 Good morning, Tracy. How are things for you today? Not too bad. How are you, Hart? A little busy, but, you know, that's, that's life, right? I'm just ready for the holidays. Yep. Do you have any exciting plans or? Nope. Just relaxing. Yeah, just stay at home. That's sometimes the best. I think so. Just, you know, How about you? Anything special? Nothing too exciting. I'm going to my girlfriend's parents' house. For a little while in rural Rhode Island. Oh. So it'll be quiet. Yeah. Little colder than I'd like, but. I have to break out my old winter clothing. Use like once a year now. Like, is this still something I can put on myself? I don't know. I have not a lot of clothes that are for cold weather. So. Yeah, same and all mine are like, oh man, they're approaching like 15 years old. I went to college in the Northeast and then I've been out in California ever since and I've just used them so little that it's, I still basically have the same ones because like, do I really want to replace them for like one time a year? Right. So. Sort of a. Yeah. Don't need it. Don't need it. I guess where you live either. So. No, not typically. Although it was 37 degrees when I woke up this morning. So. Mm hmm. It got down to 41 in San Francisco this week. Which is. Very surprising. Yeah, quite. Not normal. Since this starts recording. When the first person joins the meeting. I will leave it up to you to declare when the meeting has started. We'll give a, we'll give a few more moments. People are still joining and we don't yet seem to have. A quorum from the TSE membership. I'll, I only saw one regrets. From Jim. Yeah, showed up. I don't know if. TSC members saw the. Contribution. Campaign swag packs. Or put in form, but. We've got an email. You should be able to get a free one. Yeah, mine showed up this week. Cool. Let's go ahead and get started. Thank you all for joining the December 16th call with the TSC. As you all probably are aware, although we do have a couple guests today and welcome to our guest. You, there are two things that you have to abide by at the TSC meetings. The first one is the antitrust policy notice, which is displayed on the screen. And the second one is our code of conduct, which is linked in the agenda. So with that, we'll hit the announcements. As always. In the announcements, we have the dev weekly developer newsletter that goes out each Friday. So if you are interested in including anything in that dev weekly newsletter, there is link on the agenda to a wiki page where you can add your comments for inclusion in the, in the dev weekly newsletter. So feel free to add anything that you might have about your particular project or anything that's interesting going on specifically in your community or working through for SIG. So that's one of the things that we have highlighted to reach the community of hyper ledger developers. The second announcement that we have here is just a reminder that next week and the following weeks, meetings are canceled due to the end of your holidays. We will pick up the meetings the first week in January. And obviously enjoy the time off. And that's the announcements that are listed here. Does anybody else have any announcements that they would like to make? I'm going to say there's one more for Dan. Daniela has an announcement by see a rune raises hands. So a rune. Hey, probably it's not an announcement. It's just a heads up because next couple of weeks, we're not going to have a call. If we had then maybe a few people would have joined and updated it. So some of the sakes and the chapters we are planning to collaborate across and run a long running hyper ledger challenge. It's going to be a long running challenge, not exactly a hackathon. The goal is to have more open source contributions and then bring in more people contributing into hyper ledger and also bring in new projects into labs. So that's an heads up. If you have some more details will be shared across over an email and also it will be shared across in coming weeks. And if you have any needs within your projects or if you have needs, let's say within some of your six that you participate, please bring in those problem statements and this challenge. So that's the heads up. Thank you. Great. Thanks. So another way to get additional contributors to the, your projects, your six, your working groups, your labs. Anybody else have any announcements they'd like to make? Well, Danielle hasn't unmuted. So there's, there's Danielle. Go ahead. What was my announcement? Well, okay, fine. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Who many of you know from the community has joined hyper ledger as, as my peer. And I'm excited to have him here on the team. Working. On, on a hyper ledger. So Daniela, Sean. Thanks, Ryan. Thanks, Daniel. And I'm super psyched to be here. So. And to be back. Actually. Yeah, it's really great to have Sean. I'm really excited to be here. And I'm excited to be here as well as the team continues to put new programs into place. We're excited. Working on our planning for 2022. And Sean, a big welcome. A welcome back and a welcome to the staff. Here at hyper ledger and the Linux foundation. All right, great. Thanks for that. And Sean. Really glad to see you again. Welcome to the community architecture role. Anybody else have any announcements they'd like to make? So with no more announcements, we will head to the quarterly reports. As you can see, we have a couple of reports that are outstanding and overdue. We did get in the firefly. Report. Which from what I could see. I didn't necessarily have any questions. Or comments that need to be addressed. We do still have. Looks like about six people who haven't yet reviewed the, the report. So definitely if you're a TSE member, don't forget, there are a number of reports that do need your reviews. So if you, you know, would take the time to do that, that would be greatly appreciated by the projects. Are there any questions that didn't get addressed or added to the. Firefly report that needs to be addressed. So in the firefly report, I think maintainer diversity is only the one company now. So what are the plan of the maintainers project maintainers to increase their option or maybe increase the diversity of the developers. It's a good question. I don't see that we have anybody from firefly on the call. I would recommend Cummless adding that question to the report. If we can get some answers that. Hi, I know that through the giving chain project, we took a break when the mentorship pro program was over and we intend to come back in the new year and help. I know the mentees are definitely ready to get started again, helping the firefly people. So I believe that they will become contributors to firefly in January. I think the, I think the question is more around the maintainers looking at the contributor diversity report. That was added. Thinking to the LFX insights. I did see that there was. A 25% increase of contributors. Over the past three months. But I do think the question around. 100% collido maintainers is a, is a question that we. You know, should. Should close to the firefly community. And definitely work towards increasing that. Diversity. Well, maybe one of the mentees one day will be a maintainer is Michael. That's how you start. Right. So it is a contributor work your way up. Okay. Any other, any other questions or comments that we should make sure we're addressing to the firefly community. Yeah. As far as that goes, Nico did share on the maintainers list this week of presentation that they put together about their community building efforts so far. And I do believe in there. He flags that finding and, you know, bringing new maintainers on is a challenge. So just one thought for us is. What sort of guidance from, from the more mature projects, are there tips or suggestions or ideas? Like, do we have like a best practice guide for perhaps finding maintainers? That could be a thing to think about, you know, what. If they're raising their hand and saying, yeah, we really want some, but it's a challenge. How do we want to, you know, guide them perhaps. Sure. Yeah. So I think there's a, anybody have any thoughts on that from the perspective of how they have added maintainers to their existing projects. And Kamalash, I'm not yet. Okay. Thanks. I was, I wasn't sure if your hand was up to answer that, or if you had a follow up there. So I think. My hands. Yeah, so to increase the diversity. Of the blockchain automation framework. They extended the, the committers and the contributors in the very short time. Similarly, if Clyde, Clyde and the, the five light team, maybe do some POCs or maybe involve the community, talk to the SIGs or regional chapters, do some kind of workshops to get the more involvement to the project. Okay. Anybody else have any ideas or suggestions that we can offer. Two projects as they want to increase their maintainer diversity. A root. Hey, probably one good thing about firefly report, at least for the last quarter has been from the LFX insights. It's just that 3% or maybe three people have. Engaged themselves from the contributors and there is increase of 25. At the same time. So there is some engagement from the contributors. So it's not one of contributions that we are seeing for outside Kaleido, but it's still a question that we need to get through them and ask them. What is the timeframe that they are looking for from an external engagement point of view. For them to be considered as a maintainer. In terms of PRs count that LFX insight tells us. It's close to 85% of PRs that are coming in from one organization as opposed to 15% from rest of those 45% people coming in from different organizations. Maybe that's another question that we can talk to them talk through them about. And I recall seeing on the DCI mailing list, Karen, you had sent out a report on increasing diversity and inclusion amongst projects and David, I think your response back pulled out some of the pieces of that. And one of them was making sure that projects document the process by which people can become not only contributors, but maintainers as well. And I think that's a really good point and maybe something that I'm not aware when we're the other whether or not Firefly has that or which of our projects do have that, but that's definitely something that I think was a worthwhile call out for us to, you know, look at as a community to see about increasing diversity of both contributors and maintainers. Yeah, that's a really good point. I don't know exactly what we would do, but maybe just reviewing and understanding where that documentation exists and where it doesn't kind of maybe that mapping exercise could be a good point that can give us some direction about where maybe we could provide some support to fill some areas in. Yeah, definitely. Okay, anything else then on the quarterly reports. Obviously we have now four that are outstanding. That haven't yet been reported on and then we have four that are coming up that will be looking at in the new year as well. So just recognizing that if you are a project maintainer or community in the community of these projects, letting them know that their reports are due is something that I think is important and I know that Dano has been reaching out to these projects as well to try and get people to put their reports in. So just, you know, this is a lot of outstanding, I guess, quarterly reports that we have. So with that, we do have a decision on the list here for the TSE member attendance of project meetings the issue that was created last week by heart. I did not see any additional comments added to this. So I'm going to assume that based on that, that everybody thinks that this is ready to go as is. But before we call this for a vote, I'd like to see if there's any discussion on this. That maybe didn't get added into the issue that should have been added into the issue. All right. So seeing no hands. I think. Do we have a motion to put this to a vote? I move we vote. All right. Thanks, Nathan. You have a second. All right. I think there were a couple of seconds there. I definitely heard Peter. So let's go ahead and put this to a vote. So, I think that was a good one. Right. Did you want to. To orchestra vote. Sure. I didn't think this really need to be a roll call vote. But if that's what you would like. Troy. Troy, in the matter before the TSE, how do you vote? I didn't hear a vote. I don't think we need a roll call. Yeah. Me either. The reason I'm asking for a roll call is because I'm not a person with a crew and there's a lot of. Engagement from the TSE and so I want to make sure that people are engaged in these conversations. So I'm going to force a roll call rise. Okay. I will start. Make sense. Actually. Yeah. That's a very good point. Tracy, because it does require us to actually do something here, right? It's not just. Oh, you, but yes. you know basically implement that plan so okay I'm gonna start over again at the bottom Troy how do you vote Troy sorry I apologize guys I actually missed the the topic on this one I'm really sorry okay um you can abstain I mean I'll abstain okay Tracy yes Peter yes Nathan yes Kamlesh yes it looks like Jim is still not here heart yes Grace yes David yes Dano yes Bobby yes Arun yes Artem yes Arno yes Jim sent regrets I I know um and uh Angelo is uh not here either so we have uh the motion passes with one abstain okay so in the new year um please at least one meeting uh per month attend uh as a TSC member real work you know yep exactly all right so the the second uh item here is in our discussions uh we do have a draft that is out there again I did not see any sort of comments uh showing up in this document this week for these services for graduated projects versus incubated projects versus labs but I do want to make sure that if anybody has any comments that they would like to add anything that they see that's missing that they would like to make sure that is being provided by the hyper ledger staff that that does get into this document and plus one what Tracy said we definitely do want some feedback I mean if it doesn't happen to be the feedback today you know we can always you know have additional discussion going forward but you know our goal with documenting this information more clearly is to make sure that projects and labs have what the leaders of those projects and labs need to be successful so you know that really requires input from you know the people involved to say hey this is something we do need and we don't have clarity about it or this is great and you know um but the more feedback I think the better on this so please if you have thoughts we live here yeah so I went through the document earlier and I have to say I mean I didn't see anything that shocked me so that's the good news uh uh you know I kind of wish that the document were built in a way and so this brings a question to me it's like you know I would expect levels to to to kind of build onto one another you know what I mean is like I would imagine lab kind of is the minimum and then you say oh incubating projects have everything the labs get plus those things and the graduated projects have everything the incubating projects plus those things but you know the document wasn't built that way and I felt like well if I say that I'm gonna say well thanks but this is extra work and I wasn't really to want to do the work so I kind of hesitated to say it but it fundamentally it also raises the question is that actually the case do do those you know are those those levels do they exist do we have this kind of like increasing level of services which I would expect but maybe is not really like this I don't know is there anything a graduated project gets that an incubating project doesn't go the other way around right there right at the top of the list um the paid subscriptions here um the one that we pay the most for the ones that we pay the most for our artifactory and circle ci those are the largest uh I guess those aren't capex drains um npm is very little money in docker hub is non-zero money but artifactory and circle ci are the two uh that we definitely gate yeah no I I understand that I'm sorry I misspoke I mean I really meant the other way around is there anything an incubating project has that the graduated project doesn't I would not expect that so I you know it seems to me that it would make it easier to digest this document if it was built as you know a growing list with incubating and then graduating saying you have everything the incubating projects have plus those things so you can see exactly what the delta is that's what I would want to make the project or I would want to make the documentation more digestible I guess my thought was that projects don't necessarily go through things linearly like that like you don't necessarily become a lab first than an incubation project so you know that was my thought to kind of treat them like fully document each because you may come in at that a given level not the level before right yeah I I think um I'll let dano talk and then I'll I have a maybe maybe I have a comment on that as well but dano I'll let you go first yeah to touch back to our nose point one of the reasons that I asked for this for the staff to put this together just to figure out what the graduation things are you know what extra do you get at the next level um and I think starting out this way I mean you just go through you think well what is it that they get this though it's just a formatting issue to try and change how we present it you know we could do the charm everything but you know when I was looking through this and I was looking through what incentive does the project have to go to graduate it it was there was no centralized place to even look up this information and be sure that this is what we get so I think this is a step towards that direction um and I don't think it'll take too much to reformat it in one of those um good better best plans like you might get from web hosting or something so I think we'll get there but I think the big thing that just pointed out here is there's not a huge difference between an incubating and a graduated project so Dan would I make that correct Claire you're suggesting there's there should be more of a difference actually I am because I think there should be more of a carrot to go to graduate rather than staying indefinitely in incubation because the phrase incubation implies you're going to leave you're going to grow or you're not going to be viable anymore it you know the the main incubation I like it because it implies it's not a steady state it's you know it's a transitory state like inflation and I agree sorry go ahead no go ahead I was gonna say I agree and I do think there should be a you know a substantial difference to offer that carrot and maybe some of those differences are subtle but I think there definitely are things that would incentivize somebody to go through there like maybe the way that we phrased it doesn't like highlight what those differences are enough but I feel like there are significant differences but again maybe subtle I think it's I think the document as it's written as Arnaud has alluded to is difficult to see that right you know it could be the formatting that Arnaud recommends it could be we put together some sort of a chart that is check check not checked right it really shows you what the the true differences are if it's wording though that is making them different then that has to be somehow highlighted I think in in the way that this document is put together so that people can truly see this is the the new stuff right or this is what this level provides you that the other level doesn't right sure I I agree completely and I this one of the the historical context of this came from there was a much larger difference and this exercise definitely showed me that there is not perhaps as much a difference as there should be so I'm I'm interested in feedback on how how it is that we can what are those services and how can we differentiate that so this this was a good exercise for me even if we don't end up making huge changes because they're just the delta is not large yeah and it's a good question to put to the TSC right what do we think a graduated project should get that makes it special what in addition to to maybe the things that are being offered should we think outside the box and see about whether or not that could be something that we add to the to the list so I don't know if anybody has any suggestions or has been on other sorts of projects whereby there's a true distinction level for graduate it versus incubate it versus labs or sandbox whatever they might call that project in that project but you know any sort of examples I think would be helpful to to provide I know I had provided one I think from the academy software foundation so but if there's other people who have been in projects or who have seen different ways of looking at this I think that would be appreciated maybe you could mention the paid security of it that happened for projects that hasn't been as I mean that's not as distinct as it has been you know we're doing an audit for Ursa which is not graduated right and cactus and cactus yeah and even then you don't it's not like something that you need to do every quarter only when you change significant things like base is pretty stable we haven't needed an audit but we're trying to get one lined up for when we finish our merge work so that we can get audited make sure we didn't introduce any you know we're doing significant things as far as communication between two nodes did HTTPS so that's not obviously a good security walk through there but also architectural but not every project changes our architecture once a year or once a quarter so I can highlight a couple of things that are new and so maybe that's why it's not clear that there is a distinction here but you know we are starting to do these project workshops for example people may have seen that we're doing one starting with Aries in Indy I think that is something that should be graduated only you know those are going to be you know significant resources to help onboard new users of the project new contributors to the projects I think that should be something that is perhaps limited and I hopefully that would be an incentive those seem to be doing really well the Aries workshop we are having to close it's filled up so quickly I think another thing that could be worth doing although it's not clear yet is maybe relook at the Hyperledger website and maybe give graduate of projects much more prominent exposure there and that could be a difference as well but again that's not in place now so it might not seem obvious that that is something that might be a difference that that could be part of the marketing differences between those levels as well heart yeah I just wanted to agree with David here that I think we should heavily market graduated projects more this will substantially decrease I think it will encourage projects to graduate and it might also substantially decrease confusion in the hyperledger space when traditionally we've just put out in the the greenhouse graphic all the projects even those in incubation it's a lot more to process than if we just have the handful of projects you know say that have graduated we have done a little bit of that if you go well I guess I'm driving right now so if you go to you know hyperledger.org we are putting the the graduated projects I thought we were putting the graduated projects above the oh okay we did on the wiki main page right but this this should have the uh the landscape embedded right here yeah looks like it's broken so yeah but the uh the graduated projects would be at the top there we go so the graduated projects are at the top and incubated and then uh below that the dormant project so we are working on it a little bit but point taken could there also be something there maybe uh graduate projects get a bigger budget for a lot of mentorships so that there's more contributors coming in that way there could be uh I think over the last two mentorship cycles I I believe we accepted everyone that applied I believe that every project was funded because we we weren't limited there weren't enough applications to run a mentorship so we had money for everyone that applied oh okay well that limits the options there then but Peter I like that idea as a the priority are the graduated projects if we do have to select for many which hopefully it will be the case over so sorry I was thinking through uh the doc but then I guess what I just said it concerns me a bit right now right so um I mean when I hear about hyper ledger and the kind of engagement that I hear out there in the public community there is interest among community members to participate to attend and participate so they are looking for any kind of opportunity to get on board and in terms of contribution and I think the point that you just spoke about it concerns me a bit maybe I'll connect offline about it I believe we should have at least received more applications right right it wasn't that we were low on applications it was we were low on programs for people to apply for okay so so we had a budget for I don't know how many let's say 20 mentorships and we only had 17 memberships that were proposed uh by the projects so that that was the limitation all right misinterpreted sorry thanks I don't know yeah I I think you're curious to me that I think one of the challenges we have you know and and maybe this is why you know and by the way I agree this was a very useful exercise to kind of try to you know actually put on paper so to speak the differences which are not that large as it's been pointed out and I think one of the reasons it maybe there isn't that much of a difference is because I think there is a bit of a conflict in trying to help actually the the project that are typically an incubation for instance uh and and trying to put a character as Dano said for the the graduation and and you know project then graduation what I'm trying to say is that you know on the one end it seems fair to say hey graduated project deserve more services on the other end the really is maybe it's the one that are incubation that need the most help right and I don't really know how to deal with this kind of like tension because you know um yeah I think you know what stops most projects from moving out of incubation as we all know is the lack of diversity and contribution and so saying well we're going to kind of push them down on the website and other areas is kind of deserving you know it's it's counterproductive in trying to help them get to the you know a broader community of contributors so I don't know how to deal with that tension you know how do we make it so that graduate projects have an advantage and how do we help steal the incubation projects yeah I'm glad you said that Arno I because I was thinking something similar right my brain went well at what point do we start to discourage incubation right because we were giving all of the the highlight to the the graduate projects right you know because you could take that to an extreme and and really do a disservice to the the people who are trying to build the next new thing right which is what you what you would expect to find in in labs or in incubation um and and the next new thing is is I think just as important as the things that we want to be stable and and graduate it so um I have the same exact thought as you and so I think there is an interesting tension and an interesting balance that we're going to have to bring to all of this yeah all right any other thoughts on this document before we move to the next topic just a quick one uh someone mentioned the converting the document into a chart format and I want to bust on that idea what I envisioned was some product landing page where they have the free tier the pro tier the enterprise tier and then you have these uh listed features that are included and then there's always this uh pattern of how the number of features are growing so you want to be on the enterprise tier which is that's the best so I think that's that's something that a lot of people have seen a lot of times and it's immediately clear that the the best tier the top tier is the carrot and that you should get there yep thanks for that Peter um so right David I hope that's uh been valuable as far as feedback yeah absolutely especially making the more digestible we'll definitely play around with the format and then maybe when that's more clear we can discuss do we have the balance right between how much each tier has of each sounds great all right uh so if we look at the next topic um this is a topic that I sort somewhat mentioned and throughout in last week's meeting but I wanted to put it up for some sort of discussion to see in general what people are thinking um specifically uh because we do have a number of overdue project reports uh I was thinking what could we do about that right um I again maybe this is more stick than it is a carrot um but uh should we be moving projects to a dormant state if we haven't heard from a particular project uh within a given amount of time uh with their project reports so I wanted to open that up for discussion and see if anybody had thoughts on that if it sounded like a good idea a bad idea or had other sorts of thoughts on how we can encourage people uh to to put together their project reports for the TSE right I just want to uh give a little bit of a historical context here um in that uh we did when composer uh transitioned uh it was I think a year or so after they stopped filing updates before there was any official move to to uh transition the project uh and it was I think that was hard on everybody and so I would I would encourage the members of the TSE to uh find a way to to enact this and you know not not make it so punitive but uh acknowledge reality so that people can understand the shape of the thing better yeah I I mean right part of the reason that the project reports were put together was to ensure that the projects were in some sort of healthy state right we were having a hard time as a TSE trying to understand kind of the status of projects and what was happening with those projects and and really this is our this is our insight into each of the projects hopefully we'll get a bit more insight now that we are going to be attending meetings to see how things are actually running but definitely a piece the other piece that I would say is that in looking at the dormant state as we wrote it up um it was supposed to be at the request of the projects um so this would be changing kind of the the thinking around that as well Dano so yeah I remember when we were talking about the dormant state we discussed the possibility of involuntary dormancy but we never we said we'd cross that bridge and we get there and I think we're quickly getting there um with one of the projects on here that's now a month late and I think a year between reports is too long to go to dormants because another thing about dormants is you can revive a project from dormancy it's not like deprecated where you say we're done can't use the names take a fork and edit you know if a project has a legitimate reason why they've done dormant you know or maybe not so good reason then they get their act together they can always say hey we're back we're going to do good you know move us back to incubation storage um so I think you know we should consider what thresholds on project reports is one of the triggers for involuntary and I think if you miss a full quarter I think we should have a vote on it um the question is if they're consistently late you know maybe not but I think that's you know to put a red herring out there to start the discussion at I would suggest that a project that misses a full quarter of a report we should it's not forced but we should have a vote in a discussion on involuntary dormants okay over I have a couple of points first is related to um the government state government state as you said sounds like an informed decision where project team members they come together and then they say to TSE hey this is the period that we are going um let's say quiet for a period and and we'll probably come back um maybe we need revision on to that the definition and and what we are planning under dormant states right so just because a project is in the government we cannot move it to um right so I think my thought process were to introduce a new state but if that's something that we can edit under the government state itself that's something we should look into the second point I wanted to bring out was maybe reports as not submitting reports is not the only reason why we should consider this there could be other reasons that we should look into and I would request more additional time to think through that okay yeah definitely there could be other reasons that we might want to decide that a project should head towards dormant state so uh you know if there's things that people can think about uh this was just uh in my face uh as far as the overdue project report so that that seemed like an obvious sort of thing to to have a discussion around uh right sure uh there is uh one more thing uh there which is um you know github also you know lets us mark stuff as read only or whatever uh archived uh so there could be you know that's they would be really rude to come into a project and just archive all their repos I'm not saying we should do that but that is if you're looking at a project and their repos are uh not active and not archived like if you've got 40 open bugs you know 100 unreviewed prs that could also be a trigger and dano I see what you sent me and I will post that into the chat dano that was to uh individual I thought I was posting to all I posted that in the the chat so one thing we should look at is the definition of dormant um it does say there that the tsc will make the decision as to whether the project was a dormant to or from the dormant state upon request and it doesn't say request of whom I mean I guess what implications to request in the project but you know it's you know that the definition is projects in dormant are ones in which normal functions are suspended or slowed down for a period of time and I think that the the tsc realizing that that's the current state of the project and the current functioning um you know I think I think I think it's within bounds of the definition but I'm willing to be you know discussed on it okay Peter I read that anytime it happens but we should vote on it and we should have context as in if they missed the report or two and now we are considering it then we should also reach out via the normal channels email and chat then just fly out ask them are you dormant and if no one is even there to respond then it would be much easier on my conscience for example to vote saying yes that's a dormant project let's pull the plug but if they respond and say oh the lead maintainer was in an accident and then out of work for months but now we're back so please give us some more time then I would say in the vote I would say well let's give them some more time so I think they should make it part of the process to just gather a little more context from the project and then vote yeah definitely um Peter and I I know uh that uh when we started out this tsc term uh dano had volunteered to once a project went past its due date for the project report reach out to that project to let them know um that they had um you know missed a reporting if you will and so I think you know we could make the assumption and then we can confirm with dano right that that is truly happening and that he has reached out to these projects that are overdue um and maybe hasn't returned or received a response back from them Nathan yeah for this week's but for borough they've done three pings two by email and one by chat group yeah so Nathan and I mean let's acknowledge the reality of this we would reach out to them anyway for a missed report most of the steps we have to do to determine whether they're dormant or not are the same steps we're doing just to try to hunt down the report so it's not like it's a lot of additional work and as a tsc we consider a project going into dormant a bit sad like it's not something we want to have happen and we wouldn't do it to someone else you know deliberately against their will or in any way maliciously what we do want to acknowledge the reality because we realize that being an active project it takes work um and hopefully moving a project that's struggling to even submit a report is a relief um we want to relieve that burden and let them focus on the things that will help their project become active as opposed to being you know in the middle of trying to you know figure out incubation requirements or you know uh cater to the requests of the tsc about status when there's really not much going on so um I think that this seems really reasonable that if you miss a whole quarter of the report and no one can get a hold of you that the tsc would ask hey are you guys dormant and it's not an answer that has a predetermined conclusion and we're not going to try to move a project to dormant that doesn't want to go to dormant we're going to ask them so what are you doing to be active and uh I don't think it's anything more than just trying to acknowledge the reality to reduce the amount of burden on everyone that's that's trying to do a good job with their project all right thanks Nathan heart um yeah and I guess I know that the sort of burrow is on everybody's mind um I guess so I assume dano um has reached out to sylas on this um I'd be curious to hear what uh sylas had to say about this and also sorry I haven't heard back from sylas that's the problem oh okay yeah and I'll say sorry about my quarterly report this was quite the week to to miss the email on it I think one or two weeks is in uh crisis I think three months is really the threshold yeah I heard this definitely wasn't uh wasn't trying to call you out anyway shape or form uh for missing this week uh we seemed to we seem to have had some missed ones uh quite quite a bit up here and it's it's just a more a question of you know these long-term ones um that that are on my mind so all right I don't know if your hand is still up or if you uh want to add to okay great um Nathan I would even say we don't mind a little bit of quarterly report rebellion as long as they're here and actively rebelling um it's just uh we want to acknowledge the reality of if the project's truly dormant and no one can get a hold of someone that's a really bad contributor experience if someone's trying to use the project for someone's trying to fix something mm-hmm for sure Dana rebellion is an indicator of life and that's really what we're looking for doesn't that mean I get to skip the basu quarterly report next week nice dry grace grace I was gonna ask the same thing you know we're not having a meeting next week guys but uh at the same time definitely haven't done for that first week of January so I don't have to call you out all right uh any other comments on this particular topic it sounds like we're we're all fairly much in agreement would it be worthwhile for me to uh go ahead and write up some sort of decision log entry uh for us to take a look at when we come back in the new year sounds good to me okay I will work on that then um all right so we do still have about six minutes left uh would anybody from the task force we have two task force out there I think Grace and Arun would you like to provide an update on kind of where you're at if there's anything that stands out to you that might be useful for the rest of the tsc to know about or I can go up first and probably make it short so we had our first uh congregation of our first meeting early this week and there was enough interest that I received through email but however I could not see that getting translated on to attendance on that call however I'm pushing hard to get more participation from all the projects as much as possible to the task force now apart from the participation there were really good points made out and during the call and thanks to all of you who contributed to those thoughts and there have been a couple of action items noted down uh the main action items are going to be around um how do we measure criticality of a particular vulnerability that gets reported right how do we even measure that if it is a generic bug versus something that needs attention and what's the score on which we should decide on that I mean decide the criticality plus there was an action item on on coming up with questionnaire for deciding for a particular maintainer how do the report wait let me open up these so task force as an item but yeah at a high level meeting minutes has been posted on the task force uh wiki page so if you have any comments on those open items or maybe any of the notes items on that page please feel free to comment and please do join our next call that would be three weeks from now mostly in first week of channel all right thanks I did just put a link out to the hyperledger security task force on the to c chat um so definitely have a look and let Arun know if you're interested or can provide some insight into what your different projects are doing related to security grace any update for us yeah I think most of the group is up to date but um we're currently just saying um data gathering mode for the task force and understanding how um the different communities within communities across hyperledger use different chat channels our next meeting will be the first week of january the idea is to share there the kind of final inputs and then maybe start to put together a proposal kind of here maybe the you know two or three kind of options that we have um the what we're hoping is by the end of january to have kind of a recommendation and be able to implement because obviously you know aligning on the chat channel strategy is important for facility in our community we don't want to draw it out too well okay thanks grace I also put a link to the community chat uh task force out there as well um so I think there's been lots of good discussions in that particular task force so far um yeah with that I think that's our agenda unless there's anything that anybody else would like to add uh merry christmas and a happy new year thanks right yes definitely everybody enjoy the holidays and have a great new year and we will see you at the beginning of 2022 yeah and thank you all once again for all your contributions and support of our community so happy holidays to all and have a great hopefully everybody gets a some rest and enjoyment with their family and friends so happy holidays thank you bye thank you everyone