 Hello, everybody. My name is Amar Asher. I'm the assistant director of research at the Berkman Klein Center and part of the secretariat of the global network of Internet and Society centers today I'm so pleased to be in conversation With my friend and longtime colleague Juan Carlos de Martin who is the co-founder of the nexus Center for Internet and Society At the Politecnico di Torino. He's also the vice rector of the University and today he'll be talking with us Not only about the work of the nexus center, but also about a really amazing set of conversations events and a community building Festival that he's been organizing called the Biennial Technologica at the Politecnico di Torino So we'll talk a little bit about both the nexus center and the biennial today and before we get started Juan Carlos Would you just like to briefly introduce yourself? Sure. Thank you Amar. It's a pleasure to have this conversation with you I'm a computer engineering professor at the Politecnico of Turin and therefore I have a technical background and I still occasionally teach technical matters, but for the past now almost 20 years I've been interacting with law professors, economists, philosophers, etc Trying to understand digital issues or trying to understand the technology that I contributed to develop in a broader sense so trying to understand the impact on society of these technologies and also to understand how to shape them for the benefit of society But that's I think it would be in a nutshell how I just would describe myself Excellent. Thank you Juan Carlos So to get us started I would love to hear a little bit more about the nexus center and it's It's history how it came about and what it focuses on And I know it's one that has been in the network of centers as a founding member Member since the network was launched about eight or nine years ago And you've done so much work as you've mentioned with collaborators within the network itself But we'd love to hear a little bit more about the center and then also How that has led you to the work of the festival Sure First of all, let me say that you already mentioned that I'm at the Politecnico Politecnico is a The european world for a for a technical university like MIT and many others also in the u.s And so it's a technical university in the sense that we have mostly engineering Then we have architecture a little bit of design and not much else So it's not a universal university as some people say And therefore we have like 80 percent of the university is actually Devoting their time in teaching technology and crafting new technology And actually there is little thinking historically about A sort of reflection on what we do. We just do it There is not so much a tradition of thinking about what we actually do in a meta level kind of sense So what are we doing? What is the role of technology in society? Etc. Etc. We just we just develop the technology Like I guess in many other technical schools And so the next center Was born 14 years ago And it was born Because of a direct interaction actually with the Berkman Center for International Society at Harvard University that came to Torino in 2005 And delivered the one week Lectures and and classes And we were me and other people in touring. We were struck by this Thinking about technology with a wider perspective So not only from the point to the point of view of law But you know, I would even though at the time was, you know, law school Berkman Berkman Center was based at the law school still there was it was not just strictly the law There was a broader vision of technology And therefore we were inspired by that and together with with my co-founder and my current my co-director Was a law professor mercury coffee. We decided to to follow the example And so we we borrowed the title the internet and society We came up we came up with a new name nexa, which means the connected things in latin And and we started with our own background in a different setting to Emulate what we were so impressed by this experience with with the berkman center Here in curing and and so we started with a strong component of engineering represented by myself and other people and a strong component of law Because my co-founder was a law professor and more specifically was an intellectual property professor Even though marco has a huge culture truly Almost a universal renaissance man in his Knowledge of many different topics for philosophy to economics still is a law professor. So we started with a strong characterization as Technology and law if you wish And then over time in this, you know 14 years now Over time we and we broadened our base So we still have a pretty strong law component of fellows and other people collaborating with us But we definitely have more philosophy more economics Different kinds of technology and so now it's even though we're still not covering all the discipline Which is simply impossible. We have slowly increased our scope in a sense And and just recently just one year ago actually the nexus center It was a contributing factor in establishing A new broader center between the polytechnic and the university of turing called shane sanova the new science Which is so co-founded by the nexus center and by philosophy center at the university of turing and it was just started when covet broke out So so essentially we're still in the infancy the still is a good example about we slowly Involved more and more people and now we have this new larger home crossing two different universities university of turing is a Generalist university so they cover essentially all the topics almost all the topics So that's another conversation that was that we get from the nexus center and What the focus in this 14 years has been A lot on knowledge in the digital age Connected with the fact that we had the strong intellectual property components So copyright issues at the european level at the national level. We still do we still follow like right right now for instance We are worried about the reception in the italian legislation of the european directive on copyright Which is not going as well as we wished And also in other countries is not going to exceedingly well And and so we cared about software patents So the typical, you know issues of the at the boundary between digital technology and intellectual property But over time we also take on for instance freedom of expression Which incidentally is going to be the topic of the annual conference of the nexus center in december Because we feel that like many other people that freedom of expression is shrinking and shrinking and shrinking also in Very worrying ways. And so we will devote a couple of days to talk about that and I don't want to make a long list, but let me just mention something at least one technical project, which was a project that We followed for a few years, which was was new bought which was A software that was measured to i mean was developed to measure to try to get some information about that neutrality Back in days when metric neutrality was a very hotly contested topic And so there was software development essentially and but with a policy perspective So trying to give some evidence about what was going on on the net since it was mostly opaque So in a nutshell, this could be a very short and partial presentation on what of what this nexus center is all about So thank you for that amazing overview and for me it also really connects a lot of the dots On why the nexus center has been involved in that network of centers But also is an exemplar of a network of center center precisely because you started from a very Interdisciplinary and multidisciplinary place and although each of you you and your co-founder may have Specific disciplines that you were coming out of it was this mindset this thinking and this approach We're creating spaces for interdisciplinary work to happen Really has allowed you to both learn about different types of fields and engage in these different fields and share Information knowledge not only within the context of the nexus center, but now in the context of this new center Which even is new to me. So i'm so glad to have learned about it and Really to hear that the that the university of the polytechnic ody torino is really investing in not only its core Set of areas of study, but that you do need to think about broader impacts on society You have to think about not only what you're building But why you're building it as well and what the approach is to doing this and that you can draw from the multitude of disciplines across academic spaces and work across sectors as you try to inform policy from the evidence that you're That you're building through research or through building technology. So I really I really Love that as a narrative and also the fact that the polytechnic ody torino Is an engineering school. It's a technical school and these technical facilities are very much ones that I think Are not as well represented in in sort of humanities and legal spaces and the same is true for the vice versa The opposite. So thank you. Thank you for that overview. I'd love to hear a little bit more about What you're doing now. So what is your current work like? What are the plans that you have? I know in the short term there's this this festival that's going on right right now I believe and then also Thursday. Yes very yes almost right now and then What you have over planned for the next year and what you're excited about right so what we if I can tell a few words about my Recent activities and for the past two years and half as you had mentioned I'm by structure for culture and communication here the polytechnic of curing and what I what I saw was Taking the approach that started, you know 15 years ago with that first interaction with the berkman center Of thinking about technology and society. So for many years it was digital technologies and society Now this approach this very same paradigm brought At one level up of abstraction. So technology and society. It's not only not necessarily only digital technology, but technology to cool So energy transportation you name it And so Since also because now I have a university position. Therefore, I'm not Vice rector for digital culture or digital technology, but broadly representing the university And that also aligns with my own interest because after, you know, many years now thinking about digital technologies I started asking myself But is it the thinking that we have devoted to digital technologies? Is there something That is so specific about digital or does it apply also to technology more generally? And actually, of course digital technologies have some specific nature and features But at the same time many of the thinking especially regarding policy But also societal impact is actually applies also to all technology And therefore I've been devoting time to try to foster a conversation a network of centers like conversation if you wish But not only on digital technologies, but of technology in general and Therefore last year we organized. It was the 160th anniversary of the university And therefore we made we decided to make a big part and the big party was A big cultural initiative, but also it shows concerts and everything all the fun stuff that happened before covid That took place exactly one year ago, and it was called the festival of technology and society and With a hunch that there could be interest in our students in citizens in the general in general audience About talking about technology with this kind of approach. So talking about technology not purely in a strictly technological science So not celebrating the latest devices not the usual, you know innovation kind of discourse But you know more critical and a more detached involving humanist and sociologist and geographers and philosophers and and even writers and artists And so we hoped that it was going to be attractive for our general audience And actually we had a huge And let me say it a huge success because we had 50 000 people that came And attended and and essentially all the meetings were sold out Actually it was entirely for free. But I mean it was packed And we had we we had the pleasure of seeing our own students coming Sunday morning to attend lectures Which was in not it was not a given so we we were we hoped that they would come but it was not certainly a given And so based on that success So we decided to get it with the mayor of the city and other institutions To make it a permanent A permanent initiative, sorry So to make it a biennale so every two years And but essentially every two years a major cultural initiative on technology and society with approach that I just described Which the first edition is going to take place starting on Thursday it was it would be entirely online And a sizable chunk of it it will be in English And so actually it will be accessible to also audience all over the world Which is the one of the few positive sides of moving everything online is that then the audience is the entire world Potentially and so we're going to have many meetings on digital issues And I think it is going to be interesting for both the network of centers But also for the general public also for the interns in the IGF kind of public We're going to talk about artificial intelligence We're going to talk about Tracking applications for this pandemic and many other digital topics But we are going to also talk about many many other technology related issues Including as I mentioned the arts, so we're going to listen to novelists talking about technology We're going to listen to have concerts Where somehow the technology plays a part and not just an instrumental part But somehow it's the object of the artistic performance And it's going to be 140 events and roughly 260 speakers And and we hope that we will even do it will be entirely different compared to the edition the physical very physical edition that we had Last November it would be entirely online But we still hope that he's going to have the same kind of attractive features for the general audience Wow the scale of that both in terms of The volume of people and interest but also in terms of the scope of what you're trying to do is really Truly amazing and I think also speaks to the fact that as you were saying your vice rector of culture at the university and Digitalist culture now right all these sort of questions of technology and society are very much integrated into how we think about almost every issue from a societal perspective whether it be policymaking or arts or Production of knowledge all these things very much have such important digital components and for somebody who's been in this field for For two decades you've seen that and I know that you've also Really looked at this from the perspective of universities and the role that universities play In in both creating and promoting culture and knowledge You've even written a book on universities and cyberspace and we've done a lot of work in the past on universities and cyberspace So I might wonder I wonder if you might just say one thing about that work and how it connects to the to the festival No, absolutely. Thank you for mentioning that This festival this biennale is One of the ways in which universities have an impact on society So in either if we tend to talk about the three missions of university then you can You know other people might say four or five or seven But the three missions are very simply teaching of course Doing research, of course, and it's a called third mission It's a it's a jumble of different things. So one of those things is to involve a society in a conversation so A conversation that has to be accessible also for the general audiences or not too technical not too strictly disciplinar and and also a conversation that is As much as possible try to To listen to so not only preach to an audience not only, you know Ex-cathedra to give a lecture but also try to listen to the concerns Of the people to which we are talking to and therefore something like biennale or the festival of technology last year We always always tried to keep in every meeting sometime of interaction with the audience And we're going to do the same this time. It's everything online And we thought also the technical level logistical level to make sure that every single meeting We'll have some time for the interaction and to listen to the audience I'm trying to have at least some sort a little bit of conversation So definitely it's connected to my thinking with universities and I think it's It's especially in an age, you know, we spent four years talking about post-truth or You know thinking about what what's the role of science in democracy? I think universities have a special role and special duty to try to to to give Citizens in a democracy their expert knowledge Knowing what are the limits of this expert knowledge because we all know that science that is not true to be the capital team It's it's more complex than that We're definitely we have to try even though it's difficult and even though sometimes The political landscape can become very very antagonistic and very complicated Thank you for that really wonderful and comprehensive answer Juan Carlos, um my final question for you before you sign off is what are the ways that people in the network of centers can collaborate with The nexus center or participate in the festival. So it sounds like everything is online, which is really wonderful I do hope that you'll share information with the network of centers and invite them to encourage and encourage them to attend To the extent that some of the sessions are open. But what are other ways that you see potential for collaboration? Oh, well, I mean there is so much wealth right now in the network of centers So many centers that are doing amazing stuff and so many centers actually to that We are still hoping to know better what they do how they do it. What's their focus? What's in their interest? So the potential for collaboration is huge and um, we are completely open So if anybody has an idea as I see something we are doing and they would like to just even just have a Conversation like we are doing right now. We're completely available and interested in doing that And regarding the next edition will be in 2022 um, and we We deeply hope that is going to be a more normal event compared to this year And so that could be also an opportunity to meet in person. We were hoping to do that for this edition Unfortunately, it didn't go that well But in two years time the next Biennale could be a place where also at least some people from the network of centers Could come to Torino and have a physical meeting together Excellent. Well, thank you so much for this really wonderful conversation Juan Carlos and thank you for Very excited to have you my pleasure. Thank you as always. Bye. Bye