 around our world on ThinkTac Live, broadcasting from our downtown studio in Honolulu, Hawaii, and Moana, New York. Today, we're looking at people in place together as a force for good, Article 24, Regenerative Rest and Leisure, recognizing design and development for Maui's future. Today, I'm very fortunate to be joined by two amazing advocates who really focus on regenerative tourism and know that tourism can be a force for positive change. Michelle, thank you so much for joining us today. Can you tell us what first inspired you to be involved in regenerative tourism and also why it is such an important issue for humanity today? Yes, and I want to offer just a little bit of caveat and acknowledgement that Bill and I are not in Hawaii and we're not native Hawaiians, we're not residents of Hawaii. I had maybe my most magical, certainly my most magical vacation in Hawaii years ago, so I feel some real love, but what we do bring is, I'll speak for myself and I know from working with Bill that he brings also several decades of focus on regenerative principles, on living systems principles as they show up, as they are useful in human contexts like communities and businesses and projects. So it's from this long time of working with a different worldview that doesn't tell us that everything in the world operates like a machine. The dominant story, the dominant western and non-indigenous story that guides so much of the world now tells us that we are separate from nature and separate from each other, that everything exists to be extracted and controlled and as we discover that there is more to the story, that that is not a viable story by itself, then we discover different ways of being in every kind of work and every form of community. So that's been my focus for about 25 years in a range of sectors and it is in the last five to seven years that I've brought a focus also to tourism. So I would say just to finish that bit of introduction, I'm especially excited about the potential of the tourism sector, the hospitality and hosting sector to help the world embrace this more Indigenous, more life-aligned worldview because the hospitality sector is already oriented to bringing people together in meaningful exchange, meaningful experience to think differently, to recreate themselves and recreate the world. So I think it's such an important sector, has such important opportunity to contribute to the regeneration, to the healing of people in place as you say and you have some real resources and leadership in Hawaii as well that I'm happy to say a bit more about what I see and what inspires me there but maybe you would like to invite Bill to introduce himself to. Sure Bill could you share with us a bit about what really initially inspired you and what do you see as being so wide, so important? Well what inspired me in general kind of what Michelle said is that what inspired me is working with life on its own terms not what we assume to be a way of manipulating or controlling life and when you realize that you realize you're really none of us are really in charge or in control and so that kind of work with that with emerging understanding and working with whole living systems which maybe we can get into a little bit to understand the practicality of that is what has led to our practice in working with real estate projects you know and how does real estate actually form an acupuncture point for regeneration is that we are not really working on the project we're working on the living system the human and other than human obviously because it's the worms and the trees and the animals and the critters and the birds that actually give us the clean air the fresh water to survive so if we talk about sustainability what are we what are we sustaining with sustainability and I think once you think about it at its core level we're sustaining life so how do we work with life on its own terms and as a result of that what led me to work in the tourism sector is a client coming wanting to do an eco resort in Mexico uh David Levin's public play of Eva was our first in 2006 and that has been a transformative project for their region for the area for visitors I've had visitors come up to me in the street and say no I was at this resort you worked on and I'm investing money in it with these with the people and I'm supporting a high school student anyway they got really excited about being engaged so um the inspiration happened by accident in terms of tourism it just is a natural extension of the work that we do with life I don't know I'll stop there maybe that seems a little inscrutable but I think that's a good place to stop no it's fully understandable and it really does begin that conversation what we're talking about it's really regenerative systems and the universal declaration of human rights does guarantee people around the world the right to rest in leisure has a necessity at looking at human activities because they can change into alignment with our natural systems and humanity must commit to a systems change to be catalyst for social change even in exercising that right to rest in leisure so it is imperative to nurture associations regenerating people in place and that's why I really do think it's necessary to change nature of travel to be a force for good and Michelle maybe you can share with us a bit some of those positive examples that you see in certain champions in regenerative travel and tourism that you see is guiding the way what are the main principles and what do you see as the possibility to change the current model I love how you said it's really too exploitative right now and we're moving more towards a mutual exchange instead of multinational corporations extracting and taking away it's more of a mutual exchange between people in place and learning from one another I want to start with the very first thing you said about the universal declaration of human rights that guarantees people around the world the right to rest and leisure and and already there it's a shift from the mechanistic story that would tell us we should just keep going like machines we don't need rest and leisure so it's a living system story that says this is part of the natural rhythm of any living system and yet when we have a systems view then we see that it can't be at the expense of those living systems that where we are taking our rest we also have to have responsibility so I'm seeing around the world an explosion of interest in what is coming to be called regenerative tourism we bill and I in our report that we wrote recently for destination canada the national tourism organization for canada we shifted it to regenerative approaches to tourism to make it clear that the work that's needed is is not primarily with the tourists but with the community if regeneration is in some ways a synonym for healing then what we're exploring what we're looking for is a way for the act of hosting and hospitality to be a force for good to be a force for healing as you're saying and so really that is the work of the hosting community to heal people in place the tourists can't do that for us in our community so it's it's very exciting that this conversation is starting to happen around the world and I know it's happening in Hawaii I saw that from a distance saw that conversation arising over the last few years and in particular during the pandemic and during a hopeful time as many thought this is our chance to pause and make choices on our own terms to understand who are we and and what do we want and what does this place need of us and can we take ownership and agency over the invitation that we extend and and I think what came out of the pandemic wasn't that reset that many hoped for and then the wildfires came and again brought that question to the forefront do we get a choice can we choose to come together as a community and make sure that when we invite people over as guests that we're not left in in worse shape than when they came and and to discover what is what is the real potential of this place what does this place need of us so I'm inspired by the conversations that are happening in particular with native Hawaiian wisdom and and cultural knowledge that's being brought to the forefront there's a professor named Pauline Sheldon at the University of Hawaii School of Travel Industry Management who is telling the story and offering real leadership and there's a network a global network called local 2030 of more than a hundred island nations around the world that are focused on these questions of of how do we among other things how do we reimagine tourism as a force for good and for healing and that starts most of all with the conversation that we have as a community so there are many places around the world New Zealand in particular where this conversation is is really beautifully unfolding at the operator level so how businesses hotels and and tourism services are reimagining themselves and at the community level at the regional tourism organization the government level all of them are coming together to reimagine we see it in Belgium in Northern Ireland and and here in Canada and I know Bill you have some other inspiring examples in other parts of the world as well so maybe that that's enough to hand it over sure go ahead Bill yeah maybe I want to make this I'll try to make this a little less a little more a little more a little less abstract whatever whatever well everything Michelle is saying is true and I'm wondering how that is being heard by the audience and I don't know if I got any better way into the subject matter but I will say that this that ultimately the best tourism in my experience has been through relationship through developing relationships with people in places I'm visiting and as I travel with work and I do a lot of traveling with work I find it is a lot more fun than traveling as a tourist so why is that and I realize it's because I'm engaged in something meaningful with the people of that place something that's important to them something that's important to me there's a deeper connection because of it it's not superficial and it's through relationships that we actually begin to heal we don't can't force healing it's being being in friendship and then well if we can make tourism and invite tourism to be focused on what's important to that community the visitors are going to feel that too and learn from that and take that into their homes so one way to think about this is that we're and this is going to sound that this is not back to abstract is that we're working with whole systems whole living systems Joshua I don't get to know you by looking at live at your liver and kidneys I look at you as a whole living entity and the places that we visit our living organisms and how do we see them what's the essence the core nature of that place and that's really at a subliminal level what we're exploring when we're when we're touring so when we actually are getting to know a place and here's the abstract part is that every whole system has to add value to the next whole system this is living systems theory that you need to add value to the next system so Joshua you with your family I'm the lowest the lowest hole in your body is a bacteria you need to be adding value to that it's adding value to you then you to your family your family to the neighborhood to the watershed these holes are identifiable and if we're not adding value to them then we don't have a sustainable condition so so regenerative tourism is about helping inviting people to see those relationships and I know it sounds abstract but it's actually relationship building the begin it helps us understand what's going on and understanding is the beginning of love that's what we come away with when we're when we're if we're really having a powerful experience right I'll stop because I'm thinking probably digging a hole and I should stop digging I was actually saying I love that we're digging deep in this dialogue so that's exactly where I was heading we're getting digging so that we can actually plant those seeds and it reminds me of experience I share as well I mean I remember the first time I went to Tahiti we went there to actually protest the nuclear testing of France there and I made a commitment after that experience like I will never really go somewhere unless it's really being invited by community to assist and in that genuine partnership and I'm lucky now I've been to over a hundred countries and they've all been along those same lines bill of people saying this is happening can you come and assist and reaching out and then you don't really stay at the places where there the tourism governments tell you to stay but you're really with the families you're in the community and you just have much richer experience you understand the place you're you really connect in every level and it's and it's been the most richest life and redefining what rich really means so I really do appreciate both of the points that you're saying and Michelle when you're talking about local 2030 and some of the professors we were just at the Hawaii green growth local 2030 annual summit and it's a great engagement experience because it's Hawaii tourism authority is there travel to change is there and it is everyone who is part of it who understands it as you are a guest in our home mm-hmm I'm here you have a certain kuleana a responsibility in a way of joy though it to be able to participate and be part of and being part of this ohana of our family means that you you're not just here just to take but to also give back and I loved when Bill was sharing his story about oh I'm now sending someone to this program in that program tourism can be that space where people come and visit get to know people see what people are doing want to contribute to that want to then assist with the tiny home want to then assist to make bike pass that then when they return next time they can ride in read books underneath trees that are shade that they planted before and really see their time here as one of a partnership that's really a beginning of that so maybe Michelle you could expand on that a bit of as we're looking at the what you were sharing with Canada and what you both were describing there what we see as the direction that we're headed in ways that we can do this all better perfect this this brings to mind a really nice example from another part of the world from Flanders a region in Belgium a few years ago they were preparing for the 100 year anniversary of world war one and the regional tourism organization was doing all the right things according to um tourism education and best practices to prepare making sure that there were enough hotels and signage and kind of flow of the many thousands of people that they were expecting they created a brand and a logo for the commemoration and kind of communication plans and then at one point a citizen wrote a letter to the editor of regional newspaper saying this is terrible this is awful they're treating it as if this is a trip to disney and this was a tragic terrible event and it's somehow sacred as a result and and it's just all wrong and to their credit this regional tourism organization stopped everything really paid attention gathered the community together to say do we want to do this and and if so on what terms what what would make it okay with us and they went through a process to identify seven principles that had to be true had to be honored if this were to be truly respectful respect was the first one and part of that involved respect for for the facts of history that and recognizing that everyone in the community is a host that everyone could see themselves as host you're you're on the bus you're walking on the street and someone asks you what happened here do you know when there was such a care in the community even people who are not directly involved in tourism but saw themselves as hosts so much care that when the tourism organization in response to this community conversation offered history lessons to the community hundreds of people took part so that they could be faithful and respectful hosts and they they generated ideas for ways to welcome people in a in a really meaningful way ideas that the tourist organization really couldn't have on their own and there are many examples so I find that a beautiful example of the community finding its voice together and deepening their care deepening their connection so it was a force for healing this idea of of hosting each other being hosted by this land and and on that basis choosing together what is the invitation for hosting others this is one example right can I just build on that absolutely go ahead how much I said go ahead oh wait one minute the regeneration I just want to put Michelle's pointing out a regeneration is a rebirth of caring but on a but on a continual basis and the important thing about regeneration that doesn't happen once it is it is meant to be a continual birth life death rebirth birth life death rebirth we all go through any living system goes through senescence death and rebirth we do it in our marriages let's just use that as an example I have an argument with my spouse I have to regenerate that relationship it's not going to be very fun so we do that with ourselves as we grow and how how do we do that with our community we have to be conscious and actually having visitors observe us is a great opportunity to be introspective so there's this dynamic that happens with the visitor if we're truly in reciprocal relationship that we learn from the visitor if nothing else indirectly to to to recollect ourselves and who we are and what what is the uniqueness of our community that we're really offering not just another hotel so I want to because the word regeneration is almost a synonym now for sustainability we just do it right we get the checklist and and that's not what regeneration is about regeneration is about reflection and reconsideration and then rebirthing a new relationship and let's say that we do that every year new year's eve or new year's day whatever day you choose to make new years should be a celebration of what we've learned this past year how we adjust how we go forward and then there's a rebirth of now what we need to focus on because life continually changes that's the use of the effective that's the effective use of the term regeneration is to make us conscious of reflection I'll stop there no I think it's really important and what Michelle was sharing as well is absolutely true in Hawaii now we do see a time of really transformation one that all of us have been asking and promoting but that I believe people are finally listening to and and I remember when the mayor of Maui was giving a speech at the actually community of practice meeting with Hawaii Green Growth and he did say we are not Disneyland you are not here just to have the time of your life you're here to actually contribute and we're connected together because of this time in place and that really is an important point when we look it's necessary to change the nature of travel and it must become a force for good and regenerative risk and leisure does foster collaboration and synergy among all the key stakeholders in our world today and a living thriving planet operates through a global network of local phenomena as you were sharing Bill and for this reason the work of regenerating the world's natural systems can only succeed in particular places using your approaches their creative response to unique processes of life in those places that both of you are talking about Michelle can you share a bit about the future of regenerative tourism the future or potential paths preferred yeah you would like to to engage and to go down that road as we move forward sure I'm thinking about a quote that I saw I read this morning from an article about New Zealand a particular region um Lake Wanaka and and Queenstown um region and how they have brought community together to reimagine how they host each other how they're hosted by the land how they host visitors and and they the article talked about one tourism operator that now refers to itself as a conservation organization powered by tourism like and I like that there's something it's another way of saying we are a force for healing and our means our method or even our excuse in some ways it can be tourism can be hosting so if all of us would somehow see ourselves in that way in this paper that Bill and I wrote we say something like um the times are so dire that we need every sector to put down their tools turn to the world and say these are our skills and resources how can we help so I what I'd love to see in the future is is for that conversation to happen and for the the answer to be really embraced whatever that answer is in the community that every host every organization that's focused on tourism sees itself as a regenerative organization powered by tourism the conversation shifts really fundamentally everywhere and in every community I think it's a a broad answer but something along those lines no that's great and I remember going to Wanaka as well as Wanganui where they actually gave the river the rights of a person and so I'll tell you I think is a great example and working with the Maori people as well as the aboriginals and Torres Strait Islanders they're absolutely crucial as we go forward so I definitely think there are indicators right there are guides that we see the best practices of where we can head Bill would you like to share a bit about the future yeah I'll just say that yeah what we're leading to let's really cut to the chase the world is it the world is in bad shape and it's causing a lot of angst and anxiety what regeneration offers is not just the hope that we can begin to reverse that maybe maybe not but what it demands of us is to think more deeply about what this life is all about and it's a generosity of spirit that's required that really what we're birthing is love so I think that if we understand that the only way we're going to take care of this planet is what we take care of each other ourselves each other and the living the places that we're part of and that's an act of love and if we can actually see it through that lens maybe it would check us and actually find out well that's really what's important I'll think that's enough I think those are really good points because it's about listening it's about learning and then leading with the skill said that each of us have to help improve and add to that place that we're visiting I would say and when we look at it article 24 really does guarantee regenerative rest in leisure for all with even periodic holidays with pay and it's shows that almost grow as human beings for a better way together for our world on a regenerative journey and it's definitely necessary to transfer tourism for the future of Maui and Hawaii as Archie Kaleva was saying a master navigator he said really January 20th is the day that we're going to invite the world to Maui and Lahaina is a vaha is a canoe and right now we're we haven't decided who the captain's going to be who the crew will be but it's inviting everyone to come to talk to share to decide on the director not only of Lahaina and Maui but of Hawaii's future that in a way there's a decolonization there's a decorporatization there's a decarbonization there's a decentralization there's a deciding what we want in a way democratizing our energy systems our economy really combining economy ecology equality and equity to all lead for the same directions going forward so I thank you both for coming and sharing your manao your wisdom and look forward to continue this conversation as we go forward for the future of Maui as well as Hawaii and we really do appreciate your contribution in the work that you do and know that it can provide a very positive space to secure an alternative future that we all desire in this world mahalo nui thank you josh well thank you