 This episode is kept to go a show about feeling out of place Central paid bye. We've done our fair share of travel when I tell you I have never in my life seen a city with this level of Wealth the cheapest cheeseburger is like 86 dollars. You cannot get a cheeseburger for less than 80 bucks love sandwiches 75 dollars a coffee is 25 dollars and when that might not be a bad thing There's a certain tone deafness to people who hang out in Davos, Switzerland and eat $50 hamburgers I've heard about Davos and it was this idea of You're an influential person and this is a place where people are going to help the world back to your earlier point You know, of course, they're being deceptive. Of course, they're being Elitist, of course, they think that the sheep need to be herded. They're so beyond that that it's second nature to them I think it's a more helpful to switch to Kissinger because I think you can only Understand Klaus Schwab by understanding Henry Kissinger That first clip was from the Logan Paul gang on their trip to Davos The second was from today's guest Mark Gober returning guests with his new book and end to the upside down reset Welcome to Skeptico where we explore controversial science and spirituality with leading researchers thinkers and their critics I'm your host Alex Cares and today we welcome Mark Gober back to Skeptico Mark keeps cranking out these fantastic books in his upside down series And I just keep having them back because they're so Good every time I run across one of them and the last one and end to upside down reset is no exception And uh mark, it's great to have you back. Thanks for joining me here on Skeptico Alex, thank you. Thank you so much for having me back. It's always fun chatting with you and I'm looking forward to this topic well This topic as it turns out this is almost like To me it's a model for this Skeptico reboot thing, you know, and I don't know exactly how this conversation is going to go because I guess we should fill people in a little bit I actually did a pretty extensive pre interview with you that was really great and we really talked about This topic of the great reset but then we talked about a lot of other things in terms of Particularly what connected me from a skeptical perspective to this book and your perspective on this topic and and then from there We scheduled the interview and I said wait wait. I got in the middle. I said wait, you know, there's a couple more interviews I'd like to do before we do that. I'd like to go interview Johnny vedmore who's done this incredible series along with whitney web on unlimited hangout on The schwaub family and on all this stuff related to this Fantastic work interviewed him and then I said hey in charlie robinson Just done some great work and the octopus of global control fits into this as does some of his worst recent work on Aspen institute and all this globalist agenda stuff that's going on So I wanted to do all that Mainly as kind of a result of us having that Initial conversation where I think we both felt like, you know, maybe we were really troubled with this topic But we were kind of coming at it from a different perspective that we hadn't heard many other people talk about so I just want to have a very kind of freewheeling conversation about that And I know you're open to that because whenever we do we have really great conversations So I'd start just by saying I guess we have to start with Kind of some definitional things and some basic things you wrote this book And into the upside down reset thumbnail sketch. What's it about? It looks at the great reset, which is the world economic forums vision for society And one of the reasons I felt comfortable writing this book is that I didn't have to invoke conspiracy theory because They've written about this extensively. They've talked about it extensively in June of 2020 Klaus Schwab and Thierry Malloré Klaus Schwab is the head of the world economic forum and They published a book COVID-19 the great reset which goes through What COVID-19 meant in terms of being able to reset the world and they they saw An opportunity to implement many ideas that had been in place for a while And then there's a subsequent book the great narrative So in my book I I examine What is stated? What's the stated vision and I break it down into six categories? They don't do it in this way But as I evaluated all the things that have been said I wanted to create this framework For myself, but also for others to then evaluate future events. So the six categories So hold on before you go into the six categories Total normie question and I don't want to do with a lot of normie stuff Because I want to dive deeper than that But neither do I want to just lay out a bunch of facts that everyone kind of knows and it's almost like the normie perspective Needs to be heard here because that's where I think we're really going to go with this is you talk to Number one. I talk to people about the great reset Most of the time I get a blank stare Right and these are educated people who know stuff and are you know In in this world and in business and they're like this and then when you explain it to them A lot of times what they'll do is go Well, what's so wrong with that? I mean, don't we have global problems that we have to address and haven't we always had people that are looking at things at this kind of bigger level that that ordinary People and even governments can't so mark. Why are you? Agitated why are people like me? agitated with the great reset I'm glad you mentioned that alex because I've talked to some very intelligent people In high powered positions who have not heard of the great reset. Maybe they've heard of the world economic forum But they again, they don't see Problems with the idea of powerful people getting together to try to help the world And I'm not convinced that everyone involves in the great reset has a nefarious intent I think many of them think they're helping But the reason that I'm agitated and that many others get agitated is that The things that they talk about even though they might have a veneer of compassion It's out of you know, this is for the common good. The results might not be so good. So they're talking about things like centralized power more global control technological surveillance transhumanism metaverse Those sorts of things which could spiral in a very negative direction and given what we've seen starting in 2020 But probably even before that it was it became very clear in 2020 Where global government started to control citizens much more that I view these things now as a much more serious threat You know, and I jump in there again because I'd say You just made a transition That should be troubling to people because it's like this is a part of the game that's played over and over again which is like Since when does solving global problems or looking at growth global issues entail transhumanism entail worldwide vaccination programs and sponsoring what Who who voted for that being the top agenda items as a global thing? So again, it kind of is sailing in under this There are some global problems. Let's get the brightest smartest people Let's network them together about solving these problems But then when they come out of it and there are all these other agenda items that none of us would put on the list What do you think about that? I agree with you. So I'm thinking now of some of the clips I heard from davos, which is the annual meeting for the world economic forum and associated individuals There's a clip of tony blair talking about the need for A way to keep track of who's been vaccinated and who's not vaccinated And that was the sort of thing that people called a conspiracy theory not too long ago And now not only is it not a conspiracy theory, but it's being advocated for that We need to keep track of people's health status and that could become orwellian very quickly. So I the problem here is that Yes, we have a bunch of people who are very influential and powerful and very intelligent in many cases, but it's They're looking at the problems from their perspective And they're looking at their own solutions and these are not people that we've elected We haven't voluntarily asked for them to create these solutions for us And that's where the problem can come in if things are imposed without our explicit consent Yeah, and it's it's it's also People don't realize because you talk about this and you just it's such A tricky thing to unravel like you said these people are not elected and then people might naturally jump to the conclusion Well, then so what then they're not really in power and then you go No, you don't get it. I mean, they're highly highly influential. I mean, they are influential at a level above A single government. They're influential across governments They're the go-to for the world health organization in terms of getting Marching orders or at least apparently getting marching orders They're the go-to for the united nations in terms of setting agenda At least they say we've gotten this from the world economic forum. There's countless number of world leaders who reference this group. So In this As we start to unravel it is we do have this kind of normie world And then we have this erratically conspiratorial Paranoid world which I think is much closer to the truth But the truth is undoubtedly someplace in between but the I think we have to really kind of We've done it maybe but really dispel the idea that the normie view of this makes any sense at all Because it doesn't this is not a normie kind of thing There's some major agenda setting here that is That is working its way into law working its way into policy already has And is highly influential in terms of where we're going. Do you have anything to add to that? Yeah, I want to say that what you're describing very well here is one of the reasons I wanted to write the book Is to lay these facts out and these are just objective facts in many cases of things the world economic forum has said Klaus Schwab for example has said we penetrate the cabinets with his young global leaders program Meaning that they have the world economic forums young global leaders are in governments all over the world Not necessarily in some cases the highest positions like Justin Trudeau Vladimir Putin, but in other cases people you might not know about and that's insignificant because they might be Influenced the world economic forum or its partners might be influencing governments Which can then impose things on its citizens So I think it's important for people to understand these basic facts that this is objectively happening maybe some people will won't think it's as harmful as I do or maybe you do but Just just to put on the table that this isn't only some Fringe conspiracy theory like on many of the youtube videos now if you talk about the great reset Wikipedia has a little thing at the bottom Which explains oh the great reset is an economic plan, which makes it seem like it's some kind of conspiracy This is just objectively what's happening. So I'm glad we're starting there And then let's jump over to the uh radically paranoid conspiracy angle on it too because That deserves some serious attention even if we pull back from it What is the the deepest darkest? Orwellian dystopian Uh kind of understanding of what's kind of revealed because you can read it It doesn't take it doesn't take much of a stretch As your book points out you just read the book and you go. Oh my god. They're right everything these Conspiracy theorists are saying it's laid out right here. You will own nothing and you will be happy You will have to eat less meat. You will not be able to travel unless you have a passport I mean, they're just kind of saying it. This is what we're going to do Well, the deepest darkest ideas here for me go to the metaphysical area And this relates to some of our prior conversations in my previous books Particularly my last book and end to upside down contact which looks at UFOs aliens and spirits And the idea is that human beings are not alone and there are other intelligences that exist Some of which might be physical others of which might be multi-dimensional And some of those beings seem to be benevolent and others are not so benevolent So my my mind goes to well, what is the relationship between malevolent entities that are non-human and Things that are happening on the planet. So when I look at the great reset, which is To me, it's it's one iteration of a general ideology an ideology that wants to control people We call it the great reset and the world economic forum is just one version of it And I like to be able to write about it because it's very topical and they've laid out the plan But this is not a new idea of centralized global control And sort of an an anti-human mindset that sometimes comes into play Which to me resembles a lot of the really dark stuff that I've examined in some of these other books So for just example ritual abuse of children animals and other humans where the idea is Through Horrific practices, it's possible to invoke dark entities demons and this is a historic practice It's been going on for a long time But there are many survivors in the modern era Many therapists who have worked with these survivors and I talk about this in an upside down context some of the evidence for it Not to say that every case is 100 real But there are some for sure And that's what matters because it tells us that there is a level of sophistication associated with evil that exists and what One of the themes that comes up when I've looked at this is that the dark energy wants to eradicate love and innocence and it wants to Keep people in a state of fear and trauma that that just seems to emerge over and over again So if you take some of those horrific rituals as like the most evil of the evil that you could imagine Some of those themes seem to be happening on a macro level too that we're perpetually in a state of fear And we know from these rituals and also from mk ultra that when you traumatize someone you can start to dissociate the personality Create multiple personalities and that like you like you covered in your amazing interview with tom zinzer that might open multi-dimensional opportunities for dark entities to come in so what i'm getting at alex here and then i'll pause is Is what's happening with the great reset or just this general movement toward global control Related to darker energies that have an anti-human tendency that want to keep our inner Love inner divinity if you want to call it that suppressed in some way I asked you to go full paranoid conspiracy and you overshot the mark by about three or four Hey three or four degrees Which which is great because where you went is really where I go in this But I want to make it clear that that's not really where most people go And I think that's the strength of this conversation. We're about to have I pulled it up before From laying out the structure of the book. Let's go back and do that Sure So the book is divided into two sections and there's an introduction and a conclusion The first section of the book looks at the psychology underlying a lot of the great reset rhetoric And to just summarize very briefly it's about the weaponization of compassion And how that kind of mentality can fool good people who have a caring intention And that's actually my biggest concern. I'm much less concerned about the really evil stuff these days I'm more concerned about the good people who are falling for the dark stuff and they don't see it as dark Hold up full full stop there. The weaponization of compassion is powerful. Yeah, but I think you have to I think you have to really support that because it you understand the pushback On that and there's some valid pushback on that which is One person's weaponization is another person's Actualization or implementation. How and when do we judge? What is the weaponization of compassion and before we get there give me an example of what you think we're talking about This general example is the notion of like collectivism that we should be doing things for the common good And we've seen historically how that can lead to horrific instances Whether it's in communism or fascism they end up with a highly collectivistic mindset Where you can say oh, well, we can do these horrible things to individuals because it's in service of the greater good Let's just take the treatment of people who were not vaccinated as an example Are you a good citizen? Have you been vaccinated? I just heard that exact question asked to What's that guy's name? Dave Rubin, you know, and it's just it's jarring So the term that I use in this book and also my book in into upside down living is compassion with discernment And the more I think about the more I think that's a really important idea because especially Those of us who have a a non dual spiritual understanding that we're all one at some level and you look at near-death experiences and psychedelic accounts and meditation experiences people talk about the same essence of benevolence that they come back with It's hard to describe with words. It's ineffable, but I just listened to more and more people They they had this very benevolent picture of of reality that's interconnected and they can't get past that So to me, that's important data. Just objectively. I can't reject that But then that can lead people to just just want to be compassionate towards everyone be loving towards everyone I tell the story in my book and end upside down living a woman She had some kind of spiritual awakening She met a man let him into her home and then she said it was hell The guy started manipulating her and she she couldn't discern So it's like the compassion is the first step that's part of the non dual understanding But the paradox is that we live in duality that there's mark and alex that there is separation at this level Even though at some level we seem to be interconnected. So the discernment This is what you're getting to in the show increasingly alex deception that that exists in this world That's it's a very important aspect of this world So there's got to be the compassion first then the understanding of deception and asking the question Is the compassion applied appropriately here or should we be thinking about it differently? So that's what I try to bring out a lot in this first half of the book Yeah, and i'm going to bring you back to the word that you use though because it's really the the important word the operative word And that's weaponization Because if you go there with the deception thing and if you say Deception is not only real but deception is always in play Deception is the way the world really works if you want to be objective and look at how things get done because we're basically in a world of conquest one group conquering another and militarily physically dominating and war doesn't really discriminate too much between Deception or those kind of things it doesn't it doesn't apply so much So it the war model does fit in with weaponization. So the idea of weaponizing compassion Which you're pointing at is that if you have this I got to take that hill at all costs to the extent that I can control people by Placating them with this idea that they are being compassionate because I find that that pushes their buttons Then yeah, that just becomes another Play in my playbook. It's almost like there are different types of evil if we want to call it that way there's the The really obvious type where it's murderous and Torturing people. I mean, that's like a horror movie But then there's the the deceptive part where it's it's masquerading as benevolent. It's a trickster And it's I think it's easier for people Who have maybe let's say this is part of our essence that we're all part of the one consciousness We have this benevolence within us To get people who have that innate benevolence to go along with something in many cases It might be easier to give them a bit of that benevolence on the surface and to just hope they're not going to see what's beyond that surface level appearance Yeah, I I agree and you know the one of the things that I kept coming back to again We're just going to kind of roll with this and kind of see where it leads. But this is who we are This is america You know the good and the and the bad the the you know, I love this story I was listening to uh bruce springsteen live on broadway, you know, he tells all these stories between the His songs I never was much of a bruce springsteen fan and I sure as hell i am now But he was talking about his most famous iconic song born in the usa Which if anyone remembers it and listens to it is really a protest song. It's really uh an activist activism song And he said when he first came out with it It was kind of misunderstood as misunderstood as a you know make america great again song and then when The the republicans the right wing kind of co-opted the song and they even used it He got really pissed and he was fighting him and telling him. No, that's not what it's about You know, it's about this guy and I got forced to go kill the yellow man kind of thing But then in his older age and bruce's older He realized that Maybe it's the greatest song that he ever wrote Because it really encompasses all that shit All that horrible shit that we've done all the ibegrabe shit and all the slavery shit and all the 9 11 shit and all of that and yet We're still somewhat or we need to try and be That beacon of light that light on the hill, you know what I mean? And maybe that's why we're talking today because we care about What we what we can be not what we default into not the the the worst That we use in the weaponization of these things that we have and I just think that Just like springsteen came around to the idea that Maybe that song is his greatest song because it is an embodiment of that We don't want to live in north korea You know what I mean? And that's what came up in my interview with uh with charlie rominson who does an awesome job and was highly influenced by You know, uh confessions of an economic hitman But when you really think about that and you go, yeah, they went we went over and we fucked over Uganda by putting in a billion dollar Hydrogen electric plant in the middle of jungle that they have no no place to send the electricity But we did it to stop the commies from getting there and at some point somebody sat down with somebody like you or I Good heartfelt people and said look kid. I hate to tell you but it's you know this way or that way Uganda's gonna go commie or Uganda's gonna go with us You know, which do you want and what are you willing to? Sacrifice maybe isn't the word but what are you willing to tolerate? In terms of stretching your morals In order for us to get there Does any of that resonate with? Kind of the other side of the of the great reset. Well, I think that I say this in the book. It's it's we don't know the intent of each person involved We can try to guess but that's a separate exercise to know what they whether they're trying to enslave people Or whether they mean well or whether they're being blackmail We just don't know the real forces unless you knew the person well or unless you're inside their mind So I I do think there probably are some people who think yeah, this is going to be Uh, it might harm some people to enact x y and z measures But in the end it's going to be for the greater good And one of the things I've been thinking about I write about this in the book too There's a psychological incentive Especially for people who think they're good and want to be compassionate To ignore the instances in which they are not being compassionate because it would be too painful to acknowledge that And I think there's some cognitive dissonance that's happening all over the place Where people would have to admit that they not only were wrong But they were being not compassionate and for people who care so much about compassion that could be a painful thing That's awesome mark. And you know what I think let let's Walk through that in terms of the players now Because one of the things that's kind of come up for me that has really set this thing in a different direction is You start with claus schwaab who's become this this meme who's become this Ultimate villain for a lot of people and you get the feeling that he didn't really see that coming He wasn't like super smart. I mean about that part of it about his public image And and the reveal to that is that uh, you will own nothing and you will be happy Worst marketing slogan ever. I mean, it's there's a certain tone deafness to The the the people who hang out in davos switzerland and eat $50 hamburgers and think well, gee, you know, what's Let's figure out what the world needs from from this perspective Let's let's talk about How you understand him as uh as a person and then we're going to also talk about henry kissinger because I think those two Understanding them at this deeper level as human beings and the way that you just said, you know, the Pluses minus is good bad complex people It's going to be really really enlightening to to where we're going to take this I think Okay, well, I'll give my perspective from having read the literature I know johnny vedmore has gone really deep into claus Schwab's history to the extent that we can because a lot of it's been Scrubbed so that makes it difficult too because we're trying to piece things together but I can understand how someone might read covet 19 the great reset and think it's benign because it doesn't come across as purely evil it's We want a more compassionate world. We want to do things for the common good and therefore we need the return of big government Because government's gonna help people we need more global coordination Or if you get into the next book the great narrative, well, we need stakeholder capitalism We need to start controlling how companies do things through esg environmental social governance And who wouldn't want good better things for the environment better social and governance those things all sound really good It's almost this this next level of analysis of seeing where it could go wrong seeing through Maybe in this case, it's not even deception. Who knows. Maybe he's not trying to see maybe he literally thinks it is a good thing But just seeing that the downsides Potentially of all this and maybe from my own personal experience of just having been in silicon valley In new york going to princeton for undergrad and knowing a lot of people who've been in high level positions just throughout my life and Like before I got before I even started writing about consciousness. I'd heard about davos You know six plus years ago. I'd heard about people going there and it was this idea of You're an influential person and this is a place where people are going to help the world So I think a lot of people who are going there are Genuinely have that mentality and it's possible that there's some part of fow shuab that feels that way too And like you're saying alex there might be a tone deafness of people who are just part of a certain type of culture Who who? Think they're doing good and they literally can't see the downsides. So i'm giving a very um The most benevolent picture you probably can give right there Yeah, and that's not i'm not coming at it from that Angle because I don't I mean I think those guys Back to your earlier point and you said it beautifully so I won't try and recapture it It becomes so ingrained and they're thinking of course they're being deceptive. Of course they're being Elitist of course they think that the sheep need to be herded and that that's what all these people are You know, it's like they're so beyond that that it's second nature to them I think it's more helpful Maybe to switch to kissinger because I think you can only understand claus shuab But understanding henry kissinger. That's what I came away with after talking to johnny vedmore and doing all my own research into henry kissinger because You know when when if you go look at the conspiracy Kind of culture that we're in that you and I kind of mix in henry kissinger evil one of most evil men war criminal evil evil evil Go look at that guy's background Go look at some of the touch points First one i'd lay on the table crystal knock crystal knock We all know crystal rock The nazis who if you understand the history of that the nazis just kind of stumble into control They never win an election. They're just kind of there and the economy goes Totally to crop and they're like they look around like all right And then they get in they immediately have the plan They immediately have the world economic forum kind of plan and they implement it to the hilt right off the bat First 30 days boom boom boom boom They're laying it down So if anyone thinks that this stuff doesn't happen and a few people can't do it look to that But crystal knock if you don't remember your history Is when they went and they finally you know are targeting the the jews, which is a crazy thing But that'll come up again But they go and they just start crystal knock is uh crystals class and knight michael they go break All these jewish businesses And they you know like you've seen in the movies and put the big star david on they say get out of here Let's kick the jews out now. Let's be coming real at a level that Even if you could kind of pretend like hey, maybe we can get along here if you're jewish at this point You can't and that's what happens to henry kissinger's parents Because three days either after before i can't remember crystal knock they go. Oh my god. We have to leave. We have to leave everything Everything that we've accumulated our wealth our business everything we've got to leave it all behind just to get the hell out of here and they get out of there Wind up in new york And there's henry kissinger. You can imagine this. He's a kid. He's a teenager He's walking now. He's walking on the other side of the street because this is kind of the same ship You walk on the wrong side of the street and you're jewish you get the shit beat out of you by the other kids, right? He doesn't speak the language. He can't do anything socially And but he's in america and he's glad that he's away from what would have been ultimate destruction so He joins the army And he eats ham for uncle sam which is an expression that's put forth by a lot of jews who You know say they kind of became assimilated into the u.s Culture by going into the army where everyone's just gonna treat it. Hey, here's here. I don't want to hear about anybody cut Here's your dinner just eat it kind of thing He is 21 years old He goes over and they put a rifle in his hand and he's fighting nazis and he's got He's got dog tags around his neck That say he's jewish which means If he's ever Captured it is immediately over right? I mean it is immediately over for that guy But he's a brilliant guy and he's recognized as that and he pretty quickly becomes Put in this Intelligence role inside the army and in the battle of the bulge. He's kind of brought to the headquarters and said hey Help us understand when these germans come in you speak the language and we know you're loyal to us Let's figure this stuff out and then later that becomes kind of a project paper clip thing Which I think he eventually Evolves into a real project paper clip role because he doesn't leave germany until 1947 What does that tell you? 1947 so now he's going in he knows the culture He can speak the language perfectly and he's meeting and he's sorting through Not just who are the good nazis and who are the bad nazis because we never really cared about that He's sorting through who are the nazis we can use And who are the nazis we won't be able to use Who are the nazis who are even the worst of the worst, but we don't want the russians to get him Undoubtedly this is the role that he plays And this informs This guy we think is so evil because he overthrows virtually every government Central and south america because he implements this nuclear destruction mass nuclear destruction kind of thing because he's kind of ruthless with foreign policy Because he's all the things that you talked about in terms of lacking in compassion But when you talk to the guy he goes no, man You don't get it. I walked into the death camp I saw it there and I saw the people that did it and I saw the results And I know how bad it can get and I know what we're fighting for So you can argue that he forgets the true Benevolence the true compassion the true love That is behind that but I think understanding That as that is america this guy embodies america And I'll stop there, but it's interesting to note He is the most influential guy or one of the most influential guys In claus Schwab's life other than maybe his father Give me your understanding of how we relate that to this situation. We find ourselves in Well, if I were to summarize the mentality that I'm hearing you describe It's that the ends justify the means And that can get to a point where the the underlying benevolence is lost And it can be it can be used as a rationale to do things that are Horrific in some ways, but the end results because From an elitist perspective. We know what's best for others and therefore we can sacrifice a bit here Does the end ever justify the means? Good question I don't I don't even think about it that way myself. So I'm having trouble Answering it. I start from the lens of from the spiritual lens of Who are we? Why are we here? And then we should act accordingly rather than The I think the end justify the means has A bit of a lack of intellectual humility built into it It's the belief that we know what's best what result is best and therefore However, we need to get there we can get there But mark you you live I was thinking about that Just this morning. I was walking the dog Beautiful day southern california Down on the beach. I have an incredibly beautiful lifestyle. I have a great family I have so many wonderful things If someone really sat me down and said bro grow up You don't want to give any of that up Here's what's necessary to maintain Your lifestyle drive 30 miles south alex go to tiwana. Do you want that you want that? Is that what you want? Oh, man Put me back put me back on the beach in del mar. Good point It's like where you draw the line with these sorts of things It comes down to individual judgment ultimately and then you get into really spiritual philosophical questions about free will and where you make your decisions ultimately and then how that that then Spins into a discussion of individual discernment Which goes back to this notion of compassion with discernment. That's where I land That you want to be compassionate and then you have to figure out where to go from there by Your own judgment and it also gets back to to the weaponization word that you used Because we'll tolerate a little bit of weaponization Just not too much weaponization But I actually think that this is the dialogue That you and I are seeking Not just for ourselves, but this is the collective dialogue. I think we're seeking we understand that america is flawed it's not perfect and that it's never been perfect but that It's our job to be that voice and say, you know what we're going to fight for The best we can be In a in a compromised situation that we find ourselves in in a world of complex individuals with different motives and all the rest of that and You know, you want to talk about a globalization and you have some valid agenda items Great, but you know as we you and I talked about on the last The last time we spoke one of the things I really Like and respect about you as we kind of came down to this truth thing and it's like, you know Unfortunately, you can't really mess with the truth and get where you want to be you can't say You know, I'll I'll just control the narrative people wouldn't really understand people can't handle it None of that ultimately works does it? No, because our decisions are based on the information that we have and if the information is not comprehensive then we might make Suboptimal decisions and that's where the truth comes in and that's where I mean my journey Is it's based around that trying to understand what's actually going on in the world and physically and metaphysically Because once I know have a better sense to the answers to those questions then I can know what to do and what my place is But then on a micro level, how do I make decisions? And how do I think about these trade-offs of of a compassion with discernment? so one of the Issues in researching all this stuff and even talking about it is that we're working with incomplete information. That's just part of life So we're trying to draw inferences But we don't know everything And maybe even more troubling where we started because I don't want to just paint over this What we do know Is really really troubling Right because the information that we that we do have coming out of it is pretty darn scary and stupid the thing that I always come back to because Science I think does provide a shining light through this in some ways But the light is being obscured so the the pillars of the reset are two things that stand on Compromise science junk science fake science Misrepresented science one is global warming Which if we have to explain to you now what a sham it is it's You got to go do the research, but I'll tell you this put some ice in a glass And then sit there and see that the water level rises and then go ask chat gpt The new ai overlord What is the sea level rise in the last hundred years in? Boston, Los Angeles, Miami all of them virtually none so There I went ahead and I couldn't resist because people still think you know Still think global warming is a real thing They even think global warming is a real thing when we've had 30 years of global warming Models that have completely failed the point being that you and I are leery right off the bat Because the deception begins their cornerstone elements to their whole program are deceptive global warming and the other is the efficacy and safety of vaccines which has been completely Dispelled I mean even their own data is coming back now So if those are the cornerstones that are really advancing this from a scientific basis Man, that's really scary. Isn't it right? So if we go back to this idea of compassion with discernment We're talking about discernment right now and a lot of people's discernment is based on Facts that they believe to be true certain assumptions And where are those assumptions coming from and why are they to be trusted whether it's With regard to climate change or vaccines or consciousness science All these things were being presented with information where if you investigate it beyond the surface level It doesn't there seems to be a lot more in the story consistently And this is where it is very much an information battle the more I look at this Because you get good people who will support something that's not good in the end because they're using assumptions that are inaccurate I find myself right now in a more pessimistic state than I have been previously because of this very issue Of good people who I don't see Looking past the the data that they're presented with Exactly. So, you know a few episodes ago I interviewed Dr. Bernardo Castro and I think you and I have talked about this Fantastic guy on the consciousness issue one of the most clear thinkers and writers on it Completely shatters the existing materialistic paradigm, which is also totally a part of this Transhumanism agenda, which is a significant part of the great reset. So that does fit in But then you pull Bernardo over here and he's been totally sucked into and he's a science guy He should know better. He's totally sucked into the climate thing and as you as you just said It's really really Troubling because we understand you and I especially because we're willing to go and look at the conspiratorial side. We understand mind control and we understand mass mind control We understand what it can do to large groups and you say wow It has penetrated This science community all the way up to the top where they can't see it and even when you just give them basic Facts, they just cannot process it in the same way that we always say. Oh, you know, the normies can't see it It's like no, man. Now. It's like some of the top science guys can't see it You can't have an intelligent conversation about this about climate change. I just heard It likes a freedman just did a four-hour debate on climate And it wasn't a debate He tried to make it a debate at the beginning. He goes, okay. Well, you know, there's some people who You know, I kind of think it's a little bit alarmist on one side and there's this is our middle ground He hands it over to the guy from the new york times. He goes. Oh, no, no, no, it's There's no debate. There's no scientific debate about climate. It's How could there be no scientific debate the technology for measuring the climate has changed radically in the last one of years How can you say that this This is what's Troubling to me too as you just said because it's hard to see How we get out of that What do you think? So two things come up for me. One is the fact that there are in my own journey and probably for others too There are multiple paradigm shifts starting out as a complete. I'll call myself normie, but I wasn't even I didn't even have a normie opinion. I just didn't care about anything other than like what I was focused on in my job I wasn't thinking about the world comprehensively and I did have a materialist perspective I thought life was random and meaningless biological robots in a meaningless universe I thought that's what science was teaching us. So my first paradigm shift was okay. That's wrong We live in a meaningful universe. We're not just biological robots post materialism But that is Inadequate that's sort of like the compassion part because once you get there post materialist, you see interconnectivity You see love. Okay, great. That's a huge part of it. You get to non-duality. I think pretty easily Then the second paradigm shift is understanding the deception That you've been covering so well on your show And that's its own rabbit hole, but you've got to have both paradigm shifts and maybe there are others too and there are lots of sub-paradigm shifts within those and lots of things to discern And that's where my pessimism is coming in. I'm seeing one paradigm shift or the other I'm more focused on the the post materialist paradigm people who got that down Then don't see the deception because those people are really good And I know they mean so well and how how much good they could do if they saw past some of the deception and there's a There's a psychological hurdle So I've been thinking back to the interview that was done in the 1980s with Yuri Besmanov Allegedly an ex kgb guy. I think there's been some dispute about his history So I haven't written about in my books But he says some things that I that seemed to be right and he said it's called ideological subversion You get people to a point where they're so brainwashed into looking at things a certain way That they literally cannot see the other side no matter how much data you present them with I'm paraphrasing an interview I heard a while ago But that is what I'm seeing there is a psychological block and There there's too much cognitive dissonance almost to see through it I I experienced this with the consciousness stuff You've done a really good job covering this on your show of people you present them with the side data The statistical analysis doesn't matter. They're not going to see through it But that goes along with this deception paradigm too that no matter what you present they'll they'll find a way to It's known as motivated reasoning. That's one of the psychological terms to justify their position So let's take a vaccination as an example I mean you mentioned some of the data that's coming out Dr. Naomi Wolf and her her group of many volunteers recently published your book Pfizer wanted or the FDA wanted Pfizer's documents to be hidden for 75 years and the court said no you've got to release these documents So Dr. Wolf and her her colleagues and analyze the data It's now out in e-book and they show there's all sorts of stuff that was not told to the public So at the very least You didn't have fully informed consent and there's a lot of worse stuff there um But with regard to vaccines people could say well, yeah the vaccines came out and yeah, there have been some Side effects, but look we're kind of out of covet They can do this correlation causation thing and like yeah, we needed the vaccines That's one example out of many you can always try to create a rationale and that's what I see happen It's like this mental gymnastics that always occurs to try to try to remove the possibility that we're being actively deceived There's there's so many points. I'd love to talk about the the the post materialist kind of Deception there because you've put your finger on something that I I never get a chance to talk about we'll have to do it now But you know, it's kind of funny to me is And that's where I think Lex Friedman is a really interesting guy And I think his heart is totally in the right place But I think he's totally missing the point, but they're tying it to ai now, you know again and again It's like oh, it's great, you know You can be non-dual and you can get past materialism and it's ai because that's you know, and it's like Probably you kind of this the whole boat there the point is that Consciousness is is proven to be outside of spacetime Silicon computers ai is by definition in spacetime. You're trying to make one of these leaps You're trying to do one of these global warming thing Just say it and never have to show any any reason or logic for it, you know, I just think it's It's really really strange to see the game The game it's played and then I don't know if we're going to be able to spin all this back together because all that relates back to me to the very first point you made in this section about What is byline that? What is the satanic Luciferian Promethean Drive to control To control to what you control to dominate For only for the sake of that, you know, that's That's what I think really troubles you and I about this from an evil stamp and I think For many people it's hard to relate to how troubled we are because many people I'm finding have not looked at the really really dark stuff If you listen to the survivor stories, you interviewed onika luka She has a new book out which when I read these survivor stories for some reason I can't stop reading them their complete page turners Even though it's horrific like you just want to understand this dark mentality And that's why I started I probably overshot the evil in the beginning because that's where my mind goes We have some extreme examples of the most evil that at least I've come across of wanting to violate another human Or another living being to just torture something. Where does that come from? It seems so counter to this benevolence So trying to understand where that comes from because it exists and that's the key that it exists Even though we're in a non-dual reality. There is this dark light too. We can't ignore that so And and just interject because I want you to pick up in this as you pointed out And this is like so important and then we'll tie it back to claus schwaab. It's You want to trace the history on this? This goes way back man. Yeah, this ain't no uh, nazi's invented it kind of thing. No, no, no, no It goes way way back Yeah, I mean there's stories about sacrifice in the bible the aztecs And then if you want to look at some of the scriptures the naghamadi scriptures My mind keeps going back to those so these were found in 1945 in a jar in egypt bound books that were written in the second 3rd 4th century ad approximately translated to english in the late 1970s to somewhat new And they talk about origin stories They talk about a lot of other stuff too with regard to jesus and things like that But i've honed in on the origin stories of like, you know, because I want to understand what are we doing here? And so it's interesting to see. Oh wow they These were heretical teachings apparently the the people who believed in it had to hide this stuff in a jar Why did they have to hide it so that they go something like this? My understanding of some of the stories and so there's the secret gospel of john There's another one called on the origin of the world and another called the nature of the rulers And they talk about a similar cosmology that there was one So oneness and to me that aligns with my metaphysics of non-duality But then there were individuations that spawned off of that one They called them in one of the books the luminaries and from what those luminaries there was a being named sofia and sofia had a rogue sun Known as the demiurge yaldabaeus goes by different names and that rogue sun created a realm In which the humans exist and the humans have the divine spark that connects to the outside of that realm the oneness But the humans were kept in a state of ignorance They used the term the imprisonment of humanity and a quote I think I mentioned this in a prior interview, but i'll say it again because it's so profound It goes something like this The rulers threw humanity into a state of confusion and toil so that they would be distracted with the things of the world And not have the time to be occupied with the holy spirit So if you think about that sort of cosmology It just lines up the data lines up that there's some kind of a suppression of humanity By darker forces that exist within the overall benevolence That we're trying to transcend and that just rings true to me with when we see all this happening in the world And probably what motivates me to write these books, especially when I see the great reset I see the metaphysical thread if this stuff goes In the most negative direction possible The suppression of humanity the suppression of our own divinity both in terms of the information we're exposed to But possibly genetically with transhumanism altering dna. What does that mean? Merging humans with AI. What does that mean in terms of possibly suppressing our spirituality? That's how I look at it. I'm with you I just I'm gonna look at the I'm gonna look at the that lens of history as more of a glass half full The light is always shining somehow or another The the light continues to shine through the darkness in a way that makes you think that that is part of the job of this Play that we're all in let's tie it back to because I think this is Super relevant to the conversation we're having about the great reset It's about the the town of Ravensburg where Claude Schwab is from And if you look at you've referenced that johnny did this kind of very very impressive investigative journalistic Tracing of his background, right? Because it's almost impossible to find Schwab is a super common german name There's a whole Schwabian area of germany, you know But he did it and he and he found out where he's from and a couple things emerge from that and one you can hear on the The great carl went on the higher side chats kind of brought this up and other people have said it in the In the conspiracy community, but it doesn't get much play is that Clearly there's Jewish ancestry in uh Claude Schwab's A background doesn't mean that he's necessarily jewish, but I think it's like his grandfather was married to a jewish woman or You know second marriage and there's these names that are very very jewish I think none of that stuff matters in the least in the least But it matters to a lot of people and it matters if you're in that time frame in germany in terms of how What you want to scrub your your background? So that's the way that it matters to me and it particularly matters in this place that they're in Ravensburg or claus Schwab is from because they have this like incredible insane Antisemitic past going back to like the 13th century and they throw all the jews out and they make it against the law for Jewish person to ever walk into town and then they accuse them of this thing called glove liable And I think this relates right back to our story. They say these dirty jews You know what they're doing They're getting together and they have these rituals where they get these kids and they sacrifice these kids So they're they're completely fabricating this thing How are they doing it? They're doing it in a way that resonates with this dark evil that we know exists We know for hundreds of years for thousands of years kids have been sacrificed. They've taken them right out of the mother's Arms and gone and killed them for some reason and it just gets us at the deepest level. It's kind of like this Darkest darkest thing and they do that and the nazis reboot that too. That becomes part of their accusation against the jews so What what really I thought was was so interesting about all that is how it relates to What we're really talking about in terms of evil but also How I think we're getting the narrative wrong because the the thing you most often hear about claus Schwab and unfortunately, this is the conclusion I heard from johnny vedmore is that he's a nazi and uh, there's like some evidence that clearly his father who is Running this very successful is running this turbine plant that becomes a key to The nazi business infrastructure, but it's like a large manufacturing plant back down in germany, you know, the nazis take over What are you gonna do you got You could fold up the whole thing and they can kill you and put somebody else in there Or you keep making the turbines and that's what he does But I think there's there's been this kind of Underlying current about claus Schwab that he was somehow a nazi There's no evidence for that evidence instead is that Back to tying back to another thing that he's henry kissinger He gets picked by henry kissinger to come to harvard and be in the young global leaders program number one run by the cia which says That we want to get the best global leaders in the world and we want to indoctrinate them with the cia Make america empire great again thing and that becomes That's becomes claus Schwab's lens to the world and when he goes back to Germany and he takes over his father's plant that becomes his lens And where I take that is that I have to wonder if it's a long long And I appreciate you just let me talk this out because that's what I feel like I'm doing here or we're doing together But that's kind of the part that makes me a little bit less scared of this whole thing Because it's some level it starts looking like A cia operation That we've we may not like or we may not be in favor of for all the reasons that we said But we're sure as hell familiar with it So a few things taking notes here I want to piggyback off of your glass half full with regard to the non-commodi scriptures They end in on a positive light and I mentioned this in my contact book They say that the light ultimately prevails In spite of the darkness but going back to your other points about Kissinger and claus Schwab and all that You're pointing to something a broader phenomenon I'm seeing a lot in the let's just call it the community of people seeking the truth who are looking at various conspiracies is is Drawing inferences off of too little too little data Like when seeing that two things are somewhat connected and then saying all these people are automatically conspiring or claus Schwab has a nazi background and therefore he is a nazi Drawing that therefore too quickly. That's something that happens very often and I personally I mean there's a tendency to want to do that. We don't have incomplete information We have to be really careful about drawing those conclusions now with regard to your comment about Not being worried about the great reset because maybe it is a cia op at its core My concern goes back to what I said before I'm less concerned about the evil from the great reset itself I'm more concerned about the good people who are going to support More control and how darkness can spiral within that when you have centralized power So to me it's it's more about A direction for society whether we call it the great reset or something else whether it's cia or something else It has the hallmarks to me of potential darkness because it's about control and that's where it leads So that's where I'm in some ways. I share your optimism and that it's not like maybe this grand satanic plan at its core like explicitly But it could turn into that because the ideology lends itself to those sorts of things and then we come back to our Our prior discussion about good people falling for it And that's where I just I can't get out of that loop as we're having this conversation right now That's like my current obsession is is the good people who aren't seeing it So that that still is a risk to me. I think that's really interesting We are going around but I think every time we go around we're hooking on to a new piece of it because I'm going to go around to it and Latch on to what you said about compassion because I think To whatever extent this journey that we're on down here in this space time is about Anything from a lesson standpoint. It's about How to be compassion and how to be compassionate in the face of all the complexities that we're talking about and that's what I think you're trying to kind of suss out in a really uh In a really good way and that's so how that I think applies here is I'd come back to this thing if someone explained it to you in terms of Kind of a global politics thing And that's what I think the Putin thing and the russian thing is so interesting because he was in the club right like you said He was a young global leader He's scratched. He he's now attempted to be erased from that part of the world economic form Because he's not exactly doing what they want right now. So If we look at it from a global world political standpoint it has these different nuanced points that we return to which is like Hey mark look you don't want russia to win and you don't want china to win So this is the chess move mark. This is how we go because if you if you just and again you can't help but be condescending Be good to the masses because that's where you get when you have these conversations But that same guy says because look You know that people are easily manipulated and you know that that whole kami thing is very attractive to people So what we're going to do is kind of co-opt it and one up it. We're going to call it Universal basic income. We're going to call it, you know, protect your Protect the environment. We're going to call it protect your your your safety and We're going to do that as a stopgap because otherwise This kami thing we already know it looks it looks attractive to people. So this is this is our chess move mark. What do you think? I don't like it. I don't know if this is what you're asking But this is where my mind goes as I was listening to you talk. I'm asking myself How is it that metaphysical evil manifests in our world? Because it seems like it can manifest in multiple ways it can manifest through this rationalization that you're describing Of while the ends justify the means it's all for good. It can manifest in the explicit through just murder and torture and things like that But how is it getting into our consciousness? So going back to post materialism The brain doesn't create consciousness is the brain like an antenna or a filtering mechanism. That's processing something And you helen a wah based book the science of channelings is talking about this that we're picking stuff up From other realms in terms of where our thoughts are coming from So where do these creative ideas come from that you're talking about universal basic income these chess moves? What is the source of that? And to what extent is the individual in control of those thoughts that come in? I mean to me, I think we have control over What we do with the thoughts for sure, but are there ways of strengthening the mind or having a certain intention such that those potentially deceptive thoughts aren't entering as frequently Brother that is so next level, but it's really really where my heart is at too I'll bounce something else off you This is true for me and tell me if this resonates with you When the truth comes through somebody And their intent is truly with the benevolent with the the light It just boom. It just comes through like a like a lightning bolt. It's just obvious that that's where they're coming from And the deceptive always has a little bit of a different flavor to it I can't think of many times when I've really been completely deceived by someone who and I think we have this intuitive deep sense of knowing what's true and we have a lot of evidence for That not waking up in people and being drawn into cults or being drawn into following the wrong things But I think in the same way that you're talking about it quite beautifully about building up that's that inner strength And attuning ourselves to the light I think it gives us a better ability to tune into people who maybe are in this power position Who are of the light? What do you think about that? I think you're talking about building a muscle. We all have it innately But the extent to which we use it has to be developed. I think Um, and I'm just saying that based on data points in my life of people who seem to have a lot of truth in certain ways but then in other ways aren't seeing the full picture. So it's like there's there's a blockage and This is probably where spiritual practice ultimately comes in Um, I I often refer back to ken wilder's framework and I talk about it in this new book and into the upside down reset as well Waking up cleaning up and growing up. I'm thinking about cleaning up in particular Of working on our own inner darkness and trauma that's unhealed to transmute that because maybe it makes our antenna So to speak get a clear picture like we get less noise more signal that way and therefore our inner discernment is able to come out more So it might be that this is just me speculating That a lack of discernment is a lack of inner work. It's a manifestation of a lack of inner work in some way I think that's profound. Let's apply that wilbur methodology, which I think is great too Let's apply it to These two kind of cornerstone agendas that are being pushed one is global warming and the other is Viruses vaccines kind of thing, you know, what's the waking up? What's the cleaning up? And what's the growing up? Okay, let's say it's waking up to the truth To some degree to some body of facts that we can look at in using like scientific method Reason logic and say wow, it's kind of pretty hard not to Not to say that you know okay, and then cleaning up is Looking at the darkness that might be there and transmuting it So that's an acknowledgement of the darkness and then growing up is about typically maturation personal responsibility And accepting reality as it is not looking at things with rose colored glasses So all these things are somewhat interrelated, but they can be regarded as distinct too There's a fourth one too, which I think we should include here and I included in this new book showing up That wilbur talks about waking up cleaning up growing up and showing up He calls them lines of development meaning that you could be highly elevated in one area But maybe not in the others and he talks about a collect a comprehensive holistic type of evolution That's not just one of those categories, but all of them and we will not Talk about how that might apply or not apply to Ken Wilbur at different times in his life, but that's doesn't matter either because it's exactly Well, this is one of the big challenges too is trying to take the good from what you see in various people that know Human is perfect. You could focus on the negatives exclusively on everyone and then just dismiss everything, but I try to take the The beneficial things that have been helpful to me in my journey so All right, so let's talk about climate and vaccines with regard to these things Let me interject again Sure and and the the reason that this is Particularly relevant to the end of the upside down reset is that as usual mark has provided you an incredible collection of footnotes links references to real stuff real data real waking up stuff And a lot of it relates to climate and a lot of it relates to vaccines So we're not going outside of the buy this book get this book Because it will give you that you can go get a number of other places, but it's in here Okay, so with regard to climate. This is actually the first book where I went deep into it. It's not a topic that I Wasn't it felt like I was an expert in but in my liberty book my third book I did mention Project veritas has undercover footage of the technical director at cnn talking about a number of things But he talked about climate as well. So that was my first With red flag that went up a few years ago and he said look right now. This was April 2021 That's when the footage was taken. He didn't know he was being recorded at the time He said right now covid's big, but that's gonna end And we're being told by the head of the company that we need to focus on climate next because fear sells And climate's got longevity So we're gonna be focusing on ways to keep people in fear. I'm paraphrasing it in my book I've got the exact quotes you can go on project veritas's website and listen to his words saying this sort of thing So This might be actually more of a cleaning up with regard to climate the notion that we're not being told the truth because there is an agenda behind it I think that is cleaning up. So we'll move it over to that category, but it's an awesome example Go back because in the book you also have the waking up just the data. It's like like I was telling Bernardo, you know Cook you think that the netherlands is going to be underwater They've been measuring High tide low tide and it's not hard to do right? I mean it's something that they could do for the last hundred years and do very very effectively They've done it What is that day to tell us Long story short a lot of what we're being told about the imminent catastrophe is is questionable I mean i'm being mild about it there um from from many angles and I think part of the waking up is to realize that we don't have two sides of the debate very often and it parallels consciousness science Where you're allowed to say certain things and if you go outside of the narrative, then you're a pseudoscientist You're a skeptic. You're you're not allowed in so we see dr. Judith curry who was the head of climate science at georgia tech And she started to speak out and I wrote this in my book. She said they basically finished me off And she has a new book coming out, which i'll be interested to read and she's speaking out against the the prevailing Narrative she also references the climate gate emails which point to some of this deception Maybe also this is in cleaning up But that there we're not being told the full story here and they talk about hiding the decline Which many have interpreted to mean hiding the decline in temperatures which would go against the prevailing narrative But I think part of the waking up is to acknowledge that there are dissenting voices out there that are really smart I mean, I also reference steven kuhnen in my book who was In the energy department under obama. He wrote this new book called unsettled He was the provost at caltech a physicist and he wrote this book where he just says look We don't know for sure We can't take this fully catastrophic position because there's Data that counteracts the narrative and the point that he makes which others make Including charles eisenstein. He says look i'm a i've got a phd in mathematics And i'm trying to understand some of this data and I can't even come to a conclusion on some of it And that's what kuhnen points to as well that some of this stuff is really sophisticated And what we hear from the media or from even some of the experts is like their interpretation of a summary report of something And actually getting to that core data of the real stuff It's multiple steps removed from where the public is So I think waking up to that fact is really critical for just an everyday person looking at this very important issue That is being talked about everywhere. It's presented to us as Incontroverable fact that unless we do x y and z we know that we're headed for mass extinction that that's the catastrophic narrative that we're getting and That might not be true to put it mildly Yeah, and and I'd almost take a different Cut at it because the first Problem with the data that you're alluding to is you got to go what data there's a lot of data out there Which data am I looking at and the data in this case? Is the data that would suggest that humans are I think a catastrophic impact on The warming of the planet So that's number one and that by taking certain policy measures. We can reverse that I think anyone who breaks that down and pursues that will come out to the conclusion that that's just Has not been proven and if anything the evidence is stronger for the counter argument All's you would have to do to kind of falsify that is to say the null hypothesis is there isn't substantial evidence That humans are having a catastrophic impact on glott. I'm at warming because let's not forget That's what this whole thing is about So that that's number one and then number two. I mean you can kind of take it too But I always you know, jude jude the curry who By the way, you know, I just mentioned the sea level rise, which is all you really have to look at Right the ice and the glass melts and the sea level rises. You can look at one one factor Are the sea levels rising if they are then there's warming if there's not then they're not and she's done the most thorough scientific analysis of that just a couple of years ago and her conclusion published peer reviewed Very highly regarded climatologists is no there just isn't any evidence for it So the other thing that I I see she just gets Flustered and agitated about is that and again you can this is data. You can just go track this down for yourself If we implemented all the policies that the Schwabians and all the globalists want There is no evidence that that would lead to any significant reduction in What is already a minuscule contribution to global warming Yeah, you you broke it down into two great categories human impact and policy and these are assumptions that are often taken for granted The the extent of human impact on the climate number one and two that We have policies because we're so enlightened that will correct this So the first one with regard to human impact is just There are so many variables involved and you all you don't you don't hear them talked about I mean climate is a very complex thing and I do talk about this in the book the inadequacy of models as well Going back to the meteorologist Lorenz. Oh, this goes back to chaos theory He altered his model by a decimal point and he got a wildly different Outcome by having one thing off by a decimal So climate is extremely complex and when you have all these variables and models What if you just changed one by a little bit you could end up with a very different result So that's always important to keep in mind. It's just not talked about there's this to use michael schellenberger's terminology He wrote a book called apocalypse never he was um more on the let's call it the the pro human impact climate change He was more mainstream and he switched Since then he says it's false precision That we have with these models So that's important to keep in mind, but it all that also applies to the policy issues Because we're making projections about the future with a very complex thing Climate how many I mean there's the sun. There's geothermal stuff There are lots of things being put in the atmosphere whether it's co2 and other things There's just a million variables you could come up with and who knows on a metaphysical level how all this works too I always think about that the really invisible stuff that we don't even understand We don't understand dark matter and dark energy But my point is there are a lot of variables that aren't talked about so that goes with making projections about the future We saw this in covet There were projections of this many people are going to die Imperial college london and policy was made based off of those predict predictions and assumptions and they turned out to be very wrong They overshot the number of deaths And what happened liberties were taken away people's busy livelihoods were altered Mental health was affected based on the predictions of a few people Yeah, and the other place that I thought you were going to go that I don't hear a lot of people talk about And I think you were going there is that there are all sorts of variables Associated with the policies and the implementation of those policies So you can draw up on a piece of paper how you will roll this out So then how how then do we move to cleaning up because you already already dropped a couple of them on there because For people like you and I who have been through it a lot of times you jump right to the cleanup big like How could they do climate gait and how do people not just See this because sometimes they'll reverse climate gait and they'll say that didn't really happen If you if you talk to chat gpt and ask my climate gate they go Oh, they were all that none of them did anything if you really investigate it you find the opposite is true It was one of the the most egregious examples of scientific fraud that that we kind of know of but It's sort of like the twitter files People are saying oh, it's a non-issue the media isn't covering it and it's just explicit Government collusion to shut down narratives and to steer information So it's it's kind of the same playbook that we're seeing over and over again in different areas And that's where I to me is just the pattern recognition comes in as someone who's not a climate scientist per se But i've seen this movie before in other areas. So my red flags the red flags are all over the place with this and And then you look so now in the cleaning up we see what the cnn technical director said very explicitly So he wasn't making a statement about climate science itself. He was talking about how it would be used It's sort of like covet. Did people die? Did people get sick? Was there tragedy from it? Absolutely But there seems to be this pattern where it's like if there is a problem Then the authorities therefore has had the ability to do whatever they want because they're this problem exists So that to me is where climate seems to be heading where okay, we've got this big crisis global crisis We therefore get to tell you everything you're going to be doing in terms of where how you're uh your transportation What you eat and so forth So the cleaning up is to acknowledge all of that that that Crisis or the perception of crisis can be weaponized and has been weaponized historically And to acknowledge that darkness exists within all the stuff. It's not just the benevolence of oh, we want to save the planet We're all interconnected. Look at all the biodiversity loss. I mean, that's the kind of argumentation you hear Um, we're we're spiritual people therefore We got to help the environment and these people are saying we got to do this to help the climate And therefore we're going to do it. It misses the cleaning up to me. It misses the potential deception Yeah, and I think it also kind of naturally flows into the growing up Because I think the growing up is all about the deception all about the metaphysical all about How that darkness is entering into not just our world but Us into our thoughts into our actions into what we do That's how I understand growing up. But do you agree? Yeah, and it's acknowledging That the world doesn't work in such a pleasant way as we might like it to be That's this this kind of deception exists and we have to accept it even though many people are very good That that other that other people who are not you would want to deceive you And there is a psychological incentive to not wanting to believe those things because it's much more comforting to think We live in a in a world where no one's going to do that for these major global issues No, they wouldn't deceive us. That would be horrific To me, that's the growing up with this I think the other part of growing up with this is something you talked about before and Again, I so love and respect the way you interweave these things together It's about the personal growing up and the personal realizing that that shadow is my shadow I can't just project it out on the world and all these evil people in Davos. It's it's me It's when I sit alone Why can't I be happy and still and why can't the lightness always shine through from me? And why do I do things that I don't think are positive in the world and is that You know Is that in a small way? What's going on on this larger scale too and and only when we're able to really look at that look at that shadow Do I think we even have a chance of growing up? What do you think? Well, I do think it starts with the individual and maybe this goes back to our earlier discussion about the ability to discern Once you've started to clean it up on your own, then you can proceed the deception a bit better On a collective level the cleaning up that's more challenging because we can't control other people's behavior We you have to want to do it yourself I think what we're doing by having this conversation and what you do on your podcast and what I try to do with my books is to Give people more information in ways of thinking about things so that they might be more inclined to want to clean up And they might be more inclined to want to look at things So but it starts with you it starts with the individual You clean yourself up and then I think As a byproduct then you end up positively impacting others And and do you wind up growing up or do you have to make that Explit growing up because one of the things I respect about Wilbur the little bit that I've kind of read into this is that He really gets to the growing up part and and I think he kind of stresses as I remember it is This is the hard part really for a lot of us. We can kind of get through the other two But we get to okay now because it's about change right What do you think? Yeah? Well personal responsibility Versus a victim hood that's maybe the crux of it of growing up and That takes energy it takes a willingness to go there in a in a way that might be uncomfortable To think that you are the one that is ultimately responsible rather than mommy and daddy government or the experts the technocrats Who are going to tell us what to do? So that's where like we talked about last time this idea of toughness and strength Is really critical Because if not then you're just going to go with wherever society is leading you and just assuming that everyone's going to take care of you And that Historically would tell you is is not a good assumption to make and then let's finally talk about showing up because I think showing up has an interesting inner play with growing up because We can grow up and then decide that okay, so I got my shirt together. I don't need anybody else Yep And that's why I included this with regard to not only climate but the great reset generally Is you could be you could do you're waking up cleaning up and growing up and say all right. I'm good. I'm enlightened I'm a comprehensively evolved person So I'm just going to be passive And I don't Resonate with that at all the more I look at this and I I'm so sensitized to this Going back to my earlier point in the non-dual community. I see this tendency of it's all one That's the ultimate reality and therefore I can just do nothing and I'm going to repeat a story I can't remember if I told you on a past interview This is this was a pivotal point for me in my own development David Hawkins talking about raman and maharshi raman and maharshi said the world that we see doesn't exist And hawkins said yep That's right at some level of reality and and raman and maharshi is operating at that level of reality But hawkins who himself Allegedly got to those sorts of states. He came back into the world He said because there's a lot of suffering in the world Even though maharshi is correct the people who are suffering are not operating at that level that there is no world To them the suffering is very much real So hawkins said it would be therefore be a spiritual error to ignore the suffering of others In spite of the fact that we exist within a non-dual reality and to me that points toward The idea that we need to be active To try to alleviate the suffering of others and that's where showing up comes into play It could manifest in many different ways. It can manifest in terms of presenting information It can manifest in terms of caring for other people, but in terms of the great reset I think it's about resistance. It's about actively saying no and setting boundaries to things that we perceive to be evil and I'll I'll quote Seth Dillon who is the head of babel on b which is a satirical news outlet And it's pretty funny because a lot of their headlines from a few years ago Which were satirical have turned out to be real headlines in the modern era and he makes the point that Some i'm paraphrasing him. Some people think that we are Becoming a better society because we're more tolerant of of things and we're not making fun of of things that are happening He goes, I think we're more depraved than ever because we're not standing up to things that we should be standing up to So it's this very tricky notion of tolerance and going back to the weaponization of compassion Sometimes we shouldn't be tolerant. We shouldn't be tolerant of things that are evil And someone with a very benevolent intent who wants to go for the common good. We're all interconnected It's all about love. It's all tolerance all the time But sometimes we need to set boundaries and that's where showing up comes in I love that mark I take two other directions on that as we start to wrap it up is The other thing that resonates with me is the complexity of being An american being usa usa because what we're striving for here is Has been laid out before has been has been taught to us in our lessons from our history of our country, which is If you don't talk up if you don't speak up it doesn't get done It is your job to keep this republic in line Because we realize how tenuous this whole thing is and it does it is held together with you know Chewing gum and wax or whatever the oldy kind of expression is it's our job It's our job to talk about it and do it and the other thing I match that with is is a story that I've repeated You know, I don't know that you repeated that lesson. I think I heard that one before from you But it's the sir I like to tell about amma the hugging saint from india, you know and she goes and she does all these incredible gatherings where you know people can come and people Get they get a hug, you know So I've I went to one of them in LA and there's a thousand people 2000 I think lined up to get a hug and how this woman this old woman sits there and hugs for 18 hours a day I don't know but she she does and it's an incredible experience for a lot of people But one day one of her devotees comes up and goes Am I I don't understand you you say uh that you're not about this world And yet everything you're doing, you know, you're doing all this work You're digging latrines in india. You're unending and the work that you're doing. Why are you doing so much work for this world? and she says she's Told to say we're told that she says world What world? And to me that is the that there's an aspect of that that I would like I would like to get to in terms of my spiritual understanding or I don't have to judge Other people in order to judge the right action that I need to take at the time Yes So two things one on judging other people And let's just let's just say with regard to the fact that we seem to be living in Like a bifurcated society where some people see what reality other people see another reality Some people say this is good and other people will see the same thing and say it's evil The challenge there it's not as much from a judgmental perspective that I talk about it I talk about it from a practical perspective It is difficult to coexist and even have conversations When you're not looking at the same things you're you're just talking past each other constantly So there are practical issues with that and you can still have compassion for people Who might not see something that you see that's fine But it doesn't remove the fact that it's challenging And with regard to the I'm a story I think that sums up the attitude that I would like to get to as well Which is really one of non attachment to outcomes It's the idea that She's doing her duty to the best of her ability But whatever happens to the world is out of her control And that I've been asked this a few times actually like mark What do you think is going to happen with the great reset? And first of all, I don't know what's going to happen, but In some regard I don't Hair And that could be taken the wrong way. I do care. I hope it turns into a goes in a positive direction But that's not where my focus is my focus is on is on what I can do and whether I'm doing the best job I can the outcome of that is beyond my control So it's sort of like we just do the best that we can and I Harken this back to some of like my tennis days as a competitive athlete If I have a certain strategy Let's say I'm going to hit an approach shot to the guy's backhand And I know that if I do that nine out of ten times I'm going to get the volley that I want and I'm going to win the point But one out of ten times I might lose but I'm going to do it because it's the right thing And that's the right strategy at that point So you've got to be Unattached to what the result is in the end But it's different and Hawkins makes this very important distinction the different distinction between non attachment and detachment Detachment is about just literally not caring and that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about caring but not Not being attached to what the ultimate result is there's a real nuance to that that I think becomes clear I love your example of the competitive sports analogy because I think it We do hear that again and again from athletes, particularly very elite athletes that are able to detach from the ultimate outcome By focusing really really intensely on the more immediate outcome of you'll hear this in football all the time It's like have that short memory Just do my assignment on this play and then when that plays over the next play Just do what I'm supposed to do on this play and if everyone in the team does that We're often than that we win It's a compartmentalization. It's it's both it's a kind of a paradox at one level There's a compartmentalization of what's happening in the present time in this immediate task in front of me But it's also while holding the bigger picture in mind of the broader objective That it's fitting into so we could take this interview as an example Both of us probably have a vision for our lives to some degree, but right now we're focused on this conversation That's our focus, but it's within the context of something bigger Yes, it is So this has been awesome Let me try and turn it into something that people can Understand to some extent. I think they will they've listened so far Yeah, I think they're they're in in for a penny in for a pound Again, the book you're going to want to check out you want to check out several of his books The three that I have up here are particularly great in my opinion and end to upside down thinking All about Kind of how we got derailed on the consciousness thing, which we've talked a lot about on this show, but mark has a very He just has a very great way of breaking things down and making them understandable and communicating in a way that You'll get and you'll feel like oh, this is something I can pass along to somebody else And then the other book an end to upside down contact again fantastic and where he's willing to go with the UFO et experience is just refreshing because Few people are are willing to go all the way there and tie it into all these other things that we're talking about in terms of spirituality and And what it means in a bigger sense and then finally the book we talked about today and end to the upside down reset So mark it's it's been great having you on tell us what else we should know as we Say goodbye. Well, Alex. I want to thank you for all of your ongoing support. I really truly appreciated and thank you for having me on in terms of Like what's next? Well, first of all where your viewers and listeners can find me my website is mark gober.com m a r k g o b e r dot com And I have five books out there all on amazon kindle hard copy and audible for all five And I have a podcast series called where is my mind which is on the idea that consciousness does not come from the brain So that's what I've been working on for the last It started in 2016 and now here we are I don't know what's next and I feel like I say that every time we talk because I literally don't I didn't know I was going to write this new book on the great reset when we talked not long ago So I'm just trying to follow where the breadcrumbs lead me I'm going to repeat what I've said multiple times before I'm I'm stuck on this topic of these like Different paradigm shifts that people are in and what are the psychological barriers to those various paradigm shifts because that's If we're thinking about outcomes now, maybe that's where the outcome is gonna That's where the outcome is going to go one way or the other is whether people can break through those paradigm shifts And and understanding why people are not and trying to get to the solution to rectify it Great mark great. All right. Thanks again. It's been awesome. Thanks, alex Thanks again to mark gober for joining me today on skeptico the one question it up from this interview Glass half empty glass half full How bad is this insane wef globalist stuff and in particular as this show points out How bad is it through the lens of All the other bad stuff we've lived through and have to embrace as being part of our history Because I think that's the lens that I wound up kind of coming back to is like Are we always just going to point at this timeline now and pretend like All this other stuff hasn't happened and that we don't have to kind of contextualize what's going on in this larger geopolitical world Unfortunately, I kind of think we do but let's hear what you have to say That'll do it for this one until next time. Take care. Bye for now