 a long good evening and welcome to episode 319 of the private property podcast. I'm your host, Usama Domoakumalo. If you're joining us for the first time, welcome to the only daily property podcast in the country helping you on your property needs. You're certainly in good company, so do make sure that you go to our Facebook or our YouTube pages to catch up on all the great content that we've already brought to your screens. And all our regular viewers on Facebook, on Instagram, as well as on YouTube, welcome back. You know how we do it every single weekday. You and I have an appointment at 7pm, but we tackle a hard property topic and always in conversation with an expert who helps us make better property decisions. It doesn't matter where you are in the property value chain, whether you're looking to buy, to rent, to build, this certainly is a show that you want to make sure you are always tuned in to. And of course always, also great to our website, www.property.co.za, to see some of the great properties that some of your properties, if you're looking to offload an asset or two that's in your portfolio. And of course, one of the great things that you're going to find on our social media pages is the competition that we are running. We are counting down to one million followers on our Facebook page, so do make sure that you have them over there to stand a chance of winning 500 drains in cash daily, right here on the private property park console myself, because I'm on Don't Walk, my love. Now, all you have to do to stand a chance of walking away with that 500 drain in cash is to go to our Facebook group, our Facebook page, rather, make sure you interact with us as often as you can. Share the lives that we have, whether it's the show, of course, the other shows, certainly comment down here below. Make sure to tag your friends in the posts that you put up. And the more of these you do, the higher your odds of standing a chance to walk away with that 500 drain in cash. And once you have entered the competition, this is a big one, because we're seeing people entering, but they don't do this last bit that can secure their place in potentially walking away with the cash prizes. Make sure you're also tuning in live every single weekday at 7pm, because when we announce the winner halfway through the show, we want to make sure that you claim that prize, and later on on the show, then we'll see if the person who won has, in fact, claimed the prize. So you need to be watching us live in order for you to be able to claim the prize. That's a really, really big thing. If you leave it where the person would call out, isn't watching you live and doesn't claim the prize, then the money goes into the money bag and of course rolls over to the following day. We had a lucky winner on Friday, that 2000 rands, because they're both over, so we're back to 500 rands. So do make sure that you are tuned in and waiting, of course, in the halfway mark to see if you might be tonight's lucky winner. And of course, there are also a host of other shows that you can catch on our social media pages. It is a Monday, so you can certainly tune into the Home Shoppers show with Chad later on this evening at 8pm. And it's always on your screens every Monday and Friday, giving you an amazing tour of great properties that you can find on www.privateproperty.co.za. And if Tuesdays and Thursdays, and what brings you the farming podcast, she's always in conversation with people within the agricultural space, and they're always tackling some of the agricultural issues. So if you know that you've got green fingers, so I have an interest in all things farming, that is a show for you. And on Wednesdays, Estie Carson brings us the first time home buyers show, which is always in conversation with people who have not only walked that first time home buying journey, but have gone on to grow their property portfolios from strength to strength. Those are great shows that you can look forward to every single weekdays at 8pm. So they make sure that you're always tuned in, certainly participating and engaging with us, especially on our social media pages. And talking about social media pages and the love that we'll have seen from you, I see that Ugloria Mama Boys is already saying, you know, sending those green hearts and the hashtag home shoppers show and property and your space, your rules. Remember, we love, love, love hearing from you. Thank you very much for that post, Gloria. And I think it's a great way to start our conversation this week, as we know. Being in the middle of COVID and there's so many different things that are happening is to make sure that we own comments that we are going to be keeping. And this evening, I'm in conversation with somebody that we've had on the show. Absolutely love having her on. And we're going to be talking what the future holds for female artisans. And I'm going to be in conversation with Roseanne Kantha, who's a head of human capital at Kandua. Roseanne, good evening. And thank you so much for joining us on the show. Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. It's always a pleasure to be here with you. It's such a pleasure to have you on the show, Roseanne. And I see the love that we're getting on our show this evening. We've got Michelle Beaumarans. We've got Megan from Sculpey. We've got Anelda Everton, who won the last week Friday and was, of course, watching live to claim that prize. Saying good evening, fam and those green hearts. Do keep them coming. Let's down here below on our Facebook page, of course, for many of you who are watching us live. Now, Roseanne, I love this topic, especially because the conversation of artisans is one that's such an ongoing conversation, even at a national level. We're often here, government talking about the importance of having artisans or some of the opportunities that people who finish school are able to access in the event where they want to go into that field. And some don't know about that field. Before we even look at the opportunities that might be there for women and how they can take advantage of it. I think, first, let's take a step back and look at when we talk about an artisan, who are we talking about exactly? Because it's also just that we're at so many people sometimes, and then I'm quite clear about what career path is even possible if they opt to become an artisan. So, great question. I think when people hear the word artisan these days, we think artisanal bread, we think artisanal jam because we're all going to, you know, used to going to these lovely markets and buying home baked goods, but that's not what we're what we're talking about. So when we're talking about skilled artisans, we're talking about people who are carpenters, tool makers, fitters, joiners, mechanics, you know, plumbers, etc. Those are the kinds of people that we are, that we are talking about. And I think I'm so glad that you started off there because we really are in that, going to the different markets and everything has to be artisanal, artisanal bread, coffee, all sorts of things. And so it's very easy for people who hear that, you know, live in that world for them to almost automatically think it has to do something with that. When we then look at the demand for, you know, the roles that you've pointed out, is there even a demand? And I ask this because there's certainly a school of thought that's like, well, there isn't really that much demand. We shouldn't, you know, nudge people to go in that direction. Perhaps you must just go sort of the university route, as opposed to wanting to become an artisan. What are some of the numbers or certainly the sentiment when it comes to the demand for that kind of work? So there is definitely a demand for that kind of, for that kind of work. And as a business that's can do it, we saw that with the start of the, with the pandemic. And I remember one of our, one of our top guys in the business said, you know, somebody's toilet's always going to break, somebody's always going to have a leak somewhere. So we'll always have a need for, for these kinds of jobs to be done. And when you have a need for the jobs to be done, you need the skilled workers who are able to do, who are able to do the work. Now, in 2021, we're seeing woman takeover, absolutely everything, we're everywhere. And I love seeing that. But this is one space in particular, where I'm seeing not seeing as many women as I would like to, as I would like to see. And I attribute that to, and this is just my personal experience, obviously from working at Kandua, that there is a lot of unconscious bias that exists towards women in this, in the space. And I've even, I've even had it, if you say to me, if you had said to me two or three years ago that you're going to send a female plumber my way, I'd be like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. What's happening here? Because how I grew up and what I'm used to, I said, men do these kinds of jobs and men do this, men do this work. So I think that it starts with us, first of all, to really check ourselves and that unconscious bias that exists in our minds, so that we can open the door and open the space for women to enter and do this kind of work. And you know, when you raise the issue of that unconscious bias, Rosanne, it's such an important one because there are certain jobs that we're used to seeing certain types of people in and whether the type is based on gender, based on race, we're just so accustomed to these kinds of jobs or this kind of work is predominantly being done by men or people from a particular racial group that even when we slowly start unlearning some of our own biases and recognizing them, it becomes so important to be like, actually, it's not that these skills sort of come pre-packaged, you know, based on your gender or your race, but it's because of the way that we've been socialized. And I think part of me can already think of some of the, you know, challenges that then a lot of artists or women face in particular. And I'm keen to hear from you, Rosanne, what some of the barriers of entry potentially may be. I mean, as you were thinking, a part of me was thinking of how there might be some women who want to go into this field and, you know, be a component. I mean, the fact that you were talking about this, you know, the last time you and I were on was that oftentimes even in our own homes, when we have a service provider coming in, we know that typically be a man and you're really wanting to sort of make plans to make sure that you're as safe as possible and not potentially put your life at risk. I can already imagine what being then a female contractor, you know, may potentially look like where you're not going into somebody's house. And you need to almost make sure that you might be going perhaps with a male who's accompanying you just for safety reasons, because unfortunately, it's the reality of, you know, our times. So I'm keen to hear what the potential barriers of entry are for artisanal type work, particularly for women. Yeah. So I'm glad that you mentioned that, because that really is a big thing. And I would say all of the women that I've spoken to one on our platform have experienced some sort of sexual harassment when it comes to the work and in the workspace. So besides the fact that this is unconscious bias that exists before even as a female walk through the door, you already think that I can't do the job. So now when I get I have to worry about being sexually being sexually harassed. And then then there are the men, my peers, who don't think that I belong there, who think that, you know, jobs like these are awful, awful men only. And it's this exclusive boys only boys only club, when as a woman, I am more than capable of doing the job. And then there are things like existing networks. Now, because men have been doing this work for so long, there are these networks that exist. And, you know, support, there's the support that exists that are almost exclusively for for men. And it's very difficult for women to infiltrate this to infiltrate the space. And when I think about that it's layer on layer on layer, we often talk about these very same sentiments that you're sharing with us when we when we look at, you know, race and some of the challenges that certain racial groups face. And then now when you have to bring in, you know, gender into the mix and the reality that you might be a black woman who wants to, you know, be an artist and take advantage of, of, you know, some of the opportunities that may be out there. Then there's also that, you know, added layer of, you know, challenges that you effectively are going to be faced with. I want us to go for a quick break, Rosanna. And this break we're going to be announcing who the potential lucky winner of that 500 grand cash prize. Of course, we're running a competition on our Facebook pages. We count down to 1 million followers. So do make sure that you engage with us as often as you can tag your friends, share the post that we put up. And of course, you stand a chance of walking away with that 500 grand in cash. If your name gets called up, you have to comment down here below to claim your prize while the show is still on and failing which it's going to roll over to tomorrow evening. And we'll see if the person that we call tomorrow is going to be watching. So the big thing, if you know you've entered, you know, engage with us regularly, make sure that you continue to watch the show in case we call your name. I see some of the love that we're getting on our Facebook page. I'll read through your comments in just a bit. Let's see who the lucky winner might be for the 500 grand cash prize. And that potential lucky winner this evening is Jamena Glovo. Jamena Glovo, you have until the end of the show to drop us a message and let us know if you are here and watching live that 500 grand in cash is up for grabs. So Jamena Glovo. And I'm going to assume it's a woman because of the names. We plead with you if you're watching us to make sure that you drop us a message down here below to claim that prize. Now going to some of your comments on Facebook page. We've got here Chanel's Parisian. My dad taught me how to do my cars, to do my car's oil, lead the brakes and change the tire. We even helped when he was belting. I don't even know what some of that is Chanel. I know the oil change. I don't know what bleeding is. I know brakes because, you know, we use them all the time. I have no idea what the belting is. So that gives you a sense of how better I am with cars. And I'm so glad that this is something that you were taught from my young age. I can barely change a tire. I've seen it done once in my head. I think I'll be able to pull it off. But I never had to do it. And I hope I never actually have to do it. And more of your comments coming through on our Facebook page, we've got Michelle Van Royen saying, I love your podcasts. Awesome information and helps us understand it better. Thank you very much there, Michelle, for that love. I want to find out from the women, you know, how many of you can do some of the tasks that we typically say, you know, a male task. So things like what Chanel has pointed out. So things like changing tires, especially when it comes to cars. And I will confess that department and disease, it's not my portion. I will drive it and I will take it to the garage in poor petrol. But anything beyond that, I want nothing to do with it. But one of you at home certainly do dabble in what we would typically look at as you know, stuff that they do, whether it's in the car or even at home. I know a lot of the, you know, a lot of us are getting DIY savvy in our homes and doing all kinds of job jobs within our homes that typically would have been something that may do. I love working with the drill every so often. So I'm one of those property, you know, entrepreneurs who gets their hands dirty sometimes when I work in some of my properties. And so that's something I can do. So there I will get my hands dirty. But when it comes to anything that has to do with cars, that's not my portion. So do you share with us down here below if you're a woman and of course you, there's some of these skills that you are actually quite good at, the way that Chanel has pointed out some of the ones that she does. Now, Rosanna, I want to bring you back in. I think when we then look at the, and you've already shared, you know, how even some of the women that you deal with at CanDo, I have pointed out some of the challenges that they have. I think I'm certainly keen to hear from you what the potential opportunities and some of the possibilities that are there for, you know, women who are artists because there probably are some of them who have the interest in going into that field and are very aware of the potential risks, like what we've already said, but still don't have a good sense of what are some of the possibilities that are available for them out there. So the one thing that I think is very important to quickly mention is that if we look at the enrollment figures at T-Vent colleges as it stands, around 45% of the students currently enrolled in programs like civil engineering, construction, electrical, infrastructure, etc., are female. So the onus is on us, first of all, to make sure that we support these young women in whichever way we possibly, in whichever way we possibly can. So as a listener, if you're out there and you're an artist's owner, and you know, to take on some apprentices, please, please, please open your doors and welcome these young people, specifically the women, because they need it. What I'm also seeing is that there's just amazing pockets of support right now for the women amongst each other, which is so, so, so amazing. Now that can do it. Our key is just to be intentional about helping women succeed in this space. And we feel that if we don't address these barriers head-on, we are going to continue seeing this gender imbalance in the artisanal sector. Now for us, it's really as simple as just engaging with the women on our platform and finding out what is it that you need, where can we help? And I've been using this, I've been using this example, because I just want to show people how simple it is. One, ask the question. We can't as a business be making decisions for our woman and deciding what it is that they're struggling with and where we can intervene. So our philosophy has always been, one, be intentional and speak to the woman, bring them around the table and find out what they need. So the one example that I quickly want to highlight is when we had one of these meetings with our woman, the one thing that they said is that they just want support. And I said support in what way, in what shape or form can we help and we can assist. Just provide us with a platform where we can just talk to each other. And that platform was as simple as we created this WhatsApp group for the ladies on our platform, where they could just offload. Because sometimes that's all you need, right? You just want an ear. You just want somebody to listen. Now what has happened with this is that now we've got women talking to each other. We've got women just organically collaborating with each other. So I'm in construction. I'm doing this project. I need a plumber. Hey, I've got a plumbing business or I've got this business, this, that and the other. And this is what we're seeing happening on our platform, on our platform at the moment, is that women are just coming together supporting one another and collaborating with each other, which is really, really amazing. The other thing that's the other thing that's also happening is we have partnered with the Ellen Gray Makers. And we've come up with this Makers Hub program in collaboration with Blue Lever Education. And what Makers Hub is, it's an incubation program that focuses on enabling artists and businesses to formalize growth and succeed and includes peer groups, mentorship, support, et cetera, et cetera. And there's a big focus on bringing women into that space. Yeah. So there's a lot of exciting things that we're doing to aid a woman in the artisanal space. I love the exciting developments that are happening behind the Space Roseanne because I think it's testimony to how there are so many different things that can be done. Some don't need money, so direct money. And you tend to find that more often than not, the pressure point may not be money at that moment. And I'm going to engage to that right now because, and you've already started, shouldn't like to what some of the women need. I want us to actually explore when you are asking the women in terms of what help they need and certainly what you can do to help what some of the major themes were in terms of the kind of help that they needed. Because I think that would also help even men themselves to get a sense of when you are in this field, these are some of the pressure points that may be there, or that this was a pressure point that you probably weren't aware of that you're facing in your business. So we're going to get to that just now. I want to go through some of the great comments that we're getting from the women who are watching us as I said on our Facebook, Paige, I want you to share. I want the women to share with us some of the things that they're able to do that would typically would ascribe to men or it's usually men that would do these things. And this is, of course, based on that great comment that we got earlier on from Chanel sharing some of the things that her dad taught her. And we've got on our Facebook page Irene Lasagna saying, I can fit a septic tank and I can unblock my own drain. And another one also on our Facebook page coming through from Anelda Eviton saying I can paint, change a tire, and throw cement. Every time anybody mentions cement, people who follow me on social media, I'm always buying cement. So just about anything you can think about where cement is involved or concrete is involved. I mean, I literally know the scientific composition of concrete, what kind you would need for what kind of projects. So that's right up my alley. Those are things that I'm certainly able to do. And of course, Rosanne, when you were speaking to the women have already highlighted how it can be as simple as creating a platform. And it can be on WhatsApp, but it doesn't even need to be a special different platform. But women are given these opportunities to be able to have the conversations. And sometimes you really just want somebody to offload on and you're not looking for, okay, now let's have a three hour workshop session. But when you're in conversation, I know that this is one of those continuous things. So it's not going to be a once open and I mean, I once offered to leave the women. What were some of the major issues that women highlighted they need to help with? And because I think that's actually a big thing being able to also just say, this is actually what as a business woman, I require help with. So the first thing that comes up for me, just in my experience dealing with a woman, is that we need allies, we need allies in the form of, you know, the men who are part of this artisanal network as well. And when I say an ally, I don't only mean an ally by, you know, what I say, yes, I'm an ally to women, you really show you are an ally to women in the artisanal space by how you show up as a man in the artisanal space. So when a woman is coming on to your job site, it is, you know, showing that same level of respect that you would show, you know, a man when a woman is coming into your network or there's an opportunity to do work with women, that is how you show that you really truly are an ally to women in the space. So that is number one. And then I think secondly is this unconscious bias that we spoke about at the beginning of our conversation because a lot of women, if I can just take it back also to the Makathap program, you know, when we approached the woman on Kandewa in particular to form part of this really, really amazing initiative, there was a lot of resistance from the woman and I couldn't understand why. This is such an amazing opportunity. Why are you not grabbing it with both hands? And when we sat down and we spoke to our woman, they said, look, it's just going to be a bunch of men in a room anyway. And I'm just going to get the same kind of reception I always get. And I'm, I'd rather miss out, I'd rather miss out on potential opportunities than put myself in that, put myself in that space. And we really needed to, you know, work with our woman and then also work with our men so that we're sure that the woman that we're bringing into the space, our men, they are, they are ready. And they understand what it means to be an ally to women in the space. And that's an important note, right, especially to the men who are listening right now. We've got a lot of men who tune in on the show is that more often than not, you need to learn when it's your time to, you know, to speak and when it's your time to not, not to speak, you know, men also just do have that tendency oftentimes to hijack the mic and, and then hug the mic and, you know, stay there quite a, for a long time. So I think there's certainly certain spaces, even in your workspace, I think never mind trying to be an ally to women who are artisans, but even in your workspace, learning to read the room, learning to get a sense of when are women speaking, when are women not speaking. And I think when it comes to that, there's actually just such, I have to share this one because you've raised it, you know, Rosanne, there's actually great research that was done on this particular issue where they basically looked at a lot of, I think it was college students and even a lot of the different conferences that we attend. They tend to find that when, you know, when the first speaker or the first person to ask the question is a man, the more who keep following our men and you tend to not have as many women interacting and more often than not, the men have kind of, I'll say, set the tone for how that conversation is going to go. And what they found was one of the ways to sort of boost engagement from women in particular is that when a woman is one of the first few to, you know, raise a point, more women tend to raise their hands and raise issues that were sometimes not even brought onto the table. And so it really is to everybody's benefit to create that kind of space where, you know, women can be, you know, raise their hands or talk. I mean, I used to look at this especially in class where often the men would kind of talk without even raising their hand and you'll make comments. Whereas women would still want to, you know, raise your hand a little bit. And I think it's one of those things that even us as women, I'll put the challenge back to us that when you find yourselves in that space and there's something you want to say, sort of raising your hand sometimes, say it, you know, we're in that kind of environment where something like that happens. And so I think that's such an important one to note. But before I let you go this evening then, you know, what are some of the future possibilities for women who are either on the fence or already artisans themselves and probably thinking, oh man, maybe this wasn't the best career decision. I should maybe switch. What are some of the future possibilities that they should be aware of going forward? So not to sound cliche or anything, but this really is the truth. And it's coming from the bottom of my heart that the possibilities for us as women in this space are endless. It really, really is. It's a lot easier now, even though we are not where I would want us to be in 2021. But it certainly is a lot easier than it was 15 or even 20 years, 20 years ago. And I'm incredibly proud to be working at a place at Kandua where it's so important for us to genuinely foster a diverse and inclusive workplace at Kandua. And that filters down to absolutely everyone. And I can see how that is filtering down even to the pros we call our artisans or our platform pros. It's even filtering down to the pros on our platform. And I'm hearing these amazing stories come back, you know, with the men are saying, you know, these conversations and these interactions have changed my life. It's changed how I show up at home. It's changed how I show up, you know, towards my wife, towards my children in my home, which means that the trajectory of lives are being changed. So I implore women who are thinking about, you know, considering this as a career path, please, please, please go for it. Absolutely go for it. They are support popping up in various different ways. And I can see how things are changing, you know, in front of my, in front of my very eyes. So the possibilities are endless. The possibilities are endless. That's such a great note to leave it on, Roseanne. And the one thing that I will say, unfortunately, our winner, Jermaine and Raoul did not raise their hand while we were on. So we're going to have a roll over and we're going to have 1000 round in the money bag tomorrow evening. Remember, if you enter the competition, make sure that you watch the live in order to claim your prize. But we're going to leave it there this evening. Roseanne, thank you so much for joining us on the show. It's always such a pleasure to have you. It's a pleasure. Always great to chat. Always, always great to chat. And that is Roseanne, the head of Human Care. You can look forward to the home shopper's show this evening at 8 p.m. So do make sure that you set that appointment so that you can stay home and stay safe.