 I would like to welcome you all to the first day of our virtual MA&D Refresher training. And I would like to introduce myself, my name is Katta Wagner, for those of you who don't know me, I work in the Forest Team of the International Institute for Environmental Development or IID, and IID is an implementing partner of the Forest and Farm Facility. And in this larger team, we are responsible for knowledge management, and we also offer a range of training courses, such as market analysis and development MA&D. So I will be your main trainer for these four days, but luckily, I also have Isabelle LeCoup and Jacques LeCoup joining me as co-trainers. And Isabelle and Jacques have, of course, been the developers and authors of the MA&D toolkit, so they're going to be a fantastic resource for us with their many decades of experience implementing MA&D. And then we also have my IID colleague, Ellie joining us, who's responsible for the logistics of the Zoom meeting and, of course, our interpreters. Now, unfortunately, we don't really have time to do a whole round of interpretations for all of the participants. So in this case, I would really like to ask you to introduce yourself to the other participants in the chat. So we have staff members from Forest and Farm producer organizations, and we also have some FFF facilitators joining us as observers and Johnny Zapata, and hopefully also later, Sophie Thaus, who are the FFF country coaches. So warm welcome to you all. I'm glad that you could all join us. So I just would like to state briefly what the objectives are of this training. So we've invited staff members from second and third tier Forest and Farm producer organizations who have already gone through MA&D training and have ideally used it either to train field facilitators or as field facilitators themselves. So the objective of this refresher training is for you to be able to fully implement MA&D training of MA&D facilitators or MA&D trainers in your own contexts. And this training is really also an excellent opportunity for you who have already used MA&D to ask questions that might have come up while you've worked with MA&D and to get clarifications on uncertainties you might still have. And you also have this long-term hope that through this training, FFF staff will be able to build their capacities to fully institutionalize MA&D capacity training within their own organization. So eventually, IID does not have to run MA&D trainings anymore and you can do it within your own contexts. And we have also invited the FFF facilitators because we see that they have an important role in supporting you in implementing MA&D. So they need to be aware of the key principles and potential pitfalls in supporting you in this. And so the format of this training is going to be very participatory. And we have a very short period of time, but we will try to cover all four MA&D phases. We'll go through all of the steps, but want to have as much participation as possible. So usually, the way it will work is at each step or in each phase, I'm going to call on you to recount your experiences in implementing those particular steps or phases. And then we'll also ask the group to comment or make suggestions, ask questions. So we really want to hear from you as much as possible and to have a discussion around each step. And then at the end, I will also put up some slides to sort of sum up the key points that we think are important. And then there's going to be plenty of time for you to ask questions throughout, but also at the end of each day, we have set aside some time where you have the opportunity to ask for clarifications. So the agenda for today is we've already gone through the introductions. And we are then going to talk about some of the fundamental principles of MA&D. We will today also cover the preliminary phase, which is a crucially important phase where background research and planning activities need to happen before MA&D is implemented. And then we will talk about phase one, and we'll try to cover the whole phase one, which is the phase where the existing situation is assessed by the potential entrepreneurs. And this is just an overview of the agenda for the coming days. Tomorrow we will try to cover all three steps of phase two. Phase two is of course where the potential entrepreneurs carry out the surveys to select products and identify enterprise ideas. On day three, we will cover the first two steps of phase three. And that's phase three is where the entrepreneurs prepare their enterprise development plan. And then on day four, we will cover the last step of phase three and the whole of phase four, which is where the entrepreneurs are supported during this data phase of their enterprises. And at the end of day four, we have set aside a bigger chunk of time to clarify any remaining questions. So as you know, we have conducted a very brief training survey, pre-training survey, to try to understand what the constituency is going to be of this training and where you might have had some problems, what are the topics that would be worthwhile covering. So I just wanted to here present quickly the outcome of this survey or the results. We've found that you're quite a heterogeneous group. Some of you have had lots of ME&D training and lots of experience working with it. Some of you have been trained more recently and there are also various degrees to which you have had the chance to participate in ME&D training. And in these surveys, you have expressed some problems in implementing ME&D. And I've just put here a quick summary of some of the things that more than one person has mentioned. So we saw that you've mentioned that there was sometimes a lack of resources and time in implementing ME&D appropriately. You've also mentioned that some entrepreneurs might still be lacking confidence in conducting their activities. You have also mentioned that some entrepreneurs had difficulty obtaining data and information to set up their enterprise development plans. And you've also mentioned that there might have been some issues in how participants were selected for the training. And you've also sent in some enterprise development plans. Thank you so much for this. We went through them and just wanted to sort of see whether there are any small gaps that we might be able to address in the training. And what we've seen is that there might be some calculations incomplete and some information missing. So we're going to talk about this on day three when we talk about the development of enterprise development plans. Okay. So this is just a quick introduction and background. And now we'd like to talk with you about the fundamental principles of ME&D. And this is where I would like to ask you. Sorry. Sorry, yes. First of all, I wanted to ask you, why do you think, why would one want to build ME&D capacities? What would be the reason for using ME&D or for developing skills in training for ME&D? So I'm just going to stop sharing now. And I would really like us to have a quick conversation around this. So who would like to raise their hand and tell us why they think we would want to build capacities for ME&D? And you're welcome to speak in French if that is your preferred language or in English we have interpretation. Good morning, everyone. Thank you for the floor. In fact, we need the ME&D in order for us to develop the entrepreneurship culture within the company members who are the key actors. So this ME&D will allow them to better know their market and express their needs in terms of funding. So to develop this line that they have chosen. Thank you. Is there someone else who would like to comment on what Bohangi said or perhaps raise another point on why we might want to develop ME&D capacities? We cannot hear you yet, Joffrey. You might need to. Good morning. I think it is important because from where I'm sitting, we look at it as a way of building the sustainability of farmer groups, sustainability in terms of groups raising their own resources and also being aware of the many market opportunities that they are operating in and so that they can also be able to identify these opportunities and also come up with the plans on how to really maximize in terms of the benefits that they want to get. But I think overall is a way of also helping the farmer groups to look at their operations, to look at their activities as a form of business and not just activities per se. Thank you. Wonderful. Thank you so much, Joffrey. Yes, I think those are both two really a few very valid points. So sort of installing an entrepreneurial thinking in local groups and producers and to recognize the opportunities they have in terms of their position in the market and to create sustainable enterprises that take account of several aspects needed to be resilient and sustainable in their businesses. Anyone else who would like to come in now and say something on this? Okay, in which case I might share my screen again because I have prepared a few slides to sort of sum up the type of requirements that MAND may be appropriate to use in. So I'm just going to start sharing my screen again. So you can see wonderful. Oh, yes, Johnny, you've just raised your hand. Please go ahead. Yes, we could see your screen and I wanted to say something for us as a forest and farm facility. The MAND is important because we want to strengthen the capacities of the producer organizations to provide these services on these businesses to their members. And we believe that the staff of the umbrella apex organizations using this MAND will be strengthening their capacities. So therefore we support this training and we hope that with this refresher training and the apex organizations will continue working on the MAND. Also, I would want to learn how is the status of the implementation of this MAND because most of them, they have already received the first round of training. Over. Wonderful. Thank you, Johnny. And indeed, this is a point that you can see here as a second point on my slide. Let me just go through it and you will see that many of your points are reflected in what I had noted down. So the goal of market analysis and development of the approach is to assist individuals living in rural communities, develop enterprises to generate and improve their incomes while ensuring the sustainable management of their natural resources. So this is an important point, sustainability. So you may find that MAND is a useful approach if you want to help your FFPRO members adopt sustainable livelihoods by developing enterprises based on natural resources that are available to them. Or you may want to enable your members to sustainably manage the landscape they operate in by giving them incentives in the form of business profits from their own enterprises to make use of their natural resources in a sustainable manner. And MAND, of course, provides a framework that can be adjusted to different contexts and used for different purposes. So it was originally developed for tree and forest product-based enterprises, but it has been successfully applied also by you in other contexts for agricultural products, livestock initiatives. It has also been applied in fisheries projects and community-based tourism projects. So it's really flexible in that way. And as Johnny has mentioned, we would also really like to see this long-term vision of ours become reality, the vision of FFPRO members, FFPROs being able to provide their members with business incubation services. And for this, they have to develop their own capacities and capacities of FFPRO staff employed in such business incubation units to be able to support potential entrepreneurs in developing their businesses. And this is a point that was also raised by you. The next one, you may find that FFPRO members are able to sell their products, but they may be disadvantaged by middlemen they're dealing with or are unable to respond in their production and sales strategies to changes in the market. And as the MAND process requires entrepreneurs to reflect on their business environment, conduct their own research and develop their own business and marketing strategies. It really empowers them to develop entrepreneurial thinking. And this provides them with a strong foundation to become more strategic entrepreneurs who seek out opportunities within their capacities in the value chain and who can adapt their strategies to changes in their production base, their market environment and the whole value chain. And then lastly, and this is also something that you've touched upon. As the approach encourages planning and development of business strategies, it also contributes to local communities or local groups investment preparedness. So making it easier for them to access external capital and investments. The main output or one of the main outputs of the MAND process is a clear and logical business plan. Enterprises may find it easier to communicate their financial requirements with this plan to financial service providers. So I think there was a good overview. And I would now like to talk with you about, I'm sorry, I'm having trouble finding the right place to click. I would now like to talk with you about the core principles of MAND. And I'm going to stop sharing now again, because I would like to have a discussion around what you think are the core principles of MAND. Is there anyone who would like to go first? So principle really, in this sense, I mean, what makes it perhaps also different from traditional project approaches? Can you see maybe if there is a difference between the traditional project and beneficiary setup? Eva, and I can see you have unmuted yourself. Would you like to come in? Yes. May I? Please. Yes. I think the MAND is very important for us, for training, for FPO. And through the MAND implementation, I recognize that this is a very, very practical approach for training. And first, for sustainable livelihood for FPO, if we train them and they apply, because first they can recognize what's the most potential product of their area. In the first place, when we organize the training and we let the FPO to discuss, they have many products around them and around the forest and the farm landscape, but they can discuss and they can choose what is the most potential product from their area. I think it's a very good way. And the second, how we talk about sustainability of them from their product, they recognize what's the important cooperation, a group work. And they can understand if they work alone, what is the advantage, and if they work together, how they can cooperate with each other and how they can develop their product. And I think it's a very, very issue because in Vietnam, most forest farmers, they have very small land and small forest. If they did not recognize the cooperation and the group working and collective action, sometimes they do not believe each other and they cannot cooperate with each other and they cannot establish the FPO and manage the FPO well. This is the sustainability of organization also. And the third thing, through the MAND, we can recognize some very important factors. In fact, to their business, we have the five factors. When we have the framework and farmers can understand what the natural resource affects to their business, what is the economic and market affects to their business, what's the illegal or illegal and institution factor and policy, how it affects to their business. And even the social issue also, how they have to work together and provide solidarity and cooperation among community. I think also it affects to their business. And the last one, the technology also, how they have to apply, how they can develop their product and increase the income through then not only raw material and they can improve their product by processing, yes, by bringing this to the market. I think the FPO can recognize the five factors affected to their business very well. And then when they agree with each other, they will develop the business plan, they can rise the project, how they can assist to other financial institutions to find out the captain for business. And I think those issues make them confident step by step and then they can develop their product through their homework, through their plan and through their corporations. I think it's a very important something and some factors talk about the sustainability through the approach, through the networking, through the cooperation and through the improve their business planning. Yes, thank you very much. Thank you, Yvonne. Yes, some very, very good points that you've raised there in terms of the empowerment and the participation of the entrepreneurs in the whole process and making them really the main actors and understanding their position and their possibilities and identify their strategies as entrepreneurs. A very good point also raised on the five areas of sustainability that impact on a business and that are important to consider as you develop your enterprise. And a very interesting point also on the sustainability of the organization and of understanding the benefits of working together as a group. I think those are really, really interesting points. Would anyone else like to comment perhaps or talk about some other principles of MAND that sort of set it apart from traditional projects, development projects? Stand silent. Okay, well I think Yvonne, you've really covered a lot and perhaps if you allow me, I just would like to put up a few slides to summarize what I thought would be the key principles. So let me start sharing my screen again. Let me relocate it. Okay, can you see my screen? Yeah, okay. Yes. Okay, so we've talked about the empowerment principles. So the MAND methodology is based on participatory principles and empowerment rather than on direct intervention in people's livelihoods. So with that we speak of entrepreneurs and rather than beneficiaries. So this means that the entrepreneurs know and control all elements of their enterprises rather than being out of control over the assistance they receive in traditional development projects. MAND really enables entrepreneurs to acquire the skills and knowledge necessary to undertake sustainable livelihood development activities that will continue after the training ends and external support has maybe ceased. So entrepreneurs are encouraged to link to service providers who can assist them in accessing resources that suit their particular needs rather than receiving grants without many conditions. So a very, very important key element or principle is the empowerment of the entrepreneurs. And then, as I've mentioned, there is also, and as you've mentioned, there is a focus on a participatory approach which goes hand in hand with the empowerment of course. So MAND is a participatory involving a wide variety of flexible tools and the facilitators here play a very crucial role because they need to select the tools of this really large collection of tools available according to the needs of the participants and according to the needs of the local context and the available resources. So the facilitator is crucial because he or she needs to know the appropriate use of MAND and the different tools and methods and select and fit the tools to the requirements of the communities they work in. But the role of the facilitator is not to provide extension services, but to facilitate a participatory process that aims to develop the capacities of the entrepreneurs to think, analyze and act on their own. So the MAND facilitators need to attend facilitator training sessions and study the MAND field facilitator guidelines carefully. And the facilitator also needs to match the pace of the MAND process with the capacities of the entrepreneurs. So entrepreneurs need time to internalize the information that they require to make the best decisions for the enterprises. I actually have some slides here so I need to show them also. So this was just a slide of empowerment and participation. And then Yvonne also mentioned the five areas of enterprise development. So the MAND process takes into account environmental, social, institutional, technical factors, as well as commercial and financial aspects of the product. And the screening of these five areas of enterprise development in every phase of the MAND process is essential for creating sustainable businesses. Would you perhaps be able to speak to why these different areas are there? I'm just going to stop sharing. I'll leave that up so you can see. So what do we mean by social sustainability? Why is that an important consideration? Yes, please. I'm sorry. In this mode it's difficult for me to see who's raised their hand. But I think Twan. Yes, hello, Katah. Thank you for the success, me. And I think five areas of enterprise development are very important for farmers who want to be developed in their business. Because this, like a screening, like a screening can like a method that can help them to collect information, follow five sustainable enterprise, and also can develop them. They can consider very, very full, very full information with full of information before they make decisions for their enterprise, for their development business. And I think five areas not only help them make the right decisions because they can make farmers to understand more about their situation and also can find information, follow five areas to make sure that they do not lack information about the market. Yes, thank you, Twan. I think that's a very, very good point that the five areas are important for finding all the necessary, the screening on the five areas are important on finding key information that will impact on the enterprise. And in particular on social and cultural sustainability, would anyone have an idea of what is meant by that? Why is it important for an enterprise to ensure social sustainability or what does that mean? Grace, I can see you've unmuted yourself. Please go ahead. Okay. Good morning, once again. For aspect of social and cultural, it is important to be considered in the enterprise because it is the area where the participant in the community in general, they must be comfortable with the product that we want to raise in the market. So, so long as with the enterprise development, we aim to have a business that the product can be solved or used by people within the community. So, if we might develop any business that is not social or cultural acceptable in the area, that business will not work. So, whatever we think of any business, we must think who are the first ones to benefit from it. I think it's the immediate community. So, it is important to be very important to think or to consider the the need of the government, how that product, how they view it is socially or culturally acceptable or whatever. So, this is my thinking. Yes, thank you, Grace. I think that's a really, really good point. You want to make sure that if you develop a product or an enterprise idea that some of your community members may be opposed to for cultural or social reasons, you will find it difficult to run your enterprise in the long run because you're essentially doing it in a hostile environment. So, you need to make sure that your enterprise idea is socially acceptable. Are there any other social aspects that you think are important in the development of your enterprise idea? Oui, moi je pense que le volet social est important au sein d'un de l'entreprise pour qu'elle soit très importante dans la mesure où l'entreprise doit travailler dans un premier temps pour ses employés. C'est-à-dire que ses employés doivent avoir un niveau de vie acceptable pour pouvoir participer au développement de l'entreprise, donc moi je pense plutôt le volet social au niveau de l'entreprise. Je pense que le volet social à l'espectre est très important. Ça signifie que les besoins du personnel de l'entreprise pour qu'elle puisse se développer et durablement, c'est mon point de vue. Okay, thank you very much. Yes, that's really important also, of course, that those who are engaged in the enterprise are treated fairly, I suppose, and this will also come into consideration in your economic considerations now. Perhaps just one more thing that I wanted to point out in terms of social sustainability. I guess one of the most important points also in that regard is that you need to make sure that your enterprise, at the very least, does not harm any disadvantaged members of the community and that it is equitable, as you've said, and also gender balanced. So taking into consideration of the needs of women participating in the enterprise and their particular inequalities that they still face in many aspects. Okay, so shall we then perhaps move to legal sustainability? What do we mean by that? What do you think? Why do you think is it important to consider legal aspects to make an enterprise sustainable? Please, Tiadola, welcome. Okay, thank you. So it's very important to consider the legal area because any enterprise exists based on the legal arrangements that the country has. So for example, the operations, you need to abide to some laws and policies. Like if you have an enterprise maybe dealing with the production of a food product. So you will have to get to abide to the standards and those standards are well stipulated in the legal framework. But also if you come, for example, to Tanzania, our experience is you will have to abide from the district arrangements that they have. Like it fits an enterprise, you need to have a certificate, but also you'll need to have certificates of certain entities that your products are aligned into. So it's very necessary if you want to operate because it gives you the legal identity, but also it allows you to do business. And if you want maybe to do some imports, you want to do exports, you'll need to have that legal identity within your enterprise. Thank you, Tiadola. Yes, that's a very good point. So MAID really ensures that the entrepreneurs stay abreast of changing laws and policies that may influence all aspects of their enterprise. So harvest, processing, transportation, the distribution of products, as well as, as you said, the registration, but also financing of the operations of the enterprise. Okay, shall we move to market sustainability? What do we mean by that? What does that mean? Why is this important for an enterprise to be sustainable to consider? The market area. So MAID contributes to enterprise sustainability by ensuring access to market information and staying abreast of any changing policies that influence product distribution, for example. So this process really helps the entrepreneurs to remain competitive by assessing the changes in market environments and adapting their products so that they remain attractive to the targeted customers. Okay. Yes, Nila, please. In case of market accessibility, if we want to sustain in entrepreneurship, we must know the demand of the market and we need to or we can compete with the other products in the market until we know our production and our competition in the market. We cannot sustain to the last. And another thing is that we need to know all the process that our production is not only enough for our enterprise. We need to go to the market and fulfill the demand. And the third one is this. How to reach up to market the entire process helps us to sustain our business and entrepreneurship does not meet only the production. It also makes us wide and sustained till the last time to reach to the market. And another thing is that up to the market and its what production and its verification of the products will help us to make the bettering and the modification of the production will help us. So market accessibility is the major part after production, I think in case of entrepreneurship. Wonderful. Thank you very much. Sorry, did you want to say something? Sorry, I interrupted you. But yes, I think we got your point and that's a very good point and reiterates also what I just said. I would now like to move to resource sustainability. Would anyone want to tell us why it is important to consider your resources in terms of natural resources? Nila, do you still want to come in or is this an old hand? Single point I want to add here more. Yes. If you choose the business stand that unlike the availability of the resources will obviously harmful for us. Mainly we need to be sure that whether the raw materials are easily available for us or not for our upcoming business and its sustainability. And another thing is that if we get that materials around us which may decrease our cost in entrepreneurship or in our production. And another thing is that if we go for the interest of the business which is beyond our availability of the raw material will also increase our cost obviously as I told. And third one is that resources is the mainly part which helps us to increase, sustain and build up our confidence in the business. Yeah, that is the thing. Thank you. I just wanted to ask another quick further question. What do you mean by costs increasing if we do not have the resources? If we need to buy or bring raw material from the distance obviously it costs a lot rather than it is close to us. In case of that I say yes it increases our cost in investment. Yes, I see. Okay, thank you. Very good points. Please, Tuan, you need to unmute yourself. Sorry we cannot hear you. Please, Tuan. Yeah. And I think talk about the nature resources that are very important that farmers need to consider because you know, currently farmers can invest in unstable and use a lot of chemical and also make resources degradation and have to invest more and more input for their farming system which increase the increasing production cost and also reduce their quality products. And in the context of climate change these things become even more serious for farmers. So natural resources management if farmers can handle natural resources management good they can improve their capacity complete in the markets and also reduce the cost for their products and they also connect better in the economy in the market. Yeah, I think. Thank you. Just quick for that question. What do you mean, how do you mean they may reduce the cost of their product or the price of their product? If they control good natural resources they can reduce the fee for input. For example, if they can diversity for their many layers crop they can reduce the pump investor, pump sink or they can reduce the for the life for their system. Yes, I see. Yes, I think that's a very interesting point also what you raised around the quality of your product and how taking into account the natural resource base and the types of inputs that you need are also going to not only influence the cost of your production but also the quality of your product and your reputation. So that's very interesting. Okay, unless there is another yes please. I would like to add something in fact the impact of the activity on the environment. That means you need to take into account the natural resources that are available in order for you to reduce the impact of the activity on the environment. That is the carbon footprint means we would like to we would need to manage our business in a more general sense. That means you need to look at the activities or the business activities that you're handling. Thank you. Okay. Thank you, Angi. Yes, I'm not sure I understood the last point exactly about the different activities. If you could perhaps explain that a little bit more. I meant that the business or the enterprise should consider the environment in terms of its production. That means its activities must have a positive impact on the environment. Thank you. Yes, so I guess to consider to consider the environmental impact for all of your different activities. Okay, I now would like to touch on the last point which is technological sustainability. Would anyone like to have a guess what what is meant by that? Why is it important to consider technological aspects in order to to be sustainable in your enterprise? Yeah, I think because we are now living in now in a world where technology is influencing many things right from the product themselves and even the way we market the products and maybe I'll talk about two things. If you look at for example farming forest products in some cases you will need technology to value add these products and also the other thing is also need technology to market them especially if you are using a if you are doing a digital marketing for example. And so yeah so it also influence your outreach as well as your accessibility of the of the product in the market. And why is it then what is it that an entrepreneur should ensure that in terms of these different technologies that are available to render their enterprise sustainable? I think one is an entrepreneur needs to to stay abreast of you know to keep an eye on what is happening in the what is happening in the technology for space and how that will influence their products. So to me it's a matter of being aware of what is happening with regards to technology. Yeah. Okay, thank you Jeffrey. I think that was that was a very good point. I also like the the idea that technology can really influence or can have an impact can be useful in many different areas of your enterprise activities. So in production and value adding but also in the marketing and that entrepreneur should stay aware of any new technologies that might become available. Tang Yu, I've seen your hand up. Yes, thank you. Hi everyone. Yes, from my point of view, technology is very important for the AFPLs in their production and business. We can help you and again apply in all in whole their production and business process, I mean from input to fresh and farm caring, harvesting and marketing to the to the market. And through working with AFPLs in Vietnam, we really see that the technology really helps AFPLs to add venue for their production and business. And with the capacity AFPLs, I mean, if they have a good capacity, the technology is really bringing benefits not only for AFPLs but also their members. And here, technology, we are, I am referring to the equipment and we have a lesson learned that one of our AFPLs in Vietnam, when they invest equipment, machinery for the plywood processing, they bought a very old machine because they lack of capital for their investment. But you know what you see is that after that, they had to spend a lot of cost for repairing the machine. So that's a very good lesson learned. After that, we can understand where the situation and advise for better advice to the AFPLs in technology. Thank you. Thank you, time. That's a very interesting example and a good point that you need to sort of be aware of any pitfalls that come with investing in certain technology rather than other, in this case, an older type of machinery that will then require more inputs from you to repair and keep working. Neela, did you want to say something to add to that? Yes, Gatha. Actually, obviously, it creates a technology space for production. And it is the easy space or easy way to inform the people about your products. And it takes the next least time. It means it helps to preserve the time to inform about your products to the people. And it helps us for evaluating facts as well as aware of the similar kinds of product, what is happening in the market. And it is the easy way to marketing, obviously, yes, it is. And easy for selling as well as buying the raw material and to show the real processing, processing to grab the consumer's interest towards your product. And it helps to be aware about the upcoming mishaps to save your products and your business. I guess these might be the good way or it helps us, that technology helps us to sustain our entrepreneur. Thank you, Neela. Yes, many benefits of using technology, many potential benefits. Boahangi, please go ahead. This is the last point because I would like to move ahead in our agenda. Please. Boahangi, did you want to? Yes, please. Thank you. I would also like to add the fact that technology allows the enterprise to create more competitive products. And also this one allows us to produce a good quality product that can contribute to the improvement of human health as well as animal health, environmental health and all that. And therefore this contributes a lot to the improvement of our general production. So that is what I wanted to add. Thank you. Thank you very much, Boahangi. Yes, indeed, many benefits again. There was just one point that I wanted to still reiterate and that is the sustainability aspect of the technological area. And that is that while there are many benefits to different types of technology, you also need to make sure that you, as an entrepreneur, are able to acquire it, to use it, to maintain it. Because if you are not, then you are not sustainable in the technological aspect. Your enterprise is not sustainable. So I think there is an important point to make here about the equipment and technical processes being appropriate to the enterprise and to the capacities of the entrepreneurs. And they sort of cater to their needs, but they also suit the users and the local conditions in which they will operate. So that was just one last point I wanted to make on that. I was wondering whether Isabel and Jacques would like to have a whether we missed any important points when talking about these five areas of sustainability? No, most of the point has been mentioned and clearly. But there is just a bit of distance from the details is that why we use ME&D and not other enterprise development approach is especially for two aspects, which are not considered usually by the other enterprise development approaches, which is the natural resource management and environment and the social and cultural aspects. Let's say that you don't need ME&D if you want a efficient enterprise who makes money and has a good technology, but you will need ME&D if you want also to have a positive impact on social aspect and a positive impact in terms of environment. And you mentioned the details behind this, but it's really I emphasize this a lot because I have seen recently, even in Nepal, that you can have a very efficient enterprise making a lot of money, giving work to some people and using but using natural resources from elsewhere. That means the environmental impact of the enterprise is not a plus for the regional development. So all these center into consideration and this is specific to ME&D. That's what I wanted to see. Otherwise, all what has been said, I think shows that everything is integrated and understood. Thank you so much, Isabel. Yes, that's a very good point to highlight that the social, cultural and environmental aspects are a particularity of ME&D, important ones, which we've seen to make sense also. Perhaps now I'm going to continue in my quick summary of, yes, please, Jack please. Yes, okay. What I just wanted to add is that in fact these five areas, when we do the planning of the enterprise or when we do the study, it's a way to brand all these together. We don't have to take each of the area. Of course, we have to start with that. But after that, we have to mix all this area and to see what is the best. Am I clear? Okay. So, and the second thing I wanted to add is that these five areas have to be also used when we run the enterprise later, in phase four or six or whatever. That means in the long run, you have to come back on a regular basis and to see if these five areas are okay or not. Or do I miss when I'm running my enterprise? One issue that is more, for example, natural management or economy or social or whatever, to be sure that when running the enterprise, we don't forget one. Okay. And we don't have to money, for example. That's just what I wanted to add. Thank you, Jack. Yes. And we will talk about the ME&D process and how throughout the entire process, the entrepreneurs will consider all of these five areas. Yes. Okay. So we're still talking about the core principles of ME&D. And I would now like to, we've talked about the different, the five areas of enterprise development. And now I would like to talk about another particularity or another principle of ME&D. And that is the forming of strategic alliances. So ME&D emphasizes the importance of creating these strategic alliances between entrepreneurs and service providers and of developing market linkages. So along the value chain, and there is a sort of very rough schematic of one, there are two types of factors. We have direct actors who are all the people in the market chain through which the products move. So harvesters, traders, manufacturers, consumers, you can see them here in the middle. And then you have indirect actors who are the people or organizations that influence different aspects of product marketing. So there could be policymakers or technical researchers or environmental advocacy groups. But support to tree and forest based enterprises cannot be delivered by a single service provider. Isabel, did you want to say something? I can see your hand up. And I'm sorry, Jacques, I can see your hand up. No, okay. Okay. Sorry. So support to tree and forest based enterprises cannot be delivered by a single service provider since various types of expertise will be needed. Some related to production or forest management, some to marketing, enterprise management, some associated with technology or policy issues. And the facilitators in ME&D and ME&D process can help entrepreneurs identify strategic partners that can sustainably contribute to the development of the enterprise. So then I wanted to touch upon a very important concept, which is the difference between selling and marketing. And ME&D really encourages the second. So selling is about focusing on selling more products, irrespective of what the customer wants and selling really what you can make. So it's sort of product oriented. It looks for new opportunities to sell products. So it's volume oriented. The more you sell, the better. And it's customer service is sort of secondary. And there is quite limited planning and feedback in the whole process. Marketing, as opposed to that, focuses on what you can sell. So this is where you adjust your enterprise to the market, to the customer and oriented towards profit rather than quantities. So profit oriented. And you try to make what you can sell. So there is a focus on value adding and packaging on customer service. And there is extensive planning and feedback in the whole process. And we have already talked about the process itself and Jack has touched upon this. And you, I'm sure all familiar with this filter diagram, as we call it, which is, and I'm sorry, I've only put this up in English, but I hope our French colleagues are familiar with it. So this is really just a demonstration of in an ideal situation, how the MA&G process works. And it's really important. The filter aspect is really important. So phase one begins with the potential entrepreneurs assessing their current situation. What are their capacities? What are they available, the local resources? What are their main constraints in the market system in each of the five areas of enterprise development? And then shortlisting resources and products that married further research in the next phase. So in phase two then, the preselected products, you already have, you know, a little bit of a filter. So you only have a few products, less of a few products going through the filter, the first filter. So in phase two, the preselected products and resources are systematically examined again from all perspectives relating to the five areas of enterprise development. And this is done by the entrepreneurs collecting data for each area, which then eventually allows them to select the most promising product and the most appropriate form of enterprise. Phase three is then all about analyzing the data collected in phase two in order to refine the enterprise idea and to develop the enterprise development plan. And this is also the phase in which the entrepreneurs identify their training and assistance needs based on the enterprise strategy they have chosen. And in phase four, quite at the bottom but really important is where all the planning and strategizing then turns real. And entrepreneurs start piloting the enterprises and receive any necessary further training and financial support. And the role of the facilitators really important here in accompanying the entrepreneurs in the space. This is crucial and we'll hear more about this when we discuss phase four activities on our last training day. So then I wanted to talk a little bit about the role of the facilitator and I've already touched on this before but MA&E really stresses the responsibility of the potential entrepreneurs in the whole development of their enterprise. So place is really clear boundaries around the facilitators role. The facilitators support is needed throughout the process but it is critical that the entrepreneurs acquire the skills to make their own decisions and to formulate their own enterprise plans. So the entrepreneurs really must participate in each phase of the process for a successful enterprise development. And then I wanted to talk about the role of the business development specialist sitting in a business incubation unit in Forest and Farm Produce Organizations. So as I've mentioned we have invited participants from second and third tier produce organizations and you can see here a schematic of sort of local tier and then the second, third and national tier. And in FFF we believe that within the second and third tier it could be very, very useful if there was a designated business incubation unit as I've mentioned before that could support MA&E processes. And the role that these units or the staff in these units would take would be in coordinating MA&E activities in very important helping data gathering, ensuring that the environment is conducive to MA&E implementation. They would also then ensure that the necessary resources for MA&E implementation are available. They should provide the facilitators with the necessary information, support them in organizing their training sessions and also help in designing support strategies for the startup phase, for the starting enterprises, create links with service providers, but also evaluate the facilitators work and the EDPs, the enterprise development plans that are produced through these trainings. Okay, I think we're a little bit behind our schedule as was expected, but I just wanted to, no actually let's move on. So we've finished talking about the core principles of MA&E and now I would like to start talking about the whole, the preliminary phase of the MA&E process. And you can see here on the slide a schematic of the whole process. And we know that there are four phases, but in reality, before you can start implementing the first phase, there is a raft of preliminary activities that need to be completed, both by the FFPO business incubation staff, as well as by the field facilitators to encourage support from key stakeholders and to check all the supporting elements and services needed by entrepreneurs are available, but also to collect information, which will be very important throughout the entire MA&E process. So here I just wanted to, oops, okay. So before I go ahead, I was wondering, I'm going to stop sharing now because I wanted to ask you, what were the key activities that you in your own context implemented before MA&E process was started? I would just like to sort of hear, if you can remember, how did you go about preparing for MA&E? What were the activities that you've implemented? Yes, Tuan, yes. Yeah, thank you, Daja. I think before Vietnam FFF team conducted MA&E, Vietnam FFU, choose the key partners very well. They know very well the methods, the approach, how they can choose the right person to train for FFFU, to transform or what's the miss Isabelle trainer for first to farmer. So I think the most important thing that they can collect many partners in different organizations that can support for each other to have a same view, same mindset. And after that, we discussed with open mindset so we can can can can can apply what we learned for our situation in Vietnam. Yeah, I think that's all. Thank you, Tuan. So you've sort of assessed the different types of organizations that could support the entrepreneurs in their activities. Do I understand correctly? Okay. Would anyone else be willing to tell us who could tell us what activities they have? Please, Chris. From my organization, under the preliminary phase, what was done was first to choose the farmer group to work with. But again, because as they were going to work with FFF, they tried to brainstorm what interventions can fit under FFF program so that they had that in mind, tried to choose the farmer group to work with, but also about the intervention and also try to select some staff who attended the MADI training, the first one, so that when they come back, they can facilitate those mistakes. So that's the thing that was done before the MADI training. Okay, thank you. So you've selected your groups and you've made sure that you had staff trained up to what people trained up to to facilitate the process. I would like to touch on the first point you made in phase one, when we talk about phase one and the selection of participants. I just would like to continue collecting a few more points, please. Yes, Gata. From the BNFUF team in Vietnam, the first thing, because before we conduct MADI training, it was very important to make the document of the MADI, I mean, Vietnamese side, the documentation to be like acquainted with the trainees, because most of our trainees are farmers. And as we all understand that MADI consolidates many kinds of skills and not needs like collect information, value chains, or cost-accounting structure. So it's very important to make the documentation suitable and as simple as possible with our trainees as RFEOs. Thank you. Wonderful, thank you. Yes, so you've translated and adapted the MADI material to the local context in which it was then used. Very important point. Yes, thank you, Tang. Anyone else would like to tell us what they did before they implemented MA and D? Gata, did you want to say something? Yeah, speaking to me. Yes, your mic is open. I was just wondering whether you wanted to say something. I thought you were speaking about asking to the people. Yes, no, I just heard you. Anyway, yes, okay. So any of the participants would like to tell us what they did before they implemented MA and D? What about information that might have been useful perhaps in the process? Did any of you collect any data information in this phase? Gata? Yes, please, Yvonne. Yes, I think it's very important also from the point and Tang in sharing, I would like to add before we start the MA and D training, we also make some training needs assessment. We understand about our FAPO and FAPO they developed in every level. Some FAPO advanced already, but some FAPO very starting answers. That's why we also have to understand our trainees and the situation of them and what they have some potential from their area also. We call this training assessment needs. Yes, training needs assessment also. Okay, and so what were the results of that? What did you find? We have some criteria for selecting our FAPO because we organize one training we cannot cover for all. This is why we choose some participants for example one class we have about 24-26. And in our area project we consider about diversification of participants from the FAPO from the facility, the local facilitator. And sometimes we also invite some local people who can enroll in our training and we know their needs. And based on that we will focus in some very specific needs of our participants also. Yes. Okay, so you've used this pre-assessment to identify really the your target group for NAMD. Yes, because participants have some area, some people they work on the wood production, some people they work on the non-timber production. This is why we have to identify their needs also. Okay, thank you Yvonne. Thank you. Wahandi, please. Yes, I'd like to say also that apart from choosing actors, so what we did there it was to help facilitate the process that will help us to improve livelihood of these farmers. So that was one of the most important issue before we launched ADM. We wanted that they to tell them that the tools was very important so that it will help them to change the livelihood. Thank you. If I understand correctly you've done some awareness raising in your target communities around what benefits MA&D could provide them with. Supposedly then enabling them to take the decision themselves and whether they wanted to participate or not. Okay, please Tan, yes. Yes, and one thing that I also very impressed with the Kepung work of Vietnam Farmer Union. As the first step, we are we are proud about the celebration. Sorry. I think there was some background noise there. Please go ahead. Yeah, you know, I'm also very impressed with the way that the Vietnam Farmer Union conducts in the field. First of all, they find out about the local situation by field surveys. But before the field survey, the Vietnam Farmer Union Accenture never also selected the size of each province, even ethnic districts, according to certain criteria like Miss Yvonne Savette before. You know, the Vietnam Farmer Union has a system that goes all the way to the grassroot level. So so they choose the province or two districts still suitable with the criteria of the program. And before we conduct the field surveys. So I think the field survey is very important before we follow the MND process. Yeah, that's all. Thank you, Tan. Okay, I was we're running a little bit behind schedule. So I would really like to oops, what have I done? I would really like to sort of I think that these are all really, really good points. And I just wanted to summarize what what we thought or I thought the different responsibilities of the FFPO business incubation unit or your particular units and what you have supported from which you have supported MND, but also important activities that the field facilitators need to undertake before MND is implemented. So let me start sharing my screen again. Okay. So I think what is really important is that you define realistic objectives as with any new activity. So they so that MND can be can be applied in a suitable context, but also to understand what benefits you might be able to provide for your participants. So you really need to also for this assess the estimated estimate the resources that will be required in terms of time, human and financial resources and the necessary training of the field facilitators. So realistic objectives also adjusted to your your own capacities to provide this kind of support. Then I think what is also really important is to assess the level from the different levels of administration and political authorities. Because you might find that if there is a national priority for a certain product or enterprises based on certain products, entrepreneurs might find that they can benefit from support during the startup phase of their enterprise and also later. So this could be simplified access to financial institutions or government funding programs, tax exemptions, easier registration formalities. So try to understand what is the level of support from administration and political authorities. And then a very important point is also to survey the region and what you're going to implement MND and I think Yvonne touched on this point and to establish contacts with the relevant organizations and institutions that operate in the same area. And the survey of the region or of the environment that the entrepreneurs are going to be operating in is also really important to compile a brief overview of the opportunities and the constraints for enterprise development in this area and to gain a broad understanding of the potential resources and products. And this will be important information that you will then be able to feed your facilitators who will work with this information when they work with the entrepreneurs. Then you need to define your financial strategy to support initial capital needs. And there are different options of course for financing the capital needs of enterprises. They could be the creation of saving and credit groups or existing village funds, microfinancing institutions or traditional banks. And of course you all know MND encourages entrepreneurs to use their own funds as much as possible and to establish links themselves to financial service providers. So whatever the option that you are going to go for or entrepreneurs are going to go for the different financial strategies should be discussed before MND is implemented. And then you've also talked about this. You'll need to select suitable field facilitators and this is a critical success factor. It may be a really useful strategy to select highly motivated enterprise-minded individuals from the communities themselves. Because they will know the context, the natural resources, the local partners and actors. They will speak the local language. So there are a number of selection criteria that you could look into in the field facilitator guidelines around the different qualities that facilitators should have in order to be useful in training for MND. And then you need to provide of course your facilitators with the necessary information. So at the very least they should have information about the market demand and legal institutional issues related to enterprise establishment. They should understand the difference between the enterprise development approach or the MND enterprise development approach versus the traditional project approach. And they should be aware of possible financial approaches. So then I also wanted to talk to you about the to-do list for the field facilitators before MND is implemented. So they need to have a very clear understanding of the MND process, principle methods and tools. So they need to be trained. Facilitators also need to examine whether the current conditions in their locality will be suitable for MND implementation. So they will need to make sure that the minimal requirements are met, meaning that there is support from the provincial, district, local administration. There are sufficient resources for all the tasks required. So this means time, human and natural resources. They need to also be aware of market demand and the situation of different concerned resources and product sub-sectors. And they need to be aware of the financial strategy for the project or for the MND implementation. Then they also need to of course ensure that they have an understanding of the local context. So you will need to have, as a facilitator, you will need to have an understanding of the market demand at national and international levels for products with existing trade routes. You need to be aware of the key stakeholders and service delivery organizations as well as the national legal context and aware of opportunities and constraints for enterprise development locally. Then they should really introduce the MND activities to key stakeholders in their localities to make sure that they know about the planned activities and there is support for that. They need to prepare the fieldwork tools, sorry they need to prepare the fieldwork so they need to prepare all the tools that will be necessary for the fieldwork, translate the relevant MND tools, list the existing resources and products in the region, a list of possible sources for capital, the list of the main rules and regulations, and a list of the possible legal statuses relevant to small-rule entrepreneurs. And then finally they need to prepare a work plan for themselves. Okay so we've raced through this now because we have about half an hour left and I wanted to talk to you about, wanted to talk with you rather, about phase one of the MND process. So this is just a reminder of where we are and now I would like to talk with you about what you think would be the objectives or are the objectives of the first phase of MND and I'm going to stop sharing my screen now so we can have a discussion. Who would like to go first? What do you remember are the objectives of phase one? Please Joffrey go ahead. Yeah sorry I was on mute. I think the first thing in phase one is to get to know the context, the situation you are operating in. So it is kind of doing an analysis of the situation and also looking around. So from an entrepreneurial perspective this will be like looking at the potential, if it's about the market, looking at the data, trying to analyze the data that is available about the about the enterprise and also generally looking at the situation, the decision that you are operating in with regards to the enterprise. Yes thank you Joffrey, very good point. So you need to sort of have a first look around as you said in your area and see what what resources and products are available, what is the potential. Please Wahangi. Yes apart from this preliminary data you need to define the expected objective within your enterprise. So you have to know how to answer the need so that you can improve the livelihood of these farmers so that you need to define the size of the enterprise that you want to create, what are the products that you want to create and what is the value that you are targeting. So this is a very important step before you go to the MAD. Yes thank you Wahangi, very good point indeed and this is the moment where the entrepreneur should really express and understand their expectations around what this enterprise is going to bring to their livelihoods. The decision about the size of the enterprise will be crucially dependent on that but this is a decision that will come a bit further down the track perhaps. But yes it will be based on this financial expectation, economic expectation that the entrepreneurs should express in this moment. Anyone else? Please Twan. Yes I think as the first party we will, our team, our facilitator team have an overview about the situation as the metagraphic suggests and we have two targets and first of all is to identify the potential entrepreneurs in the community, help them identify by themselves, they are really potential entrepreneurs and second is help them to identify the short list about the products in their community, the main product and diversify products in their community. Even now that's the many many many kind of product, not really product in this time but in the future they can become a potential product. Yes very good thank you so you've helped entrepreneurs to make that decision on whether they want to be or farmers or local producers make that decision on whether they want to be part of the process and also listing all the potential, all the currently available products and resources but also looking at perhaps products that are not yet being sold but could have a potential. Okay let me share my screen again, sorry this always takes a little bit longer so just to give an overview these are all points that you've touched upon so in phase one the objectives are who are identifying the potential entrepreneurs and understanding what they're helping them understand what their expectations are, look at the available resources and products and understand already what are perhaps opportunities and constraints within the value chain and the market system for these different long listed products. So here are the different steps I'm not sure this is maybe you could tell me if this is visible on your screens but you might be all familiar with the MAND map, I put it into languages I'm not sure it's maybe it might be too small but yeah so these are the different steps and outputs of phase one so phase one is where the potential entrepreneurs are identified, sorry let me go to the pointer, so this is where the potential entrepreneurs are identified, they assess their current situation their capacities and the available resources and the main constraints in the market system in each of the five, the main constraints in each five areas in all of the five areas of enterprise development and then based on these assessments they shortlist the resources and the products that merit further research in the next phase and they also recognize the benefits of working together. Okay let me see whether we have time for a quick conversation, it would be really good if I could find my mouse, sorry, okay yes so I think we might have just a minute and I want to stop sharing again because I wanted to ask you about how you implemented phase one activities whether you could perhaps retell us one of you in two three minutes on the different steps that you went through in implementing this phase with your potential entrepreneurs and their groups if you could just tell us how how did you what happened tell us the story Yes now we can hear you please go ahead, okay so for Zambia we have one of the groups that did MANB, so what happened was we identified a number of groups that were dealing in forest products others were making baskets others were doing brooms and different other products so these people were actually some of them were doing the businesses individually in some of them in groups but it wasn't really serious so these groups were identified and then they were brought together and then through the training they identified different types of businesses and which businesses would be beneficial and which ones have got enough resources within the community that they can they can adopt so they had a number of businesses they had listed out and then they did the survey on the market and the resources around and they came up with one business which was in basket making which most most of the people in the groups voted for and after that they since they were not really working as a group they later on formed one group to be able to work you know to do the business together and they managed to put money together to buy the resources they needed to make the baskets and up to now they've really moved well in their business yeah thank you is Faustina your name or because there is now a different name on the Faustina yes amazing okay thank you so much so from what it sounded like you've actually described the whole MA&D phase the whole process all the way to where there was a final product decided upon and a group formed and they acquired their finances and I was just wanting to put a little bit of a magnifying glass on the first phase of the different activities that you conducted in there and I've showed you the slide with the different steps so I was just wondering how you went about putting together a list of the different potential products and resources or how the entrepreneurs went about doing that whether you can recall I don't know okay hi can you hear me yes okay so initially in Choma we have a number of entrepreneurs that we are doing businesses individually so the initial initially what was done was to identify these groups of people to be brought together and that should have been done through radio programs where these people who are dealing in these forest product businesses we are able to approach together from one community but they were all doing businesses based on forest products so the initial phase was to identify these people that are doing similar kind of businesses and after they were identified and they were able to be brought together they identified the type of businesses they are doing and the local resources they have within the community that was able to help in feeding into the business so I think that was actually the initial phase identifying the people that are dealing in the similar business and also identify the the local resources they have within the community that is helping them in feeding into the business yeah okay thank you for seeing I was wondering whether Isabel and Jack had some questions or comments perhaps yes um maybe some some comments sorry out of experience I would say that many many projects used to do this one very quickly or in some cases at least jumping directly to phase two so for me and for for people who use ME&D I think going through phase one is quite important especially choosing at the beginning identifying the right target group of potential entrepreneur I think is the key for success because if we miss that point and if the entrepreneur themselves or potential entrepreneur don't feel like they will become entrepreneur or don't feel the need to become entrepreneur then the whole process will be affected by that so the the that's the main value of phase one is to actually build on the confidence of the potential entrepreneur to slowly slowly become entrepreneur so so that's why I am a bit different in the the the fact to do to to spend a little bit time in phase one and also what you describe is the usual way I mean at the beginning of course it's the project or the project staff facilitator who who start the process in step one identifying the potential entrepreneurs are not yet there but from the second step when they identify themselves as potential entrepreneurs then they start to be active in the process they start to think about okay what are the qualities to become entrepreneurs do I have these qualities do I have the means to do so and what is there around me that that could use the the products the resources etc so what you describe already so what I want to to to say is the initial identification of potential entrepreneurs is the key for the project yeah thank you Isabella perhaps I mean you might be already working with with groups who are very entrepreneur minded or who are already running an enterprise and who would who would like further support or you might have within your ffpo a target group that you would like to to focus your your attentions on but yes it's a very important point that is about made that in in order to empower people to really participate and and and essentially run the whole process then they need to want this and they need to they need to also have the capacities not everyone can become an entrepreneur um um yes is there anyone else who would like to perhaps make a comment on uh Fustina's experience or perhaps from their own perspective and something else that we haven't talked about yet on phase one any activities or perhaps issues that they've run into in this first phase maybe I can share experience experience from our side in phase one what was done yes it was identification of a farmer group but it was a bit of discussion whatever to introduce to them to try to think about the forest based business what can be done there ideal they they had two ideas one was about charcoal making and also beekeeping but when they try to analyze based on those five areas the first the the first business they selected the charcoal making when they come on the issue of natural resources it was a barrier because they placed that place there is no big forest for them to harvest the trees for charcoal making while planting so so when they analyzed it it was not suitable or that project could not be sustainable because they could harvest in the forest the diminishing them few times before other trees get matured to be harvested it's then when they opted for beekeeping it is a new intervention but it's well acceptable in the community yeah after all those parameters then this when we come with the beekeeping interface maybe that's what I can share thank you grace and how did they how did your entrepreneur groups identify these two initial project ideas yes yeah they it was the what from us as organization introduced them the idea that they have to think on the business related to forest the forest business based so what can be done in relation to forest so that's why we they come with the two ideas charcoal making as the first one and the beekeeping as the second one but when they analyzed each of them they opted for beekeeping because it has the the the environment to support it better than charcoal making so did I understand correctly that you as the FFPO have given this this boundary around what type of enterprise what sort of product the entrepreneurs should should focus on by saying this should be forest based yeah that's what they told them it should be forestry based so if something related to foresting with the aim of leading to forest conservation or something climatic resilience so that was the message that was brought to the group that they needed to think something that can be related to issue of forest base if it can be tree planting but for them they said no we have a lot of trees here and of course the areas field of piles and eucalyptus so it was not interest for them they make it cannot make a profit for them so they try to think the forest based the business that can make a profit on their side and do you know whether the the unit that supported the facilitator and the entrepreneur groups were able to provide some some background information on the prospects of these different products and I mean we're not even talking about products yet because beekeeping can produce of course different products but these different value chains in general well I was just wondering how much information the entrepreneurs the potential entrepreneurs were had to work with and whether they also then generated some more data and information around the different value chains that they had thought about I think they got the preliminary one because it was after this money training that when staff from my hour when they had faceted them yeah I can't tell how much they had because just a briefing that I got when I joined the organization that's how they did it okay but the main issue for them to take the beekeeping project is based on the sustainability of the project compared to charcoal making okay I understand so they they already understood and made some initial assessments and understood that from the natural resource area of enterprise development from that aspect no enterprise could be sustainable because there were not enough resources okay I was wondering whether our two start trainers Isabelle and Jack had any comments perhaps please Jack okay for me this phase one is quite tricky it's tricky because we are asking to villagers to make a list of what almost exists in their place and at the same time to take a decision which are the best product but to take a decision about the best product they have to have information about okay market information technology information and all this and that they don't have really actually so they end up most of they end up and say most of the time they end up some time with a decision of or selection and enterprise or product that may not be the best for them because they are more or less driven by we can say information they got from there and there and there and maybe maybe from the radio or from someone who is pushing something some ID let's say we end up I'm sorry to come back to the horny story but if you we have been working in different places in the world and we saw that horny is selected very often but when we went in details with the villagers we saw that the idea of selecting horny was pushed by government or was pushed by somebody else okay so people were going to take horny and it's something that we people heard about it I don't know if I am clear or not but what I wanted to say to the facilitators is that they have a huge influence or they have a huge okay the importance in the selection of this first product because they should have together before okay the selection they should have enough information to explain to the villagers or to explain to the future entrepreneurs what are the risks or what are the good points for each of the product is it clear or not yes okay yes I cannot see many people with their cameras on so I'm not sure um nela yes did you want to say something actually I support the ideas what Isabel told us obviously yes it happens in my case as well we selected there would be entrepreneurs on the base of community forest users group who are the part of district fakupan team and we asked them which sent later them and saying all of the things and they took part in MA and training some of the participants were already the part of entrepreneurship from the facilitation of local government or anything else but the very problem at the end what I found that actually they were not confident enough and they were not very clear enough to do further work and they were just doing the work or that a small entrepreneur entrepreneurship only for the sake of communities of course fullness are forcing from friends and these are the things and the very first thing what I found is the problem to find out the real future entrepreneurs that's my experience so I'm totally agree with the double here so that is my point thank you nela yes please Isabel yeah um and this is actually emphasize in the case of uh having already groups already organized that are said to be uh uh to to use men d because sometimes it it comes from individual entrepreneurs who would actually lead also to become entrepreneurs but if you have already all the first user group or any or group not all of the members of the group will have the the capacity and the willingness to do so so there is an additional internal problem to solve there before identifying the entrepreneur and maybe this additional problem uh uh need some examination of the legal issue also institutional issues related to that is it is there any possibility for some members of a group formal or informal group register or non-register to become entrepreneur and what relation he will have with the rest of the group so this is a very uh common problem being a cooperative being a non-formal forest user group etc we face this question a lot of time and it is very important to identify this problem right at the beginning and slowly slowly work on it uh to come up with some internal uh organization and an understanding of this point by the by the member of the group altogether yeah that is a key point thank you Isabelle thank you nela would anyone else like to come into this discussion please check your idea yes when i know is somebody else yes and you go on okay please go on yes thank you i would like to add some uh some idea on this i think the first phase of mabnd very very important because everything we start with very basic knowledge and organization and potential product and through the implement mabnd in vietnam after seven years i think that uh very uh core issue one thing this is how facilitator and and FAPO members can join together and can talk and can share the idea with the facilitating skill is very important because at the beginning sometimes the facilitator or local people sometimes they talk a lot they did not listen to our FAPO members and this is why we cannot the uh how to say build up the confidence for our FAPO member and i think through the homework or through the exercise if we have to to understand about facilitation skill for all participants like the principle is very important also and even in vietnam before we uh train the mabnd training we also train them the facilitation skill because this skill will go through own process of mabnd training in training and in implementation in the coming time that's all yes i think i would like to add one thing facilitation skin very important also for for training and for mabnd training for organization like uh elizabel said that the organization internal issue from uh organization management is very important also especially in incubation um uh business process make confidence for people for FAPO thank you everyone john did you want to add something can i do yes okay um when i look at the edp that we're sent to us okay it seems that the selection of projects of the different enterprises were cooked in advance that means it was already decided or it came to a way that the projects enterprise that were selected already existed and it seems that if this already existed that means the phase one was not done properly that just what i wanted to say thank you jack so i didn't i had i did have some slides prepared to talk about the different steps but i i think this discussion is more useful to you we have all implemented them and we have another four minutes left please turn yes many ideas here and um i remember one uh one small story when we conducted the phase one that is um when when we we said that FAP program does not give money or does not give machine or sibling many farmers and even many local officer very disappointed yeah yeah when we say um that oh everybody had them improve their capacity and many farmer and even local officer replied that farmer has been able to attend training a lot but after finish the training they still follow old habits yeah follow previous habits and they do not remember what they have learned and they don't believe that FFF can help them to become a entrepreneur the true entrepreneur and the second thing is um farmers many farmers afraid to record information write down information every day relate to their production for calculation or monitoring and not easy for them because does that not habit their their habit and it's very difficult to change that habits of farmers you know especially when when when the FFF have support for them to conduct uh certificate now organized certificates very very trick they are very um not not easy to to to follow that standard um and because they they don't have a habit writing writing or record information uh and they also think they are only small farmers who do not know much many people only guess the five grade or six grade not have a college or university certificate so they um they they they they say that how can we become a director like bossy company out there yeah yeah and they don't believe that they can complete with the compete with the company with the network of trader who are forcing their pricing every day here yes yeah yeah yeah and um yeah yeah sorry yeah sorry to interrupt i just i'm just aware of time and i i promise everyone that we would finish on time but we will have time tomorrow also when we will have a recap of today in the morning to discuss more and perhaps um also address some of your questions and issues you might have faced in phase one um but really interesting to hear about the the lack of confidence and i i just really briefly wanted to say that um i i think it it takes time no to build up confidence and and ma and e is is quite a slow process but at the end if you follow it i think this is the great gift that it gives you this this confidence that you have a good understanding of your situation and you know how to how to adapt your idea and your your business to that and how you can and information attain information that will give you also confidence and power in relation to these other big players in in in the value chain um so it's 12 o'clock uh in Rome anyway where i'm based um we have run out of time for today i would like to thank you from the bottom of my heart for your fantastic um participation and and all your inputs and and stories and we will continue here tomorrow uh same time same days uh we'll have a brief recap and then talk about phase two