 The science is clear. It works. It works for flexibility. It works for increased caloric expenditure. It works for circulation. It works for a variety of different issues. Welcome to the podcast, Dr. Convizer. So, what is whole body vibration? First, thank you for inviting me. Whole body vibration is a platform that you can stand on, sit on. You can use as part of your daily movement activities. You can use it to enhance the traditional exercises that you would normally be doing. And for individuals at the two ends of the spectrums, the elite athlete, to the individual who is really in a medical fitness environment, allows us to stimulate the body in a safe, effective way so they get the results that they're looking for. It's not the only piece of exercise equipment that you would have in a gym, but it certainly is a wonderful piece to add to any exercise regimen. Yeah, so people go to the gym. Do a lot of gyms have some version of a body vibrating machine, or is this something you probably wouldn't see in everybody's gym? It's the perfect question. In environments where the personal training staff or the staff that develop programs for special needs, either at the higher end or lower end, almost always you have some kind of vibration platform that's made available. It's only in the last four, five years that it has now come to the center where vibration is used as a modality for the average individual to use when they want to enhance their exercise, to modify their exercise, to get a little bit different feel from the exercise that they would normally be doing. So when we're talking about vibrational therapy, that's not shaking ourselves vigorously, and that's not necessarily jumping on a rebounder. This is something totally different, correct? A hundred percent, and maybe the biggest mistake 40, 45 years ago was starting to use the term whole body vibration. Basically, it's a platform that does vibrate, but when positioned on the platform, when you're in the correct position that you shouldn't be feeling it in the head, you should feel it as a massage or as a stimulus to the body, not as a violent attack on the body. If it doesn't feel good, you're probably not doing it right. The nice part about the devices that we talk about in our clinics is that they're created in such a way that it's pretty hard to do something that doesn't feel good. The vibration allows us to take the head away and stimulate the muscles so we get a better muscle contraction, better circulation. I usually describe it as to prepare for exercise, to perform with exercise, and to recover from exercise. It helps us in all three of those tracks. So let's step back. How did you first become aware of this and the benefits, and what made you want to study this and become the expert that you are in vibrational therapy? 20 years ago, give or take, I was asked to look at this machine that shakes, as you described. Everything in my training, all of my experience, all of my publications, thought, what a crazy thing to have a machine that would shake the body. What possible benefit could you have from it? Then I started to not only look at the literature and the history of vibration, but then started to include it in my research with my patients in my clinics. I was finding that all kinds of benefits could be achieved. Now, again, 40, 45 years ago, there were really two ways of starting with vibration. The first was the Europeans, they were using it in athletics. Imagine if you're doing speed skating and you might warm up but your competition is going to be an hour later, two hours later. How do you keep the muscles loose and pliable and warm when you're not allowed to be on the ice because there's other people competing at that time? Vibration was found to be incredibly adaptive to the individuals so that they could jump onto the ice when it was their turn and be ready to go. The second group of individuals was when the Soviets were in spaceflight and they were in an extended period of time. We also have it with the International Space Station. We're in a weightless environment. There's no such thing as weightlifting in a weightless environment, but how do you get the muscles are contracting so that they're stimulated? So we have circulation in the periphery so that the muscles are able to stay loose and pliable. So we had it in two extremes, the athletes and in space travel and then it started to be adapted down from different athletes down to collegiate high school and now it's really part of a general exercise, physical therapy environment and frankly for a home environment. Can you share a few success stories with patients from your clinics? That would be great to hear. Sure. Well first thing, if you came to one of our clinics, our waiting room is not your traditional waiting room. We have whole body vibration units in our waiting room because when someone comes to our facilities, we want them to start warming up and we don't want them to sit and read a magazine, we want them to start to exercise. So we encourage all of our clients to prepare their body even if they're coming for behavioral health and non-exercise treatment for whatever the reason they're presenting. So we believe in vibration for all kinds of folks, but there's different stories that I like to share. First is we do a lot of work with obese clients and one of the issues with obese clients is it's hard to carry a three and four hundred pound body around and to do things because you're carrying three or four hundred pounds. So how can we get them to stimulate muscle, stimulate activity, being on a vibration platform gives us all kinds of opportunities for the muscles to contract, to improve circulation, to improve flexibility and then when we are walking on a track or on a treadmill or a bike on any kind of modality, they're ready, they're more prepared to exercise. That's what we like. And one of the issues when we deal with obese and very deconditioned individuals, it's not the fact that we get them to come for the first time, we want them to come back the second, third and fourth time. And we know that when they use vibration, they feel better, they move better. They're more in control of their body. They go, wow, that's something. I'm not quite sure what that is, but I like that feeling because they haven't had that good feeling of moving and allowing your body to say, hey, I'm a better entity when I'm moving than when I'm sitting and I'm stagnant. I have another group. We deal with a lot of mature adults and balance is a big issue. Balance in general, balance because of Parkinson's, balance for a variety of different reasons. And even though when you see the machine and it's turned on, you don't see it moving. It's not shaking so that you can visually see it, but when you stand on it, what it does is it creates an imbalance, a safe imbalance, so it forces the muscles to contract to literally prepare to lose balance, gain balance, lose balance, gain balance by creating an environment where you could be off balance. You have a device that is shaking the muscle. So you go, okay, I'm listening to one side. I'm going to come back. And it's all fractional. It's very, very small changes. But when someone steps off a device, they go, oh, those muscles are firing now. It's almost like I hit the light switch. We did a study at the spring point, senior assistant living center, and we asked these individuals who are late 70s, 80s and 90s to be on a vibration platform. And overwhelmingly, overwhelmingly they said ADLs or activities of daily living, walking speed, walking distance, going upstairs, going downstairs, being able to carry a bag into a room to go out with their family to a mall to be able to do activities of daily living were so much easier after they had been on a power plate. That's what people pay me for. That's what I get my kicks from is when someone goes, you're helping me feel better. Third example, I have a client who's a very famous musician. And this person's hands are really struggling right now and is a world class musician. This person before they walk out onto the stage with the orchestra, just puts their hands on the vibration platform. So their hands are very loose and pliable. So while some people might be using it to train as an Olympic athlete, I have somebody else who's using it so that they can still function and have dexterity and comfort in their hands so that they can play their musical instrument. Fourth is one that I haven't, there's not a single person that I've met that doesn't have a bad back, had a bad back or know someone who has or had a bad back. And we know that with vibration that we can relax the muscles in the lower back in the hips so that it doesn't stop the issues of why someone may or may not have a bad back. But it certainly is a modality that allows for the comfort and the prevention of having somebody who has a bad back. So you could have it for those who are at the far end of the medical fitness continuum. You could have it at the other side for the most elite of elite athletes who are looking for another tenth of a second or another quarter inch of height, whatever it might be. And then for the average person it just makes you feel better. You don't, your feet don't swell as much, you're much more flexible, you're more comfortable sitting in a chair, you're more comfortable when you're standing up. It's a device, it's a product that is used for all different situations. Somebody asked me will give me an analogy to a tool and I go a hammer can be used by a carpenter for rough carpentry to a craftsman for very fine tuning and everything in between. With vibration you can use it in almost every general exercise in every athletic or medical fitness environment. So are there, are there vibrational therapy almost sounds, let's use the word voodoo or pseudoscientific and yet there are multiple published studies looking at the physiologic effect of vibrational therapy. Can you, can you share some, maybe some of them are yours, but what's the literature say? So there's a, there's lots of papers and a lots of stuff, but now let's kind of limit that to the, there's about 2000 fairly decent controlled studies that have looked at vibration in a variety of different environments and we know that vibration is a wonderful tool. It's not the only tool, it's not the best tool, but it allows a clinician to help advise someone how to move and move more effectively. It helps an individual who wants to have an exercise piece of equipment at their home that takes a very small place that allows them to feel better and to be able to use their, their body instead of a big gymnasium, they can use it in a variety of different ways. There are hundreds and hundreds of the company that I like, the product that I like is called power plate and there's hundreds of training videos how to use it for a bad back for feet that are swelling for flexibility for improved muscular power, muscular endurance. The science is clear. It works. It works for flexibility. It works for increased caloric expenditure. It works for circulation. It works for a variety of different issues, but it's not the only item, but it certainly is a tool that should be in everybody's tool kit, whether they do it in a clinic or they do it at their own home. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I remember reading when I first was studying this years ago that the guys who were using jack hammers out in the street to break up cement, which were very intense vibration, it was noted that these guys, the jack hammer operators, would develop rather impressive muscles and they actually had weight loss and somebody said, son of a gun, I think it's this constant vibration that in fact building muscles and stimulating caloric burn. Is that a true story or is that an urban legend? Both. Exercise is good. Exercise is healthy. Too much exercise can also be not so good. Using a jack hammer for five, six, seven hours, the amount of vibration that is being addressed to that individual, they want to make sure that they're physically capable of handling that kind of vibration for that length of time. With power plate, the stimulus is usually five, 10, 15, 20 minutes, maximum of 30 minutes of vibration exposure, and what we do is we're able to have the hurt level or the amount of vibrations per second, as well as how high or how intense that vibration will occur. For example, if you were driving and there was a rumble strip or something that you would run over, if you run over maybe a foot of the rumble strip and then your body relaxes, but if you had to drive on that for 30 minutes or three, four hours, you'd probably not feel so good. The whole idea of vibration and the clients that we work with in our clinics, we usually have them exposed to five minutes to 10 minutes of exposure over a 10 to 20 minute period of time. So we have the exposure, we let the body rest, we have the exposure, we let the body rest. And that's when I think it's most effective. The literature also supports, maybe I should say it a different way, the literature does not support being on a vibration platform for six, seven, eight hours a day. The whole idea is that you exercise, you improve the quality of your life, you enhance your activities of daily living, and then turn it off and go do the things that you enjoy doing. That's why not only do we have these products in our clinic, but we want our clients to have them at home so that they can make it part of their day to day routine. For some, to get them going in the morning, they use vibration to help wake up, to get the kinks out, to start feeling a little bit more comfortable. It takes them a while to just loosen their body up. For others, they come home and their feet might be swelling, they might be a little bit tired, traffic was a little stressful, and they use it as part of a relaxation program. And others use it to enhance the exercise that they're doing. The important part here for your listeners is that you don't have to do it the way other people do it. There are hundreds of tapes, there are a variety of different ways of going, this is my issue, this is how I can use vibration to help me with my issue. And that's why I think it's so strategic when we work with our patients, that it's not everyone does it the exact same way, everyone does it the way that's most important to their particular needs. So there are a lot of vibration platforms out there. How do you decide to use the power plate for your clinics? I think this is the most important question that you or anybody will ask. You're right, there are lots of products out there. The reason we have chosen power plate and the reason I've used power plate in my clinics for not quite almost 20 years is that they use what's called a tri-planer approach. The product will go up down, front and back, side to side. And that tri-planer approach to vibration allows someone to stand, sit, lie down, to use the platform in any way that they would want to use it. And the amount of vibration that's going up into the body is very controlled. It's a very smooth, very comforting kind of exposure to vibration as opposed to what's called that teeter-totter, where there's a single motor in the center of the platform and it goes side to side, side to side. Well, if a platform is going side to side, your body is experiencing that shaking from side to side. And I've never, not once in my professional career, did someone get on a teeter totter and go, oh boy, this is something I'd like to do for another 5, 10, 20 minutes, because the teeter-totter is a lot more abusive and tough on the body. There's also one of the reasons that I like power plate is that the amount of vibration and the way that the tri-planer approach allows the stimulus to affect the body is that you might see some advertisements that say this vibration unit can do 7Gs, 8Gs, 9Gs, where someone flying a jet fighter may have to experience 6, 7, 8Gs in a flight simulation or a fighter, but the average person does not want to be on a platform that creates that many Gs. 5Gs is good for my phone, it's not good when you have that exposure to your body. So we want to make sure that it's not just how much force can be created and forced upon the body, it's how that vibration is developed and exposed to the body. Again, that tri-planer allows the experience of vibration, the comfort of it, to allow people to come back and ask for more. And power plate, again, I had the choice of using any product that was out there. I started well before it was a well-known brand name. This tri-planer was a really important decision in putting these products in our clinics and then recommending to have clients put them in their homes. So let me ask you a question. Can this substitute for exercise? You asked that very nicely. No, I think the very best thing in the world is that whenever it's my time to go, I hope I had a good workout the morning before I have to go. There is no substitute. Exercise is exercise. You need a cardiovascular plan. You need a strength plan. You need a flexibility plan. You need an approach to exercise that you'll do it on a fairly regular basis for a fairly regular amount of time. And that makes you feel good. It is not in exchange for all the other activities, going out and playing tennis and swimming. It allows you to play tennis and swim and do other activities more comfortably. It doesn't take over for going for a nice walk. It allows you to warm up so that when you go out for a nice walk, you feel better. It doesn't take the place of anything. It enhances the quality, the experience of what you're going to have. It makes you feel better. It allows you to warm up so that when you do the activity, you're more prepared to move. It helps you do that activity more comfortably. And then when you're done with the activity, it helps you recover so that you can go about doing the other kinds of things that you normally like to do. Could I use one example of that? I tell this to all of my clients. If I take a muscle and I stretch the muscle this far and I let go, it creates that much force. If I can take that same muscle and allow that muscle to stretch just a little bit more and then let go, it creates more force, more potential energy. And if I warm up with vibration, I'm allowing the muscles to be just a little bit more flexible. I have engorged those muscles with blood. Blood carries oxygen. A muscle that's more flexible has more potential for contraction. When I'm participating in activity, if I have more muscles and more circulation, more oxygen being delivered to the muscles, I am enjoying that activity. I'm doing that more comfortably. And then when I'm done exercising, going for my walk, playing with the kids, doing softball or whatever activity that you like, I want to recover that much better. I want to allow my body to just relax. I use vibration. I ask my clients, all my staff, ask our clients to use it to prepare, to perform, and recover. So we think it's an important part of a daily routine. And one of the nice things about these vibration units is that they just don't break. They stay around forever. It is a rarity. It is a rarity that you have a vibration platform that goes down. You open up a box, you plug it in, and you turn the switch on. That's from a technology standpoint. That's the kind of product that I like. I actually like to use my power plate as an adjunct to exercise, like I'll do push-ups on the power plate. I'll put my feet up on the power plate, laying down, and do sit-ups with my legs vibrating. Is that okay? I'll do that a lot. So first of all, good for you. Keep doing it. And what it shows is that for our age, that we can use a product that is used at both the Olympic level, and used at the very serious rehabilitation or clinical level. And for those of us who are just trying to get a little bit more efficient in the activities that we're doing, you betcha. Doing push-ups with vibration, it's a game changer. You go, oh, that's what it means when all those muscles are firing. One of the things maybe your listeners would want to know is that the reason that we use vibration is that the body doesn't get to choose which muscles are firing and which muscles are not firing. There's a concept in physiology called all or none. It's specific. We want the specificity of activity. If I have a product like this, and I'm doing a curl like this, I'm only using the muscle fibers that I need to do this particular activity. I don't use more. I just use enough. But with vibration, the body doesn't know, oh, I should only use 10% of my muscle fibers or 15%. You use all of them. So you get a much more efficient firing and a much more efficient activity so that when you're doing push-ups like you just described, instead of doing 50 push-ups, you probably can do 10 to 15, and you go, oh, my God, that's a wonderful workout. And instead of doing 50 sit-ups, you can probably do 10, 15 sit-ups. And you go, holy cow, do I feel like I've really worked my core? All the muscles are firing because it's not allowing the head, the brain to describe to the body what you need to do that activity. It's taking that out of the picture. Yeah. Good description. So are there any contraindications to vibrational therapy or? Vibration is exercise. And we know that for most people, exercise is good, exercise is healthy, and there's the reasonableness factor that you start slow and you build up. Are there certain contraindications to vibration? Of course. If you just had a knee replacement or a hip replacement, I wouldn't want you to jump on a vibration platform. But frankly, if I just had a knee or a hip replacement, I'd also want a clinician to be helping them get ready so that they can use their body more efficiently. So we say moderation with everything, common sense. And if you have a question, you should be asking your physician. But in general, if it's not, if you shouldn't be exercising on a treadmill or going out to a park or doing an activity, you probably shouldn't be exercising with a vibration platform until you get physician approval. But I deal with sick people. If one of your clients or one of your listeners are Google me, I'm a medical fitness guy. Nobody comes to me when they're healthy. They come to me when they're 400 pounds. They have second heart. They have a second set of hips. Nothing went well for them where they currently are. And we use the vibration as a platform for all kinds of activities. Sometimes nothing more than just massage, because it makes you feel better, your feet feel better, your calves feel better, your buttocks, and your lower back feels better. So we use it for lots of different things that gives somebody an opportunity to go, I'm back in the game. I can do things again. I feel good. So yeah, there are some reasons why you won't use it, but those are probably the same reasons why you'd be careful with general exercise as well. And that's why it's used as part of a program, not the only program. So can it be used for rehabilitating injuries? Do athletes use it? Do regular people use it? Do you use it in your clinics for rehab? So I consider all of my clients athletes, whether they come and they're 30 years old, 50 years old, 70 years old, 90, everyone is an athlete trying to compete at the very highest level that they can. So the answer is, yes, it can be used for athletes. Second, can it be used as part of rehab? Of course it can be used as part of rehab, but it is a tool in the right tools at the right time. So again, if somebody has a new hip, we might not use vibration in their activity for the first couple of weeks, whatever it might be, until they're stable. And then when they have stability, I'm going to be using it for flexibility, balance, range of motion. Absolutely, I'm going to be including it in my exercise program. There is art and then there's science. The science says that when the muscle is vibrating that it gets stronger. The science says that when you're on a vibration platform, you have better circulation. The science has shown us overwhelmingly that you can improve and significantly enhance your flexibility. But when you're rehabbing, there's a reason. There has been some assault on the body, either because of injury, surgery, something has occurred and there needs to be a plan. And one of the nice things about Power Plate is their app has hundreds and hundreds of examples of if you're not flexible, if you have a sore back, if you're working on balance, if you have Parkinson's, you can literally choose the protocol and the recommendations of how to use vibration to enhance the lifestyle and the overall general good feeling. That's a nice part of working with this company. So you're not stranded, you plug it in and now what do I do? Right? No, the app is free. You go in and you put the particular needs that you have. My flexibility is horrible. My feet are swelling when I come home at night. My lower back hurts. I want to develop a bicep and tricep strength. We even have some people that have them at their office. I have some pharmacists who have been my clients for a long time and they're on their feet seven, eight hours a day and it hurts to be on your feet doing what they do and they might take their own 30-second or 60-second break just to have vibration to massage their feet and to massage their legs. So you don't have to worry about opening up a box, turning it on and go, what do I do with this thing though? There's all kinds of examples that are easily accessible and I want your listeners to know that the least technical person in the world is me. You don't have to find anybody else. If it doesn't have just a non-off switch, I ask my assistant to help. All these programs that your listeners would want to use vibration for, they're already developed. The how long, how much, how to do it, safety, how to get on, get off, very, very Jason-proof or the simplest of technical minds, that's what they've been designed for and all those are available for free. All right, let's address the big elephant in the room, the cost. It's a hefty investment. Are there any gyms where people can try it out? Can insurance cover it or is it FSA eligible? So I'm going to give you the best answers that I have. I want you to know that I'm not a paid spokesperson for doing this. I do this because I really believe in helping people and allowing people to get the machine's equipment and programs that allow them to feel better. So when we talk about price and reimbursement, I'm talking to you as a clinician and somebody who reads the literature and studies, but I'm not in the business of selling equipment. So the first thing, there's a wonderful discount, I believe, to your listeners to participate if they should choose to purchase a unit. The same unit that I have in my house, the same unit that I have in my kids' homes is available to you. And frankly, your listeners would pay less than what I had to pay for to get into my house and into my kids' homes. So I believe that the move, which is I think the best product for the prices, I believe your listeners would pay $600, which is significantly less than what is available in general. Second, I believe that it's available with financing with 0% interest. So that's a benefit to your clients. I believe that it is on cafeteria plans and various health plans. I believe it is eligible. I'm not aware of an insurance company that will pay for a product because it is hopefully preventing an injury. It's helping you rehab at your home. It's asking you to take responsibility for you and your lifestyle. But the whole idea is that we want to move. You don't want to come to my clinic. You don't want to come to a healthcare environment. You want to do it at your own home so that you're in control of your body. So I would say to your listeners, it's very much worth it. Can you try this out? Depending on what city that you're in, I am guessing that there's not a major city in the United States that doesn't have a gym that has different vibration products. They may not have the move, but the vibration technology, the tri-planer technology, the various Hertz settings. Hertz is how many contractions per second. Depending whether it's a commercial or a home unit, they're all the same. And if you go to the PowerPlate website, there's also a tab that you can find out where units are located. That's very helpful. I don't do this for any other product. And I'm not doing this because I get paid. I'm telling your clients, telling your listeners that when you're sitting in a chair and you're watching television and you put your feet on the vibration agent and go, this guy was right. I feel better. When your calves are tight and it's been a long day and you've been on your feet, and you go, oh my god, five minutes, I feel rejuvenated. When you have an issue with balance and you're going, my god, I'm taking steps and I feel like I'm going to lose it. But if I'm on the, for a five minute program, all of a sudden my body feels better. Muscles are contracting that have been dormant for years. That's why this product is doing so well. People will be able to take it out of the box and use it and feel better right away. Good news. Much of my research is looking at the microbiome and mitochondrial function. Have there been any studies in vibrational therapy looking at changes in mitochondrial function or even changes in the microbiome that diversity? The answer is yes there have, but I don't know that there's enough study to be able to say that we have a clear sense of what the literature is showing. And the reason is this is a product that has been around for 40 years and yet we're just now starting to, it's almost like it's a new product. People are going, you mean a machine that vibrates and that's a good thing? It's been around for 40 years. So there are some research centers that are doing some wonderful work. I think though that we still have another two, three, four years of time before we can say that we're sure that there are significant physiological changes in that area. Now as the researcher though, intellectual, how can you not have change if you're able to have these cardiovascular changes that have been reproduced over and over, these respiratory changes over and over, the flexibility, the balance. If you have these large category of physiological change, how does that happen in a vacuum? So intellectually, there's probably other changes going on. But I don't know that there's enough scientific literature that I would hold my head on and say yes for sure the database is guiding us in this direction. Got you. Now you brought up an interesting point. This technology has been around 40 years. Why do you think the new interest in vibrational technology? Probably, I said a few minutes ago that you asked the best question. This is probably the best question. The first devices were the teeter-totter devices and they don't feel comfortable. So even if we know that vibration works, if it doesn't feel good, it's hard to get somebody to come back and do it a second, third time. Now that we have this tri-planar technology, when we're on it, the violence of the vibration isn't felt as a negative feeling. It is limited to the muscles and the body positions, the anatomical positions that you're putting somebody in to get the benefit that you're looking for. So if it works and it feels better, there's a better chance of people coming back. And if I just intellectually say, do you know what? Spend $600 on this big vibration platform. Well, that doesn't seem to make sense. So sometimes we need individuals like you, people that come to my clinic, come to an environment and try it very, very few times. Does somebody jump on and go, oh my god, this doesn't feel good? They say, why didn't I know about this before? So it's been there, but now we have to expose people to it. We have to get them on. There was a time when there was no such thing as a treadmill, and people ran around in circles in gyms. There was a time when there was no stationary cycle, that people had to ride bikes outside. There was a time when there were all kinds of activities until we find new platforms and new ways of presenting that activity in a safe and reproducible manner. We're there now. Sorry it took 40 years to get here, but now it's a more sure bet that if your listeners were to get on and to experience vibration, they would go, jeez, I wish I would have had this five years ago. My brother-in-law, my sister-in-law, my kids, my parents, they should be trying this for their particular needs at this time. I'm sorry it didn't happen 40 years ago, but thank goodness we have it now. Well, speaking of someone who's been using it in your clinics now for 20 years, that's a good recommendation. My kids make fun of me. They say, Dad, you're so conservative that you don't buy green bananas hoping that they turn yellow. You'll only buy yellow bananas because you know what you have. And when I was first asked to look at vibration personally, as well as for use in my clinics, I go, it's not possible. I don't believe it. I don't believe that you can create a vibration experience that allows for better circulation, better flexibility, better balance, that someone would relax and feel better. I didn't believe it. So I had to try it myself. And then just because I feel good about it, I'm a researcher. I publish. I write books. I publish papers. And if the data, if the results don't show improvement, there's got to be a reason. And one of the things that I'm really comfortable with is that I've worked with the elderly. I've worked with spinal injuries. I've worked with obese clients. I've worked with everything that's in the medical fitness spectrum. Exercise is good. And it allows me another tool in the home or in a clinical setting where they can come away saying, I got something out of that. I got, I didn't have to use the brain to tell them to fire all these muscles. I had the vibration that allowed me to help with their exercise routine. All right. Can't say better than that. Well, Dr. Convizer, thanks so much for joining us. This has been fascinating. Good luck with your clinics. Keep doing what you're doing. And I'll let you go with that. It's been a pleasure meeting you. And please tell your listeners, this is not just a one-off product. This is something that will be a life changer and give it a try. All right. Thanks very much. I hope you enjoyed this episode of the Dr. Gundry podcast. Make sure to check out the next one here. People sometimes like the fancy because they think that that's going to work better. But at the end of the day, you can be just as healthy and fit and strong by not going to the gym.