 Good morning or good afternoon, depending on the time that you might be joining us either live or recording. We are so glad that you're here for another episode of the nonprofit show. Today we have back with us one of our favorites, Katie Warnick and Katie is the CEO of staffing boutique. She has been with us from the very, very beginning. We are so grateful to have her here. Today she's talking about retaining staff and strategies that you and your organization will want to pay attention to. So, stay with us as we dive deep on this retention strategy. Katie, we are so glad to have you back. Julia Patrick is here, CEO of the American nonprofit Academy, and I'm Jarrett Ransom, her nonprofit nerd, but yours too, CEO of the Raven Group. We're so very honored day in and day out to remain live on air. We've produced almost 800 episodes and a lot of gratitude and thankfulness goes out to our presenting sponsors. So thank you to our friends at Bloomerang American nonprofit Academy, fundraising Academy at National University, nonprofit thought leader, your part-time controller, staffing boutique, again where Katie joins us from, nonprofit nerd, and the nonprofit tech talk. These companies are here day in, day out, regardless of the time zone to help support you and your mission. So do us a favor, do them a favor, do yourself a favor and check them out because they are good people that are leaning into your mission. And hey, I mentioned the episodes that we have. I can't imagine that all of you have joined us for every single one. So if you'd like to go back and listen to any of them, we have such amazing content. You can find it on Roku, YouTube, Amazon Fire TV, Vimeo, as well as podcast. And one of the things we're talking about Julia with our guest today, Katie, was about how the landscape of these conversations have truly changed over the last three, almost four years. And these conversations are also the ones that we've had with you, Katie, the landscape of our workforce, how that shifted. So we're really excited to have you as a guest today. Again, those of you watching and listening, Katie Warnick is here, CEO, as well as founder of Staffing Boutique. Welcome back. Thanks. Thanks for having me again. You know, Katie, what Jared said is quite remarkable because when we first met you, it was the very, very beginning of the pandemic. You called my office, I picked it up at the time thinking who the hell is calling me because everyone was shut down. You and I started talking and it was just like you were like the sister to Jared and I. So fascinating, but our conversations have run the gambit from, oh my God, everything's shutting down. Don't lose your job. Be the best worker you can because you'll never get a job to what we're talking about today. And that is, they're not enough people working or fully employed. So as nonprofits, what do we do to keep our staffs happy because we don't just have people lining up out the door wanting to join our teams. And so I'm fascinated by this conversation. And I think the thing that's, it runs, you know, down the field for me is to say what's the cost of keeping an employee versus finding an employee. Talk about the pocketbook, maybe it brings, it brings the argument more to this. Yeah, so, I mean, I think that we can anecdotally share all of our experiences with that sort of question, right? So I was like, maybe there are some numbers out there. So obviously I did Google that. So I wanted to see what Shurm reported that on average it costs a company about six to nine months of an employee's salary to replace him or her. So for an employee making about $60,000 a year, that's about $30,000 to $45,000 in costs. So we know what a nightmare is to replace staff. Working with the nonprofit sector my whole career, you know, I've always said one thing. And, you know, let me actually back up. I always say, people, when I say I do staffing for nonprofits, they're like, what, like they don't think that there's money to be made there or it's an industry. So the thing is, is that, you know, I'm not working with, you know, JP Morgan or a hospital or something like that. So it's not like I'm ever going to have that constant need. So I can, I can make sales calls whenever I want, but the nonprofits will always say, Oh, we're a nonprofit, we don't have money for staffing firms. But you know when they use me, they use me when their database administrator quits on a Friday and doesn't give notice, you know, and now it's like, no one else knows how to use the database. What do we do or the same thing with special events or grant writing. So I've seen those numbers play out time and time again. So the idea of staff retention making your staff happy is just so important like let's not even think about the numbers and the cost, just the general day to day operations that need to happen if you're a full functioning you know nonprofit or development operation like what are you doing you know who is even doing that work. You get backlog, it becomes a huge, huge mess acknowledgement letters are going out in those situations, you know, dollars are left on the table. So it kind of just spirals and spirals beyond the dollar amount right. You know, it's interesting Katie that you mentioned, you know, what I would see is like that crisis of it's a Friday the database person left, what are we going to do on Monday. I'm actually seeing less and less cross training between departments and between employees and I'm curious if you're also seeing and hearing that. And then I would like to kind of put the finger that I have a feeling it's because most companies are remote. And so they're not taking the time in this remote scenario to provide that cross training opportunity. Any any suggestions or insights on that that you've seen. That's interesting that point that you're bringing up, you know, I guess that is something that I have seen maybe over the past six to nine months. I'm, I'm saying this out loud to you and I haven't articulated it before but I'm starting to think that you know that whole like quite quitting thing is actually happening with like back office stuff. There could very well be a database manager somewhere at any nonprofit that's, you know, working from home, and they're just like really half doing their job essentially so it doesn't become such a permanent issue until they actually do resign. Right, it's way more easier than easier for them to just skate by the database administrator job is a job that has kind of stayed remote in most cases. And it's critical when it comes to, you know, documenting the institutional knowledge, getting out acknowledgement letters or any kind of communication, you know to the supporters and the stakeholders. So you bring up a really good point about that cost and so you tell us again what the shirm statistic was. So employees making 60,000 a year. It's basically going to cost the organization about 30 to 45,000. Okay, yeah, and that's not even getting them like up to speed. That's just right, Katie that's just getting him in the door getting the badges made telling him where to park, what bus line to take whatever right I mean right right. And that's, that's not even getting them really comfortable with the culture and the mission vision and values necessarily of the entire organization because that takes a while. It takes a long time for a nonprofit I feel like it takes a year because I just feel like even in New York or maybe maybe you don't see as much where you are but even if people are in the office just that culture, you know organizations are in very small offices they don't have a lot of space. So the idea that you know there could be 10 people in you know maybe a 1500 square foot office happens so you need to make sure that you really like the people that you're working with. Right, super important. Well, let's talk about how we can get them to stay what about those benefits and perks. I feel like this is also changed within the workforce over the last few years, you know, like, what really are staff looking for by way of benefits and perks that keep them there at their job. I think that we have talked about this over the past two years right so there's other episodes that you could probably go back to. I think that the one thing that I'm starting to realize with talking to my candidates and then also talking to my clients is what does work life balance look like for each employee. Okay, okay. And I think that you really, really need to communicate well with your staff as you're bringing them on and finding that information out. And that's going to sort of, you know, what can I say, sort of all of branch out what you need to do and accommodate for each employee. And at the end of the day, maybe sitting down with HR and the executive director, whoever it is and saying, where can we be flexible and sort of having a chart of where we can give and take because let's be honest, it's not going to be dollars in nonprofits. You know, so what is set and what is budgeted for, you know, a certain salary is going to be it so it's not going to be that so it's going to be work life balance we use that phrase all the time. I've always said it, you know, since I started my career back in oh five like, I'm a work life balance person. But for me, work life balance was being able to leave at five o'clock on the dot, leaving going to the gym because I worked at the gym part time at night teaching my classes. That was work life balance to me I was never going to be the employee that stayed late. The first thing for me at the time was, you know, I used to commute to New York I lived in Jersey I worked at gyms in Jersey was being able to work at our Jersey office two days a week this is all before I had my own company. Dana works for me, you know, Dana is an actress, you know, she's an actress like she's busy she's booking gigs. When I brought Dana on pre COVID you know the agreement was like, I don't care what you do I don't care if you have an audition or a voice over at noon on a Tuesday. As long as you get the work done. Yeah, it's done. That's work life balance for Dana. I have an employee that works for me as well that has her own consulting specializing in DI. So work life balance for her is being able to take on her projects and still work for me. You know, that's work life balance to my employees. But you know, again, I'm just telling you mine, you know, there are some people that want to be able to go to an office because they want to get away from their kids. Right. So that's work. So again, always having that communication going on with your employees and understanding what that looks like for them. And then on top of that, on top of work life balance. Title, you know that's a big thing in nonprofits and it's still a big thing, you know, knowing that someone that's a major gift officer now makes a certain salary maybe isn't going to get another 15,000 in a raise or bonus, but what is a better title for them to set them up for success as they choose to grow in their career. So for some people in nonprofits, it could just be title. Besides that, you know, employee benefits, tuition reimbursement and then another huge one that I'm seeing trending in 2023 is just professional development. I think that did sort of fall by the wayside a little bit. You know, when COVID hit, you know, there weren't events there were in conferences. So really keeping in mind what sort of professional development is specific to your department, the employees what they're interested in and really opening up conversations for that and promoting it not waiting for an employee to come to you about it but having a professional development thing maybe that happens quarterly or whatever it is. Obviously, paying for that and making making it exciting, you know, promoting it was in the organization. I mean those are me just rambling. But I think that those are really important ones. I'm curious Katie have you seen the the desire for unlimited PTO. I've heard both debates, you know, of this, but I'm really curious if you're seeing that or hearing that with your candidates. I've heard of it like it hasn't come up and I think that it hasn't come up just because of the flexibility of many of my candidates still working from home. I think that it's kind of a non issue right now. However, you know, keeping in mind, I do work with charter schools because charter schools operate as nonprofits, and I do classroom staff and classroom staff want to work a four day week or want to be remote and I'm like, that's not going to happen like you have to switch professions, but you know it's something that does come up where you know some charter schools are saying on Fridays, like once a month on Fridays, staff is, you know, out basically and allowing a four day work week and like circulating their teaching staff to accommodate that one day off for some of the teachers and they're like kind of making groups. It's a lot of my bigger charter schools but I do think that it's forward thinking. It kind of just gives the random working teacher a day off to run errands and and that's a huge deal, you know, or, you know, go to the doctor's office so that they're not calling out last minute at least it's a planned day where they can kind of take care of some of those things. I think that that's huge. I don't know if I answered your question, but that's another another perk. No, I think that's interesting forward thinking the innovation. I just heard on the news yesterday a, you know, barely anything Monday. It's like this is a movement that's happening to take Monday as a really light or light or, you know, kind of a work day so really hearing how organizations in all sizes and industries really are shifting and shaping I think is, it's so interesting to me. I love that because you know to be honest with you Mondays are always like my slowest day. I think that I don't know if it's the nonprofit culture that I'm accustomed to, but like my phone never rings on a Monday, you know, nothing is ever going on, nothing I'm not a superstar right, but I swear nonprofits Friday at three o'clock it's like everything goes wrong, like my phone does I, I a lot for like okay Friday afternoon I have to work, you know a lot of times Friday night I'm online until like nine o'clock because I think that's so many people put staffing and, and employee issues to the end of the week and then like, Oh crap I have to call Katie, you know, so it's one of those things that is, but anyway, I love, I love a slow Monday. I'll push it for that. Katie along those lines, are you seeing in general the, the discussion or embracing that four day work week. We've been hearing about it more and more. I don't really know anybody who's doing it outside of the medical field where they seem to like take those like longer days, early appointments and just shift everything. But are you seeing that. Not at all. Yeah. No, I haven't seen it all it's a lot of talk it's a lot of trending articles on LinkedIn. It's just, I haven't seen anyone implement it yet. Yeah, it's really it's like, yeah, I think you're right. It's a lot of chat, but not much action. I want to get another piece of advice from you and this is something that you really brought up early in the game and that is the value of the state interview, and not just waiting until that Friday afternoon or somebody's like, I'm leaving and I've never coming back. Kind of, you know, the end of the week and they're forced out. Talk to us about this day. Well, let's talk about a stay interview, first of all, so a stay interview is something completely different than an employee review. Obviously, you're not doing stay interviews, probably within the first year of an employee. I think that they're really meant for employees that you're like, wow, these people are good. I want to keep them on. So now that you realize what a value they are to your organization you want to schedule them maybe twice a year, maybe once a year but again they're completely different than a review. They should be done by the hiring manager the person that they're working for, not by HR. Okay, should be just one on one, more of a casual type of setting, and sort of having a template for the questions that you are going to ask, but allow it to be So, you know, some common questions very easy to say but you know what is the one first part about your job that you absolutely love. What's the one part about your job that you absolutely hate when you read doing those sorts of things and just sort of, again, what does something mean to your employees specifically, right? What's work-life balance mean at that point for that employee? Do they have a sick child at home? Are they taking care of a parent? Are they pursuing another degree? And that way you're kind of always doing a check-in with those employees. You know, I don't like to use this phrase, but it's kind of like when you hear about what's a successful marriage, you keep dating your partner, you want to date your employee, you want to do that dance with them, and make sure that you're constantly having open communication, obviously keeping it professional and knowing that at the end of the day, the best interest is for the organization and the department, but accommodating their specific needs to make them function at a high success rate. So what are we doing there? Can you have all the interviews are huge. That's important. How often do you have these interviews? I think that twice a year is a great idea. Okay. Okay. And I love that you asked what does, you know, work-life balance mean for you now because you're right. It does change and it can change even at the top of a hat, you know, so to have that constant exchange and conversation I think is very critical and you brought up two big things, right? Like, do you have family matters to take care of, be it your own children or maybe many of us are in seasons of parenting or parents and what that might look like and I think really looking at that from all perspectives and angles is very thoughtful. I appreciate it. Yeah. Or again, pursuing degrees. You know, we do a lot of work with arts organizations here in New York and, you know, or I could use this both ways, but essentially, you know, people are just working in nonprofits while they're pursuing their degree, or we have a crowd of actual performers and professionals that have worked so much in theater that they've picked up their own grant writing skills, special events, auction stuff like they've sort of fell into development in a sense. And so we're almost like accommodating that specific demographic as well. Their work-life balance is completely different. You know, we have a lot of opera singers that are grant writers that are on the road for six months. You know, so kind of again, it's just I'm giving you examples here in New York City, but everyone is different and knowing that and knowing your Now, you bring up something. Everyone is different. How do you in an organization make things look equitable when you might have to kind of work with the individual people on their situation? I mean, somebody who has small children has a different lifestyle and life cycle than somebody who's maybe never had children or their children are older. How do you make it seem like it's equitable so that you keep, you know, the family happy, as they say? That's a good question, but that again is sitting down with the employees and knowing what works for them and sort of what working out with the executive director and HR and how to do that specific to your organization. Our nonprofits range in so many different areas, so many different demographics, so many different missions, like what works for your organization. It's really hard to say this, this is the boilerplate do it here. You know, it just it doesn't work. You know, maybe it works in corporate but it doesn't work in nonprofits and I think that we, we all know that we're sort of like in this unique little fishbowl in the nonprofit world. Yeah, kind of that case by case, which is why those stay interviews those touch points are really just so important. Of course our time flies by quickly Katie but we have this one question, as Julia coined it earlier with you is really Katie's crystal ball. So looking forward, can you look into that Katie's crystal ball and tell us what you're seeing for the candidate market for the remaining of the year. There will still be jobs, there's still a lot of jobs out there. I think that if you have a good skill now is still a good time to move I wouldn't say to anyone not not to move because they're scared of whatever's happening now. I think it will stay like that until our next fiscal year, you know, so a lot of my nonprofits are running on a fiscal year not calendar year. So I think we're going to be grooving, you know, for the next what three four months, and maybe I'll say something different on the next time. But that's what I think. Yeah, good. No, I think you see it I think there's, I think it's fascinating to get your perspective on these things because, you know, Jared and what we see a lot of it's like happening now and it's the here. What's going on in the second, but with your work, you see these cycles it seems to me that grow and change and, and so it's really a great thing to get that feedback from you to kind of see, because it has changed. I mean, since we first met you, it has a lot has changed. No, a lot has changed. The other thing we've talked about to is really the retirement of many leaders that stayed when they might have had a succession plan pre COVID, but then they said, Okay, I'll, I'll hang on. I'm absolutely here. You know, we're not going to let the sink. The ship sink. And, and so you know we've talked a little bit about that retirement of executives founders that are ready to move to their next chapter. And you're right there's there's been a lot of adjustments and it's been interesting to see. Well, I think it was, I think it was three years ago that we met right. Yeah, it was right around three right around that time and you were giving us like the breaking news from, you know, new York from all of the, the various changes that were happening and happening so quickly so it's been really cool to to connect with you on such a regular basis Katie, you and your team are phenomenal I know that we have many viewers and listeners that joined to hear what's happening in the workforce and to, you know, be in the know for this so thank you for joining us today. Yeah, thanks for having me it's been quite an adventure the best of three years. It has been well everybody Katie Warnick CEO and founder of staffing boutique staffing boutique.org check them out it's a really interesting lens to evaluate our nonprofits I mean we're only as good as our people in so many ways and so we don't start at that foundational thought then we tend to have more and more problems. And so it's very very to me fascinating to actually have somebody that we can rely upon who understands our sector on top of the HR issue and employment so Katie it's just been great and we're so appreciative for your time again staffing boutique and Katie's on with us just about every month or so. So don't miss her upcoming episodes. Again, I'm Julia Patrick CEO of the American nonprofit Academy been joined today by the nonprofit nerd herself. We are so fortunate to have the continued support. As Jared mentioned, we're finishing up our third year, moving into our fourth year, and those folks that have come along with us include Blumerang American nonprofit Academy, your part time nonprofit thought leader fundraising Academy at National University, staffing boutique nonprofit nerd and nonprofit tech talk. These are the folks that are with us day in and day out, making a difference across this country of ours. So everybody, as we end every episode we want to remind ourselves our viewers our sponsors and Katie Warnick, especially just stay well, so you can do well we'll see you back here tomorrow everyone thank you ladies.