 Last day of the sessions, I appreciate you coming here. Last session doesn't mean I won't give it short. We'll make sure that we use 45 minutes at least. And then we'll open up the session for all these questions. We have got an amazing panel today. I'd like to invite my panel, so let's start with Mike Lam. You, sir? No, I'm doing the research. Holly Ross. Can you please step on the stage, please? And Adia Jam. You say it? Please. So, the class is India's learning of the consumption to contribution, culture, and the road ahead. This is going to be a panel session, I've already seen. Let me introduce myself. I'm Piyush Podab. I'm director of professional services at X11. I've been with you before since 2008. And I've been giving some talks on this topic, which is India's journey from consumption to contribution. For most of those talks, there were talks in London, Dupar Camp, London, Bangalore, Kepur, Tehrkrap. Most of those talks were about the internal perspective of what we're doing, our credentials, our validations. I took the opportunity of going to Asia to get an external validation on the whole thing. And, again, from a global perspective as to where we are, how does the world think we're doing good, not good, what are the challenges that we face, and what can we really learn from experiences and in thoughts, economies and kind of like here. And I'm hoping to have some great takeaways for all of us as part of the Indian community. Dupar Khan Asia has been a great milestone. We're going to need good views of similar milestones going forward as well. Welcome, you once again. I'll be your moderator. And I'd like the panelists to please introduce themselves, although they don't need any introduction, really. But, yeah, Michael, please. Is this working? Cool. So, I'm Mike Lam. I work for Pfizer. Pfizer standardized on Drupal about four years ago. Actually, it's pretty much exactly four years ago to the day now. And over that time, we've built, we've built over a thousand websites on Drupal. When we first started and selected Drupal, we had about eight people in India working with us in India, and that's grown to close to 200 people now. So we've worked extensively with people, with teams in India, to build our Drupal sites. It's kind of weird being back in this room. I was literally here for the camp last year, which is also fantastic. So it's a bit strange being back here. And I'm not Megan Sanaki, but I speak for her today, much to her chagrin. I'm Holly Ross. I'm the executive director of the Drupal Association. And I'm excited about this part of the conversation at the association in particular right now. We're trying to think about what are the metrics that are indicators of the health of the Drupal project. And the contribution is at the heart of that. And we're really trying to understand the full broad spectrum of contribution from code to documentation to camps and all the ways that you can volunteer and support the Drupal community. So I know we'll learn a lot from this, but we can't apply our work. Awesome. Hi, I'm Jen. I'm Jen. Hi. Hi, I'm Jen. I've been working with Drupal since 2005, which means it's a remarkably long slice of my life at this point. And I was a very early employee at AQA. I have the privilege now to be in developer relations at AQA as the evangelist. And so my job is actually to try and figure out ways to make Drupal developers better. And I've been really, really heavily involved in the community. And it's been an incredible pleasure to watch the Indian community grow and flourish and become really, really important contributors. I have also been quite intensely involved at the intersection between Drupal and business in many, many ways, and especially people in government. So I've spoken to a bunch of government events in the last few years, and talked with people in that space. And I've got some fairly strong opinions about how open-source Drupal can help us defend and sustain our local economies. And that's what I think. That's sort of the main message I want to get out during this today. And when we start to ask the questions, let's try to understand the audience, you know, so that we can ask the right questions and we can answer appropriately and more relevant. So if you have a show of hands, to see how many of you are community members, you know, you may have a grid code, you may have participator in an event, organize, or whatever. All right. That was more than half of that. How many of you are new to Drupal, you know, trying to check out Drupal for the first time? Awesome. Welcome, gentlemen. And how many of you have been contributors? Members are finding the contributors who have actually contributed at least one patch, at least one event organized, or stuff like that. Awesome. Thank you. We have a set of questions that we'll be asking and talking about. Are there any expectations, any specific goals, any challenges you guys are looking for so that we can dive at our conversations towards that? We definitely would have an audience question section up to be Mr. Kothinsata. Anyway. Anybody? All right. There is more contribution towards the community. And I think Professor Phatak here always says that, you know, India is a country of, you know, downloaders and, you know, there's not enough upload happening. So, any suggestions on that? I'd be very happy to take that, I guess. Okay, I agree. Yeah, that's the whole idea. So, you know, uploading before, you know, downloading to uploading, really. So, yeah, thanks for the interview. Let's start with a very, very fundamental question kind of broad, and perhaps going to answer you as well. I'm listening to the panel. What's your impression of the Indian group and community when compared to the global perspective and compared to the global group and community out there? How do you, you know, where do you see us? What do you actually feel about us, right? You know we are part of the community, but how much? Mike, please. Sure, so, um, yeah, I hadn't seen this question so I'm just thinking through it for a moment. So, I would say it's still early days, but it's growing extremely, extremely rapidly and there's a massive amount of opportunity here. So, we've learned a lot and hopefully we can share a lot of our learnings over the last few years today. So, the impression is there's a huge amount of opportunity, there's a huge amount of talent here already working in Drupal. So, yes, the discussion is going to be about how we impactualise on that and then use that to make the rest of this opportunity. Okay. And there's a lot of program here at Portland Palace where anybody can fill up. I'm excited. So, I know a lot of the communities around the globe pretty well and I'm incredibly excited to get to know the Indian community and my first impressions are there's more energy here than almost anywhere else. More younger developers and incredible outreach into schools talking with a guy today who's organised a program. So, students learn Drupal while they're studying and come straight out into jobs. All of this is missing, frankly, in Europe and it's young and it's exciting and it's energetic and I'm very, very much like to come out here and be a part of this as often as I can. So, I think that the Indian community has a lot to teach for the rest of us at this point to be perfectly honest. Wow. I understand. Jamila is committed. I think from what I've seen we have been able to get into schools, colleges, universities much better than what limited experience I have from other countries and I think we're not really talking about contributions over here and that's something I'd like to touch upon when the question comes up but other than that I think what Jam said it's a young community and that gives us an opportunity to mold it into a community of artists which is great to see so many participants in the community but also contributors as well. Awesome. Thanks. So, you know, when I was looking on these questions and I came across a community we've been sure to be modeled by a community and they had a few parameters on which you can be assessed we've been sure to be assessed and provide certain circumstances as to where are we going how can you possibly have this some of those some of those parameters are in the case of the guys from the community strategy, leadership culture community management content and programming and matrices and metrics that anyone wants to show them one of these parameters I said against a strategy leadership culture community management content and programming and matrices and measurements I do really like this question out there yeah I do think when you look at those areas strategy and leadership and some other things that you said when you look at those areas I see all of those things in the community here for short you have leaders all over the place people who are taking it upon themselves to create camps to mentor people to cover all those bases I'm definitely an outsider coming in here but the one thing I think I've heard over and over again is that there is a challenge in that India is so vast geographically and so there are lots of communities where you're seeing these qualities emerge but what is maybe lacking is a unified place for all of those things to come together to represent India with a capital i as opposed to Bangalore or Hyderabad that will be an interesting place to think about for India because just like cheer numbers you guys are going to win the game eventually if people's a game without that but it would be really amazing to see what would happen if you could figure out how to overcome that I'd like to call it that the Indian Drupal community is still in its infancy but Drupal communities in India are pretty mature it's like what is that there is the glue that is needed between all the different communities or the communities in India and that has to be strengthened that has to be monitored better and I'm not saying that we're not going in the right direction but it's still in very very early stages I'm meaning about work to make it so that we can actually call it an Indian Drupal community awesome, thank you so much for that and this might be a question for you to send it back to you from the start first but as I said it's an open plan where you really see us and the so called scale of consumption to contribution okay, well I mean I can answer in numbers so we know that India is the second largest traffic source to Drupal Odoaji Drupal Odoaji has the second largest pool of users from India but we don't have enough we're not even in the top 10 contributors to Drupal core or even corporate modules now this is only speaking of core contribution you know, I think if you're talking about non-core contributions, events, brains and so I don't have any metrics to say that we're on so and so please but I think we're pretty good over there the great organizing events Mumbai saw 650 plus at the last time we saw 500 plus Delhi, 500 plus, 500 plus I think and Pune, 200 Pune I've been doing but yeah, it's a general trend camps usually attract 1,200 people easily marketing effort, for example I was involved in Ganglok camp and we had only about a month of marketing ahead of it and this was the first camp but we're still able to pull out 500 plus people so we don't we're pretty good over there we are able to pull numbers, we are able to attract people to Drupal like I said earlier schools are used it's a definitely great thing contribution is a different story and I personally have seen a lot of excitement building up in various organizations over the school years I've had many people come to me and ask me how can I get into contributions how can I build this chain of organizations so we're getting there so I would say it's obviously it's still early days but a couple of facts, a couple of things that are happening so Dries mentioned in his keynote that many, many big sites that we all know about being on Drupal soon big famous ones who have built in India and many large organizations who have been working with very large teams in India for a very long time these companies, many of these large companies move to Drupal and build in thousands of different sites so they're being built here but there's a big behavior script shift that needs to happen around building these kind of sites these large organizations have been outsourcing this kind of work to India for a long time working with people things that build these sites but you can visit the facilities that they're working in it's not building the behaviors that will immediately lead to a counter-contribute code so for example these facilities are built to protect both the companies are writing their shumies for prior to it so if I could visit any of these large facilities and I carry a hard part there it'll be taken off me before I go back because I don't want to be taking this code away it's so precious to these companies so moving from that behavior to okay you're going to write this code for the same client you're going to upload it to the internet and give it away for free to people and you're going to contribute to the community that's a huge leap so in terms of the scale there's a huge amount of work that's going on here right now a huge amount of talent working in the Drupal community but I think the shift needs to come from these companies in hiring the people they're working with to make the shift as you do that you might see you might see and you're rocking at the scale actually pretty quickly because the work force is there they're talented they're already working on these things they may just in many cases aren't empowered to do it once you empower them to do it then you've talked about when people can and want to do it how you encourage them to actually get them to do it it's part of the daily job the first step is to have more of a growth basis to really get the potential of that that's really what we're in anyone else so Drupal has been growing actually that's understatement Drupal has grown and a million websites more than 2% of the internet can power back to more than 30% of the top 100,000 websites can power to do it they have been growing an option across multiple world markets and industries it certainly has come along we understand it's the same but we still have a huge problem globally it's global talent shortage right now India's IT talent you know it's huge it's ever growing probably the biggest in the world can really address that problem can really leverage this opportunity what do you as leaders of businesses outside and communities outside and initiatives outside see what do you see from that side the challenges that need to overcome so on areas of improvements in order to leverage this opportunity how do you think we can really move forward to becoming a top leader in couple of months years or whatever it may be the line for that perspective so on the thought leadership space which I think is a little bit different than the talent shortage but on the thought leadership space I would actually say there's nothing that the Indian community needs to do you have plenty of thought leadership and what really needs to happen is within the project it's full of wonderful people but there's a strong western bias people who are just really shocked that there was so much contribution once we could see the numbers there was so much contribution from India and so I think it's incumbent upon us as the association and the community as a whole to make sure that we continue to bring ourselves here to understand what's happening here how we're innovating here and that we're making sure that we're making room at the table for the Indian community to participate from being able to highlight case studies on people.org to making sure that you've got leadership roles in the project so now that we can see the contribution from this community more clearly I think we have work to do to overcome our own western bias and make sure that the Indian community is more included in all those ways because I mean I've heard so many amazing stories here and we just need to find ways to share them better It's kind of how along a similar line on the stories I've heard since I've been here just hearing about the education that's happening and taking Drupal into many places and translating training materials for many many people to get access to it it's very difficult to then come here and say we've got some answers for you I've had a huge amount of an extremely impressed by the things that are already happening It's been an eye-opening and a great experience to learn that since this week One thing that you can see I think is to in terms of bringing people out of the community we need to hear what is helpful for you in terms of getting started where do you get stuck in getting started so we had a conversation yesterday about issue queues and they are finding an issue and they said there's lots of written words about that but it's not actually not helpful for us and we have lots of competent English speakers but the thing that really helps is that we can see it too so could we get a video where we just walk through how the issue queues work and we could see it and hear it at the same time and we would get it It exists There are some, but they're not super easy to find There's stuff, but we just need to hear where the stumbling blocks are so we need the community to raise their hands and say it would be better if we could have this so that we can bring that up For instance, I didn't know about this and we had this discussion and it came out so it is great It's great that that's how we know Alright The next question This is again about us being large in the number scale So in every India and Asia in fact is large in terms of numbers and sizes and so is the growing group of community Now the question is for such large and growing communities like these do you guys suggest more people with less contribution for it I know there has been a conversation on group a lot of art on this matter and there was a long thread for that More people with less contributions per head with widespread awareness because there are so many people in a few hundred thousand people doing one batch maybe Versus consolidated contributions lesser people but more focused approach towards solving complex challenges and bigger problems What do you suggest for Indian community from that time So at a fairly general level for contributions to be sustainable I feel like it needs to be across many many people So for example we're talking about the Drupal talent shortage and also talking about the number of people who are in India working on Drupal So I think for this to be sustainable those people who spend their lives or their day job in Drupal they should be contributing in a huge amount of contributing as well So that's kind of the answer with the first option in terms of it should be many many people so a very very broad range of people contributing in some way I think that's sustainable and that can have a huge amount of value I think at the same point for some focused initiatives also when you're trying to push a particular initiative forward you do need dedicated people I don't think it's sustainable to say Drupal is only going to be pushed forward by people who are completely dedicated and all they do is contribute all day Of course that's important for many things but I think for this to really be sustainable the broad base of Drupal development is being developed is being trained here and working here I think they should already be able to contribute To some degree I'm going to repeat what you said but there are two broad schools of thought and two ways that we can show have been successful so far and I think that they're absolutely applicable in India and probably everywhere else people like Lauri Eskola and Tiffany Faiz very very publicly support getting as many people as possible in and doing what they can and through mentorship and our community's ability to bring new people in and get them excited about making a difference it's like in any sales driven company you bring in 100 junior sales people without looking too hard at who they are and what they can do and out of that some number will fall off and some number will succeed and some will be super stars and it's quite hard to tell going in who's going to be the superstar so we need a really solid if we keep it in business terms we need a solid pipeline of new talent and if we keep it in more community terms we need a really broad base to build our community on that's essential and we'll fail without that because it's a big part of the category of people if you look at Linux for example or some of the other open source projects there are very hard problems that you need to wrap your head around for a whole day or a whole week or a whole year to fix be it cash tax and Google aid be it some of the other big blockers that we had and I'm really really grateful that companies like Acre and Chapter 3 and others have stepped up to the plate and hired people just to knuckle down and think about the hard stuff and I suspect that we need both I suspect that we need a growing community and an increasing professionalism in at least core development if not modular development probably both and this is pretty on the way to doing this very very well as we said before with the schools and universities the very large Drupal practices here whether it be TCS, whether it be your team whether whoever I would love to have some sort of an auditing process or a self you know reporting something where contribution becomes more important in day to day development workflows and I'm actually working with a guy working with a guy working with a guy in Holland who wrote a thesis for his university studies about how a contribution in open source companies works and doesn't work and it's pretty fascinating and he experimented at his job doing a couple of different really simple steps in your absolutely normal commit code test it to include contribution in a very very low friction way and we're going to be doing some presentations about that this year so that's kind of a third stream I guess is work contribution into your daily routine right so that's what we're just doing and in fact there's a takeaway right away that this is what a community leaders in India that what we're doing organizing these camps having a lot of people, students pushing them encouraging them to even start doing the first that was contribution let's keep doing that the way we are these would automatically perhaps even be bigger and larger as the day they get to do that any one I was just concerned it's obviously in fact the same pattern for contributing to organizing events like this right so the last year at the camp last year it was a huge amount of energy that went into organizing organizing that thing it was great to see the same discussion about people dedicated to committing code when those people are doing part of a daily job the very same model happened last year there were people, some on our team from some other companies who through that period were absolutely focused on just organizing organizing the event supported by a complete team of other people contributing as volunteers to the event right and they never had an absolute last and I hope the same model will happen there as in you'll find a few as you suggested really enjoyed it and they want to be able to push to be the person to organize the next camp or be more involved in organizing the next camp as these things are growing and it takes a lot of a lot of work to get them growing and get them running so I think it's exactly the same model there for these organizations or organizing these events as well as the straight code contribution so please touch upon that a lot this week I've made this step I feel like I didn't do the con but it behooves us to remember that code and patches are not actually our total app but we really are a team of smart people solving hard problems together so we need people to do the code I think we also need the communicators and we need organizers and we need lawyers and contribution is not only code right so hmm so please keep that in mind consider yourself a contributor if you've downloaded this stuff there's a lot more than just writing patches excellent that actually that was my second question which was code or non-code based contributions what you suggest and either like balance so thank you Jaim for your permission sorry I wrote you both that's why you don't have to anyone that's one of the people that I haven't asked yet from the community yeah from the community so Jaim pointed out there are a lot of ways to get engagement from the community that aren't about code and they're really important for the community because the community is not a bunch of code writing robots it turns out you guys are human and you need human experiences you need ways to learn you need ways to connect you need ways to walk away from Google sometimes and get a little healthy balance those are all things that the community needs and so finding ways to contribute along those areas is really important to keeping the community healthy what I also think is really neat we put a lot of emphasis more emphasis on that here than any other project that I've talked to and I haven't experienced every open source community for sure but we put a lot of emphasis on that in Drupal when we talk about it where we fall apart is that we don't do a really good job of tracking that or showing that or recognizing that non-code contribution so there's a lot more that we can see there that the association wants to help the community help us out and show among our many many long list of priorities so we want to be able to show that more but I also just want to point out that that non-code contribution is really important to you as as humans but also as professionals because there's no coder that gets to work all by themselves in a box and never interact with another human right and when you come and help run a camp you understand what it's like now to be on the marketing team right and so when you have to work with the marketing team and your company you they don't seem like foreign animals from another planet right like I get you now right so it's a great way to grow your skillset your own professional skillset and be able to come into any your next professional situation as a more well rounded professional person so I really encourage people it can be very uncomfortable to try to step out of your role and take those take those on but I think it can be really rich and rewarding for you yes I want to say that when we say right talents what I have seen what I've experienced myself is that the right talents just builds itself you know if you want to organize a camp there are people who step up to help you and that happened in time we had a great team and we just had a month since it was the first camp which was during the venue and everything but once that happened everything rolled along and of course we all kind of stepped out of our comfort zones now and then I just remember the time one month again that was a month I had this left but yeah like you said it's a very important experience you know you are breaking out of a shell you're learning more things and again it doesn't come in again you know from which kind of comments on the previous questions as well are the contribution part of things you know again not just a quote contribution but non quote contributions as well I find again this is from my personal experience I find that contributing helps you learn a very very common idea over here is that okay please teach me first okay how should I please tell me about Drupal 8 and I'll try to work on the issue here yes yes exactly and that's something which I always try to communicate you know you don't need to you can issue, you can whatever issue you think that appeals to you take it, work on it if you don't get it you'll be here to help you and that sometimes works, sometimes doesn't work and we need to get better at it we need to get better at understanding that it's not about that you learn the whole thing let you learn whole Drupal 8 all the objects and then okay I'm getting into the issue here it doesn't work like that I learn Drupal 8 by starting to contribute and that's the message I want to see get across and all the spins we have and all the meters we have all the plans we have alright so we need to find the right balance based on their own dynamics or by themselves don't forget documentation is a great way to contribute too the list goes on and on and on so without Drupal projects often the challenges in being successful is not the technology, the technology works great and then when you come to these events and you see how fast the technology is moving forward that's great as well there are so many people who are contributing to these events with disciplines around project management testing, all these things go on and on as these skills relate directly to Drupal projects there are loads of people contributing to these as well there are a lot of questions a lot of new skills come to Drupal just keeps on going if you know that's the same list I could have said you as well there are also sessions alright that's a good question so many ways unfortunately our admin interface is perfect so I'm really free to see here so have you ever contributed before? no you come to the sprints tomorrow well if you come to the sprints tomorrow they'll get you set up and I think it's a great way to learn how it all works there's a getting started session they'll get you started as advertised and I want to emphasize that they're called contribution sprints they're not code sprints and that's a really important choice that Jess, over there Jess XJM and Kathy Day who we owe so much to in the community that they made because it's not all about code but you can come and come to the getting started sprints and the next thing they do is they help you understand what is that panoply of options so if US is my thing how can I find all the issues related to US that are in the Drupal issue queue that I can go contribute to so they'll help you do that tomorrow can I follow up on that? So I'd say the usability talent is actually in Drupal Core it's one of our weak areas right now we don't do the best job of even when we know that a usability problem exists we don't do the best job of actually just fixing it so if you're interested in contributing to Core please don't take photos of me if you want to contribute to usability I'd like to introduce you to Goyan Summers who's here he's one of our usability maintainers and also if you haven't met Angie she's a product manager for Drupal 8 they can sort of like I would come to the first time for Drupal workshop will be interesting and valuable for you because you'll learn some of the tools that developers use to contribute patches and you'll learn about how to use the issue that's helpful when you're interacting to have that conversation learning alone like that will maybe be a sad experience for you so definitely talk to Goyan talk to Angie and like how your art contributes to and it would be really valuable thank you also also Ann Gabber one of the things that you can really help with tomorrow is leading and participating in translation sprints so if you know English and some other language like Latin or Hindi or whatever other language that you happen to know then you can just use it as an interface and translate whenever in Drupal and that would be very beneficial for the rest of the country to be able to use Drupal in native languages so we are looking for people to lead sprints to their respective language and to participate in that tomorrow I hope you're doing well excellent so you know thank you Goyan and Jess I should just make me realize too about contribution is that what you guys are really saying here is like it's really important to unlock a who's who it's still really important as much of a meritocracy as Drupal is it's important to know if I'm interested in UX Goyan or Angie you know Louis Ninand these are the people I want to know so if there's one thing that I would like to do to help going back to that thought leadership like study up on Drupal and don't be afraid to reach out to the people who are writing about the issues that you're interested in who are addressing the kind of issues in the queue that you might want to work on every issue has someone who's assigned to it and if you see them writing smart things that you can learn there's a link there their name is a link to their Drupal.org profile and you have the ability to communicate with them to reach out and say hey you're saying something I'm really interested in I want to learn can you work with me and that's really important and don't be afraid to do that because the community here is incredibly generous and kind and it's really important to find those people so there are so many tips you just got I hope that answered your question but if it still didn't we have around 5 or 6 mini-ann each one of these cams starts designing the website so that's where you can start with contributing from UX, UI design there you go in the interest of flying I think you only have about 7 minutes left I know last day last session and then there's a bar so many of them so I'll probably skip the next few or four questions and open the floor because you know audience questions already have already done that so some of these here so I've been in 9 years now for Drupal and I'm a non-core contributor so one of the things that I've always been doing is thinking of what's the difference when you make the engine community click and some differences that always come up to me is that there are a lot more hobbies in the West, culturally there are more hobbies there I don't know if there are many organizations here who are ready to put in hobbies and let them continue to just code for Drupal so these are things that bring like top contributions in the U.S. like I know many people who are like programming and have a passion for programming continue to remain programmers in the West but especially where we are we tend to move you're a good programmer for a couple of years you can move into project management and then you know when you're to a different cycle secondly there aren't many organizations who'd be like ready to put in hobbies and say hey don't work for me just contribute for the community just some big differences that you see between how we work culturally second I have a list of points and I'm not going to steal this program just one more thought that I wanted to leave is that the thought that always comes to me is should we worry that India is so culturally disparate and see how to unify them or should we just localize our community interactions because I think sometimes we get pulled into something which is very difficult for us to address rather focus on driving more local initiatives so India is like America so you have different Drupal cons all over the U.S. and I'm sure you experience different kind of communities everywhere so this is a question that I'd like to place I'd like to address the last point diversity is incredibly important and the more different sorts of people you have addressing a problem the better your solution is going to be please do not search for a homogenized unified culture with please stay who you are and where you're from and speak your language and really really in the West we have a great deal of difficulty in most open source projects getting enough diversity happen and one of the things that I've noticed here is a fabulous diversity of religions a lot of women here this weekend I think please don't try to fix that because none of that is a problem and the last thing is that culturally a lot of us are very shy many of the best programmers may not have ready to shed their inhibitions and go on to IRC and post something and just putting some of these small observations that I've had and I'm sure I'm going to have opportunities to see how I can work with some of you to help you to use these ideas to move Indian contribution to a different level so there was a presentation yesterday of Rangoro Bukal community and I was described as being shy and someone who is in this room by the way said that no you're not shy and it is probably right and if I look back on myself you know what really happened I can say that I've probably not been shy I've just been an introvert and that's true for many many programmers and it's only the first time that hurts really people are going to make that happen and it's been a great place for that and it's just a problem of figuring out how do we get more attractive and it's climbing it's not a very hard problem right now it is increasing more and more people are getting more and more excited about contribution and really I see that happening all the way there's some sort of correlation in my mind between successful open source people and communications in fact my very first boss at Aquia came out of the proprietary software world and he figured that Drupal could be something and he was running the first engineering team when we were only one engineering team and he started to try to build our first products Drupal Gardens and get Drupal 7 out the door and the hosting platform came along and he kept on trying to do things and kept on sort of stopping and he had to stop and actually figure out what the bike shed is in Drupal and the fact that before we're going to do anything we're going to do any edge cases with you and all the reasons why this might not work and actually the entire premise of the question that you asked let's talk about that first and eventually Chris Brookins said I would rather argue with a whole room of courtroom barristers lawyers than with one open source engineer who doesn't want to do what I'm asking open source people are great communicators and I've seen a lot of people come out of their shells but the way our community is set up there are enormous opportunities for communication also for shy people issue queues, IRC Orbus If is an incredible contributor to the product who's been there I don't even know how many years and I've never met a person and not sure if he's ever been to any event but he's been incredibly important in the earlier phases of the product not everyone likes to be on stage and talk about it but that's cool because it's a very faceted world of communication that you can hook into interestingly Larry Garfield has also proposed a PSR-8 standard which I believe is a great Drupal contribution to the rest of the open source world and it's called the huggable interface and it's a way to control the physical interaction between 12 years because we're also really hugging, really really affectionate culture and I find that really really important and I think it's cool that he's in the PSR sector I don't want to just put it on you know I don't want to just put it on people to say well overcome your cultural you know, inhibition too I do think there is still a place for us to say you know, people who are surveying leadership roles in the community say let's reach out proactively like Kassin said, sprints are really great and one of the great reasons that they are so great is that when you're going to make that first comment on an issue right, someone's there when you push the submit button because it's actually frightening right and someone's going to be like it's cool, you're going to be fine I do this, I don't hug it's cool, it's going to be fine and that's important and we need ways to replicate that virtually and we need leaders to reach out and say hey, I've seen what you've quietly been doing over here I'd like to bring you right to the fold so I'm hoping that we can use some of the contribution statistics that we've been seeing to help unearth some of those folks who are really amazing contributors that don't always stand up and wave their arms and say hey, I'm an amazing contributor, right so that's nice Dave awesome, I think it couldn't be as appropriate as this to close the session I'm sorry we are done with the time but if you still have any more questions please grab our panelists know how to then ask those questions and get those resolutions that we're looking for from a really perspective I think they are having some very interesting takeaways and learnings and we have a road to plan and go forward thank you so much let's give a round of applause to Haram and I thank the audience and thank you very much for having this happen