 Welcome everyone. Thank you for joining us today for the Races Zero's November Dialogues Transport Day. My name is Kevin Soupley, and I'm the project lead for the World Economic Forum's Clean Skies for Tomorrow initiative, our global coalition working to achieve net zero aviation by mid-century. I work on the forum's Future of Mobility team, and in partnership with our Races Zero partners, we are your hosts for this session. Over the next hour, we'll be discussing building a path for net zero aviation together with leaders from across the aviation value chain who are driving real, tangible progress in transforming this hard to obey sector. 2020 has been a bit of an unusual year. The impacts of the COVID-19 pandemic have been devastating and have brought us to a strange new normal in our way of life. Hopefully, we'll soon be able to resume activities that we all miss, dining out, travel, meeting in person, though it may be some time yet. Aviation has been particularly hard hit by this crisis. This is, in fact, the worst economic crisis in aviation's modern history. Passenger volumes are down over 60 percent. Industry revenues have dropped over 400 billion US dollars just this year alone. We don't yet know when the crisis will end. But indeed, aviation brings tremendous societal and economic value, delivering international diplomacy, travel for business and leisure, and closing the distance between loved ones. We're working on a return to the skies as soon as possible, but aviation is also still a polluting industry. So while we struggle to find solutions for the pandemic and climate change remains a threat and the time for action is quickly passing, so that's why, both at the forum and across the industry, we're working to adjust these global challenges with global solutions. Amidst all of this, there's room for optimism. Even as they face significant job losses and operate on skeleton staff, we've seen a doubling down of commitments across the aviation value chain to help transform the industry to one that is more sustainable. Just over the past few months alone, we've seen tremendous progress with voluntary declarations from the 13 airlines and the One World Alliance to be net zero by 2050 and creative partnerships with aviation consumers like Microsoft to accelerate the industry's energy transition. So that brings me to the topic at hand today. Is it possible to supply sustainably now? If not now, when? What are the technologies and collaborations happening now to get us to where we need to be? So let's get started. Thank you for joining us. First up, we'll hear from Charles Perry, aviation lead on the COP26 climate champions team to provide opening remarks about the November dialogues COP26 and Aviation Race to Zero. Charles, over to you. Thank you very much, Kevin. Hello to each and every one of you. It's great to be here today on this important occasion. Welcome to the race to zero. Yes, I'm Charles Perry. I'm the aviation lead on the COP26 climate champions team. And I'm also founder of a business called sustainable future for all. I want to tell you I recently got inspired and got to know an amazing woman. Her name is Dr. Catherine Katie Coleman. She's an astronaut. She lived at the space station. She flew the shuttle. And she really inspired me in these difficult turbulent times in the last few months. Do you all know what the word astronaut means? Sailing the stars, navigating in space. Well, now we have to navigate to cleaner, clearer skies. We are on a voyage, a journey to a more sustainable future. And we need each of you to join us to become not astronauts, but zero laws. Zero laws leave no footprint. We have to smash this or as Taylor Swift or will I am might say we have to kill it. Why? What is it? Pollution. If we don't kill it, it will kill us. And I'm not just talking about carbon dioxide pollution. I'm talking about all greenhouse gas pollution. So today, please take your organizational hats off, whether you're on the panel, whether you're in the audience, just be yourselves as individuals. And think of whether you can commit to becoming a zero naught personally. I believe we can get to net zero by 2050 for a hard to obey sector like aviation. I know we must get to net zero by 2050 or earlier. And I think we will get to net zero by 2050, but only if we collaborate radically. No longer divisions and turf wars, but united we will succeed divided we will fail. We've just seen an example of leadership to unite versus divisions in a big country. This today is the rest of zero. Let's please folks ride these winds together and thank you for making the time to be with us. Thank you, Charles. Next, I'm pleased to introduce Judson Altoff, Executive Vice President for Microsoft's Worldwide Commercial Business. He's joining us today to remark on Microsoft's industry leadership in investing in sustainable aviation fuels as a method of reducing the company's environmental footprint from travel. He's joining us over a recorded video given the time difference with Seattle. So let's hear from him now. I'm Judson Altoff, the Executive Vice President of Microsoft's Worldwide Commercial Business. And in my personal time, I'm an aviation enthusiast. In fact, I'm a private pilot with an instrument rating. And so this is a topic, frankly, that is both near and dear to me professionally, as well as personally. Look, the scientific consensus is clear. The world confronts an urgent carbon problem. Humanity has released more than 2 trillion metric tons of greenhouse gases into the Earth's atmosphere since the start of the first industrial revolution. Over three quarters of this is carbon dioxide, and it is simply more carbon than nature can reabsorb. Additionally, humanity pumps more than 50 billion metric tons of greenhouse gases into the air every single year. If we don't curb our emissions, temperatures will continue to climb, and science tells us that the results will be catastrophic. Earlier this year, Microsoft announced several sustainability commitments. We became net zero and net negative in our carbon footprint in terms of our commitments for the year 2030. And by 2050, we committed to erase the entirety of our carbon footprint since the inception and founding of the company itself. As a part of Microsoft's carbon negative commitment, we have a goal of reducing our supply and chain emissions by over half by the year 2030. This includes our employee air travel, which currently accounts for roughly 400,000 tons of carbon each year. Business travel has been one of the areas that is effectively the long pole in the tent, if you will, in terms of trying to solve for sustainability. It's easy to do certain things in the equation of pursuing being net zero and net negative carbon, but travel and certainly air travel is one of the more difficult ones. So this year, we decided that we would make an additional commitment relative to sustainability. And whilst right now in the time of COVID, not many folks are traveling, we do expect business travel to return to significant and substantial levels. To address the challenge, we formed partnerships with airlines like KLM and Alaska to invest in sustainable aviation fuel for our business flights. This past October, Microsoft partnered with KLM to purchase an amount of sustainable aviation fuel equivalent to all flights taken by Microsoft employees between the United States and the Netherlands on KLM. And just this past month, we built on this momentum by announcing a partnership with Alaska Airlines to acquire sustainable aviation fuel and the equivalent for the total amount of fuel we would otherwise burn on Alaska Airlines for our busiest routes, in fact, our most common routes for business travel between Seattle and San Francisco, between Seattle and San Jose, and also Seattle and Los Angeles. We're excited about this because whilst COVID has created a bit of a relief on business travel, we expect to continue to travel in the future to engage with our customers and support them around the world. And we wanted to return to flight responsibly. Right now, sustainable aviation fuel is more expensive. And because it's more expensive, it's harder for energy companies to justify the production. And so you end up with a bit of a chicken and egg conundrum between supply and demand. In order to break this cycle and create a more effective flywheel for the ecosystem, companies like Microsoft need to step forward and make these kinds of commitments so that energy companies can see the demand signal and produce more sustainable aviation fuel. As production levels increase, so will flow the laws of supply and demand, and the costs will come down, making it easier for airlines like KLM and Alaska to purchase more sustainable aviation fuel. At the end of the day, it's more than just Microsoft KLM and Alaska stepping forward. It's about enabling a flywheel so that the entire ecosystem can step forward and make similar commitments, because effectively we're all in this together. This is something I'm genuinely excited about. I remember sitting in the Cleaner Skies Forum in Davos this past January, where many business leaders came together to discuss this challenge. And we highlighted how the private sector, how the airline industry, how energy companies all needed to come together with governments around the world to create this flywheel. So I'm very proud that Microsoft's been able to step forward and make this commitment. And I'm excited to see more and more companies join around the world. But this year has been certainly one of the most challenging ones for all of us to endure. It's been a very difficult business climate. Many people have struggled with healthcare concerns around the world. And so climate and climate issues have taken a bit of a backseat for many of good reasons. But the challenge of creating a sustainable future for our planet will be one that persists. And it will be one that we all need to come together to solve. So I'm excited about this step forward. And I'm excited to see what all of you may do to join in this important step for sustainability. Wonderful. Thank you to Judson for those comments. So without further ado, I'd like to hand things over to Wendy Woods, joining us as moderator for our excellent panel discussion. Wendy's managing director and her senior partner at BCG, where she serves as vice chair of their social impact practice. She's an influential voice on corporate strategy and is a thought leader on sustainability and rethinking business's role in society. So an excellent person to walk us and guide us through this discussion. Wendy, the floor is yours. Thank you, Kevin. And thank you, Charles, for setting us up so clearly in terms of the challenge before us today. I'm really pleased to be able to coordinate this panel today. I will tell you it's a topic I'm passionate about, not just because of my role leading climate for BCG with our clients, but because this panel and all of the individuals on it today are going to be the path for BCG to meet our net zero commitments. We've made some aggressive commitments about being net zero by 2030 by reducing our travel emissions and by neutralizing the remaining and ultimately going that negative beyond 2030. But there is absolutely no way we're going to meet those commitments without everybody on this panel. For BCG, being a global firm, three-fourths of our emissions come from airline travel. So I find this discussion today not a nice to have, but something we have to do and something that is incredibly timely and urgent. COVID has been a challenge in the world. It's taught us how we can do some things differently. But as Kevin set us up, we know that we will need to fly for our economy and frankly for our humanity. So I would love to pick up this conversation and let's get concrete and specific about how together collaborating, we can build a path to net zero aviation. Given we've got a great panel that really covers sectors in the value chain, I'd love to start on the technology end in terms of the infrastructure and the the planes. Let's begin. We've got Dave Smith, who's director of technology with Rolls-Royce. He's responsible for sustainability across all of their product lines. Now, some of me say, well, what does Rolls-Royce have to do with airlines? Well, they build half of the engines that go into all of our long haul planes. So very important part of the technology to getting there. Another person who's going to join us on the panel from the technology side is Jeff Engler. Jeff is the CEO of Ride Electric. And Ride Electric has committed to developing an electric plane, a 737, one of the ones we would all want to fly in commercially, right? An electric plane by 2030, pushing the timeline for that. We've got the infrastructure folk here. Dick Benchork is the CEO of Shipple Airlines, or sorry, Shipple Airport. He's been a leader in the ecosystem in the Netherlands and in the EU, pushing policy around blended mandates for inter-EU travel and really working to create that ecosystem that's going to help us all get to where we need to be. We have Jennifer Folgrom. You heard Justin talk about sustainable airline fuel or staff. Jennifer is the person who's helping us make that. As CEO of Lanzatec, they're working on waste to power, waste to fuel, sustainable airlines fuel. And we have Jonathan Council. He's the group head of sustainability for international airlines group. Jonathan is the force behind the One World Alliance commitment to net zero that we've all recently seen. So let's now move into the discussion of this esteemed group. Dave, I'd love to hear from you. I know over time airplanes have been getting more and more sustainable. I think each new generation gives us 20 to 25 percent efficiency. But are we hitting a wall there? Are we going to be able to continue to drive more and more efficiency with new generations of airlines? Or what is the move that you who build the components that go into our planes going to be able to contribute to net zero? We can certainly go further and we invest as an industry. I know our company invests about a billion pounds, which is probably a billion euros and a billion dollars at the moment as well in research every year to drive efficiency further. We expect by 2050 that aircraft overall will have delivered a 30 percent further efficiency improvement. So that takes the amount of fuel we need to burn right down if we change nothing else. And we need to do that because the challenge is enormous. It's possible if we all pull together. I'm very struck by Charles, the zero-naught. I'm going to become a zero-naught and we all have to work together. One of the things that struck me when we joined the panel is a lot of people know each other and they know each other because we've all been talking about this and working on this very hard for the last years because we know we have to work together. We need aviation traditional like Rolls Royce. We need to add the new. Jeff will talk about the new but we're we're inventing the new ourselves as well. We've got a big electrification of aviation business growing within the company today. We need oil and gas companies, the ones we have today and we need new ones like Jennifer is going to talk about the new fuels that we have to have to decarbonise aviation. And we need our colleagues, the airlines and the airports who actually get customers in and get people around the world and make the whole thing worthwhile. And then we need governments who are going to make the market and people like Microsoft who are making the market because this is going to be an immense undertaking for humanity. But we can see how to do it if we all come together. But but we do all need to come together. Thank you very much Dave. And Jeff, I'd love to turn to you now. You've committed to an electric plane and 2030 longer than we want. But coming up pretty quickly, how are you going to get there? What is the contribution of right electric? What do you think the potential is? And I'm curious because we heard in the introduction from Judson about the sustainable airline fuels. What do you think the interplay electric sustainable? How is that going to play out for us? That's a great question. Thanks for asking and thanks for having me. So the state of California announced that they're banning gas powered cars in about 15 years. And there's a reason why California didn't say all cars will use sustainable fuel. They said all cars have to be electric and it's because electric is better. It's just better for the environment. Simple as that. So we think for flights that can be electric, they should be electric. And then for flights that can't be, we think sustainable aviation fuels are the best solution. So there's a room for all of these technologies. Collaboration is the most important part of this program as other folks have said. We're focused on short-haul flights. Dave was talking about longer-haul flights. We think for the quarter of the aerospace industry that is short flights using 737 or A320 class airplanes, they should be electric and everything else should be sustainable aviation fuels. So for our group, we've got about a quarter of the industry, I think potentially less in terms of passenger miles, that is short-haul. We've got about pre-force that's long-haul. And what you're saying is the electric plane, the 737 ish that you're going to be developing would be for the short-haul component. We've got a lot of work to do with things like sustainable airline fuel for the long-haul. That's exactly right. Yep, exactly right. And so that's why we think there's a role for everybody on the panel. And it's not only the technology, it's also the airports, it's also the infrastructure. Everybody has to be working together. And we want to do our part in collaboration with everybody else. I think, Jeff, you've got a contract with EasyJet. How do you see your customer base? What do you see the uptake? Are you seeing demand? We talked about demand. Are you seeing demand? No, absolutely. There's demand not only from the airlines but also from the customers. We know that what the industry is looking for and what consumers are looking for is the lowest emissions travel possible. Nobody wants to stop flying, but they want to, or nobody wants to stop traveling, but they still want to do so in the most sustainable way. So we see it both from airlines and then we also see it from the end users as well. Okay. And in creating demand, obviously price matters. How do you see the cost of what you're talking about in terms of electric as compared to traditional fuels or sustainable airline fuels? That's a great question. So the nice thing about electric motors is they're much simpler than fuel powered engines. So the first thing is that from a maintenance and development perspective, the cost should be lower and then that cost gets eventually passed down to consumers. But then the cost of electricity and the cost of batteries are both coming down every single day faster than people might have expected. So we think eventually electric planes will not only be zero emissions but will be lower cost delivering higher profit margins for airlines and also lower costs for consumers. Thank you. Dick, I'd love to turn to you. As the CEO of Shipple, you've been driving a lot in the ecosystem. How do you see us moving and accelerating frankly to net zero aviation and the role that airports can play? Thank you very much. And thanks for having me. It's the biggest long-term challenge for aviation clearly. And I think you highlighted as others do the benefits of aviation, but we have to deal with sustainability. We have to deal with the carbon issue. That's the level of commitments, of course. And we as an airport and a group of airports, we do have a commitment, including to be net zero at the airport already by 2030, but then because we're not the biggest part of the emissions to contribute to cleaning up aviation as a whole. And we want indeed, and others will talk about that as well, to have a clear perspective and a clear commitment on net zero aviation by 2050. No separate table, no separate commitments for aviation. The sector suffered a bit from being quite early with its own commitment and then struggled a bit to catch up with Paris. I think that it is timely to do that now. And then it's all about the actions, of course, for ourselves. We have been trialing a taxi bot this year at the airport, so electrifying, pulling planes towards the runway and bringing them back instead of on their own motor. And we have been supporting, and that's really the, I would say, the line of attack for the coming decade, the development of sustainable aviation fuels. But it will be a first dedicated factory in Europe in the Netherlands being built. KLM supporting that, supporting that. And we'll have a pilot as well for the other side of the sustainable aviation fuels, the other parts around synthetic aviation fuel to be developed, because bio is not the only pathway, we'll need synthetic fuels, we need hydrogen for that. So in Rotterdam, we'll do a pilot with even direct air capture there. And then we're trying to work together because I hear that from everybody and it's really about moving the whole ecosystem in partnership. And we're doing our best here to get the fuel players on board as well. So sky energy, of course, dedicated here, but nestay, shell, unipair, and others, big developments potentially ongoing in the Rotterdam area around hydrogen, and I think building those coalitions and getting those players involved extremely necessary. My biggest concern really is we're in a race, in a race against time and in a race for skill, that's climate change. But then if we do, if we get everything right, we probably have a fighting chance, but then everything has to work together like clockwork, technology development, policy and regulation, investments, and it's really not yet. And that's where this policy and regulation dimension, the European Union, the Green Deal is so important, because we scatter gun at the moment with various measures and then yes, you get pilots and yes, you get a bit of taxation here and then you start to add cost there. Let's focus on the big moves. Let's focus on, for example, mandating sustainable aviation fuels, get pricing right, and make those big moves. And that clockwork is not there yet and that worries me a lot. What can we as a group, a process broad set of actors here do to enhance the policy and what I'll use the word regulation that we need to drive this to where it needs to be? First of all, be credible in terms of your own commitment and your own actions, of course, that's where it all starts. So everybody, we have to play our role that it's on the commercial side, the technology side, the infrastructure side, the deployment side. But secondly, have this type of dialogue as well with policymakers to get the policy part and the regulatory part right. Because if we don't do that, we'll see all kinds of first initiatives, first plant of this, first development of that. But how do we get beyond that? How do we get into this scale? And therefore the investments and the policy and the regulation and the pricing and the technology development all has to work together. So we need this dialogue as a sector between players, but with policymakers as well. Thank you. Jonathan, I want to turn to you as Group Head of Sustainability at IAG. I mean, you are the customer for the airplanes, of the airports, for the fuel that you buy. And you've made a very significant commitment with the one world commitment. Can you talk about what airlines think is possible, how they're going to get there? I hear all these nice words like, you know, zero-based routing and rethinking the way we operate. But you know, what can you do to get us there fast? Jonathan, are you on mute? I'm not. Hi. Hello. Good afternoon. Good morning. Good evening, everybody. And thank you, Wendy. Yeah, the one world announcement was a great project and a real example of, I guess, radical collaboration. It took about a year. All 13 airlines, though, are now fully committed. And the key was going back to the climate science, saying, so why net zero emissions by 2050? Link back to the science, because that tells you what you need to do. And it was great to be able to make the announcement that they can stop taking events. I had to say it was a truly collaborative event supported strongly by the one world team and their CEO, Rob Gurney, particularly. But now we're focusing on where next. One world won't solve the industry's climate change problem. We need the whole industry to come together. So we're hoping that will act as a spark for the rest of the industry to commit to these targets. Because once we get these targets, then we can start getting the policy mechanisms that can enable us to deliver these solutions. And we focus very much, as Dirk has said, on sustainable aviation fuels. So here in the UK, we believe 30% of all our fuels could be sustainable aviation fuels by 2050. We could have up to 14 plants here by 2035. And that will include Lanza Tech's great waste gas to jet fuel technology and our partner, Velocis, which takes waste materials and standard rubbish into jet fuel. But the absolute key is policy. We need policy. And I know Dirk has said that as well. So that's why we're working collaboratively with all of the major players in the UK to lobby our government. We need these policy signals now because our challenge is to attract investors to spend hundreds of millions of dollars to build these first of the kind plants. So one of the things we're very excited about is the UK government setting up the Jet Zero Council. So this is after a couple of years lobbying from the industry. So it's a real, it's another example of radical collaboration. So it's government led, it's chaired by two ministers of state, but it includes academia, NGOs, all of the major companies in the industry, and the oil companies. Basically, with the sole remit, how do we accelerate the industry's delivery of net zero emissions? So we're very excited about that. Well, thank you, Jonathan. Jennifer, I want to turn to you. As CEO of Lanzatech, we're hearing a significant amount of this depends on the SAP, the sustainable airline fuels in getting there. And it's a long haul flights are a large part of this. You're doing the waste to fuel and power. Tell us what Lanza can deliver. If I understand correctly, you've got customers committed to buying your output, right? That's right. So we are now building what is essentially a 40 million liter a year facility to take alcohol to jet fuel to SAF. And as that proves out, we actually have a parallel track to build three commercial plants that will get us to almost 400 million liters per year of SAF. And the target is by 2025 to be able to do that. And what I want to comment on is the way we did that is through some innovative financing. One of the problems we have when we're scaling up technology, and this gets back to the comment that Dick made, that we see a lot of things getting the first one. But how do you get the next three, the next five, the next 10, how do you diffuse the technology? And so the way we did it, because I spent a lifetime trying to cross the valley of death with new technologies, is we managed to get investors to agree that they would support building the first plant that I just mentioned that should be up and running at the end of next year. But if that succeeds, if that looks good, they're willing to then commit to investing in the next plant. And by doing that, by only bringing investors who agree to do both tranches, we're able to get ourselves on a path to scale. I do think governments really need to help. I see a lot of governments support the early stage. How do we do the first trials or the small plant, which is great. But it gets harder and harder once the plants get bigger and bigger and more expensive. And so we really need to fill the whole pipeline and support technologies as they get across. Once they've gotten across, let the market decide what the best technology is. But until that point where you've scaled and built a couple of commercial, you don't know the real cost. You don't understand the real potential. And you don't understand the environmental impacts, the true environmental benefits. So that would be my feedback. Jennifer, could we stay for a minute on this cost question? And one of the criticisms that I hear on SAF really is the cost and maybe to be specific, the cost at scale, right? I've heard a lot about, well, we can do a pilot in a small way and we can control the cost depending on where we source the waste and things like that. But how do we get to scale, be it with the biofuels and realizing that that's agriculture based and there's a whole value chain in harvesting those or even the synthetic as we talk about the PTO and the power to liquid. Can you talk to me a little bit more about the cost? I'm hearing criticisms from some people that SAF is about 10x the cost of a good offset. And I'd love to, it's an important component of how we get there for aviation. But what is your expectation about where the cost can get to? Yeah, and I think that's a great question, right? If the question is, is SAF going to compete in the next 10 years, and I'm using 10 years, not even a few years, with fossil based kerosene, I'm not going to hold my breath for that. Okay, right now kerosene is as low as it's going to get, right? Nobody's expecting the price of petroleum to go about 60 anytime soon per barrel, right? And that's going to make it very difficult for SAF to compete. However, I do believe that if we get past the next five to 10 years, the prices will come down. And the reason they'll come down is because as these new technologies scale, right, they scale at a point six factor, not a one to one per gallon, as you get bigger and bigger and bigger. But we need the technologies to have gotten to the next stages so that people have the confidence to build really, really big ones. You know, I'm talking about a billion gallons of production capacity at a specific site. If you can get there, then the costs will come down because the steel that you're putting in the ground will get less expensive. The other thing, and a lot of people, not just ourselves are focused on waste, because that's a feedstock that's readily available and inexpensive, right? In some cases, there's even a tipping fee because people want to get rid of it. So if you can do that, if you can really learn to access those feedstocks, again, the prices will continue to come down because your feedstock is normally 70 to 80% the cost of production. So as you can start to leverage those very cheap feedstocks, you will make real progress. I am really optimistic that if you think of it the way I do, which is caro plus carbon, that we will be competitive in the next five to 10 years if you think of it that way. But it has to be a cost of caro plus carbon and not just caro. Because I think the dynamics are such that the price of conventional fossils will keep coming down, demand will keep coming down, right? So these are things we need to factor into our equation. You know, we heard Judson talk articulately about the flywheel that can get going with customer demand and Microsoft's commitment to use sustainable airline fuels on some of their routes for their employees. Jonathan, we've heard talk about the expectation. But, you know, Jennifer, you talk about a scale of, you know, billions of liters or gallons. How do we get to that scale, right? Is it just accelerating that flywheel? What do you need to change with your customer base and your, frankly, your investor base to continue to accelerate to reach that kind of scale? Yeah, absolutely. And as Jennifer said, it's critical, get those first plants built. Once you get those first plants built, you quickly start going down the learning curve. And we're exactly with Jennifer. We think it will take five to 10 years. And then we'll have fuel that is cost competitive with fossil-based fuel with carbon prices. So for us, the focus, it's a sort of laser focus, get the first plants built. And that's where we need the policy support to help us do that. And there's a range of, and Dick has talked about mandates. And we think, you know, there is a role for carefully designed mandates to help provide those signals to our investors to give them confidence to invest that money into those first two or three plants. But Jennifer has also mentioned carbon pricing. And this is, this is really key. We need a global carbon price for our sector. And Corset is a great first step in that direction. And what we want to see is sort of a building on, on the good work we've got with that implementation of Corset, because that will eventually provide all the incentives we need to build the sort of third, fourth, fifth, sixth, and eighth plants. Thank you very much. Can I come back to some of the, the innovative topics we haven't talked about? I, I would love to hear someone talk to hydrogen. It's one of those things that I think people hold out there is a real opportunity. Is there someone who'd like to explain to us what that opportunity can be and how you may be playing in, Dave? Yeah, I'll talk about it. So you can use potentially, we can use hydrogen in aviation in, in two ways. We can, we can use it as a fuel for fuel cells to create electricity. And then it's sitting alongside the sort of battery technology we're talking about earlier for the short haul for the smaller platforms where it may be that using hydrogen and fuel cells competes with battery energy densities and might be more practical potentially. You can combust hydrogen in a normal, so almost in a normal car engine and certainly in a gas turbine. You have to check, you have to modify some parts. It's not the same engine. It doesn't just drop in like a, like a Saftas, like a Lanzatec fuel. We can just drop it in and our engines will work if it's blended. And we believe it'll work a hundred percent as well. And we hope to have news on that before Christmas as well. So that'd be great. But you can burn hydrogen in a slightly modified gas turbine if you can prove the safety and the reliability. That will get you up to sort of medium range potentially. It still isn't going to get you into the long haul. It's still not going to get you a transatlantic flight, we don't believe, but we don't see how that would happen. But, but that could well be one of the tools we need. We said earlier we've got to throw everything at this. There isn't one technique that's going to do it. Hydrogen could be part of it. There are some challenges. First, we've got to make enough green hydrogen in the world. And today we don't. We make brown hydrogen. We burn methane to make hydrogen, which is making the whole thing worse at the moment. So we've got to make a lot of green hydrogen. It looks likely that there will be a hydrogen economy globally. But the thing about hydrogen is you can do quite a lot with it. You can use it for heat, power, propulsion. So other people are going to want to use the hydrogen. And can we make enough green hydrogen to supply all of these uses? I don't know. Can you get it globally? So it's at every airport. So there's no point flying from one airport with a lovely hydrogen supply and landing at one without any because that's the end of that journey. And can you get a useful set of ranges? Or actually, if you're going to gear up an industry that creates enormous amounts of sustainable aviation fuels, which we all agree we have to do, and we all agree is possible, it's an immense effort, but it's doable, technically doable, economically doable, but difficult. If we're going to do that, then do we need another fuel? Do we need two sets of logistics? Do we need two sets of infrastructure? Do we need two sets of engines? Do we need two sets of aircraft? Can we afford that? And I think the jury's out on that one today. So hydrogen is very interesting. Everyone's investigating it. We should. We can't shut down any technological allies at the moment because we think we're going to need two, three, four. Even within SAFs, there isn't just one way of making SAFs. Lanza Tech is one. There are others. There's heifer. There's power to liquid. So there's a whole range of ways of doing this. And today we really have to explore quite a few of them because we might need two, three, or four of them, just as we need to get the efficiency of the aircraft better. We still need to do that to help this challenge. And we need to add electrification, both for the short haul and there's a supplement to our existing aircraft again as a sort of additional efficiency move. So there's quite a complex picture, but we are all doing all of these things. The good news is everything I've spoken about, people are very seriously looking at how to do. And probably the bit that's still just missing is that making the market bit. But I see a lot of good moves happening there. The EU refuel consultation that's happening now could be a very powerful thing for humanity and for aviation, if that concludes. And governments around the world are starting to follow, hopefully the UK government with Jonathan chatting to them all the time and reminding them of their obligations, which they feel going at hence jet zero. So I think there's a real chance that we're going to do this. And hydrogen may or may not be part of it, but we're not going to shut the door to it, that's for sure. Jonathan and Dick, I'd love to get you in on this conversation because I just heard Dave lay out something that has exciting potential as part of the solution. But as Jonathan, the customer in some way who has to manage these planes in this complex system of where they're going to land and what supplies are there. Dick is a airport where you've got to be able to support any of the planes that want to land and be able to make sure that they actually have the power to take off again. How do you see this as potential or the complexity concerning? Well, I would look at it from the side of the potential and you see it coming back in our own master planning. For example, if you think about the airport 10 or 20 years out, what do you need? So you'll probably need an electric infrastructure in order to be accommodating E-flight. Hydrogen might be the case, might not be the case. So we're certainly starting to factor that in and it's our role to facilitate that. We should not be the bottleneck and I fully agree that we have to shoot a lot of arrows at the moment and explore a lot of pathways. And then at a certain point in time you'll see from efficiency reasons and for economic reasons you'll see what is going to crystallize out and then as an airport we have to be able to facilitate that. But we want to be at the forefront of those developments at Schiphol. So if push comes to shove we will be there. But hydrogen is a very interesting one of course because you see it also in the sustainable aviation fuels part. If you talk about the synthetic fuels you need hydrogen to create the synthetic fuels and there the fact that hydrogen is so multi-usable it probably will be a new vector in the energy system is an advantage as well because you will see combinations. You will see it with industrial or chemical clusters where there will be a need for hydrogen and making sustainable aviation fuels as part of that can be an opportunity as well. And probably for a while we need to settle for hybrid solutions at the same time. There will be a real problem in terms of supply of green hydrogen but there's the potential of blue hydrogen as well indeed made from natural gas but then we see a two capture and storage and that probably won't be the 2070 solution but it will certainly be part of the 2030 and the 2040 solution and we have to take those routes into account as well. I don't think there's any alternative for that because we always underestimate how big the system is. The energy system as such the aviation energy system and how big the investments that we need to make. So we can't be too picky we only want to do this we only want to do that it has to be 100% now because we have to get going. Hi yes and yeah we agree with with the dig there. We think we think that hydrogen has a role to play. I mean when you look at all the roadmaps that are produced for aviation this year that it's quite clear there's no silver bullet. We need everything to be able to get to net zero emissions all all technologies and sustainable aviation fuels and so on. So we believe as has previously been said we think it's a short haul small aircraft short haul but we do have to overcome some of those challenges that have been mentioned around availability of hydrogen competing with other sectors. It's non-drop-ins they have to modify obviously the engines and the fuel supply systems but on the opportunity side we think there's real complementarity with power to liquids because it will enable that supply of hydrogen that enables you to get to power to liquids quicker which we think will be probably the primary sustainable aviation fuel post 2035. So real real complementary complementarity there and also of course they are truly zero carbon there are no CO2 emissions from hydrogen powered aircraft and we believe there are also some potential benefits for non-CO2 emissions which is another issue that we need to address as a sector so we think yeah absolutely potentially it could be a part of the mix. May I make a comment on this? Yes please I want to get Jennifer in and I want to get Jeff in on this conversation so Jennifer please go and then Jeff will turn to you. So we're a big believer in hydrogen becoming an important part of the future of both aviation and liquid fuels as was stated one of the reasons is not just the power to X but also the fact that conversion of waste products the addition of hydrogen in those systems actually increases yield okay if you if you use a waste feedstock whether it be biomass or municipal solid waste often the amount of hydrogen available to convert all the carbon is not there so green hydrogen will play a role in increasing the productivity out of those waste resources the only thing though that I would like to say as as much of a proponent than a potential user of hydrogen as I am I need for us to be very careful I hear a lot of discussions right now about synthetic fuels and power to X and all these things which by the way our technology will work very nicely with but I'm afraid we get way ahead of our skis and so we get bored with things that are working and that is why we have a hard time sometimes replicating because we fall in love with this next big beautiful shiny bobble you know we're going to take carbon directly out of the air we're going to add green hydrogen to that and we're going to convert that to synthetic fuels and we start to focus our energy on these notions and ideas which are great by the way and I believe are the future and then we forget the things that are scaling because scaling is hard that's where the hard work comes in and we just assume look at the next big idea so like I said please do not take this as I'm not a huge believer in fact I spent a lot of time inside my company talking about how we're going to play in the power to X sector but I don't want to forget about the things we can do today that make both environmental sense today and economic sense we have to bend the curve and we cannot bend the curve by thinking about 2030 or 2040 we bend it by thinking about 2021 2022 2023 that would be my my feedback well thank you Jennifer because you're pushed for what we can scale and how fast we can scale is so important for all of us Jeff can I bring you in on here and if you or anyone else wants to talk about liquid hydrogen because as we talk about this I think it would be helpful for sort of everyone watching to to understand the the potential there yeah absolutely thanks thanks for that so we're exploring all of those we're exploring liquid hydrogen gaseous hydrogen all of those I think could be good technologies and our you know our the technology that we're building at right motors and inverters and other underlying parts of the technology the underlying technology that would go into these future airplanes will work with any of those I wanted to pick up on something you said though that you mentioned a few times you said Jonathan Jonathan is the customer the airline is the customer and I think you know that's a really interesting point I think what's interesting about aviation though is that it's it the custom the airline isn't actually always the only customer it can be governments and it's the consumers themselves so going back to the example of California you know the government of California announced that they want all cars to be to be eventually electric the government of Norway has announced that they want all their short flights to be electric there's there's a lot of work that governments and that also organizations like the world economic forum can do to help get the conversation going and shift the narrative so I think you know and especially right now what's going on in in the aerospace world airlines are hamstrung there they have tons of operational challenges they might not always be thinking 10 15 20 years out obviously we want everybody to do that but you know they have day to day work to be done I think the role of the governments and the role of organizations like the world economic forum cannot be overstated and in a sense that's where a lot of this change will happen and so I think you know of course it's got to be collaboration but I just wanted to sort of make that point because I've heard you mentioned it a few times and I think governments and other agencies can also be really have to be part of this this group has had tremendous insight I hate to have to move to close but I think we're going to have to to keep us moving could I ask for closing comments I think we've got probably about 30 seconds per panelist but if you could all give us your your closing wisdom I'd be grateful we can just go go round if someone wants to jump in well I'll kick off I think what we're all saying is we need to make the technology we've got today more efficient we need new technology and we need sustainable aviation fuels and all of those things are possible all are being worked on now and we need to cooperate to do that and we need governments and policy to help drive that and help support that because it's an immense undertaking but it's one we're all really so excited to do as we all become zero knots thank you Dave I find it amazing I find it amazing how how the discussion has evolved if you would have had this panel two years ago it would have been very different in terms of the evaluation of where we are what the options are how to do it and how to bring all the dimensions from technology up until the customers and the commercial site together so I think as an industry we are really evolving but we still have to make a bigger impact in terms of our credibility towards society as well as getting getting the policy piece right. Hi Wendy I'm happy to go next if uh please and I think I think the theme radical collaboration is absolutely the key message for me I mean climate change is not going to be solved by any one company or even one set of companies it has to it's an industry challenge it needs an industry solution so I think and I certainly seem to spend I'd say at least 89% of my time out out of the not talking to within the airline but to other companies so that's at an airline level at an aviation sector level with airports and manufacturers and air traffic control and then with the broader group of stakeholders so we talked about government absolutely key but also corporate customers NGOs academia all those we have to work at all those levels to make this happen and ensure that we can deliver our net zero emissions by 2050 ambition thank you Jennifer sure um the the key comment that would make is that we are often creating false choices of one thing versus another and so the theme of today of collaboration and getting to zero as quickly as possible is really the key we need it all and we need it now no more time for debate no more time for discussion give it a shot if it doesn't work move on but don't overthink it we're overthinking solutions approaches government legislation etc and by overthinking it we're not setting things in motion fast enough and I think we're all watching the world it's on fire right time to act Jeff uh so for everybody out there right now um if you're listening the number one thing you can do to help support sustainable aviation is write your government write your elected officials and tell them you want sustainable aviation and you can play a big role in helping all of this happen so thank you again okay so a huge thank you to our panelists I am hearing the kind of collaboration from this group that we need broadly across the industry and that Charles was calling for at the beginning of this session working across the entire value chain of customers the entire ecosystem and making sure that we deliver the innovation and that those around us can deliver the policy that we need for this to succeed and as Jennifer says at scale quickly so I'm going to hand over to Jane upe so Jane if you could please pick up now I'd be very grateful Jane is the chief of the environmental unit of the international civiation civil aviation organization thank you and good day everyone the current crisis affecting aviation is unprecedented but so is the volume and speed of initiatives for disruptive revolutionary solutions for a greener aviation the pace by which you see the development of electric and hydrogen planes or new processes for generating sustainable aviation fuels it's unparalleled and for the first time sustainably motivated and the international regulations for their certification need to be developed and soon environmental sustainability is also a prerequisite for investment and the flying public wants the ability to fly sustainably long-term commitments are essential for the construct of the carbonization pathways what should not shadow the need to act now iq with its 193 member states is leading and facilitating action now to keep net carbon emissions from international aviation from 2020 at the same level by implementing a basket of measures that includes green technologies sustainable fuels operational improvements and corsia iq global carbon offsetting and reduction scheme for international aviation the first global market-based measure for our sector while our priority is and will remain in sector measures to reduce emissions corsia is a complementary measure to ensure the achievement of carbon neutral growth i'm happy to inform that corsia is on track iq completed all necessary steps for the start of the pilot phase on 1st January 2021 iq is also assessing the feasibility preparing options and a roadmap for a long-term aspirational goal just a few weeks ago nearly 100 initiatives and solutions to reduce in sector aviation emissions were presented at the iq stock taking seminar clearly showcasing that we can dramatically reduce co2 we were inspired by the many examples of zero net co2 emissions for aviation and through by the first hand announcement of the one world alliance commitment for net zero by 2050 the stock taking event is available on the iq tv building upon the momentum created by the stock taking iq is continuing to engage with all stakeholders to facilitate the development and accelerated implementation of these initiatives under the iq coalition for sustainable aviation on that note let me invite you all to the iq aviation green recovery event to be held virtually from 23 to 24 november hope seeing you all there aviators are innovators and as aviation continues to explore most promising innovative solutions for in sector co2 reductions it is imperative that the right policies and legal frameworks the infrastructure needed and access to the fair share of clean energy amongst all activities and sectors are in place with a view to achieving level clean fuel for an inclusive and effective green recovery there is no silver bullet there is no one fits all our measures count and global cooperation has never been so important thank you yeah this is this is christoph wolf i am the head of mobility at the world economic forum as a world economic forum we have put together the clean skies of tomorrow coalition that has been referred to over the panel and i'm thanking everybody to for being with us today let me say a few words at the end to close out i think we i think this was as dick said we would not have had this optimistic panel two years ago so this is great and we learned a couple of things yeah so we learned that we needed all and we need it now echoing what what landslide was saying we do have enough energy on the planet yeah for for for green hydrogen i think we learned that three percent of the sahara will actually supply the energy in the future so we you just need to make it happen in terms for scaling sustainable aviation fuel is is basically a great recipe for scaling because you can blend it you can start with five percent today and you can get it up to a hundred percent and you can even do it with the given infrastructure and electric and hydrogen will play a role but we actually have the technology there today in order to to make it to make it scale now today we actually as a world economic forum with the help of mckinsey and the energy transition commission and rocky mountain institute we are publishing our self analytics report which goes into depth about is there enough feedstock what are the cost curve how can the pathway to net zero 20 20 50 b and we would invite all of you to to read this and we would like to make in the spirit of radical collaboration with our partners from the community i would like to congratulate ikeo for very spirited leadership across the sector i think there's a there's a steady clockwork or the wrong beat of of events and initiatives to um going towards cop i would like i'd like to congratulate also mention our our colleagues from the atek team the aiata that also they just did the waypoint 20 50 and all of this i mean dick was referring to the clockwork maybe not being there but i think this is now i think step after step and the and the basically the reason for this is to build global confidence yeah so we will be in two years um at the ikeo um global assembly and we will we will talk about it will be talked about what the long-term goal should be and i think the the key thing is until then to build confidence that this is doable in a globally equitable way yeah and i told jane if she doesn't say it i will say it nobody left behind yeah so within the within the clean skies of tomorrow coalition so we're looking at finance we're looking at the important role um of the flywheel that that corporates like microsoft can play uh in order to build uh demand early we we work with the eu commission and all the stakeholders on the european green deal and the blending mandate for this to come in early and and scale in a way that it's rapid it can be rapidly but we also we started with india with the basically all 40 stakeholders in india what actually um sustainable aviation fuel and the and the and the and the transition to net zero can actually mean for developing country and because that this is where the growth will be but they can also be suppliers to the world for for sustainable aviation fuel and we will go to other countries in order to build confidence with governments and stakeholders around the world um that this is actually doable in an equitable way i want to thank everybody for great contributions and i think was a great um was a great conversation and um so thank you very much from the world economic forum