 Now two years later tell us about the pressing of the charges because I Recall you mentioning you actually had relatives here in your home On the day that this came up Had already told you we had no indication of timescales at all. So just rolled on and on The apartment would ring them up Reasonably regular intervals when you're gonna either do something or drop it We could never get an answer out of them Again, apparently one of their techniques. It's not to let you know anything because it ups the ante and you know the more nervous people feel the more they're likely to Drop themselves in it so Finally got this phone call Not from the police from my solicitor Saying they're coming to Hatfield police station Saturday morning and you are invited to attend Invited yes, and I said to him I said what happens if I don't feel like they're in fight He said in that case they'll come to the house arrest you and take you anyway So it's one of these invites that you can't refuse And at the time we had some relatives of staying with us They were down for three or four days And They knew nothing about any of this. I mean they didn't officially know that we're a gay couple Because as I said the private person he doesn't tell his relatives everything They're separated by distance as much as anything. So there's almost not the need to and and So we're trying to look all happy and jolly with his Friends here relatives here. Well at the same time. I'm having to make an excuse as to why I need to disappear off to the Nearby town You know I'll be back in an hour or two possibly I'm not quite sure Maybe we'll excuse I made probably something about a friend So disappear from here You go to the police station They read you the charge sheet Take your fingerprints. They do photographs front on and All the neck and you see side on and All that and you know that made me feel terrible because I've always been what I consider very law-abiding citizen I'd always wanted to serve on a jury and things like that. I think a great sense of public responsibility and so on So to actually be in the criminal process now being a criminal and with each charge They read out they'd say we've got any comment. So I make a comment So the whole process took about an hour There was still no idea as to exactly when anything Next would happen because then it's down to the crown prosecution service Whether they bring charges So although they've Charged you with something it still has to then be submitted to the CPS to see if they think there's enough evidence there For you to go to court whether the police have a reasonable chance of winning or not because obviously Excuse me if if they don't stand any chance of winning with the waste of public money to bring the case Yeah So that was that and then I came back here And I had to be all happy and jolly again It was a strain should we say and of course I just wanted to know what happened and I couldn't tell him Until they'd left which was two days later, which we did try the odd bit quite chat Upstairs, it's not the same as a proper open discussion. Yes, so Yeah, it was fraught and I was really pissed off the fact that I've been waiting two years actually bugging up something that we were doing You know, perhaps I was selfish on my part because they did work hard So it was horrible that was the Saturday On the Tuesday I went into work on Monday, nothing was said on the Tuesday. I Was called up to an office upstairs And the chap said Have you read today's papers? No Don't get the papers didn't bother with the papers partly for the aforesaid reasons about the press and so Not So I said no, I'm not sitting and he said well Says here in one of the papers Famous scientists arrested well for a start. There was no fame But my name was in the paper and it was in virtually all of the Tabloids and in the broadsheets all of us have been charged apparently we all got charged Pretty much over the same weekend day or two The next instruction was to go home So I Sent home basically Now I've been there Eight ten years or something Works as I told you before worked myself into a good position was good at me job And then it just sort of stopped Instantly and then to make matters even more galling The press as soon as they found out where I worked Because you'll see in all the newspaper cutting the aerospace scientist and this and the other They were asked things like Did I have access to any official documents and so on and they said no Well, that was a bare-faced lie because not only like every other employee I'd sign the official secrets act when I went there Because it was missile systems We didn't sign that at the aircraft company because there's nothing, you know, you know of national security there But I signed it out there. So that was a lie for a start, but the more importantly Yes, I had access to secret documents because I had my own security clearance by virtue of me position And I had a folder that I could request and book documents in and out to the people that work for me That's what I think they would have gone to the workplace earlier so they denied that and To make that as also was having been there that time. There wasn't a single word of thanks from the company officially at all just nothing, you know, not a well, we're sorry You know, they were just covering their asses basically as big companies tend to do in these circumstances So they let you go. Oh, it's them. Just let me go. They heave me out the door I managed to negotiate a sort of Sort of settlement of some sort for I mean theory. I should have had two months for paid notice plus Some compensation of some sort so I managed to negotiate something but a few years later, I tried to get references Personnel department Incredible, you know, so I've been obliterated from their existence. I suppose Anyway, so that was the that was the job gone So there's a matter of just sitting around at home Waiting to find out when there was going to be a trial And what would go on? Oh we had obviously At that time we then contacted solicitors and people like that. I think I was that's not that's a lie I'm lying honestly jokes. We've got a solicitor at the time We were raided just after because they said we suggest you get a solicitor. Who is your solicitor? They said to me that's why I beg is that I said I've no idea. We don't need solicitors We never use solicitors, you know, we have no need for it's not as though We're habitual criminals who have a solicitor coming to tea. Yeah, we haven't got a solicitor So I looked in the gay press and found people They dealt with sort of a sex life side of Prosecutions and used one of them That's how I found the solicitor. Well, and then once the charges were brought, of course Then it was into barristers and People like that. I don't know if you Listeners and viewers know the Like your listeners and viewers association really I'd like to call it Okay, whether they know the system over here. I'm not sure what it is where you are, but Solicitors can ask you all the questions and support your case, but they're not allowed to talk in court Oh, I see high enough up. You have to be a barrister, which is like a couple of steps up Chapter I learned it judges. Oh, that's them what we're the fetish gear, you know, the long curly wings So that's where we were The day the charges were brought With what were you charged at that time? Actually took a couple of months for the charges to arrive in print. I mean this was What year we've got to buy now. We've got to 89. I think yes about 89 They took a while for them to arrive I've actually got them the charges listed here I mean I can read them out if I read them. I'd need to just put in a B and C for people's names Sure, I said we see how it goes. Yeah, I think we can do that There's some interesting little odds and ends about someone. I won't Bother with every word But one on diverse days between the first day of January 78 and 17th November 87 conspired together with ABCD And others to assault each other and other persons who could be induced To join them thereby occasioning each other And the aforesaid other persons actual bodily harm So the important word there is conspire Because conspiracy As I think we may have covered has to be heard in a crown court You can't hear a conspiracy charge, you know magistrates court. It has to go into a crown court Which is okay, you know like the top tier. Yeah, so that was one Child on another one on the day before 17th November Assaulted one of the other defendants thereby occasioning him actual bodily harm as shown on videotape number so so Contrary to section 47 of offenses against the person act Okay, and my reply was I don't see how you can assault somebody with their consent Because the consent while not in writing or verbal was thereby the fact that they That we did all these things and that nobody said don't do it right, you know, and As I'm sure you're well aware within the gay SM world if you're if you're concerned about that aspect You have safe words and ways of stopping things. Yes Right, and that was another one in another one was Again, they use slightly different words here Before 17th November has an address in Hampstead counseled and procured aided and abetted One of the defendants to assault one of the others. That was the one with the spiral staircase And then another one same dates This was the one that turned out to be from my point of view what they consider the most Serious, this is the one they ended up with a cutting Which sounds terrible, especially if you listen to mr. Haynes who I'll come on to later. Okay, again on the same days Aided and abetted one defendants to unlawfully wound someone else with intent to do grievous bodily harm as shown on My now notorious videotape the one that apparently started this whole thing off Contrary to section 18 My reply to all of these was the same I don't see how you could have assaulted someone if they consented. Yeah to it and What's this one there's another one here This is Corporal punishment type one As I said, I knew some people went up towards Dropsheer way where some of them were I never went once and This it was an assault Occasion to an assault upon a man known as John Causing the actual bodily harm. Well, that was John who wore a kilt Lean over the balcony of this tower Lifted his kill me all whacked it one as well as we could with belts and as he's learned Judge said we could see what state Jaguar was That means I had a stiffy And as you know that Pretty much the end of the world. Yeah for straight people to have gay people with erections because they're whacking someone But I'd have had been just the same if I hadn't been whacking me for I was just watching It was it was one of a few jobs almost since I was back lemon, so you can't control them I mean they ask any bloke, you know, there are times when they're totally out control these things Right, that was that so that was one in the tower And I said I wasn't aware of that particular charge anyway, and then there's another one that I Unlawfully unlawfully and maliciously wounded Colin Lasky Yes, he caught chaps Here So again the final reply I don't see I can be maliciously wounding someone when I have their consent and they Have these things done to them before and by others also with their consent in other words They've done this sort of all of us have done these sort of things before yes So that was the main charges One of the local newspapers I said there were loaded charges and that's when as soon as the charges are in the public domain That's when the aggravation from press and you know, so on started. Yeah We did have a couple of reporters turn up from the nationals But essentially we told them to go away all words to their effect. Yeah, did they keep hounding you? No I think they Got the idea that they wouldn't begin anywhere quite quickly. So what's the point? the only place we got really a What I call more aggro than is warranted Is by press photographers, I mean photographers a breed of plough bloody awful And it was by press photographers on route from like the tube stations to the to the court Okay, and They were all around and what made that ironic as well. We were In court charged with lots of woundings and assaults one of the pork buggers Was knocked over by a pressman and broke his wrist. Oh my gosh And as We pointed out the photographer wasn't charged with an assault that black was more wounded than anything We'd ever done in any of our stuff Incredible, so that was the situation there. I might be smiling a bit, but actually it was a lot Yeah, I had people unannounced Turn up who wanted some SM from me. Oh, you know Couple of people wrote letters I do this and that and I was sort of nearly tempted to reply but as fun on these straight friends that he said Well, and you would be an idiot if you reply to these because yeah, first you don't know who they are That's right And second if they did get out to the public domain at this time, especially yeah, you know, you've got no case So I deferred to his And I just get all these people arms and all I did with the ones at the door, I said just go Look in the local look in gay papers and look at the head. No, she'll find somebody So nobody was entertained here in the house at all Just would be ridiculous. Not only that would just absolutely wouldn't have been in the mental state Yeah, that's true. I mean, I still am and not really I couldn't run an SM relationship now Yeah No, I don't have the oomph to do it These days all the inclination and I still have the thought of it back in the mind that this could all go pear shaped again So it pretty much wrecked me That's siding me life completely And it takes a lot when you are the person that that is does what they're saying is you are a bad person You are not of good character. Yeah, which is all some means would you get convicted which upset me? And that no us the system don't like you being you you have to be what we want you to be That's what happened just after the charging