 Aloha, and welcome to a Hanukako on the Think Tech Hawaii Broadcasting Network. I'm Joe Kent, Vice President of the Grass Street Institute of Hawaii, filling in for Dr. Keili Iakina, President of the Grass Street Institute of Hawaii, Hawaii's only free market think tank, and today we are thinking hard about agriculture. Governor Ege recently announced a goal to double food production in Hawaii by the year 2030. Can it be done? Should it be done? Is it even possible? Today we're going to talk with two local experts in a field called Aquaponics. We're here with Jay Ogden of Sustainability Design Consultants and Aquaponics Expert, and also Chris Feetz. Welcome, you too. Thank you. Pleased to be here. Thank you. So before we get into the whole, can we double agriculture, I'd like to learn a little bit more about what is aquaponics. Now, if I remember right, there's growing plants in water, there's growing animals in water, and then there's kind of combining the two. So can you explain that a little bit? Well there's plants growing in water, fish growing in water, and we combined the two. No, I said it right. You passed. Chris is really the expert here at the table with regard to aquaponics. So maybe you'd like to talk a little bit about what you've learned about aquaponics in the last few years. Sure, thanks, Jay. Aquaponics is really just a combination of two things, aquaculture, which is the raising of a fish or marine species, and then hydroponics, which is the growing of plants, usually in a water solution. Now why would you want to put them together? It's really a synergy of two different systems. In aquaculture you have a setup where the fish produce a lot of waste, and that has to be managed or dealt with, and in hydroponics you have a situation where you need the nutrients. And so by bringing those two together, you gain a lot of synergistic gain from the two. So the plants gain from the waste from the fish, and the fish gain from the waste from the plants, and sort of a little ecosystem there, is that right? The fish enjoy the clean water from the plants, yes. And you produce these aquaponics systems in your business, is that right? Yeah, we don't manufacture. We did manufacture for several years local systems. We've gone to a manufactured product now from two different companies on the mainland, mostly because the sustainability of our locally manufactured products was a very short time. We've used a lot of wood products, building them, and they just deteriorated over time. So our clients are coming back and saying, hey, you know, we'd like to continue growing food this way, but our system is falling apart. And so we're now providing a system that could last 10 or 20 years. And your customers are coming in and they want to grow gardens and produce food in a different way. Why would somebody want to do that versus growing in the ground, do you think? Well, our clients who are primarily backyard gardeners have gardens in their backyard already, at the most part. And it's not that they're going to not do that, they continue to do that, because some plants really do better in the ground. But the ease and the low maintenance that aquaponics offers is a real incentive for a lot of people because a lot of people have limited time to garden. They've got kids, they've got jobs, they've got mortgages to pay. Oh, so it's a low maintenance. So it's a low maintenance thing. Our company brings the system in, we set it up, ready to plant. And we actually allow our employees, if a client wishes, to come in and do the planting, do the harvesting, and put the food on their back porch. Wow. Okay, so. We're all included in our arrangement with our clients, so the client doesn't really have to get too involved if they don't want to. And some do want to get more involved. Do you have to weed, I mean, is it the same as a traditional garden, we have to weed it and kill the bugs and all this, or do you have those kinds of problems? You do have some weeds, but not anywhere near as much weeds as you do in the garden. Oh really? Yeah. Why is that? It's probably a place to get started, okay. The only way weeds can get into the garden in aquaponics is if a bird flies over and poops a seed. Oh, okay. Or the wind blows the seed. Or the wind blows the seed in, or something like that. But there's also more flexibility in these aquaponics systems. You can move them if you need to, easy, like it's hard to move a garden, but you can move one of these systems, is that right? Many of our clients do not own the home they're in. So a typical lease turns over in two or three years. People like the ability to just pick it up, put it on the moving truck and take it to their next place. Right. You could take your garden with you. And you can also do it indoors if you want to. Some clients are doing that. Okay. They don't have space around the house, they have a garage and they're not parking their car in it. Now Chris, what does that entail if I wanted to grow indoors, you know, a hydroponic system, what would that entail? But with an aquaponics system, you have a lot of advantages inside, especially with an individual or a smaller system. You can put it on a windowsill if you have a sunny side, a south-facing window. If you do not, if you're in like a high-rise or whatnot, you can have a small system and then just use fluorescent lights. Or even now you can use LED lights. Okay. So just basically about if you can get enough light. Yes. It's all light dependent. The fish require shade and the plants require that. You don't have to feed the fish. You do have to feed the fish. Oh, okay. So just like an aquarium with a smaller system or a backyard system, you are feeding the fish every day and there is some maintenance, it's not zero maintenance. Right. Zero maintenance is going to the store and buying your produce, but if you are in it for the high quality produce or having direct access when you want it, then that's when you go garden your backyard. Now aquaponics is big in Hawaii in a way. I read a study recently that showed that aquaponics has now surpassed cattle for being productive in Hawaii. And what examples locally here do we see in aquaponics? Chris has actually worked at a couple of the larger commercial aquaponics farms here, one on the Wynye Coast. And it's a two acre farm right now. And that's about 50, 100 foot long aquaponics tables, 50 of them. Wow. And it produces a lot of food for our major food chains. What kinds of things are they growing? They're growing like minuetes, green onions and some other, depending on the season, bok choy, wung choy, wung choy, and different herbs. Okay. So if we talk about this food goal that David Ike put forth of doubling our food supply, I think that the stat is like 10% of our food in Hawaii that we consume is grown locally. If we wanted to double that, do you think aquaponics or aquaculture has a chance to help with that? I think it's a substantial way. Chris probably knows better than I, but the commercial people who are growing aquaponically, the only challenge they have is being able to afford the infrastructure to put the system in place. And the cost to manufacture these is coming down as it is just like cell phones and everything. So I think in the next 10 years, it's very, very possible to double the commercial production of food here. Okay. And your opinion of that? I would agree it would play a part. I think all types of agriculture have a role in this. Some other folks like Urban Farm Hawaii with Hunter Haviland has very good plans on using public land and private backyards where we can get zoning to utilize those areas. And then the areas where they're not suitable for in-ground agriculture, I think that's the perfect place to use something like aquaponics. This really strikes me because agriculture in Hawaii, a lot of people say, well, we just need more land. But I wonder if in the future growing food could become so efficient that you could actually use less land and grow more food. Now does aquaponics actually present a pathway towards that? It does, Joe, because places like Dubai and I'm trying to think of some of the other places around that are doing this, but high-rise buildings are now being built as farms. Dubai has a 20-story building. It's a farm. And every level of this building is growing something different. And the buildings are controlled environment, so the heat, the coolness of the is maintained. Moisture levels are maintained. Light is maintained by either the sun and reflective mirrors or artificial lighting like we have here in the studio. So you can grow 24-7. Wow, interesting. And the plants respond very well to that. That's interesting because, see, the normal narrative that you would hear is that in order for us to have more farming, we need to make it harder for people to build buildings, right? But that's kind of the opposite of what you're saying. Exactly the opposite. And I think there's a point at which maybe 20 years from now we really won't need to use our farmland to grow the food that we need to support the people here. That's interesting. And that means we have an opportunity, I think, to use farmland into forests, parkland, orchards, things that can't grow aquaponically. If you had the, let's say now we're, I don't know if we're talking about fantasy land yet, but this is happening in the world. It's happening in the world now. If you had a building that was doing some sort of production of aquaponic agriculture, would you need, you know, more labor to run this building? Or would it all be run by the push of a button? Why don't you talk about it for a second? Well, there are some examples of robotic harvesting in Japan. It has some examples where the entire factory is automated. They have automated planting, automated harvesting, and then they have individuals going around to do quality checks. In that, on that island, in that country, it's, the cost is worth it. Where we have access to cheap imports still, and we'll continue, it may not make as much sense to do that sort of thing, the total automation. So I believe there will always be a labor component, at least for the foreseeable future on Hawaii. Right. But that's not to say that there's not opportunities for automation in the existing systems. Right. What are the biggest barriers right now to more people doing aquaculture in Hawaii, would you say? Well, on a commercial basis, it's probably land. The only barrier for the backyard gardener is affordability of the systems. And what I'm finding is that people generally start a homemade system, have a little experience with it, find out that it's not as easy as they think they thought it was maybe, maybe they have a little failure involved in that, and they start looking for expertise. Sure. So when they start looking for expertise, then they find people like Chris and myself who have the ability to show them how to be successful with the garden they already have. And then when they're ready to upgrade to a bigger, more productive system, we're there to help them. Right, well, when the going gets tough, the tough get going, I guess. You have to teach them that lesson. And we're gonna try to teach the state that lesson when it comes to aquaponics. We're here with Jay Ogden and Chris Feetz, and we're talking about the future of agriculture. Don't go away. For a very healthy summer, watch Viva Hawaii. We're giving you the best tips and with our best health coach here. So Viva, health coach. Viva la comida saludable. Hi, my name is Justine Espiritu. This is my co-host, Matthew Johnson. Every Thursday at 4 p.m., we host the Hawaii Food and Farmers series. This is the place you can come to for insight on the perspective and history and passions of Hawaii's farmers and all folks involved in Hawaii's local food system. What kind of folks do we have on? So we have everyone from local farmers. We have foodies, chefs. We also have journalists, researchers, anyone who's actually working to help make Hawaii's local food system that much better. So join us every Thursday and tweet in the us and ask us some questions and leave your comments as well. Bye. Welcome back to the show. This is A Hanukkah Co. I'm Joe Kent, and today we're talking about agriculture and specifically aquaponics. But before I do, I want to say a big thank you to Jay and his crew at the Think Tech Hawaii Broadcasting Network. It's so great to have this help to help get big ideas out in the public. And again, today we're talking about big ideas with Jay Ogden and Chris Feetz of Sustainability Design Consultants, their aquaponics experts. So thanks again for coming on the show. And we left off talking about some of the barriers and hurdles to getting this program adopted. So if aquaponics is so good, if it's such a great thing to do, why aren't more people doing it? Well, I think for the backyard gardener, it's cost. People who are doing some gardening now in their own home, the only cost is the seeds, their labor to get in the ground and turn it up and do that. When they look at an aquaponics system, especially our hyposystems, which are a little bit larger, the idea of putting $2,000 or $3,000 into a system is foreign. It's like going out and buying a car. And most people who haven't bought a new car in a few years are sticker-shocked, right? So when they come into our place and they see, oh, well, our small system is $3,500, it's kind of a barrier. So what we've done is we've gone beyond that. We've said, okay, if that's a barrier, then we'll take that barrier away by allowing you to lease our system. And so for a couple hundred dollars per month, they can get into a system and a service to help them get started. And so we think that's a way of lowering the barrier to entry. Lowering the barrier to entry. And that allows us to then, if they move or they just don't want to do it anymore, we go pick up the system and put it in somebody else's yard. Right. The objectives that our company has really... Yeah, why don't you tell me about it? I know you were talking about some of the objectives. I did a demographic study from our last census and I found out there are 300,000 homes on Oahu. Now some of those are condominiums, so a lot of them are. But the single-family homes and the condominiums here that can accommodate aquaponics systems, there's probably about 100,000 home sites on Oahu. Taking 10% of that as people who are already gardening in their backyards, that's our market. So we're talking about 10,000 people who could possibly buy a backyard aquaponics system. Sure. Last year we did about 20 systems, about one a month, one and a half a month last year. It will take us a long time to do 10,000 systems. Right. So there's a huge marketplace out there for those. So you don't want just more business for yourself, but you want, actually you want more competition. I want more competition. I want to help the competition get started. And I'm a supplier to the competitors of my business. So... That's fine. Why would a businessman want more competition? The market is so huge. And I don't think we have a whole lot of time left before we're gonna need to have... Yeah, but I mean, what I'm talking about is, I was talking to Chris before, and you're saying that you're on the boards. You're not really part of the company, but you're helping out. And is this passionate? Are you guys passionate about this in some way? Or... Yes, I'm passionate. And the reason is because about 15 years ago, a doctor told me that if I don't change my habits, I'm gonna be on his operating table. And... It wasn't a friendly conversation. And so I said, okay, Doc, what do I need to do? He said, well, you need to clean up your food act. And so I changed my diet. I got more exercise. I lost about 40 pounds. And now I realize that if I stay on a good diet of well-grown food organically, hopefully, then my body will respond well to that. I'm 70 years old today. I want to live another 50 or 60 years, if I can. In order to do that, you laugh at me. But if I can, I know I'm gonna have to have a good diet. But it's not just about you. It's about society too, isn't it? Oh yes, I mean, but you know, my average client age was 60 years old the last three or four years. So people of my age are thinking about, how do I endure? How do I keep my life going? What do I need to do to be more healthy and more active? And so aquaponics is a way for the backyard gardener to include a better diet and little exercise and a way to be sustainable himself. And Chris, why did you get involved with this movement, would you say? Would you kind of know if you call it a movement, but? Well, it is a movement. And it's really, it's about controlling what you eat and your lifestyle. And this started for me when I was in the military and retired now. And when I got to Hawaii, I thought I was in paradise because look, you can grow year-round here. And I originally grew up in Wisconsin, where it was seasonal. And to come here, and then I was living on base at the time, we couldn't have gardens. Anything that we did had to be able to be moved. And so when I started learning a little bit more about aquaponics and that it's portable, everything started to click and make sense. And it was just a matter of finding a system that would move with me as I moved on. Okay. Now, you were talking before this, the word system sometimes scares people because they don't want a system, they just want a simple way to grow food. Is aquaponics, I mean, do you folks make it simple? I mean, let's say I wanted to start making an aquaponics farm. What would that entail? Well, the equipment necessary to build it, probably a small system that would fit on the tabletop here, might cost you $200 or $300. You need some grow beds, you need some rock. Really, that's it? You need a water tank. So all of that together for a small system like that might run you $200 or $300. So I could even do it on a real small scale, like a micro scale in a way. I've provided systems to the Department of Education. I've got about five or six schools on Oahu that have our systems in them. And in some of the elementary schools, we put a system on a table that's half the size of this table. Wow. So, you know, and the kids get an experience of what it's like to grow food and... And does it have fish in it too? Or is it like, really? Now for the fish, can you eat the fish too or is that just part of the system? Oh really? Oh, the tilapia are a really good eating fish. Wow, okay. So let's talk a bit about some of the vision that you have for your organization and for this movement. What would you, what would be an ideal sort of vision for Hawaii when it comes to aquaponics? Well, I don't know if the commercial agriculture is ready for this, but my vision of it is that a third of the food that this population eats right now could be produced in the backyard of our people's homes. A third. That means a third less of your budget goes into the stores and into the high cost, low nutrient food that's served from all of our stores. Right. You know, the shipping people are not gonna be happy about that idea and the food stores may not be happy about it. But as I see it, there's a transition going on. And over the next 10 or 15 years, I think as many as a third of the people living in a home or a condo that can accommodate an aquaponics system. And by the way, we've been working with a lot of the AOAO groups here in the condominium associations. And oftentimes there's initially a negative response from the condo association because they don't understand what an aquaponics system involves. We meet with them, we explain it, we talk about the amount of weight because if it's on the second level of a condo, there's a concern about, well, is the floor capable of handling the extra weight of the water and the rocks and all that? Once we discuss all these issues, they're generally favorable to doing this. Interesting. And the costs are generally, I spoke, well, does it use lots and lots of water? I mean, it's called aquaponics. Actually the water use is very minimal. In fact, it takes what 70 or 80% less water in an aquaponics system than it does in an in-ground garden. Oh really? Why is that? Because the water is circulated. The only loss is due to evaporation. Oh, okay. So you only lose 5% or so per day to evaporation. Oh, okay. So it's just like a fishbowl, you fill it up sometimes. So yeah. Okay, interesting. And I guess some electricity to run the pump, too, then. Yes. Why don't you talk about that? Because that's a fear that a lot of people have. How many watts does it take to run a pump? Depending on the size of the system, there are different ways to design a system where you could use very little energy, where you could run it off a very small solar panel during the day and then you wouldn't need the power at night. There are other ways, depending on how big you get, that you could use a lot more. Just a lot of it depends on the design and then really the demands of the system. The more fish, the more aeration you would need, the more plants, the more aeration you would need. Oh, okay. Out of the 50 systems that we've built today, none of them have photovoltaic capability. Photovoltaic, you're talking about solar panels. Solar panel. To run the pump. But in the larger systems that we're offering now, the photovoltaic is going to become more important because the pump needs to work 24-7. And the pump generally is bigger. And so there's also a water pump and an air pump that goes into the larger systems to aerate the water because the fish consume the oxygen out of the water. You have to bubble the water to get more oxygen in the water. So both of those pumps are working 24-7. What would you say to someone who is thinking about it, has heard of it, is wondering about it, but just doesn't want to make the next splash, I guess you could say. Yeah. Well, I think that a lot of people are doing it yourself kind of people and they call me and I give them advice on how to get started. I want people to call me and talk about what they want because even though our system, they may not be ready for our system yet, I want to guide them towards getting ready for a larger capability. And so with a couple of $200 or $300, you can start with a small system. I can show them how to put it together. They can go to the stores and pick up the parts, do it at home. And then when they come back the next time, they've got some experience to offer. And when we talk about bigger systems, how much, I mean, people sometimes in Hawaii are concerned with what if the ships don't come or like how much food, local food are we consuming? How big of an area or how big of a aquaponics system would you need to feed a person, do you think? You want to answer that? Oh, go ahead. Well, here's my experience. I have two in my family and we live on a eight and a half acre farm. So we, but we don't grow anything in the ground. Everything has grown in our aquaponics system. And our system is about 20 square feet. So that's about a, that's like a 10 by 20 space. Okay. And there's plenty of food for us to share with our extended family. Really? Yes. Okay. So it grows a lot of food. And it's really grown intensively. In other words, a grow bed that might be the same size as this table can grows 10 or 20 plants at a time. And they don't all mature at the same time. So you're constantly picking leaves off of this and using that and so forth. And so that will continue to produce food for three to four months before it has to be replanted. Interesting. So we show people how to do this intensive gardening in a small space. Well, thanks so much for coming here and showing us how to do it. I've learned a lot today. And hopefully we can get more people on board. So I guess a lot of the barrier is just knowledge. And I guess that's what Think Tech Hawaii is about. And that's what Ehana Kako, what we're about at the Grassery Institute is sharing the best knowledge to help Hawaii's government and Hawaii's society. So thanks so much for joining me. I was here with Jay Ogden and Chris Feetz of Sustainability Design Consultants. And my name is Joe Kent and I'm vice president at Grassery Institute of Hawaii. Aloha.