 We're back. This is DinkTech. I'm Jay Fidel. Today, this is Keeping the World Company, and we're going to talk about golf. A full disclosure, I did play golf in 1953 with my father in Jacob Rees Park in Brooklyn, and that was pretty much the last time, so I'm not terribly familiar. But Keeping the World Company is all about reaching out to see what's happening in the world, and how that connects with and might affect the US. It's the story of a flat world, an interdependent world, a world where everything is connected, and that's our story today. It's about the PGA deal. For this discussion, we have my co-host, Jim Epichella, Vicky Kaitano, our esteemed guest, and Stephanie Stoltz-Alton, our regular contributor here at Keeping the World Company. Welcome to the show, all you guys. Morning. All right, let's begin with you, Tim. Why is this deal, okay, with the Saudis and the PGA important to America? Well, I think there's a principle involved here. It's why the United States and many Americans have issues with dealing with China. There's human right abuses, and what is on the main radar screen with Saudi Arabia purchasing the PGA is, there's never been a full accounting of Saudi Arabia's involvement with the 9-11 attack. And most recently, the murder of Kosoji, the journalist for the Washington Post in Turkey, at the embassy in Turkey. This was a horrific murder, and all signs pointed right to Saudi Arabia and the royal family there, the prince. So I think people have issues with that, and they made a stand. They made a stand a year ago, and it was quite explicit stand, and that is there was no interest in becoming part of the LIV because of these past actions of Saudi Arabia. Looks like Saudi Arabia is trying to buy its way into the hearts and minds of Americans through sports. And believe me, sports is a big part of our culture here in the United States, and what better way to extend yourself on a public relations basis than through sports. Yeah, well, it may go beyond public relations, too. It may go to geopolitics as well. Mickey, you're a business lady. Can you give us at least a broad outline of what is happening with the PGA? Well, you know, Jay, there's that saying, right? Follow the money. And this is all for the PGA and the individuals at the top of that leaderboard. It's all about the money, but it's going too far. And I think for the Saudis, they're very clever and crafty in seeing this as an opportunity, as Tim said, to win the hearts and the minds of Americans through sports. So for them, it's not just about the money. They have plenty of money to throw around, but they've got an agenda here. And I think it's extremely dangerous. And I, for one, believe that this is something that our government, our federal government and the president should really look more closely into and reconsider blocking the PGA being able to do this. So PGA right now is a nonprofit with appropriate determination letter from the Internal Revenue Service. I guess it's a public nonprofit. And it is strange to hear the term merger thrown around because, you know, you really, and this is stretched to have a nonprofit either required or merged in a conventional merger with another golf organization. It sounds to me like the Internal Revenue Service would and should have a certain interest in what is going on. But beyond that, you know, how can Congress, for example, block this deal? This is a deal between other entities that may not have any congressional jurisdiction. What do you think? Yeah, I think that's a very good question. And I think that sometimes when we look at the way government is run today, it's based on things that we never could foresee decades ago. So I think this is where it's so important to have the leadership to recognize that new events, new situations require us as a country to reassess what we can and cannot do. But I for one think that, you know, we need to recognize the danger in this so-called marriage. And to me, it's not a marriage. I think the Saudis intend to fully dominate this organization. And I think it's very dangerous for our country. Yes. I'm not sure a lot of people recognize that, but it really is. But we'll come back to explore that further. Stephanie, you know, one thing that is troublesome here is that we are getting, we're getting this kind of news that isn't really news. If you watch the news, you go on YouTube and try to get to the bottom of what's going on. It sounds like a golf commentator. They don't talk in business terms. They don't give you the details. They don't tell you who had the power. They don't tell you how it came about. Do you think we're getting enough information aside from a shot-by-shot examination of the golf game here? Oh, that's such a good question. I think that this is where in our country today, we have to get smart about this because there isn't enough information you're right onto something important. And if you want more of the details and see the complexities and the whitewashing of it, you have to read these long, long articles. I mean, for instance, you know, you say that, yes, the PGA is non-profit, but it's a 501C6, which is a tax-exempt organization. And so that's gonna be taking a big leadership role. And so on top of the other issues that Vicki has mentioned, we've got some of this camouflage going on. Because PGA will be appointing, evidently, those people will be appointing the majority of the board. But anyway, in order to get into understanding any way in which it works, you really have to plow through and into these wonderful articles. I mean, I'm very glad to have them, but for the ordinary citizen to really get a sense of the complexities in the business dealings, and as Vicki says, the positive and the other side of it because the first message in what I read is that this is a new era in golf and it's gonna be expanding the communities of the world so that they can relate to one another. So, like she said, it's supposed to have this, you know, white, you know, very friendly approach to let's be nice, nice to everybody and have international peace when other things are going on. So, Tim, DARREN CUSHNER in the waning days of the Trump administration made some sort of investment arrangement with the Saudis for billions. I don't know why they don't make a contribution to think back, by the way. I hope they would consider that. But, you know, is there a relationship here? I mean, is there a common denominator between the billions that the Saudis spent on him and the billions that the Saudis are spending on the PGA deal? I don't know. Oh, I know that Donald Trump is heavily involved with golf and it's not out of the possibilities that Kushner was on a mission to solicit the Saudis involvement with the United States and the PGA. That's a great question. I just, I don't know enough about what Jared Kushner's doing behind closed doors in Saudi Arabia. I'd venture to guess it's up to no good, but that's about as the extent I can go there. I will say that, you know, this was, this was a slick willy maneuver here. The board, there's a board. It's the player tour policy board. And of that board, there's many golfers that are involved or sit on that board. Not one of them knew that this was gonna take place. Tom Watson wrote a letter to the PGA and was very explicit in his disappointment with basically keeping everyone out in the dark about this maneuver. And I guess the way I feel about it, if you're a professional golfer, you're torn now between trying to support those families of the 9-11. You're trying to support those people that felt there was a horrible thing to do and the murder of Khashoggi. And on the other hand, this is your livelihood. So you're in a no-man's land of how are you gonna earn a living as a golfer and you're stuck with the PGA, which is now owned by the Saudis. Yeah, and they got plans. You know, the board that's gonna run it is like five and the chairman of that board, and I think they're in control of who gets appointed. And the chairman of that board is a Saudi. So query how much influence are the players gonna have? How much influence are the American management from before are gonna have? Vicky, you mentioned about the dangers of the deal. One thing comes to mind is that, this is all being run by MBS, Mohammed Ben Dhamman, who has just demonstrated that he's a real mean guy. He was probably responsible for Khashoggi. He's a friend of Putin. He's got, but he's got hundreds of years of oil left, and that is a lever that he plays around the world, including with the United States, including with Bush right after 9-11. And I guess the question I put to you is you said it was dangerous and we all have a sense of danger in dealing with the Saudis because of the nature of this man and its geopolitical position, not only in the Middle East, but around the world because he's been doing outreach for a while. This is part of his outreach. What's the dangers? Can you articulate some of the dangers that you see? So, you know, Jay, and after this, I do have a question for you about the whole transaction, but one of the things for me is looking at our country, as a country in whole, one of the concerns I have is in the name of business and money, we've started to compromise a lot of our values. I mean, because we can get cheap goods, for example, from China. I mean, if you've ever bought something 30 years ago and compared to what you can buy an appliance, a TV, or even a dress for, everything is made in China, we pretty much sold our soul to them. And now you're seeing this, you know, golf is so part of many for much of America. This is what we do, and it should be in the many communities, not just for the elite. And now you've got the Saudis going to be dictating this. How far does it go to benefit a few individuals? We are convinced that it's actually good for the majority. You know, where's our principles anymore as a country? We just seem to be selling out left and right to the highest bidder. And that really concerns me. And the silent majority doesn't seem to see this or is making much out of it. Thanks to at least media and folks like you, it's being brought to our attention. But for many of the silent majority, they just don't seem to understand how this is permeating our community. Yeah, I agree. So what are the chances that Congress will do something? Let's assume that, you know, traditional jurisdiction or not, Congress decides this is worthy of an effort to block the deal. Such as they could do, for example, with AI. They could try that too. But the political calculus is different here because, you know, Trump may be involved because the Saudis have a formidable lobbying ability with money. They can buy off, just buy off a few Republicans and they stop any effort to stop the deal. Do you think it's a reasonable chance or any chance that Congress will, in fact, investigate and stop the deal? It really depends on the will of the people who believe whether they should support this. And as you say, money buys a ticket to many of our, many of the people now in the political arena, unfortunately, or whether they believe that it's wrong. You know, I don't believe for one minute that the United States government can't find a way to at least stall this transaction while they look into it. I'll give you one example. You had mentioned this is a merger. So does it mean that the current PGA organization will stay intact? And if so, as a 501C6, could there be an opportunity to look at their whole tax situation? Do they really qualify? I mean, an investigation like that would take years and could be an opportunity, a tool to use in order to stall the deal. It really depends on the political will of the people who do have the ability to do something about this. And that's the unfortunate thing, though. Do they have that will, or have they also been bought out? Well, that's the question before the House. You said you had a question for me or us. What was that? Well, that was a question I wanted to ask you. Under this transaction, is a PGA staying intact or are they basically going to dissolve and be under this new organization now? I would say that's in flux. And I would say that the use of the term merger has evaporated, they're not calling it a merger anymore. Probably well advised. And I think the MBS has not really fixed on exactly how he wants to handle this or how long he wants it to last. I mean, one issue that came up, I don't know if you remember this, Stephanie, in the article was, they say this is gonna last a year or two. What happens then? The fact is that PGA, it's PGA tour, technically, was losing money, that's what they said anyway. I find it hard to believe that PGA tour was losing money. There's so many golfers who pay so much money to play golf. And most of them are well-heeled anyway, at least the ones who play professionally. Anyway, if they are losing money, and what is it, LIV, Tim? LIV is a successor. LIV is gonna somehow bail them out. It's really MBS, it's gonna bail them out. Can I jump in for a minute? Yeah. Losing money, the PGA is worth $1.5 billion and they enjoy the luxury of tax exemption. Losing money? Exactly, exactly. And so, you really wonder what's gonna happen here with the way the money is gonna flow, as Vicki said, and you follow the money on this. And if LIV is a successor and LIV is good for a year or two, what we can find is a kind of shell game here, where the PGA disappears or disappears into LIV or some other organization that he puts together. And America no longer has control of American competitive golf, period. That they fund it and take it. That's called outreach. Stephanie, you had anything on that? I just know that they're saying that the PGA is running the show at this point, in the administration and they're gonna appoint the most of the members of the board of the new commercial entity. And then it goes on for paragraphs about what the new commercial entity is gonna do and it involves the same players. I mean, yes, Jay Monhand, but then also lots of Saudi names. So it just looks like it's piling on to take control of this whole franchise. I mean, and that's where it's gonna be. And I certainly think that the Congress is probably not going to do anything about this given their agenda. It doesn't have room for taking something like this on, but certainly, as Vicki says in your question, this needs a look at. This is just a complete ball of wax that they've made for. It goes to the part we talked about earlier, whether we really know what's going on. For example, the initial selection for LIV, which stands for 54, you mentioned, Tim, 54 is what you get in a perfect game of golf. Is that what it is, 54? Well, LIV is the Roman numeral for 54. And if you look at 18 holes and you calculate each hole as a birdie, which is one under par, you would have the number of 54. World politics. I'm sorry, Vicki. No, that's an interesting anecdote for our listeners. Yeah. I didn't know that. You know, Jay, I just like to jump in with one thing as you know, Stephanie mentioned, and that's the image that's trying to be portrayed is that the PGA is in charge of all this. Well, I've been through a few mergers in my life and it always comes down to the revised golden rule. And that is whoever he or she has the gold makes the rules. Oh, Tim. Yeah, that's really good, Tim, yeah. You know, and I don't think this is any different. And you know, if you listen to the Saudis though, here's their argument for this merger. Well, not a merger, whatever you wanna call it. We're diversifying our oil revenues into other areas. We don't wanna be oil-centric in our revenues. That's their argument. Hogwarts. Does anybody here in this room believe that? I just said Hogwarts, so not me. Not me. And what about the people that play golf? I mean, as Vicki and Tim have pointed out, a minority of people are involved in golf. And as I've understood from friends who do play golf, is the golf courses are shrinking. Because they're not used and the fees are so high. And so there's been a movement, I mean, maybe like from tennis to pickleball, but then nine, 18 whole golf courses are shrinking down to being smaller sizes. So how is this reflecting the state of the sport and interest in it? I mean, that's just at the... No, that's a very good point. And I remember when Frank Fosse was mayor, he wanted to have a hundred million dollar bonus paid to the city for anyone who came and developed a golf course in Oahu. I thought that was very interesting. He never got anybody to pay that money. But you tried that today, lots of luck. Because golf is not what it used to be. And it's never land use. Stephanie, you pointed out something really important. That is, I remember 60 minutes doing this exact segment that you just brought up. And guess what? The millennials and Gen Z, they're not playing golf all that much. They're not seeing the value of the sport. And so a lot of golf greens and fairways are going unintended. And that's a dilemma for all those housing communities that paid big dollars to live on a fairway. And now it's brown and weeds are popping up. Exactly, and can't sell the property because of the backup to that. Land use has changed, especially around cities where you have people who are affluent enough. So Vicki, I mean, to me, this is really interesting stuff because we have agreed there's some sinister plan here. I hate to put it that way, but I think that's the way it is. Why is he doing this? It's not to bail out the PGA. He doesn't care about that. Is it perhaps to make money? Not likely. But what is it though? There's gotta be some larger geopolitical agenda, don't you think? Yes, and I'll tell you, they're so clever. I am sure that they're not looking at golf the way we see it today. Because like you said, is there really a financial gain in this? If you look at it, but knowing how resourceful they are, I mean, they've had to be to survive in the location they've been at, right? They're probably thinking of ways to reinvent the sport and in the process create a different image to the American public. It is an entry for them into communities, to families, to schools, through this sport in a reinvented way. So it's a friendly way for them to introduce themselves and to really gain a different, how shall I say, image to recreate their image to the American people? That's what I think. There is definitely an agenda here. And as you say, if it's not where they can make a ton of money given how golf, as we see it today, how it's going, they're going to reinvent that sport and do it in a way that gives them an entry into American communities. You know, for America, sport is a kind of soma out of brave new world. It's the opiate of the masses. It exists also in Europe. You know, when you see those soccer games, you know, Europe could be falling apart and yet there's 100,000 people at a soccer game cheering and getting all excited. That's the same thing with football here, isn't it? If you go into these big stadiums into which investors have invested, you know, many, many millions to build them and operate them and teams trade or yachts of money and players trade for lots of money, it's soma. And so if you went through the 100,000 people in some stadium or the 100,000 people who are watching golf at any moment in time and asked them, well, what happened today with Trump? What happened today in Congress? What happened today with the Supreme Court? They wouldn't know. They're interested in the sport. And I think sports are the opiate of the masses in the US. Makes a lot of money, attracts a lot of people and generally distracts us from the reality of our society. Stephanie, you know, what do you think? I mean, there seems to be a corrosive quality to having a foreign country by the opiate of the American masses. That's such a part of the comments that have suggested this whitewashing and this camouflaging and my complete consternation and confusion about why we're having anything to do with the Khashoggi murderer. Out of the sanctions that we've put up, if any, Saudi Arabia, now we're inviting him as Avicky says into our TV screens, our homes and into our athletic arena. I mean, the 9-11 family seem to have the only backbone here, the only step statements to make. I mean, they're holding out on stepping up against this and hopefully it'll get more attention. And there has been feedback and it might be that it's gonna have enough crescendo to get somebody's attention. If that would be the Congresses or anything to stop this, this whitewashing of this man who's evil and killed one of our Washington Post reporters, I mean- Well, Tim, would you feel differently if MBS had done the same kind of acquisition deal, control deal about the National Football League or about the National Basketball Association? Is there a difference? Not a great difference actually, except for the dollars involved. NFL is huge, the NBA is huge. So no, I don't think I'd feel that much differently, but I do wanna agree with you on one point and that is our sports have become the great distraction and it's escapism at best, unlike the Roman Coliseum days. But I will take exception to your comment is this, sports is the great common denominator where we could be a society that have different races and religions and politics. And for whatever reason, your love for a particular sports team, for that moment of the game and maybe thereafter a little bit, all those differences are evaporated. And you are one team and one spirit during that game. And I think that's a healthy thing for our country. I think sports bring people together. It's a healthy endeavor. But it's not connected with voting or politics. Well, actually it is. It's a public policy. I would argue that Donald Trump is that sports team and there's 33 to 35% of this country that's on Team Trump. And right or wrong, if there's a bad call in the field, who cares? We still won the game or we're still ahead. So regardless of the law, Team Trump says, eh, who cares? Donald Trump's our team. Let's a record reflect there was silence after Tim's remark. Well, I just wanted to jump in. So the power of the influence of that participation in joint activity and just as Tim says. After COVID, it's a good thing that people get together. I would imagine that. And everybody's the same. And the powerful influence everybody has on one another can get to the voting spot. Vicki, do you think this will happen again? I mean, if assuming it goes through, assuming there's no real pushback, assuming that the Saudis and MBS who are voting assuming that the Saudis and MBS who are the pathological individual can control our gulf. What about other sports? Will other countries, will China, for example, try to do this? I wouldn't say Russia is a good bet right now, but will somebody try to do this with another team organization? Sure, I was just gonna say that where does it end? And while I'm a big sports fan, the point is there needs to be balance. And unfortunately too many of our people in this country now don't even know the names of their representatives in Congress or in the Senate, but they know who is their quarterback. So bring a balance. We need to have an informed public if we're going to continue to be a successful and strong democracy. This is why we are failing. It's so important for the people to recognize this. And I do hope there's a way to at least stall this until we get more details about this transaction because everything I've seen so far is just a marketing blurb, you know? And I think people are being blindsided if they don't want to see it or can't see that. And at the heart of the matter is we can't sell our souls just for the almighty dollar. That is just not right. Yeah. I want to touch on one thing you said a little while ago and that is the media when we said it, I guess. So if I'm running the PGA from running a national sport, international sport that I'm on the media a lot. And presumably I'm paying for advertising. We know, we have friends who work for say the PGA organization and they are involved in economic experience and they're well-paid. And so the media, through the media and the media has a benefit out of that. And what you said earlier really touches me in the sense that if I'm running the PGA and I'm all over the media and I'm paying for advertising, then I have a certain control over the media, don't I? And I can tell the media I'm gonna take channel one for as long as it's friendly to my point of view. But I'm not gonna take channel two because it's not friendly to my political point of view. It's kind of like Fox News. You have a bubble and the bubble is not limited to playing golf. The bubble is what this organization wants the media to do and it can manipulate the media that way. Am I being paranoid? No, you're not, but I would like to believe that it doesn't have to be an all either or all. There's a balance to everything. Of course, there's a certain amount of influence, but I would hope that whether you're a business or an individual, you don't feel that in order to succeed or to be successful in life, you have to sell your values and your soul. I mean, what are we then if we're willing to do that? To prostitute ourselves, you know? Really, where is the end to this? So it's very dangerous. I hope people understand it's all about balance. And there are times we absolutely have to intervene in situations like this with the PGA. And I hope our leaders have the courage and the conscience and the will to do it. Okay, we're almost out of time. So I wanna ask you for final comments. Tim, your final comments and especially, whether this is another inflection point of a sort. It is sort of. Mike, the term that is used in Stephanie, you almost hit a spot on. You said whitewashing. It's called sports washing. And that is you spend incredible amounts of dollars and money, look at the amount of money that China spent, Qatar spent to put on a show. Basically it's a public relations show to ingratiate themselves to the world while they're trying to cover up their human rights violations. Look at Nazi Germany in 1936, that Olympics. Jesse Owens ruined it for Adolf Hitler. But that was nothing to show the world that we're really part of the human community and we value things as the rest of the world do. And they use an Olympics to do that. And this is the beginning. And I would say you should expect more. Wow, that is profound. I'm so glad you mentioned that. Stephanie, what are your final thoughts you'd like to leave with our viewers? Yeah, I would just like to remind everybody there are some dots that can connect and they are, for example, the first official visit by Trump as president was to Saudi Arabia. And then we had the visits of Jared in order to accomplish his goals there and working with the Khashoggi incident. And then Jared's back and working on the billions that he got. And then he's back working on other arrangements with them. And then remember too that the last visit of Jared Kushner, a senior executive of the president, was to Saudi Arabia. And so Trump was in and out of there with the heaven knows what kind of promises were made to help get this Saudi relationship back where it knew. Yeah, we never knew, did we? Yeah. And many more dots, I'm sure. I'm probably not even scratching the surface, but. No. Well, they've been keeping us out. We don't know the nature of the deal. But Vicky, you know, it strikes me, this is all a backdoor to something else as we have discussed. What are your final thoughts and comments to our viewers about this? No, I would just say amen to both Stephanie and Tim's comments. I agree wholeheartedly. I hope that our viewers and others will take the time to spend, to listen and to learn of these issues because it may not seem important to you on the surface. But let me tell you, it is impacting our country and our lives and we are seeing this. So I hope everybody will, you know, pay attention and come out and speak their conscience, really. Yeah, we can't be a nation of cows. Okay, I'm not going back to Jacob Reese Park for now. I have no intention of playing golf again until this all settles down. And I would like our Congress to understand the nuances of the deal and I hope they will. Thank you, Vicky Caetano. Thank you, Stephanie Stoltz-Alton. Thank you, Tim Eppichella. Aloha. Thank you so much for watching Think Tech Hawaii. If you like what we do, please click the like and subscribe button on YouTube. You can also follow us on Facebook, Instagram and LinkedIn. Check out our website, thinktechhawaii.com. Mahalo.