 We're going to talk about ornamental grasses. I think ornamental grasses might be the perfect perennial. They are low maintenance, drought tolerant, resist deer, and they look great all year round. What else can you ask for? So here to talk to us, give us some tips on how to grow ornamental grasses is a turf grass specialist in the Department of Plant Sciences, Alan Zook. Alan, welcome to the forums. Thanks, Tom. OK, as Tom said, I am Alan Zook. I work in the NDSU Department of Plant Sciences and feel free to email me or call me if you have any questions. Now here's a presentation I've given several times throughout the state, master gardeners, junior master gardeners, horticulture groups across the state. I think I've given this presentation to the spring fever group. If you've seen it before, I apologize if you're bored with it. But we had some requests to hear it again, to see it again. So I can do it one more time. And I made a few changes, too. But then again, if you have questions, feel free to email me or call me. My information's on the web, Department of Website, feel free. OK, so off we go. As Tom said, ornamental grasses have a lot to offer. And the neat thing about them is they're extremely low maintenance. Once you get them past that first year of establishment, they're extremely low maintenance. And they add so much to landscape. Just like woody plants, trees and shrubs, they add color, texture, form, and shape. Again, once you get them past that first year of establishment, they require very little water, if any at all. And as far as nitrogen goes, they'll get by just fine. They have extensive root systems. They can mine enough nutrients out of the ground on their own. We'll talk about fertilizing here in a bit. But really, it's just not required. They're insect and disease resistant. As far as insects go, the worst you'll deal with are grasshoppers. They'll eat a little bit of the foliage. Off they go. Diseases, maybe rust. That's about it. There again, they add to the landscape throughout the entire year, not just the growing season, but the entire year. Even winter, as long as our snows aren't deep enough and you look back, four out of the last five winters have been kind of mild up here, depending on where you're at. Very little snow. So the old ornamental grasses will stand out just fine. They establish quickly, like I said, within a year, they should be established. OK, I mentioned you don't have to water too much. But again, during that first year of establishment, sure you got the baby him alone. Mike Tyson was a baby at one time. He needed a lot of care. But after that, he was on his own and same with ornamental grasses. How often would you water? Well, that depends on environmental conditions and soil type. If it's hot, dry, get hot, dry, windy conditions on sandy soil, you might water every day. Cool conditions, clay soil. You might get by two or three times a week, watering two or three times a week. And there again, just again, after the establishment phase up, they're on their own. They reproduce easily, vegetative cuttings, about all it takes. We don't hear too much about seeding ornamental grasses because they do establish so easy by taking a cutting. And what I mean cutting with the shovel, you want to get some of that root system and then transplant after that. We'll talk about that here. There's various forms. Low, ground-hugging types. Tall, 12-footers. We have spreaders and we have clump types. OK, next one. OK, and a whole wide range of colors to choose from, foliage and flower colors. Greens, reds, purple, blues, black, white, varicated. And I'll give you some examples here. OK, next slide. This is Japanese blood grass. Very interesting one. Red foliage. It doesn't flower, but the foliage is very attractive. Now, you might have a hard time finding this in our nurseries up here in North Dakota because it's banned from the trade here in North Dakota. You're not going to get any trouble if you have it on your property, but we just can't sell it in the trade. All right, it has its problems. Well, you know, further down south, it has a tendency to get away, to escape cultivation. More of a problem in the south than up here. I mean, when it comes down to it, it's not cold-hearty. So up here, we'll treat it as an annual, but yet we can't sell it in the trade up here. We'll take Florida, for example. It's banned in Florida in the trade and you can't even have it in your possession because it can escape cultivation and it's tough enough to kill the old-growth forest. Okay, it's shade tolerant. Therefore, it can grow below a forest canopy. And what kind of soils do they have in Florida? Well, they're often sandy. They can deplete the soils of moisture and even kill old-growth forest. So for that reason, it's kind of a banned plant in various places throughout the United States. You can have it up here, but you just won't find it in the trade. But very attractive red foliage. I'm not sure what bordering states can have it in the trade. I don't know, but it can get ahold of some. You can still plant it. Treat it as an annual because it will not survive our winters up here in North Dakota. Okay, blue oat grass. Here's an example of a plant with metallic blue foliage. Very attractive. Another ornamental grass with blue foliage is ornamental blue fashqe. In my opinion, this one's even prettier because of its metallic blue foliage. If it happens to go a dull color, I'd say we have a hot summer and maybe subjected to drought, here's one that's a little bit more delicate. All you have to do is cut it down. It'll re-sprout its foliage. Again, metallic blue. Okay, it's one of my favorites. Okay. Okay, purple, purple foliage. Purple panacea, this is a zone nine plant. It's actually perennial, but in zone nine. So if you're down by Miami in Miami, Florida, it'll make it throughout the season. Up here, we treat it as an annual. You'll see it in a lot of potted plants. There's a lot, quite a bit of it here on the NDSU campus. Very fine texture, graceful flowers, and so on. On the other side, we have ornamental millet. If you're a fan of coarser texture. Okay, again, a true annual. Now this one's available at Bluebird Nursery Inn. I'm not pushing Bluebird Nursery, but there again, it's available at Bluebird Nursery Inn at Clarkson, Nebraska. I think they hold the patent rights on this one. But if you're a fan of coarser texture, purple foliage, ornamental blue millet. And look at this one. This one has black flowers, black flowering penicillin. This is a zone six plant, so we really can't grow it up here. I had a recent ornamental grass trial. I included this one in there and actually survived two winners. The winner of 2010 and 11, but it didn't look too good. So there's some promise as a foundation plant. And I'd like to do that further testing. Grow it up against the foundation of a residence on the west side or south side. I'll bet it does much better. But then again, you have to do that, but this is actually a zone six plant that can survive up here. Okay, yeah, there you go. Here's a variegated foliage. This is Japanese silvergrass, a zone five plant. I tried it in our trial and it actually survived a couple of winners, but then again, didn't look too good. And again, promise as a foundation plant. Okay, let's go to the next one. And how can we use ornamental grasses? Well, as an accent plant, for example, here it highlights a mailbox. Okay, next slide. A specimen plant. Here's a Carl Forster feather regress. What do I mean by specimen plant? Well, it's so pretty that it can stand out by itself. Arboretum quality, you could say. But what about next to a switchgrass? Is that a specimen type plant? Well, not really, but does that mean it's useless? I wouldn't say so. It's a natural grass and these look so much better planted in mass, okay, next slide. And here's an example. We have a problematic hillside, you know, the mulch is gonna wash out and who wants the moa hillside? Well, here's a good example of where planting in mass would come in handy. Now, I'd beware I wouldn't do this on a high school campus or a park because in the fall time, all this forage goes dry and on re-kids and I wanna pitch a match in there or something. They do burn and throw up a lot of heat. Yeah, not long, a short period of time, but they can do a lot of damage when they, if they're ignited. Okay, but ornamental grasses really stand out if they're planted in mass. And here's an example of how nice switchgrass looks if we're in a big mass planting. Again, they're not really suited as a specimen plant, but they're gonna make quite a statement planted in mass. Okay, next slide. Okay, grouping ornamental grasses can be used in grouping. Let's say we have an informal landscape with this water features here on the NDSU campus. And of course, we wanna match it up with an informal planting. Okay, when we think of an informal planting, we wanna work in odd numbers, three, five, sevens, and you can see that they did it here and quite effectively. Carl Forster, by the regress, and yeah, look at those clumps in odd numbers. Okay, if it was a formal planting, like a Victorian garden or a museum or a library or something like that, you wanna work in even numbers, twos, fours, sixes, and so on. But being the naturalistic feature right here, we wanna focus on odd numbers. Okay, and we can use ornamental grasses for screening, a live screen, not as costly as a wooden fence, but does the same job, okay? If privacy is what you're after, consider ornamental grasses. Here's, again, Carl Forster, by the regress, again. What are we looking at? Three to four feet, still very effective. And we have grasses that are even taller if that's your desire. Okay, and like Tom said earlier, ornamental grasses provide something in the landscape during all four seasons. Here's a winter feature right here. Typically, we get more snow than that, but there again, four out of the last five winters, not much snow, so imagine walking through this scene on a February day where it's maybe something bearable, 20, 30 degrees, low wind. It might bring back memories of a summer picnic with the family. In the rustling, just the rustling of the canes, these old skeleton features that remain, are quite, it's quite pleasing. Okay, so there again, ornamental grasses have something to offer during all four seasons. Now, here's a landscape, a low maintenance landscape out of McDonald's down in Kansas, where I grew up. Planned out properly and quite effectively. Because ornamental, look at the Japanese bloodgrass up against the red brick. These are analogous colors. These are colors that are found next to each other on the color wheel. Okay, if that's your desire, yeah, red on red or perhaps a red on orange, something like that. And in the same feature, we have complementary colors. Look at the, it's a mescanthus right in the corner. Greens and reds are opposite on the color wheel. These are complementary colors. So here's a landscape that was done quite effectively. Usually somebody will pick the same theme, complementary colors or analogous colors. Well, here we have both, but still quite effective with proper planning. Okay, a good example of different colors available, different textures, different heights and so on. Very attractive, low maintenance landscape. Okay, next slide now. What do you think about this one? Poor planning and what are we left with? It's a big mess. What's the main feature of a front yard landscape? Well, it's the front door, isn't it? Is the front door in this case, the focal piece of that front yard landscape? Well, no, it's not. What is, what stands out more than anything? It's that hardy bamboo, right? Again, we can't grow that up here in North Dakota. That's a zone five, six plant. Here we're zone four, eight. All right, at least in Southern North Dakota we are. But again, I would say, looking at maybe the homeowner thinks that's a pretty landscape. You know, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but when I see this, I say, first thing I think of is improper planning. Remember, the focal point of a front yard landscape should be the front door. The landscape should be designed in such a way that your eyes are pulled toward that front door. And it says welcome, okay? All right, well, some proper, let's talk about cultural practices. As far as light, most ornamental grasses prefer a full sun. There are some, though, that thrive in shade, or tolerate shade at least. So they need the proper light exposure, okay? Watering. After that first year, it's usually not required unless you can work more in a severe drought and the leaves start to wilt. Well, how does a grass leaf wilt? Does it bend over like a candy cane? No, it twists. It twists like a newspaper. Okay, if you ever see signs of that, well, it's time to apply a little water, but as far as ornamental grasses go, it's not very often. Okay, fertilization, just not required. The extensive root systems are able to, like I said, mine the necessary nutrients out of the soil. If you insist on fertilizing, no more than one pound of nitrogen per thousand square feet per year. Okay, if you overdo it, over water and over fertilize, the taller plants tend to fall down. Okay, we've given them too much care and they fall down. Well, in that case, drive a pole down the middle and tie them back up, but we've lost that natural form, if that's the case. Next year, learn from your mistakes, back off on the love, and they'll do just fine. Okay, if, again, if your ornamental grasses fall over, you've given them too much care. Let's take a look at the cool-season grasses. They grow best in air temperatures of 60 to 75 degrees. That's the optimum range. Will they grow out of that range? Well, sure they will, but then this is just the optimum range. Does it get hotter and warmer than 75 degrees here in North Dakota? Yes, it does, and our cool-season ornamental grasses do just fine. Cool-season grasses typically flower in the spring, and then if it's hot enough, they'll go dormant in the summer. Well, it's usually not that hot that appeared, I mean, this far north, so they usually stay green throughout the growing season. And as far as dividing, cool-season grasses, our choices are spring and fall. I'll come back to that in a minute. Let's go into warm-season grasses. Warm-season grasses grow best in air temperatures of 80 to 95 degrees, and they usually flower in the summer, okay? They're tough enough to make it through the growing season in a green color. They're not gonna go dormant, but the neat thing about them is that they'll turn a crimson color in the fall, to some extent. Maybe not full-on crimson, but a light crimson color. Others, like Little Bluestam, will turn completely crimson. It's one of the nice, attractive things about Little Bluestam. As far as dividing warm-season grasses, this has to be done in the spring. You can't really do it in the fall because they should be established as they go into winter, okay? So warm-season grasses divide them in the spring, okay? Now, how do we go about dividing? Well, the first thing you wanna look for is that dead center. If you see a dead center in your clump-type grasses, you might think, well, I've done something wrong. Well, that's not the case. This is just natural. When that dead center becomes obvious, it stands out as the canes are blowing in the wind. Well, it's time to divide that grass. And I've seen this dead center develop in ornamental grass that's just one year old. It's just natural. But when it becomes very obvious, well, it's time to divide. Okay, well, how do we go about dividing? Well, you have two options. You can dig that clump out of the ground and then section off that ring. Give it to your neighbors, give it to your friends, relatives, so on. Save one for yourself. Backfill the hole with clean soil and replant the little section in the middle, okay? Another option is just to take bites out of that ring. It's the easier way to go, but it's problems arise. Let's go on to the next slide. I'll give you an example. If you have a clump-type grass and you just take the easy way out, you're gonna let someone take a bite out of it with a shovel. Well, that's just fine, but that gap's never gonna close in. Okay, so if you wanna go that route, take a bite from the backside of the plant instead of the front side. Because, like I said, on a clump-type grass, that gap's just not gonna fill in. It's like a pretty smile with a missing tooth. Okay, next slide. Still another example. This is little blue stem, and look how it's turned crimson. This is the fall. It's a picture taken in the fall. Someone took a bite out of that plant in the front, and it's never gonna fill in. This is from my collection when I worked out at Kansas State as a technician. We had a huge ornamental grass collection down there. We'd get people coming in off the road asking if they can take a piece. I'm sure you can't. Take it from the back of the plant. Well, they snuck a piece from the front side. And there again, that's pretty smile with a tooth missing, all right? Next slide. Cleanup, how do you go about cleanup? Well, you have two options. Cut them down in the fall, or cut them down in the spring. Well, like we said earlier, they do add ornamental value in the winter months if the snow's not that deep. So you might wanna save cleanup till spring. Well, I like to use a heavy horsepower line trimmer with a blade attachment. And it makes cleanup so quick. Okay, and I usually use a bungee cord to tie it off in the middle. Look at that picture on the right where I'm cutting away at the base. Can you see that bungee cord? Twine works just fine. Tie it off, cut it at the bottom. Two to three inches off the ground is fine. I've seen people cut it at 12 inches. But if you go down two or three inches, you're in good shape. You don't wanna cut the entire crown off at ground level. Two to three inches is just fine. Okay, next slide. And you can see how easy cleanup is. There's no raking. If you tie it off first, throw it in your truck, drive it off or stack it up at the bottom of the driveway. And just tie it off before you cut. It's an easy way to go. Another option's fire. Okay, this is probably the easiest way to go. Just make sure you're not by a permanent structure. House or garage or something like that. Again, this is the turf management center. I mean, the turf grass research center that I managed at Kansas State. And that's our maintenance shop. That's about 20 feet away from the fire. But still I had one of our students out there with a garden hose. Every time I burned in the spring, he or she was out there with a garden hose just wetting down the backside of that shed. I didn't want the paint blistering. Winds could shift and then you have a problem. So they were out there with a hose in case the wind got away and shifted on us and the fire got away. Okay, next slide. Look at the lower right. See those cedar trees back there? Well, the wind shifted on us one year and actually burned those cedar trees severely. But they actually repaired, healed themselves within five years. Okay, so that's why you always want a hose on hand. There it is, you're gonna throw a lot of heat for a short amount of time. Okay, but this is the easiest way to clean up your old ornamental grass residue or foliage from last year. Another problem is, go ahead and back up one more time. Can you go back one? Okay, there. The big problem with this method is that you're gonna lose a lot of mulch in the process and you have to pull up those plastic labels because you're gonna lose them. Okay, so plan ahead, think ahead. Okay, call the fire department, let them know you're gonna be burning and make sure all that mulch is out before you walk away from it. Just wet it down. You can see how it's smoldering in the lower picture. If it's a windy day, you know, those embers can fly off. Just be aware of that. Okay, now we're ready for the next slide. Again, I burned it off in the spring and about eight weeks later, look at that. Everything returned, we're back in business. It's just burning. Will not hurt the ornamental grasses. I haven't burned one year where we had about 12 inches of growth at the bottom. I didn't wanna do that. I just couldn't get to it. You know, that's just basically lost energy. But still, the plants recovered. They're resilient. This is how nature does it. Again, you can burn them off if they're far enough away from any permanent structures. Okay, I always had, again, be concerned. Look at that house in the background. Wooden shingles and all that. They always kind of gave me nightmares at night time. I hope I got all those embers out. Anyway, never any problems except I torched those juniper trees one year. They wound up healing themselves in five years. But that's about eight weeks after burn, back in shape, we're ready for another season. I think that's it. That's it. Okay, any questions? How are we gonna handle questions? Are you gonna read them off to me? Yeah, I got a question right here for ya. Okay. First question, driving around the Bismarck area, you see a five foot tall grass with a head on it that's about six inches long. It grows in low areas sometimes by cat tails and they grow in large masses. Do you have any idea what type of grass that might be? That's probably cord grass. Is this a grass that grows in ditches? Right. Yeah, that's cord grass. Five feet tall? Yeah, okay. You bet, you bet. It can be used as an ornamental but it's kind of invasive, so you wanna watch out. And on this garden there, so that was cord grass. How about on this person has Japanese Amur grass? Have you ever heard that? Japanese Amur, I would sure help if I had a Latin name but I'm thinking it's one of the miscanthus. How would you kill it? You've tried Roundup. Roundup doesn't work, is it a clump type or a spreader? Maybe they'll get back to us there but if it's clump type, dig it out. Okay, but I assume it's a spreader and it's just almost impossible. Well, Roundup won't work. If the foliage is green, it should work but it's gonna take several applications. A lot of times I work with turf grass primarily and dealing with the Bermuda grasses down in Kansas, even the Zoysia grasses. Might take two or three applications to get a good kill. I think you can do it with Roundup. There again, one application's probably not gonna do it. You wanna make sure the foliage is green when you spray and I would use a full rate two ounces per gallon. On this particular grass but you might have to hit it three times. Okay, spray it and then wait two weeks. I'd actually water it to bring back the green foliage, hit it again and perhaps maybe even a third time. I think Roundup will do the trick at full rate. Is there a time of the year that would be best? Just when the foliage is actively growing, when the plant's actively growing. But again, if it's a clump type, you can dig it out but I assume it's a spreader if it's that tough to take care of. But I think Roundup at full rate is gonna do the job. And you mentioned some of these perennial grasses but they're only hardy to zone six to nine and we grow them as an animal. How large of these grasses get? How tall can they get in one year? Well, the first year, oh, what, Barry? It's their only year. Somebody said, oh, okay, I see, I see. Well, the purple penicidums, there are several cultivars out there. I've seen them get four feet tall in one year. Even in a pot. Okay, even in a pot. I would expect the same thing, three feet, four feet tall for a miscanthus. Now we are now officially in zone 4A since 2012 when the USDA revised their hardiness on that. I still think a lot of these plants can make it, even some of the zone fives can make it as a foundation plant. Okay, I know I'm getting a little off subject right here but I think there's some promise for it. I've tried a few of them, they actually survived but they didn't look too good. Again, my study was a low maintenance study. I bet if I got out there and watered them, they'd do much better. I did water them the first year of establishment but after that, they only, again, care I provided was weed management, okay? Oh, Bob, can you recommend an ornamental grass for the shade? The shade, there are several of them out there. Japanese blood grass, if you can get ahold of it, survives in shade. Northern, I got a few notes here. Northern sea oats will make it, okay? And here's a perennial. Again, zone five or six for Northern sea oats, it's probably not gonna survive out in the open but as a foundation plant, it will. Autumn more grass, Tullarista shade. Reed grass, autumn blooming, reed grass will survive light shade. As soon as I say that's it, there's gonna be another one. Tufted hair grass will survive light shade. So we have a few of them out there. That'll make it, if you want a longer list, email me, I'll provide you with a better list. This is a few notes here in the restaurant at the top of my head. Right. How about, are there any ornamental grasses that are especially invasive? Yes, yes, that's a good question. When Japanese or Chinese silvergrass, silver banner grass is one that's quite invasive. In fact, it is the most cold-hearty miscanthus. We can grow it up here in North Dakota does quite well but it is invasive. It can be a problem, okay? It's normally a clump grass but then again, it has a tendency to creep out too. We often see that with our clump type grasses. They are slightly rhizomaceous but here's one that's very rhizomaceous. It'll look good for a couple of years but then it will escape if you let it, okay? Again, just one example. Oh, there were several out there. I grew sweet grass one year. Again, it's an interesting one. Very fragrant, especially the roots. If you ever try to trim sweet grass back, it's like somebody broke a perfume bottle next year but there's one that will take over. Ribbon grass can be very invasive if you let it go. Oh gosh, now. Maybe blue line grass. That's what I was saying, blue line grass. Yes, that will get away from getting blue line grass and there's a closely related one that's close to blue line grass. The name escapes me right now but there are several invasive ones. You can try some metal edging. If you can get a hold of some four to six inch metal edging, it does a lot to contain these plants but some of the really aggressive ones like Tom said, blue line grass, I think would go under the edging and then wind up on the other side. I'd be hesitant to plant that unless you had concrete edging like a curb or something like that to contain it. Can you give an example of some of the most hardy ornamental grasses, ones that would survive zone three? Well, again, I mentioned the silver banner grass, the scant of Sacropholius. This is a silver banner grass, does well. Zone three ribbon grass does well up here. I'll get the natives, big blue stem, little blue stem. They do find Indian grass, switch grass. They'll make it up here. I think you look at some books, they'll rate those as zone fours and maybe even a zone five in some literature but I've tried them, they do well up here. Okay, and as far as the switch grasses go, we've all seen them before but there are some attractive ones with blue foliage. Heavy metals, an example. It does well up here in zone three. Well, we're officially zone four now. I suppose this person might be from Northern North Dakota, okay? Okay, so anyway, those grasses that I mentioned will do well. Again, if you wanna email me, I'll give you a longer list. Okay. So you like, among varieties of switch grass, you like heavy metals. Heavy metals, a nice one. Blue foliage, a little bit shorter, more compact about bell tie, okay? It's a cleaner looking switch grass and blue foliage, it does just fine up here. How about is Pampas grass hardy here? Pampas grass, no it's not hardy, it's hardy to zone eight. Pampas grass is native to the Pampas region of Argentina. Okay, we had one called hardy Pampas grass but that's not a true Cordedaria. That one's an Arianthus and it's not even hardy up here. It's hardy in zone five. You get problems growing that north of Omaha. Okay, how about Zebra grass? Zebra grass hardy. Yeah, grew it up here. It survived a couple of winters but it looked like it just looked bad. It came out of a bar fight. Now there's one I think that'll do well as a foundation plant. What does it look like? Like a step out of a bar fight. It just looked beat up after that first winter. I think it has promised as a foundation plant on the south to the west side of your house. Porcupine grass, same way. Okay, how about... Do you have any experience with North Wind Panicum virginum? Panicum virginum, yes. Switchgrass, North Wind, we did grow it, did well. That's a switchgrass. It is a switchgrass, yes it is. How about, is there an issue with the seeds causing problems spreading? So, that's a good question. Some of them. Panacetam is probably the worst but we can't grow panacetam up here. That's a stone six plant. I had one survive, one winter. If you grow it as a foundation plant, get ready for bunch of little seedlings around your house. A lot of the ornamental grasses produce a sterile seed like the miscanthus. Don't worry about miscanthus at all. Some do, the best I can answer some do and most do not cause problems. But the one that's really problematic would be the panacetam. But for the most part we just can't grow them up here. How about when you divide normal grass, do you have to bring in clean soil? Well, the backfill, it's just a good idea. I'd come in with a good soil that's clean just so you're not bringing any risommation weeds or problematic weeds or so on. That's why I used to face clean soil. No, I mean it's not necessary. In fact, most of the grasses will do well in hard clay. But try to come in with the nicest soil you can find. It's just not necessary if I had the choice, I'd come in with a clean new soil of some sort. How about as far as the value of ornamental grasses for pollinators? Do the non-native ornamental grasses have any value? Oh, there's an extra question. Some do, but honestly I cannot tell you which ones right off the bat. There are some that suit well as pollinators. I'm sorry, there's one I can't answer for yet. Oh, no worries. This person planted two different types of grasses. You don't know if they're a clump or not. If I find out they, I don't know if they are a clump or not, if I find out they are not a clump, right? And I want to get rid of it this spring. What do I do? Well, I wouldn't get rid of it just because they're not a clump grass. What you can do is just cut the runners as you see them. And they're not going to move overnight. One or two months into the summer, they might be four feet long. Just cut them off at the mother plant, dig them up. That's how you manage the spread. Again, just dig out the mother plant. Try to catch the spreaders and it's problem solved. Okay, I dug out some silver banner grass that was in the ground next to Lafescourt Hall probably for 10 years. I stayed at it for a couple hours and got it all out. Got the main plant out, got the runners out and I found a few the following spring. Dug them out. That's probably the best way to go. Again, if you want to go the roundup route. That's right, spray the foliage and be careful not to spray the desirable plant. Right, watch out. Don't do it on a windy day. Keep in mind you might have to do three applications to get a good kill. Okay, do you consider Carl Forrester regress invasive? No, it is a true clump grass. It's a beautiful grass, but my opinion is a little over planted, but it's probably one of the best selections we have here in North Dakota. It is not an invasive grass at all. And again, you like heavy metal switch grass. That's one of my favorite blue foliage. A couple of them out there. Couple blue foliage switch grasses, but that's my favorite. It's my favorite. That standard switch grass can get six feet tall in flower, but then this one's more compact, maybe belt high, three or four feet closer to a three and a half feet tall, tighter, cleaner form blue foliage. It's just one of my favorite switch grasses. Do you have besides that Carl Forrester the regress, do you have some other examples of non-spreading grasses that you recommend? Sure, there's a close relative fall blooming regress. Okay, it's a cool season grass. Oh no, no, no. It's a warm season grass that flowers in summer. Okay, it's non-invasive. Yeah, as soon as you ask this, I'm freezing up here. I'm trying to think back on what we grew in that I mentioned, what was that blue foliage plant I showed you earlier? That's a nice one that does blue out grass. There's one that's not gonna spread on you at all. Oh, let me go back. I mentioned a viable seed. If you do plant Northern Sea Oats, there's one that can sprout by seed. There's another one. But going back to the tight fit, tight, true clump grasses, again, the regresses won't spread. Again, the blue grass won't spread at all. It's a nice one. Okay, there's a, I can't think of any more right off the top of my head. Can that famous Japanese Amore grass, the person says it is a spreader that she wants to, it's a spreading grass she wants to kill. Okay, is it well established or did it? Oh, I'm trying to figure it out. Can't kill it. Maybe, let me know how old it is. If it's been in the ground for 10 years, I think your best bet is to use Roundup, okay? If it's recently planted, just dig it out. Dig out the few runners and you're back in shape, okay? Another one, let me talk about Sky Racer, autumn more grass. There's one that will not spread. Okay, very interesting flowers. The flower stalks can get up to six feet tall, very cold hardy. This is a pretty graceful plant. True clump will not spread. I really like the flowering structures. Very interesting plant. The foliage is about two feet tall, but the flower stalks are about six feet tall. Very graceful. Sky Racer, autumn more grass and it will tolerate filter genie, okay? How about, you know, you talked about how a well-established planting can die out in the center. Yes. Now, with Carl Forster feathery grass, if you've got a dead center, can you just dig that area out and stick another Carl Forster? Yeah, Carl Forster's not gonna get that white at the base, maybe two feet wide at the base. If the dead center's gotten that big, I would just, again, dig out the plant, put a new one in. You can take part of the living ring if you wanna go that way, but re-establishment is quicker the bigger the clump, okay? Does that make sense to you? If it's that big that the Carl Forster, if you could see the dead center in the Carl Forster, I would just dig it out and replace it, okay? Or, again, try to take part of the living ring out, group them in there together, and go that route. How about for these Zone 5, Zone 6 grasses, would it help to mulch them to help survive? Yes, mulching does help, okay? It does help conserve water, and mulching for the most part will provide an extra, well, you read the literature maybe four or five degrees. I don't know if that amounts to much, but the deeper the mulch, the warmer it's gonna be. You can try that, just bury the warm, if you wanna try a Zone 5 or 6 up here out in the open, yeah, I would certainly mulch it. Once fall sets in, late fall arrives, and see what happens. I've never tried it this far north, but I think it would work, but I still think a lot of these plants have a lot of promise. Even the fives and the sixes have a lot of promise as a foundation plant. I'd like to try that in the research, but I haven't yet, but from what I've seen, some of them were able to make it out in the open. They survived one or two winners, but just didn't look that good the following spring. That's right, Eln. Have you ever heard of working with Mother Nature instead of challenging Mother Nature? Well, she usually wins the game. Well, we wanna push the limits. You're a true scientist. This back is more grass, you know? She wants to kill it without using chemicals. Well, okay, now you have to dig it. That's your only option right there. Dig it out. You've heard of, you know, I've heard of vinegar, but no, that plant's too much. It's not gonna do anything. Okay, how about? You'll have to dig it out. There you go. How about, somebody, I said, use boiling water. Well, yeah, in fact, there's a machine out there. The company's pushing. For turf leaves, boiling water, I know these plants are too tough. The root systems are too extensive that boiling water's gonna kill the foliage, but it's just gonna bounce back. You'll be disappointed. That's right. See, I mean, it's flame throwers. Yeah, it's gonna burn the foliage. You know, we have these. Those aren't done. Sure, we have them. The energy is used for flame throwers. They don't get the entire root system of an aggressive plant. Right, right. The fire's just not gonna be hot enough to kill the root system. That's right. How about, do you have any writing names of native badlands tall grasses? Oh, I don't even know. That's an email question for me. Send that to me, tall grasses. No, I'm sorry, right off the top of my head, no, I know some short grasses, but not tall grasses. Wow, you sure got a lot of questions down. There's a lot of interest in this. Well, I got time, so keep it coming. Okay, I think, are there any other questions out there, or if I skipped any, people can type them in again. Do you have a comment about purple flame or purple flame grass? You ever heard that one? Purple flame, I'm not familiar with that common name. Again, a scientific name would really help if you had it. And a good resource on ornamental grasses if they wanted to learn more about that. There are many good resources. I like the Encyclopedia of ornamental grasses by, last name is Greeley. I know it's an older book, but it's color pictures, glossy color pictures, but it's one of my favorites. I think you can still find it out there on eBay. Maybe there's an updated edition, but I've had that on my shelf for 20 years. It's just my favorite. Okay, there are a lot of, again, a lot of publications out there, but there's one that I can recommend. It's a really nice one. I think University of Minnesota, do they have a lot of extensions? Yes, yes they do. Yeah, I'll try University of Minnesota Extension Service. That's Mary Meijer. That's right, Mary Meijer has a lot of nice extension-type publications with glossy pictures. Okay, just suited for our area. Okay, there's a question about, it's a miscanthus. Maybe it's the spurting grasses on the scampus. The scampus tendus. Purple flame is on the scampus. Okay, I'll have to look at that cultivar. A lot of the miscanthus do, or they're primarily a clump-type grass, but some of them produce aggressive rhizomes. Okay, I'm not familiar with that cultivar, but it doesn't surprise me if it's starting to spread. And is it hardy? It's no, well, good question. Most miscanthus are zone five, six. Okay, I'm aware of one that's in zone four, but I can't say for sure about that one. Okay, I see no other questions. And while we just had, I don't know what you call it, got a long bunch of questions. That's the real question of four. Feel free to email me. You might give me, I have seven, I'm teaching seven classes this semester online. Just seven? So it might take me two or three days to get your answer back to you, but I will answer your question. So feel free to email me. Okay. I'm sorry for the ones I couldn't answer tonight, but I have. Thank you. I'll get you an answer. Your great resource. Your great resource. Thank you for your, thank you for your talk. Go ahead to be here. We had great talks tonight. It was really interesting material, just fascinating stuff we had in all three presentations tonight. And we wanna thank all our speakers and thank the audience. And thank you for your question. We're gonna go at it again next Monday. Next Monday we're gonna be talking about trees. So we look forward to that. So we'll see you next Monday at the Spring Theater Garden forums. Thank you everybody. Thank you.