How do we change? And we can, we can think about it all we want. We can have mental, you know, and that really, we can understand things that way. But how does change happens? Dr. Bruce Perry, who's a trauma psychologist, child psychologist, he talks about how if we have been conditioned and our brain has learned to be afraid, it needs repetitive, repetitive, repetitive experiences of success and of accomplishment and of completion. And so that's what we have to do. We have to do it and do it and do it again and again and again until our brain learns that this is a new way of doing things, a new way of being. I mean, you know, you've heard me say this even on here. I used to be petrified of driving far and going on the highway and, and it, you know, I couldn't just think my way out of it. I knew it wasn't rational. I knew I could drive. I've got my license. I've got a credit card. I, but I, yeah, well, it took repetitive, repetitive and I can do it with my eyes closed. I wouldn't do it with my eyes closed. Don't do that. I like you the way you are a lot. This is what I mean. It took and that's how the brain learns. Yeah. And that's great. And I think you're such a good example because I know what you struggled with and you solve that the driving problem, for instance, which is resonates with many, many people who are listening to us right now. And you had the complication of a, of a past that, that taught you some bad lessons, you know, and you still managed to overcome that. And I think I cannot stress enough the repetitive thing. And what you just said, like that just makes me smile in a big way. You can listen and read and learn and watch videos and listen to podcasts and like there's only so many Brené Brown videos you can watch when at some point you have to do the things. So I'm always telling people to do the things. You're also telling people to do the things. They might be slightly different activities, but, but experiential learning is the most, it might be the greatest gift we have to overcome. And you know, because we feel this sense of fear and lack of control and we, that I can't do it, you know, when we do do it and we experience the, I can do it. Oh my goodness, the empowerment that we feel. Yeah. You know, and then again, oh yeah, it's yeah, do it again. See, this is why we, this is why we're buds do it again. Excellent job. Now go do it again. That's great. And so I like the idea you're feeling like, you know, this, that general feeling underneath everything that says, I don't know, I just don't feel safe. I don't feel safe. I don't feel secure. I, or I've heard people say, I always feel vulnerable. You can do these things. And you know, I talk about, lately I've been talking a lot about things like confidence and competency, the feeling of competency and competence. And you can build that. And I think when you, maybe when you're building that, you're also building that sense of security, safety, you're getting rid of the vulnerability like, no, no, no, I got this. I'm okay. Yeah. Yeah. I do want to say something that is really important. And that is that to do it alone is hard. You really do need to do it with someone that you have, someone that has your back that can encourage you. We needed it from our parents. And unfortunately, sometimes we didn't have that, but we can still have those needs met today with friends, with therapists, with coaches. We can still do it. Yeah. And I think it's probably super important to pick the right people. I mean, we can have friends in our life that love us and care for us, but don't necessarily serve that function. You know, like the coddling versus the encouraging person and also picking a therapist. Maybe we'll talk about that for a few minutes before we sort of wrap it up here. Sometimes the stuff that I'm generally addressing and the stuff that you're generally addressing are two different therapists, they're two different coaches, they're two different backgrounds and educations. And sometimes it's difficult for people to understand, like, well, I can't afford to therapists or I don't even have one therapist, like, how am I going to find somebody who can fix my anxiety and my trauma? Do you have anything to say about that? Well, I would say what you're doing, there are so many free groups that are supportive and that is what you do. You get involved, you connect with a group that is supportive, and I'm sure, I shouldn't say I'm sure, but I know here where I live, there are some free support groups that you can attend. So that's what I would say. Yeah. I would agree with that. I'm going to go so far as to say this, like if you're dealing with an anxiety disorder and it's complicated by PTSD, CPST, past abuse, that sort of stuff, I kind of think that if you have to pick one, you pick a monique. I'm not saying to go ahead and hire a monique, but you pick and you go to the internet or a Facebook group or whatever you can, you read for the behavioral and cognitive stuff. I feel like there's so much emotional fragility that comes along with the trauma and the PTSD stuff that it's, it might be more useful to have professional help in resolving that part. You can read the agoraphobia and anxiety handbook, you can buy books, you can listen to podcasts and practice doing those mechanical things. Sometimes I feel like the support of a compassionate therapist and coach, or if you have that person in your life as a friend, if you got to pick one, pick somebody to help you with that part. Yeah. Yeah. And go to the internet or books or the library for the anxiety part if you have to pick, but you got to do it all. At some point, you got to do it all. Yeah. I think. Got anything else? And I always like, well, I just always like to encourage people that things can get better because I know in my, in my situation, our biggest fear, like in the past, was that it's always going to be like this. And then we just, we just get terrified. And I want to say, nope, it doesn't have to be that way. Our brain has the ability to change. Even like, I don't know if I share this with you, but I, I read this quite recently and that, you know, even if we didn't have a secure attachment with our caregivers, many people think I'm screwed. That's it. I didn't have, you know, that closeness with my mom or dad and so forget it. But if those seats for secure attachment are still in our biology, they're waiting. Yeah. And all we need is somebody that we can connect with. And we can have that secure attachment now in the present and we can heal. Yeah. So it's very, it's very hopeful. I spent an hour on live video yesterday on that exact topic. The topic was the past doesn't have to be a prison. And so many people, I think labor under the assumption that yeah, I get the program that you're talking about here. I understand what I have to do, but it's, it's impossible because my mom did this or my dad did this or I learned these things. It's impossible for me. And I don't believe that to be true. I think that we have the ability to learn new ways based on new experiences, hard though it may be. So I'm so happy to hear you say that. It's so encouraging, I think to hear you say that. Are we good? We're good. I think we're good. I think we're good. We did okay. We didn't go for a marathon. That's good. We can't always be on a marathon session. So if people want to find you, where can they find you? So they can find me on Instagram. They can find me on Facebook at CPTSDcoach.com. And I also have a website at CPTSDcoach.com. Right. So everything is CPTSDcoach. Yes, Monique's podcast is really good. Short, sweet. And you've been talking to some really impressive guests lately. Yeah, I have. It's been awesome. So that's how the healing, the healing trauma and CPTSD podcast. I remember the discussions. What should I call it? Should I call it that? Sure, call it that. It's all good. It's always fun. So I appreciate your time. As always, we'll do more of these. I know we will. And yeah, I'll guess I'll kill the recording. If you guys have questions and comments, ask, like especially in the group because Monique is in the group and the Facebook group. So sometimes she can chime in with she has time and see you guys in the next one.