 If you've watched the movie Invictus, or even if you haven't watched the movie yet, you probably have heard of this man by the name of Francois Pinard, who together with under the leadership of Mr. Nelson Mandela, helped guide South Africa to becoming the rainbow nation that it is today using the game called Rugby. And we are very fortunate and very pleased actually to share with you some thoughts from Mr. Francois Pinard. Welcome Francois. I'll start with my first question Francois. Thank you for coming and agreeing to spend some time with us today. Could you describe the relationship you had with Mr. Nelson Mandela? Well, first of all, thank you for inviting me. It's great to be in Malaysia. Welcome. And you start with the easy questions first, I see. Of course. It's a very personal relationship. You know, there's the public relationship that people saw, a statesman and a sportsman, and how we were so blessed to share the same platform together, to stand on a podium when our country came together for the first time in its history. That's right. Very powerful. And that's the public side of it. But the personal one for me is more endearing, the relationship after the Rugby World Cup that I had with Mr. Mandela, when there was nothing to gain politically from being in a friendship with me. Incredible stories. Mr. Mandela was known to have said that it was you who was responsible for making South Africans unite during the World Cup season. Could you comment on that a little bit? Well, it was him. Yes. I was on the platform with Mr. Mandela when he handed me the trophy and what I couldn't believe was his words. So I stood up to walk onto the stage and get the trophy from him and he stuck out his hands and he said to me, Francois, thank you for what you've done for South Africa. And I was so overwhelmed by it. I didn't know what to do. But my only response was thank you, Mr. Mandela, for what you've done for South Africa. And I thought I should hug him because I wanted to hug him. But because of a state's protocol, I didn't. I wish I did. You wish you did. I wish I did, yes. I'm going to bring you back to the conversation to focus on the movie Invictus. Yes. Let's start Morgan Freeman and Matt Damon playing the role of Francois Pinard. Which scenes in the movie are true to you and which ones are more iconic in the sense that they are very meaningful to you and true at the same time? There's two. The one on Robin Island when Matt Damon walks into Robin Island. It was after we played Australia in the opening match. The whole team went to Robin Island for the first time with their partners and it was a very emotional experience. Now the World Cup has just started. It's now our first game against the odds because Australia were the favourites to win. Not New Zealand as many people thought but Australia were undefeated. And after beating them, we went to Robin Island and I was the last guy to walk into Mr. Mandela's cell. I've never been to Robin Island and when I walked into his cell the enormity of it struck me. How small the cell was and when I stuck out my hands I could touch the walls through the bars of the cell and there was nothing. I realised that Mr. Mandela was there for 17 years on that island and when he came out he had forgiveness in his heart. It was incredibly emotional. When the first time I saw the scene in Invictus in LA at the Premier I couldn't stop crying because it had such an impact on me. It had then and when I saw it again it was just incredibly emotional. So that is an indelible memory where Mr. Mandela wasn't present but he was present. His aura was there. You could sense it, you could feel it. It was just incredibly powerful and that makes you more resolute and determined. And obviously when he gave me the woke up it was probably the... his beautiful smile and his hands are lofty and he was so proud that day but not as proud as we were as a team. And in the scenes, in the movie they try and describe the scenes after the victory. They failed miserably because the scenes were far more powerful, far more genuine, far more... it was incredible scenes of pure joy, of forgiveness, of people for the first time in their history celebrating together and some tremendous stories, even 20 years later, that I'm privileged to. People tell me their stories and whenever they tell me their story it humbles me that I was just so lucky. I say it unashamedly and without trying to evoke any kind of emotion but the fact that I was incredibly lucky. I'm probably the luckiest sports person alive. Nobody has had an opportunity like I have had to meet the leader of a national team to meet the fortunate leader of the world which is Mr Mandela's image, his image of reconciliation and forgiveness and passion. Did you even have a clue of the impact of the 1995 woke up activities we would have on the rest of the world? No. Many, many years after that? No, never. I could not have imagined it. I think I would have been too scared if we realised the impact and what it could do and maybe that's why it's so special. Even during the woke up I didn't realise the enormity of the impact in South Africa. I know that something was happening. I sensed it but I was not prepared for the impact. I don't even think Mr Mandela had an idea. No, he had an idea but the impact was incredible. It was just phenomenal. It was almost a miracle. I'm sure during some of the times when you were leading the team, trying to put the team together to walk towards the same path, towards that mission that Mr Mandela set in your mind, there were times when you were most absolutely lonely because some of the teammates were not really supporting you at that point in time yet and I'm sure you felt a bit lonely, a bit shaken sometimes, I would imagine. What was your source of strength in those quietest moments, loneliness of times? No, I'm a very spiritual person and that's always been my strength. But in the team, there was a powerful force and that was the whole team. Our management was magnificent. Our manager, Mone Diplasi, also played for the team. He was an incredible gentleman and a great visionary. But I think the key was our coach, Kitch Christie, an incredible man. He had cancer for 18 years and even in 1993 he was incredibly sick and people thought that he would pass. So he departed knowledge. You can only imagine if you know that your runway is short, you know that your runway is going to stop. The knowledge that you would pass is just incredible. So the strength came from within and from my religion. Could you tell us a bit about how you grew up as a child in South Africa? How could that have probably shaped you into the person that you are now and the values that you hold so dear to yourself right now? I think it's actually ironic because the way I grew up in South Africa, an Afrikaans community, I only spoke Afrikaans, went to an Afrikaans school, never saw black people in the school. You know, when you are fairly good at sport, when you grow up, the invariable question is, is it good enough to play for the spring box because the ultimate is to play for the spring box. And the reason I grew up in Afrikaans, we love our rugby. So when I grew up, Mandela was a terrorist. He was a bad man. Mandela was, you know, if he came out of jail, we were in trouble. And that's how I grew up, listening to this from my parents and their friends and sort of believing it because as children in South Africa, the way we grew up, children are seen and not heard. You're not part of the conversation, which obviously I've changed. Ironically, when I went to university, meeting people from different religions, cultures and also persuasions, my life morphed and changed. Then you start asking questions. I never asked questions when I was a kid because you just don't. So growing up from hearing that Mr. Mandela is a terrorist and if the ANC come in power under him, that it will be the worst thing that happened to our country, to the best thing ever to happen to our country was a tremendous journey. Sometimes I don't understand that journey. It was just such a fortunate journey that I was part of. But I wish I could sit here in front of you and say that I asked those questions. And as a kid I didn't and my children will never be in that position. Wow. You were somehow inadvertently dropped from the team the year following the World Cup. Am I right? My first time ever. That's right. And though they came back to you for you after that, you've never put on a spring box just yet again until today. Could you tell us a little bit more what happened from your side? What happened, listen, there's always several sides to the story. So I'm glad you saved from my side. After the World Cup, the game turned professional. During the World Cup, we were amateurs. Before the World Cup it cost me money to play rugby. And I wouldn't change it for the world. We were adrenaline junkies to run out in front of 50, 60, 70,000 people was just the most incredible thing. And we did it for no money. They would give us a bit of pocket money but it wasn't professional. So after 95 the game turned professional and I was in the middle of negotiating professionalism. And I was seen as the shop steward. So when the game did turn professional I fell out with the administrators. Many of them fell from 1995. And I got dropped for the first time in my life. I'll never forget it against the All Blacks in Cape Town at Newland Stadium. We were leading 18 points to 6 and the next thing I woke up was in the hospital. So I was concussed. And then I learned that I was not going to be part of the new coach, the brilliant new coach. And I agreed with that because you know our coaches need to have leaders and the synergy between them and the team won't perform. There needs to be synergy and there needs to be a collective view and vision and a value system that you both support. And I was didn't connect. So that was the last time I played for the spring box sadly. I didn't leave the field on my shoes. I left it on a stretcher. And you left for England subsequently after that? It was interesting. I had a small business then and I was going to go back into business. I studied law at the University of Johannesburg. I took two law degrees. My coach and mentor sat me down and he said to me I'm crazy. He said I should go abroad. The game turned professional and I got offers to go to three clubs in the UK. Leicester, Saracens and Richmond. I heard that we didn't want to go to Leicester because if you go abroad you want to live in a city and experience a city. So we were going to go for a year maybe two years. We didn't go for money. It wasn't you know that we're going for a year. I don't think I did a good deal. We were going for the experience and that's what my coach and mentor said to me. He said you will grow. It was tough in the beginning. The club wasn't doing well and then I became player coach and for the first time in 127 years we won the first trophy which was another huge highlight in my life. So the London experience I went to Saracens because people said to me that the guy that has put the money into Saracens. He's a good guy. Now fast forward I'm still on the board of Saracens. I see Nigel a lot. It's a magnificent journey in my life and the six and a half years we spent in London is probably the best thing I've done in terms of how I've grown as a person. In terms of growing up my uppercut in South Africa going to university and then seeing a bit of the world and then going to live in the world. I grew as a person. I was very blessed. What do you say the most powerful skill that the leader must have to be successful? Vision. That's vision. If a leader doesn't have vision then there's no road. What was your vision during the World Cup? The one. I mean even before then again my side of the story that you can ask people. My fiance was working in a legal firm Maya Smith in Lowndes and one of the partners actually represented Mr Mandela where he's father in the treason trial in Rivonia and whenever she came to work two, three months before the World Cup and bearing in mind we were not given we were not favourites. There were teams there that were far more they think competent to win on their nurse. They were not competent to ride with but they were seated much better than us and Irene would come to the office and they'd say really? She says yes they're going to win. I believed it. Absolutely. I visioned myself standing on that platform holding the cup. I lived it. I dreamt it. I slept it. I trained it. It was. But it wasn't me. We all did it. The team brought into the one team, one country vision is that we're doing it for not only ourselves and for our families but we're doing it for something bigger than ourselves and for our country asides but we didn't understand the impact. We thought it would have an impact but not the enormity that it had. Without being disrespectful to your friendship with Mr Mandela could you share with us one very personal moment with him? That's really meaningful. There's several. The one that well, there's a couple that was obviously in the public domain but after we won the World Cup we were celebrating the successes and we were invited to a big celebration at the Union Buildings in Pretoria and Mr Mandela obviously was the guest of honor and I greeted him when he arrived and protocol and I then mentioned my fiancee's name once. He's incredible with names Nareen. I said to him, Mr Mandela do you mind if I introduce my fiancee Nareen to you through the course of the evening and he said ah Francois no problem and I took him to the main table. We were not seated at the main table because I wanted to be with my friends you know and we were celebrating life you can imagine we've won the World Cup our dreams have come true and life is good life is really rugby players are not known for we can celebrate I don't have hair left now but we can let our hair down I completely forgot about the fact that I wanted to introduce Mr Mandela to Nareen and at the close of the evening when he was leaving because it was getting fairly late he walked straight to our table walked past me and took my fiancee's hand and he said to Nareen will you feel offended if I come to your wedding I mean she just melted like she melted when he touched her head but when he said that and he did he came we didn't make a big thing about it he came with his daughter Zinzi most incredible photographs I mean there's many stories that I've been so fortunate having lunches with Mr Mandela and Grassa and the conversations we've had was just incredibly special but I tend not to try and share those because then it loses a bit of its appeal but this was a very special besides Mr Mandela you probably are the second most popular or most famous South African in the world if I am and there are many famous South Africans great people, business people and sports people and social workers there's some wonderful people if I am actresses but if I am it's because of my team and because of Mr Mandela and because of our coach because of my management behind us I was but the the lucky one when do you get your source of energy both physical and emotional I don't know I think it's my moral compass and my faith it has to do with that but I love people too I like the goodness in people and people have energy people have got I sometimes see that if you empower certain people in the right way they just they take off and that is energizing besides Mr Mandela who do you look up to who's your icon Mr Christy has also passed away I think if Isaac Newton taught me anything is you want to see further you've got to stand on the shoulders of giants and my two giants are my two boys Jean and Stefan Pinard they are my source of inspiration they are 16 and 15 now anyone of them playing rugby? both sadly but they also play the violin and they row and metromail and renaissance are bringing but it's on their shoulders that I see further because I understand what they have to go through in life they know I'm going into university soon then they will go into the workplace and this world is a different world it keeps on changing so they're my source of inspiration my boys Francois Pinard thank you for talking to us today thank you so much