 Welcome everybody to today's webinar. We are coming live to you from Melbourne from the International Digital Curation Conference, and today's webinar is about Library Carpentry starring Chris Erdman, who is Community and Development Director for Library Carpentry. And Chris, tell us a bit about yourself and what you do. Oh yeah, so I recently, I still feel like it was recent, but I'm closing in on a year almost now of joining the Carpentries as the Library Carpentry Community and Development Director. And I work with the Carpentries, but my project is funded through California Digital Library. So thanks to them and the IMLS, which is a grant agency in the United States. So thanks to them, I'm able to help grow the community, the Library Carpentry Community and get more people involved and run more workshops and just help in general with the skills training in libraries. Great, thank you. I should also say I'm Natasha Simons and I'm from the Australian Research Data Commons, or ARDC, and I'm the Associate Director for the Skilled Workforce Program. And Chris and I, speaking of workshops, are running around the country next week, doing some workshops on Library Carpentry and on developing your skills in the data area. So we have a workshop coming up in Perth on Monday and in Brisbane on Thursday and then in Sydney on next Friday. So if you haven't already heard about those workshops and you'd like to come, if you just go to ardc.edu.au and have a look under events, you'll be able to find that information and there's still time to register. They're free, so please come along if you can. It's about mapping your skills journey and learning a bit more about Library Carpentry and the Carpentries in general. So I will now hand over to Chris to give the presentation. Alright, it'll be a whistle-stop tour in Australia. So, yeah, today I'd like to talk to you a little bit about sort of the background of why the Carpentries and why Library Carpentry, why this is such an important time for us to, you know, train and Carpentries being sort of a way to do that to, you know, really work with our researchers or automate things that we're doing in the libraries. So I'd like to start just, I already gave a little bit of introduction but I can tell you a little bit more about myself. I spent about 10 years in astronomy. So I worked really closely with researchers for a while. I worked in industry so I worked with CNET if some of you may have heard it. And just recently, again, I joined the Carpentry, I joined California Digital Library and so it's a little bit about myself in case you're curious that the picture of me is of the Von Trapp family library. It's in Vermont in New Hampshire. I can't remember exactly. So to frame this a little bit better, so many of you probably are familiar with this that sort of the skills and perspectives that we need to work with data, you know, really the things that the increasing need that we have of working with data is something that has emerged over the years and has become more prevalent in many disciplines now. So you see a lot of people across the spectrum needing to learn more about software and learn about just better ways of working with data. And so we see this everywhere and so I'm trying to move forward here. Let me try that. Click and works too. So one of the examples I have here and there's many examples of this is that this comes from the National Science Foundation of a group of individuals have come together as part of a funded project to look at how universities, how academia can respond to this growing demand, how can they integrate this into their training, their curriculum. And this was a report that came out in 2016 of how they could sort of integrate this into the curriculum and one of the things that I pulled out was this interesting funded project called MSDSE was the more Sloan Data Science Environments and what was interesting about that is that more Sloan gave a bunch of money to certain schools, University of Washington, Berkeley, Columbia I believe or three, there might have been a fourth but they were given this money to sort of catalyze this multidisciplinary data science initiatives at their universities to bring people together around this idea of data science and skills training and I included a link there it's a great report. One of the reasons why I also highlighted is that they say in this report that library spaces and librarians are critical to supporting this they were critical in the initiatives that I listed out so then another report you see in Europe and it's not just Europe but sometimes data science gets wrapped up into open science and so in this report they talk about skills and competencies more associated with open science but again they're talking about data science and helping researchers become more efficient at their work and also librarians across the board and then another report is from industry so this is one from PWC Price Waterhouse Cooper on investing in America's data science and analytics talents the case for action and this is a great report it had academia leaders from academia and leaders from industry talking about what they need and businesses were saying we need people with data skills and colleges were saying universities were saying well we're not there we're not preparing people for this and then the arrow key now works so and then another report I saw recently from LinkedIn saying how many employers are seeking people with data science data scientists data savvy skills I recently visited a data science group at advanced auto parts and there they were saying that they don't necessarily need data scientists they need data savvy workers they need a team of people that are skilled to help with just you know all sorts of aspects of it you know I can particularly with librarians they were saying they have trouble tracking the provenance of data and managing it and so these are things that you know that industry is also looking for so here's a report that I used to follow this community newsletter data science community newsletter and it slowed down I think the one of the primary people behind it Laura and has moved on to industry but before she left she was tracking all the data science initiatives across the US and you can see this was like 70 and counting it's much more now there you know it's growing a lot of universities you know academia is trying to replicate what Berkeley and University of Washington did with the more Sloan data science initiative and another side of this too is not the data science part of it but also that you see a lot of people in research not getting the background in developing software so that really becomes like the backbone science is kind of glued together by all these scripts all these you know all these all the software behind the scenes running things and the people developing them don't get the training that they need and so this is a report from the software sustainability institute that sort of highlights the fact that people are not getting the training that they need to do proper software development in doing the research that they're doing so and we see examples this is just one example many of where mistakes can happen if you don't have proper workflows if you don't have proper training and this led to this Reinhardt and Rogoff that ended up influencing decisions administrative decisions that have repercussions and so this is one of the things reasons why we should care about this but I don't like to focus so much on the negative I really like to focus on the positive of people that have come away and done training and improve the way that they work and so this is a great paper called our path to better science using open science tools and this group the ocean health index actually took carpentries training and they they changed their workflows so they could actually respond to requests about can you give us the data that was associated with this paper or can you tell us why you know this program is operating in a certain way and so they were able to really create a better workflow to just keep track of everything and be better at what they do so it's a great paper I recommend reading it later and then I mean not just from those stories but we have data telling us that researchers are asking for training and this one actually comes from Australia the bioinformatics community saying that they're looking for this kind of training this data science training and additionally we have a NSF report that also talks about sort of the unmet needs of researchers and the training that they need and we did a similar when I was in astronomy we did a similar study and the same thing happened there with the same kind of results so you can see this everywhere you go I think it's common trend so how do we scale data and software models we looked at those reports that we're trying to integrate in the curriculum and things are moving very slowly so one of the things is to train in the gaps to have this volunteer approach this peer led hands on intensive workshops and open collaborative lessons so like people all around the world can contribute to them and because learning this can be difficult and so here is the carpentries I think one of the more important things to say initially is that we are a non-profit and we're not for profit so sometimes I've heard that we are but we really are a community led a volunteer led community so we try to keep our prices down to help the research community and libraries and IT with this training so another thing to point out here too is where does carpentry come from and it's a you think of a tool bell and all the different tools that you have and you know like working on something more applied and that's where it comes from but I think in general it's the approaches to be less more like applied and the things you really need to know as opposed to if you went to a CES class and you learned more theory these are the applied things that you really need to do to be better at working with data and software and so our workshops are two days active learning and they're taught by certified instructors and we have a training program for that talk a little bit about it later and we have feedback, active feedback so you see these post-its sticking up in the class so those are sort of signals to tell people that the instructors and the helpers in the class that I'm doing well or I need help and we also use that to write feedback at different points in the workshop so we can do this active feedback and I just realized that I noticed a colleague in this picture that I hadn't noticed before but we have trained instructors we have a friendly learning environment one of the things that's core to our workshops is our code of conduct and creating a welcoming environment and we take that very seriously and I think every question you have is a good question and we from the very beginning we stress the code of conduct that we have so the other questions that I get about the carpentries and library carpentry, software carpentry, data carpentry is the difference is sometimes people associate with one carpentry or the other it's sort of the history behind this is that we started with software carpentry and it grew into data carpentry and library carpentry and these are sort of different approaches to how carpentry was domain and agnostic it still is and it covers our research workflows software related workflows data carpentry is domain specific so we have lessons on genomics and social sciences and it's more about the data and wrangling with that data and visualizing it and in library carpentry it's about workflows as well about sort of getting onboarded and getting familiar with these research data life cycle workflows and it's about also being able to connect with people being able to learn the language and being able to talk to people about this data science and data science approaches so software carpentry covers command line version control programming data carpentry again I mentioned some of the particular disciplines so additionally you can see atmospheric science library carpentry has a core lesson so you can see data introduction command line version control data wrangling so this is what you get a standard library carpentry workshop so our workshops really have this goal of teaching these skills really helping people get their feet wet and giving them that encouragement to continue learning and that positive learning experience again I mentioned that welcoming environments they're welcome they feel like they're encouraged to learn and don't feel like they don't feel left out and they feel like they're part of something so just to give you a sense of what this all encompasses because it's hard to visualize is that we have 76 member organizations we have 1.6 thousand we have 1600 trained instructors around the world and we run 1700 workshops this is all data from our recent annual report 46 countries 38,000 learners reach that's a lot and 7 continents which is interesting we actually did teach a workshop and Antarctica and there's a nature article about this but I believe the researchers flight was delayed and so she decided to teach a workshop in Antarctica so we have covered all continents which is pretty impressive too another great data point here is who takes these workshops so it's predominantly actually early career researchers that take this workshop and they come at it from different angles so they either want to get that exposure data science exposure so they maybe they're ready to work in industry or they want to be more efficient and work in their just improve the work in their labs and so remember that ocean health index that was an example of like these people are coming to learn how they can improve the work in their lab and it's about 66% of the data carpentry workshops that are early career so this is from pre and post workshop surveys so instructors so how do you become an instructor we teach this education this pedagogy this teaching style and it's through a two day online course and there's three other steps so you have to demonstrate that you can edit a lesson through our github repositories lesson repositories and then one hour discussion of like what do I need to do before to prepare for my first workshop to teach and then a demo of your teaching style it's a five minute demo and so this is really what people go through to become a certified instructor you don't learn how like a tool like are programming language like are you don't learn a tool like open fine these are things you you you have to go through the lessons and teach yourself but teaching someone else something you've learned is the greatest experience of being able to teach yourself first and then teaching someone else and so I mentioned our lessons are open and collaboratively developed and we have engineers that manage these repositories this one's interesting the open refine one you can see someone who's in Australia actually Karmie Cronier who's at CSIRO that actually submitted something to this repository community so we do a lot of other things in our community we have email lists and Slack and discussion lists and I've been told this is actually one of our biggest assets that is not entirely clear from the outside that you have this world of researchers and librarians and IT people at your fingertips that you can ask all sorts of questions and everyone is supportive and it's just an amazing thing and then we also help mentor people and do instructor onboarding and of course the teaching at other institutions and here's some statements about people's experiences help me reshape my workflow into a far more efficient robust process so we've heard that from the ocean health index as well another thing to sort of highlight here is the confidence level you can see from this visualization what people take away from these workshops post workshop survey data and usually like one of the top things is they feel more confident but they also pick up these other things like know how to do reproducibility a little bit more I know coding better so it's great we see an impact back to this idea that we are one carpentries I think people again say software or data carpentry we are all one carpentries there are all these different paths you can take so if you take library carpentry is very I think it's incredible that our lessons are very similar to data carpentry lessons I've taught genomics lessons that are very similar to library carpentry lessons so it really is this path that you can take and say I'm going to start with library carpentry then I'm going to go to maybe teach atmospheric sciences and maybe I'll come back to software carpentry because I want to do like one that a carpentry that's maybe for everyone so it's really all these different paths that you can take advantage of all of our different lessons and a lot of people here might be familiar with this slide with the 23 research data things I equate to library carpentry similarly to the 23 research data things that really it's an onboarding it's really a way for librarians to familiarize themselves with the research data life cycle you know I think these are very similar programs that maybe the next step from 23 research data things was library carpentry and I like showing this image because it shows that what library carpentry does is bring everyone onboard and that's what 23 research data things did is bring everyone to a point where everyone can have a conversation with each other and the same as with library carpentry everyone can have a conversation it's not one individual like a data librarian we're talking about we need everyone onboard we need a team approach to being more data savvy and really responding to increasing data needs from our community and it's growing this is actually an instructor training workshop that was hosted in Portland a while back but we've also since hosted another one in Calgary and we're hoping to host one at library in Europe so there's a lot of demand and interest in Europe right now for library carpentry this is a great example of the New England Software Carpentry Library Consortium NestClick which sounds a lot like NestQuick and what this group did was amazing the you know sometimes it becomes very bureaucratic and hard to make a case for membership in the carpentries in library carpentry and this group decided we're going to share the membership we're going to split it out into different into different schools and one or two librarians will go on to do training and become instructors and we'll have a network and so they keep growing this network and more universities are joining it and so what they're doing is actually creating that team across universities which is amazing and you know now they're talking about what next that they can do and some of the things that they can do to contribute to the community and the National Library of Medicine is another example they ran two workshops and they came out of those workshops saying we want more we want SQL lessons, we want tidy data we want Python programming and so this is something that started to begin now as people have done the library carpentry workshops and now they're interested in more they want to do more with that style of just carpentry-ness and another story I like to point to here is written by a university librarian actually Lane Westbrooks who's near me in North Carolina she's a university librarian at University of North Carolina and she talks about library carpentry and the carpentry being the sort of strategic value that the library can be a hub for these kind of activities so it's not just the librarians who are teaching, it's working with the researchers becoming a member of the carpentries and teaching together and creating this rich network across campus that the library is the lead on, is the home for and another example I like to cite here too is fair data and software carpentries workshop which was hosted in Germany over the summer and it was a creative way to bring librarians and carpentries researchers together around the carpentries training but to integrate fair and I think this is something amazing that we should start thinking about in libraries where it allows us as librarians to bring in context and work with the researchers and really make rich connections around the sort of fair carpentries training and it was amazing to hear them say the researchers in attendance saying I'm here for fair and carpentries and they're excited about both and so I'd love to see this move forward and we are trying to develop more fair based material and the next example is a fair based thanks to ARDC and that spark from Natasha actually we got the encouragement to do something that library carpentry has done before with sprints but this time specifically for fair and to take something that ARDC has developed 10 things and turn it into a resource for fair and so take that hacking approach and the community approach developing material open material on GitHub and this went really well you know one of the things we've heard is that fair has been more generic and it's nice to have these examples at a disciplinary level at a more refined level so you can go to that link it just launched we're really proud of it and I'm just happy that Natasha inspired it it was really great activity and then our lessons you get an overview of our lessons you know again we teach data intro for librarians Unix shell open refine SQL for librarians web scraping tidy data introduction to Python but there's more we're developing lessons like wiki data or data privacy with Python or fair so there's a lot of there's even a digital preservation one that was developed being developed here at this very conference so there's a lot of activity now about that more part which I find really exciting and a lot of times we get this question of like how can I get started there's many ways there's actually a get involved section of the library carpentry site which is really helpful but really you can host you can register to request a workshop and you can host a workshop so instructors come in and teach a workshop and you can get an idea of how they run you can help so if you have you know sort of skills with open refine then you can say I can be a helper and help try and help the instructors in the workshop and go around and help people on their laptops you can teach you can become an instructor so you can become your organization can be a become a member or you can apply yourself and that application process is free so you can do it that way here's a little bit more information about the membership model Silver is really the way that people often go it's what are most popular and that means six instructor seats and then some coordination going on for your workshops and just to close I'd like to close with a report that we ran so this report was really inspired by a program called data scientist training for librarians that we started at Harvard and it was run at Copenhagen actually this picture is in Copenhagen and it really again was a approach of giving librarians a chance to experience this research data life cycle and learn tools and learn approaches and in this workshop we heard time and time again that 38 mentions of the carpentries as a way to move forward the data scientist training for librarians wasn't as scalable as the carpentries and as library carpentry and so that's one of the the great benefits of this network is that it's scalable you know generally can get people in for two days to do training and it builds up this sort of community it has this credit certification process where we can trust that we can trust that instructors will be teaching in the carpentries pedagogy and so we can trust that we can do our assessments and provide you with all this data to tell you what's happening what we are learning the other thing too is that we talked about catalogs in that report and many libraries have their own training programs and they are very hard to find and so one of the things we talked about was the catalog to bring all these lesson materials together but again in the carpentries we developed this open material and there are really these places where all that activity can come together and everyone can work together to build a common resource so there are sort of like some highlights but I encourage you to read it some more it actually is more meant for administrators to understand the complexities involved in helping create a data savvy you know a library team and so this is something maybe hand to your manager or if you're a manager right now you're reading it right now but it's for everyone really I think it's got a lot of helpful information and even for also library schools of how they might approach integrating this training into the curriculum so that's it thank you for the time this is how you can reach me so chris at carpentries.org or I'm libscce on twitter which I've been told sounds a lot like a computer programming compiler I will not compile and that to me in a tweet but maybe someone will try it actually but yeah you can get a hold of me those two ways and thanks again and you can be ready for questions here great thank you so much chris that was a really fantastic talk one of the questions that people might ask is how can they find out what library carpentry courses are available to them here in Australia what the Australian library carpentry community looks like do you have some information on that? yeah so it's actually Australia is one of our biggest a lot of activity happens in Australia around the carpentries a lot of work has been done to grow it here so we do have a lot of instructors and certified instructors we even have programs that are thinking about trainers having trainers and so you see a lot of work so I know group in CSIRO that has a lot of instructors you know a lot of these organizations have instructors I've heard at McQuarrie there was a big movement there and I think one thing is that we're hoping for library carpentry we are hoping for more activity around library carpentry in Australia so we have some library carpentry people here and they help with maintaining our lessons but with all this activity of developing more lessons and the interest in teaching we really are hoping for more people to get involved so that's that's why I'm here great so there's a few people saying hi greetings from Alice Brins hi Ken thanks for joining us I'm keen to learn what opportunities there are to tap into data science learning training opportunities remotely yeah and actually this has come up sometimes in library carpentry of trying to do things more remotely and you know it's part of our ethos to do things hands on because we feel like there's greater impact that is something that's just coming up and people are discussing and I don't know how can I answer that but in general I know people try and do the MOOCs the online training courses and they stop you know they'll go through it and they won't have the same experience that they'll have online where you get to meet people and like form connections you know be really part of that community part of what the carpentries brings so there's that I know in the past I've actually picked up books and self taught myself which is also pretty difficult because you don't have the guidance like a program like the carpentry like library carpentries sort of give you that initial guidance to help you with your further learning so I don't you know I don't know there's so you can't remotely tune into library carpentry at the moment it's very much a face-to-face event right yeah yeah it is you can it's you can sort of lurk around in our in every workshop that we run we use these things called ether pads and they're like you know early versions of Google Docs where people sort of will write out our outline and all the things that we cover in the workshop and you can go to the ether pad and see what we cover and and sort of learn that way as well if you can't attend in person then you can see all that work that was done on the ether pad but our lessons are online so you can walk through that you know if you walk through our lessons that's what we teach so can someone say Ken in Alice Springs can he actually request a library carpentry trainer to come out and just see who's available yeah he can and we should share that link in here but there's on the library carpentry website there's a workshops section and there's a section on requesting a workshop okay and that's where you can go in and request one the thing to note there is that when you request a standard workshop we generally charge $2,500 and that's American so I don't know what that converts to exactly but that's what we usually charge for the travel for instructors to come so sometimes you can self-organize that to keep your cost down and sort of find instructors nearby and so we have maps we have people you can reach out to where you can say are there any people near me and actually a library in Singapore just did this where they said can you help us find some maybe library carpentry instructors nearby and I connected them with some people actually in Australia and New Zealand and one of our instructors is very happy about that because he's never been to Singapore but yeah that's that's one thing I can help you with cost is an issue too okay great thank you okay as a question you mentioned having taught a wide variation of domain specific classes such as genomics what kind of domain specific knowledge aside from the data skills would you say you need to have in order to do this effectively yeah and so I don't have any genomics background but the way that I got familiar with the lesson material was that I started as a helper and learned in the course what the domain questions the domain needs so I got a general sense of what they needed I probably would need to do a little more like do be a helper in another session just to get a little bit more background but again like you have that common technology thread that runs through it and so the context side is something you pick up while you're you know you're helping with the lesson and you know maybe as my next step I wouldn't teach it's generally not a good idea to teach a whole workshop we usually have two instructors sometimes so in other library carpentry lessons I've been at we've had four people three or four people and so you can focus on a particular lesson and so that allows you to step up and you know like pace yourself and become familiar with the content over time and that's how I have at least started with genomics I find it really interesting to learn in the class but also help with the technical challenges which are pretty common you know throughout the lessons so the same things that I was teaching the genomics lesson are things that I saw in library carpentry lessons so I guess people might be a little bit frightened about the type of questions that they might get asked in a domain specific lesson and they might not know the answer to do you have a strategy for dealing with that is it sort of using some of the helpers in the room or well yeah again if you start as a helper you don't answer those questions that's the instructor so you've got to listen to hear what the instructor says but in your next iteration if you decided to teach something then you might pair with a researcher that has that domain background and then ask them hey and that's perfectly fine in our workshops instructors ask each other questions like I don't really understand this can you and that really helps actually in the environment because everyone's like huh my instructor doesn't know everything like they're also learning too at the same time and so yeah and that's very much a part of the carpentries isn't it yeah everyone pitching in together to answer some of those tricky questions pretty much yeah yeah and in fact we have this session called jargon busting which is really um popular with people I love that session yeah everyone gets to chime in it's not just the instructors there are moments when the instructors are just sitting there like what is that what have they put up on the board I don't understand that term and someone in the room will know it and be able to describe it and that just is a great moment to show everyone that you know it's not just one person that knows everything we all know a little piece of the puzzle puzzle yeah so that jargon busting session is when you get to ask all your questions that you've been too embarrassed to ask before a carpentries lesson like what is data wrangling yeah and other things like that and yeah people put all kinds of stuff up there what's an API there's another basic one or I don't know anything you want to ask I've got some really hard ones though what's a hard one I I feel like it was on the last session that I was in and it was it was about someone really kept asking me about XML and XSLT and I hadn't worked in it for so long and so that was pretty challenging and thankfully had someone to help me with that question so yeah cool that's fun I'll just ask by the way if you are interested in becoming an instructor one of the things I'm really trying to do is help people here and we definitely want to grow the community and so if you really feel passionate and want to do this and really the best way to learn is actually to teach this stuff then really contact me and we can find a way we'll find a way if you're passionate enough then we'll find a way yeah Carmel Woods Hi Carmel who's coming all the way from New Zealand is saying she's taught software carpentry lessons via Skype in her organization which is spread across 12 sites in New Zealand so that's pretty cool Wow we need to talk to you Carmel I'm going to reach out to yeah that would be great to learn from your experience then it's possible it would be great to hear about how that experience went because a lot of it is being in the room yeah to share the experiences so I'm going to be reaching out to you okay yeah Ken is asking if the library carpentry lessons are on GitHub they are yeah and anyone can contribute to them you don't have to be an instructor really you can find anything that you have suggested for and either create an issue or submit a pull request to make a change on the repository so you need to know a bit about GitHub yeah we can again we can help you with that if you need to help you know reach out in fact we have this wonderful place this Gitter channel it's like a chat room it's a Gitter lobby for library carpentry and it's on our contact desk page and you can ask those questions so we've gotten questions about hey I'm trying to organize a workshop and I don't understand how to set up the template so we have this template that we can use for every workshop that serves streamlines everything and we've gotten questions on there like I don't know what's happening I thought I did everything and you know we have questions about in general about web scraping I'm trying to learn what resources should I learn and then you can ask questions like how do I submit an issue, how do I submit and there'll always be someone on there to help you right and the address for the Gitter channel is that on the library carpentry yeah it's on our contact our connect link on librarycarpentry.org okay great can you please give the URL for the various carpentry lessons that we can walk through ourselves so are they on the github site probably the best way to view them is the librarycarpentry.org and then forward slash lessons so that's how you get to our lessons and then you'll see a listing of all of them and you can navigate to particular parts of that lesson so you know the one that is a web page a website of the lesson then the repository that runs underneath it you can see you can see the maintainers the names of people that are managing these repositories you can have links to the guide the instructor guide that's used so go to librarycarpentry.org and forward slash lessons and that's where you can get a nice overview and I encourage you to look at the experimental the conceptual lesson at the moment I might have missed some I believe there's also digital humanities one that's being thought of so that's an interesting area to see what people are working on and those are sort of almost some of them are almost the point where they've released this alphas on our so you can see a little bit more of what's happening with the lesson but right now they're in that etherpad the experimental lessons the etherpad of ideas that people are working on so you'll be able to see how people contribute to developing librarycarpentry lessons which is pretty good yeah and the wiki data actually has an outline already so thankfully they link to it good yep just having a look at the other questions I think we've oh can you go into a bit more sorry from Ken again can you go into hi Ken can you go into a bit more detail about those levels of membership mentioned at the end of the presentation and is there a free tier or one price to suit individuals so people are asking do individuals join the carpentries do organizations join and why would they do that what's the pricing model well I think the closest I've heard to that question is thinking about memberships for two or three people sometimes to keep the cost manageable and so we do respond to those and if you go to the memberships page for carpentries there's contact information where you can reach out and say like I'd like to explore this and we're generally receptive to that and trying to understand your scenario but we're also kind of rethinking our models these were sort of developed a while ago and one of the new models that sort of threw us sort of a new way a new approach was the nest click model that I mentioned earlier which was a consortium and in libraries we have many consortiums so that's another way to think about is going to your consortium and thinking like how could we do this together as a community and a consortium and then there's the application process you wanted to do it individually you can apply to become an instructor there's trying to remember exactly I believe it's the teach option under carpentries.org that has an option where you can sort of apply to become an instructor and that's where you can do it individually and that's free but there's a queue this is really popular so it's a queue it might take you a while and that's what the benefits of membership give you is that you're able to jump ahead of that queue and take the training earlier right away as a cohort too but the application process we have a criteria for that and one of the ways we sort of look at applications is to build us or more diverse and inclusive community as well so that's one of the things we look for too helping to build the diversity in our community but it may take some time I know lately we've been doing a better job of getting through the applications faster and getting to people and so just be patient if you want to go that route or convince your manager convince your consortium fantastic thank you that brings us to the end of the questions thank you everyone for tuning in today have you got any last words Chris no I just want to say thanks for tuning in we had a really great turnout it's great to see that there's a lot of interest and again just reach out to me if you really want to get involved and you're passionate about this stuff we'll make it happen I know we're also thinking about this on my trip of how we can help people on this tour it's all about helping the manager fantastic thanks very much for coming