 Welcome, everybody, back here on Segal Talks at the Monteney Segal Theater Center, the Greater Center CUNY in Manhattan in New York City at the City University. And it's another day on planet Earth, another day with the COVID virus, another day where the world is wondering what will be happening, what is happening. We don't have all the full information. All we know that yesterday, Wednesday, there were 39,000 new infections in the United States, the highest ever recorded since the pandemic started. The European Union are thinking for next week, Wednesday, to loosen travel restrictions and it looks like the United States will not be able to send its citizens to Europe. Americans will be buried most probably, it's a shocking, shocking development. It's showing Brazil and Russia very early on, I think Trump overnight decided without talking to anybody that Europeans shouldn't come in when America had very little, 1,000 infections. And I think 50 people who died from it and the Europeans were very unhappy about this. Now, Europe seems to have done very, very well, meanwhile in America, over two million infections, the hotspot of the world, disastrous handling of the situation, a president that refuses to wear a mask, tells people they should inject this infection, flees in a bunker, when there seems to be a problem, has police clear with tear gas peaceful protesters to make a photo of with a Bible. And he threatened and did use military to use military against the American people. It's unprecedented, it's shocking, using military tactics from Iraq war with helicopters flying over protesters in the outrage we have all share about the death of George Floyd. Of course, intensified everything that's so wrong in this country but needs to be changed and we all hope that theater is a part of it, artists have been on the right side of the struggle, the complex struggle for freedom and liberties have been the right side of history and they always are able to experience the present, the moment better and often anticipate the future as once here say that's what artists do and sometimes when traditional arts, great arts like theater come together with new technology, innovation happens. This has been the history of the arts when film came up, when we followed the dancer invented new lighting systems, horror dancers, she held 45 patterns in 1890 and now we have Zoom, we have Twitter, we have Instagram, Tech Talk and digital revolution that goes so much faster than the revolution on better breaks time and all of a sudden airplanes, cars, radios, film cameras, projections came up and completely changed how we experienced the world and perhaps what we experience and now the velocity of it is much deeper but we are so close we can see it and this virus now exposes everything, the structures like an x-ray, we see what's wrong as Shetner said, it's a Fukushima type disaster but the roof is open, we look on it with horror and we now know we have to change something, we have to change ourselves, we need to authentically create a change if we want to see the change but we also all have to work to get out and do and take actions. We have been talking now for 13 weeks with theater artists from around the world, we are the only US and most probably also a new institution that does programming every day and new programming as a theater institution related to the coronavirus, talking to artists, we most probably the only profession theater and performance that now has an overview for three months about what's happening globally, how this virus affects our lives, it's documenting and archiving the present and to normally others choose what's been archived or not. We said now we are important, we make a great contribution and we talk to so many people about South Africa and Hong Kong and Tunisia, Cuba, how theater artists have been always part of change and highlighted in a symbolic way and imaginative way but also in a real way. This week we focus a little bit on a part of the world that often is not talked about, not talked about enough. It is the Caribbean, we have Spence speaking Caribbean that we did a festival last year at the Siegel Center with the help of the French Cultural Services and the great Stephanie Berra who put it together, we are also publishing a book that Daniele was on with us from Martinique, Daniele Francesco was with us on Tuesday, a fantastic look into her world and what she is thinking and Paul was the one who directed her work, Paul Price was so generous, of course I come and help you guys out and direct her play the She Devil, next week we will have actually two Jamaican theater artists from the Caribbean English speaking and Paul was the one who came and talked a lot also about his work, about how it is to be someone from Trinidad, Tobago, to be living in Brooklyn, to be an actor, a filmmaker, he teaches acting actually as a colleague from me in Brooklyn College we are at City University and also at HB Studio, he has this MFA in acting from Yale drama and he's a successful filmmaker who developed at Sundance Lab his film The Deliverer which won awards and also he was at Marvel's Jessica Jones on Netflix, well this is quite something and so we're gonna hear a bit now from Paul, Paul, thank you for joining us, thank you for having me, where are you at the moment and how is life with Corona for you? Well I'm holed up in my apartment in Brooklyn in Park Slope and I've been here for you know like everybody else in New York for like up to three months, I mean now we're only just starting to emerge out of our our hobbles and making going out into the streets and engaging with the world again but it's been quite a few months in 2020 and it's certainly for me it's been a time of deep reflection you know I think even before the assassination of George Floyd and Black Lives Matter before that happened just that incubation period of being in holed up in our in our in our apartments was really I think it was a moment to reflect and to kind of reassess exactly certainly for me like what am I doing, what am I saying, what is it, what's my philosophy on the work and where do I want my work to go you know I think as as and then compounded with the this next pandemic so to speak we're sort of in a the double pandemic as it's been called now I think the confluence of those two things certainly for me has really forced me to really re-examine everything that I thought I knew and exactly what is it my work really stands for I think sometimes when you get in when you're in this business the entertainment business you can get into certain tracks right and New York has this particular energy that you just are driven by the energy of the city and the demands of so many people as as an actor and director and you know you're trying to get to the next level and then advance your career but then the reason why for what you do often or can get lost in the mix and I think what the the coronavirus has done and of course what the protest the Black Lives Matter protest has ignited is the sense of realignment and interrogation as to what are we really doing and what do we really want to say without words certainly as theater artists as filmmakers and I think for me that has really caused me for you know to really reflect and to rethink everything that I thought I knew when you know you're kind of going through your education your work and then then you start to question even your own prejudices your own biases your own inclinations and and and then now it's questioning why why do I feel this way why do I why am I doing this as opposed to that and for me that's kind of been what these last few months have have done and I think I was listening to John Jonathan Macquarie and one of your other seagull talks and he said a really really fascinating thing about the breath the breath and I totally agree with that it's it's really what is the spiritual alignment you know spiritually what are you contributing to the world that's really moving moving the needle in in the necessary direction I think that's going to impact positively everybody else rather than just kind of going with the flow so that's kind of where my head is at and where where I've been thinking about you know yeah and I mean as we talked a little bit earlier it's it's this we're we're in this moment where I'm part of this national alliance for acting teachers and this it's this amazing forum of some of the the leaders of in the profession the theater profession and we've been having these these talks in these salons discussing um the curriculum of what are we teaching as as as teachers as acting teachers to the incoming class classes and and I think the students are demanding um from us as as as um as professors um more more of of of their teachers and of their faculty and I think it's incumbent on us to to really question again our curriculum our sources and challenging us certainly some of the the older teachers and the older heads right of of um what do we teach and how do we teach those things and I and that that has that has been a really interesting conversation to be a part of because it's really it's it's triggering right it's triggering us too because we teach I think teachers teach from what they what they've been taught and and how they've been taught and they and it's and it's passed down by teaching in many ways it's a it's a craft it's a it's a you know a craft that's passed down um in many ways so it's it's it's it's it's scary for I think um a lot of us in the profession um certainly the older teachers I think older white teachers more specifically in terms of of um re-investigating and approaching work and bringing work into this space that is non-traditional right and being okay with not knowing and I think that's the thing and I think this period is calling on on us to be co-creators in in the in the in the teaching space with our students and not coming from a the hierarchical point of view of being the authority on on the on the work and and being able to to co-create with our students um and and yeah and apply that the same tenets of any sort of rigorous study right even if it's it's just going into a culture into a a writer we're not familiar with because and I think sometimes the associates just the the assumption is because I'm black I'm a black man I know everything there is about blackness but I don't know anything about 1930 Memphis you know in Memphis the same way you wouldn't know do you know or or even or even in Trinidad in the 1900s like I don't know um but so I think if we could acknowledge that and recognize that and not make those assumptions we could enter that that space that world and once we enter that world with curiosity with interest and with the same respect and and do the work with students to investigate that I think it's an enriching experience for for us all so I'm really excited and really really really jazzed about um what is happening and the conversations that are happening um in in the various fields that I I kind of intersect whether it's on the on the on the teaching side or as a filmmaker or as an actor writer it's really um really illuminating do you feel something will change is it a real moment of change I think so I think I think it's encompass incumbent on us I think the pressure is is it's different it's real this time I think I mean it's always been real um I think um I think the sustainability of it is incumbent on all of us I think it's an it's incumbent on all of us and we've seen within the last few years the needle um it's changed right the kinds of conversations in the political landscape that that we didn't dare to have um a few years ago are common our standard practice now whether it's medicare for all um you know the question of reparations is back in the conversation and these are things that would be unheard of to even bring up so I think there is a movement that's happening and it seems to be you know time has these cyclical these these blocks that seem to be 10 15 year spans but it feels like now we're having these seismic changes in our we're having a growth for it so to speak that every five years that there seems to be something radical like the you know it just makes me think of the the election of Barack Obama in 2008 seems like a whole other time that seems like a hundred years ago compared to the conversation where we are now yeah we're hearing the new york sirens right oh yeah yeah you don't know is it a police is it an ambulance someone dying you know someone getting beaten up we don't know right it's it's it's right think frank i mean it's it's that's i mean new york you've always had these sounds of of you know these these traditional stuff but now it's helicopters overhead sirens whether it's the police or the ambulance it's it's really like are we living in like where are we living like this is this is supposed to be america the land of the of democracy and freedom but but i think all of that is being revealed for what it has always been yeah yeah it's always been like this but we didn't want to see or we weren't able a specializing of people like me and others of the white population you know we are in the minority anyway more more people with diverse backgrounds than than ours you know live in new york but it hasn't been reflected on stage it's been reflected in leadership it hasn't been inflicted but how did you as a person how did you do were you were three months you were at home you lived with friends or emily how did you as a human how did you how was that for you what happened you know i was fortunate enough to be at at at um at home and and um it was um uh an interesting period i mean for me what what i did was i'm working on my on my my screenplay so this is a project that um is is we're we're shooting this in trinidad and we're supposed to shoot this year um in in may and obviously once the the pandemic hits that got immediately postponed to the next year so for me initially i just used that time creatively to go into rewrites and to really delve and you could do it right away you see i can write now or yeah i mean i for me i was i i was able to because initially i i thought okay this would not i'm just thinking back to like early um early march just before this was happening say okay i'm going to do my rewrite not anticipating the sort of running death toll that that um we're experiencing in the middle of so as i was going through it um i thought you know what i'm gonna i'm gonna use this time this creative time because you're when you're in production for a film there's never enough time you're always there's always um something to do so i think okay i'll lose this time to to rework my script work with my team to reschedule for for um for next year but as things started to unfold and the news started to to roll out um i i started to become not so much fearful for me but i started to really think about the world in which we're in because i am i am fortunate enough i have i have a great apartment i live in a great area i'm safe i could get amazon to deliver my food but then i started looking at the news and looking at the lines of people waiting to get food people losing their jobs um and then the disproportionate amount of of um of of black and brown people dying from this disease needlessly attack do you know so that during that time it really that was a moment to really reflect on that um and you know i i i mean i would classify myself as progressive so those are some of the those issues that have always been something that i've always been mindful of and um feel passionately about but then when you see it unfold in america on on television the way it did it really it really struck a chord do you know and i and i think as as the as those three months um forged on i started to get really um really mindful of my own privilege do you know my own my own access um and it's funny because you know you you you you are in a space that um you are dealing with with discrimination on so many different levels but then i think it's also important to acknowledge where you know you do have you do have access you know and then that that makes me think a lot of my some of my colleagues and some of the artists back in trinidad that may not have some of the access and the things that that um that i may may may have and that that also gave me the thought of okay well how am i bridging that gap how am i connecting um colleagues from the space where i'm from um to to to access some of the things that are that are happening here so i mean it was really this this mix of considering what is actually unfolding um in the united states in here what's what's my response to that and then what's my how do i how do i take action and response to that i think my first instinct was what is just getting realigned just spiritually um mentally questioning and rereading and um thinking about what is the kind of work that i want to do um and which for me has been just recentering the caribbean narrative and in in in the work that i'm inspired to tell um and and then how do i now create the bridges and create the the linkages with my community you know which i've been doing before but i think that that i think has has just reemerged as a as a prior priority for me and something that i'm interested in doing more and more so and i and i and i thank you for for that for the for the theater experience for the the series of shorts last year with the the french caribbean theater which is such a rare thing in the city um and i think speaks again to this this this moment where what gets space what gets um uplifted what gets centered in in the conversation and um and um and it was really really inspiring for me to be a part of something like that but really centered a place that i'm from um and to engage in the in the conversation with with uh with the new york public so and it was incredible to learn even for us we were not aware it was the first time ever in yeah we once to say the history of theater that caribbean plays represented in some kind of a festival it's fascinating right it's shocking it's it's unthinkable it's i think it's a and to think that i'm that the in that new york city has probably one of the largest um west indian populations outside of the caribbean yeah is in new york so or paris you know such a big yeah big city versus theater is so prominent and significant and plays such a role um so tell us a little bit how did you come to make cedar where did you grow up and uh how was the experience yeah yeah well i i was born and raised in trinidad and tobago and um my parents my mother is from martinique from martin's okay yes from martinique and and my dad um was from jamaica he passed away when i was really young and sorry to know that's the story finds a while ago um and my sister is from barbetas so i'm really this pan caribbean uh a person i like to think of myself as um and i i you know growing up in trinidad i wasn't so much involved in the performing arts so much um i was very much into sports things to swim a lot and but i came to new york um and i discovered a theater at hb studio i initially came here i was in fashion i was doing some modeling and stuff in paris in new york and while in new york i came across uh this acting studio which i i adored and i knew that was where my life was going to go um just because it was the first time i had discovered a medium that allowed me to express something that i wanted to say and before that i was very and i'm still very close to um there's an artist in trinidad called peter minchell he's a carnival artist um uh and also what does it mean carnival artists carnival it's carnival is the the main is like the street parade and street parade in trinidad the carnival so it's it's a it's basically opera in the streets so it's it's designed it's these massive costumes music theater and it's it's all thousands and thousands of people that that parade through the streets like in brazil or in venice and that sort of thing happens around the same time in trinidad is one of them one of the largest carnivals in the world so peter minchell is one of the foremost carnival artists in trinidad and he's been a mentor of mine for for many years before becoming an an actor or a filmmaker on any of any of those so once i came to to new york and i discovered hb i knew new york was the place that i needed to be to pursue theater and to and to learn the craft and i moved here and and and studied at hb and and then started working in in in the in the theater here and then went to yale for my graduate training and in theater which was an incredible experience in terms of the faculty and the student body that it's a it's a place where you're you're constantly creating creating work and once graduating from from yale i i started a theater company that that produced um caribbean theater in trinidad so we would go to trinidad and would bring um theater practitioners theaters directors and designers to trinidad to work with designers and actors and stuff in in in trinidad to create these classical to rein reinvestigate these classical caribbean plays so so um we would do that um over a number or a couple of years we did that um and then we'd have this theater education where we would take um kids and they would be part of the theater a theater training program so they'll get to know a little bit of on the on the on the inside of how theater works and then they'll be part of our crews it was a really fantastic program and then we would take these plays from the center and take them to rural parts of the country to places that ordinarily wouldn't have access to come to port of spain to see a performance so we would we would essentially tour the piece to rural trinidad um so that was fascinating and then um i came after after graduate school being based in new york really doing the new york scene uh hb asked me to to teach a course at uh at hb which was um teaching international um english english for international students basically um and um that was a fantastic experience because i was an international student and it it was about teaching these international actors how do they bring themselves to the work because i think that could be something that gets lost as an international person when you come to the us and i speak to everything that we're we're we're experiencing now there's a sense and you can feel the sense that what you bring isn't enough that i need to lose my accent i need to have an american accent i need to become like something else other than myself and who i bring is not of value um so a lot of and i felt a great affinity to that to the international students and still do at hb because i related to that experience you know and um and a lot of that class was about no actually what what you bring to the table is is the very thing that makes you different and unique although it may not appear that way in the interim because that's not what's being reflected back at you um but in my experience it is the very caribbean culture and caribbean myths and identity that i've explored that has um brought me some of the most joy and met some of the most interesting and and um creative partnerships and people in my career so yeah so uh after that i you know i i started up i recently started a production company film production company that's that's producing um films um and television i'm currently in a lab at big vision empty wallet that's about um uh development lab film lab for filmmakers so my my my career has been you know a little bit of everything from acting producing filmmaking um and teaching as well so it's it's amazing um how was the experience for you as a black actor or black filmmaker in new york we heard i don't know if you saw that sorry about that yeah no that's good that's new york that's how it is so people get a slice of it it is the center of the corona virus on planet earth here in brooklyn and and anyway so now the question is um i sort of you saw the video from uh griffin mathews where he says in my experience at art with diam paulus was so horrible and then at second stage and of course it's also about the institutions and about everybody he worked with yeah how do you feel how how does it feel for you in new york yeah yeah i mean that's a really that's that's a loaded question you know it's um you know one of the things i was i was um talking with someone recently about is you know as an artist of color um you develop such an an innate skill to code switch to adapt to the room um in order to um fit in in order to um uh to work you know um and for me what what i've had to um reckon with with myself and one of the things that i had to to really question is i think for me unbeknownst to myself i think or or unbeknownst to my to my own not consciously was that how much i was really adapting who i was to accommodate um uh an environment that may not have been or may not have felt welcoming to who i was as a as a black artist um whether that was changing my accent or being able to manage the fris the fragility of a white director or or or institution um and taking the path of least resistance do you know in order to to get a job in order to to pass in order to and it's something that i didn't really um didn't grasp the full extent of it but i think now within in and within the last few months just being holed up and really reevaluating what's what's happening i've had to really be honest about that and be honest about um what my own prejudices were in terms of what's good theater and what's not do you know and i and i think um i have had to really um take an honest look at that you know and i think i think that is the question for all of us do you know i think um you know the question is you know to really hold ourselves accountable to hold these theaters and and these and these institutions accountable and also hold ourselves accountable um and for me um i have had a really interesting path in that you know i've always felt that there's something that wasn't quite um i remember i had this these rep these reps that i was i was telling them about a project that i was working on that that's that's um uh based in the caribbean and and they just didn't want to they didn't want to hear about it and they actually was like making jokes about it or or or undermining it in very subtle ways and at the time i didn't necessarily um ascribe it to a race thing per se but i think it's just this undercurrent or or underlying uh sentiment of what is of value and what isn't you know and i think that is something inherent in in in um in all of us that comes out in in subtle ways right and i think it's the what what we're dealing with is is uh there's a there's a discrimination and a marginalization that that is overt and there's like and very clear like george floyd and and there's so much of it that's that's um that's very subtle or or or um um not as overt and sometimes those things for me have has been very difficult to parse and very difficult to pinpoint um um but but now there's a clarity in in in um in looking at that and that that's i think emboldened me and has radically changed the way i teach and radically changed the way in which i claim space radically changed the way in which i declare and own who i am and what i'm here to do um that i'm i think i'm not sure it would have happened as quickly as it did without coronavirus and um black lives matter so for me it's really shaken me and had to really think back really um really really um soberly into my my past um experiences and how much i was um deflecting or ignoring not calling it for what it is because i may not have had at that time the clarity to call it for what it was either um and in a way it's a little heartbreaking to think back it's like oh was that oh is that what that was but it you know i think it is i remember there was um um uh a friend of mine she was doing a play um and she was um uh are supposed to be a princess we were doing a greek play we were doing a figenaya and she was doing um she was playing a figenaya and she's a black um actor brilliant brilliant actor and the coach who was working with her um was telling her you know i i i don't think you're you're you're capturing a princess enough i don't think you're really you don't have that princess energy and she's like i don't know what that means i'm trying to be a princess i don't know i'm not i'm not a princess you know as opposed to her owning and inhabiting that character um in the princess and the way that she brings and interprets that role to be and in her way and i think there's so much of that sort of bias and that sort of interpretation of aesthetic and what um someone's idea of what does a certain role or a certain story mean or should mean or how it should look how it should behave how it should sound um that's colored by our own history our experiences our our knowledge um that um and at and at that time you're you you know you may not be savvy enough to call it for what it is but i think now it's so in the open and i think um the guy who occupies the white house helps us kind of have that enemy that target because he's he's um you know he's just throwing fuel on the fire we're able to to really have that focal point that allows us to really see you know um i remember when when trump was elected you know the world stopped you know um but i also believe you know there there are no accidents in the world there there's no accidents in the universe and i think there's something about the confluence of all of this with him being there is really lasering in very very clearly the issues that we need to tackle you know and and i think it's it's a consistent thing right i think it's a consistent effort of reeducation unlearning um open-mindedness um love um and the ability and the willingness to be vulnerable you know and to trust that if we don't know it's okay not to know it's okay it's okay to ask it's okay to to be real like in my class i've just started opening up and just looking at it just let's just tackle these issues about about anti-blackness and and and racism and white prejudice not be afraid to just stay it and put it in the room and say yes i am i have anti-black thoughts and i'm black i have i have white fragility because i'm white like just let's just get real let's just get honest with each other and and and not um and i think if we start there and really and get uncomfortable as opposed to not wanting to offend because well that person is gonna that person's gonna give me a job so i don't want to offend them it's like you're ready you're already born in a black you're already been black bald so you know there is um um Byron Allen who's this black um executive um uh entertainment mogul you know entertainment studios he's like you know black people are afraid of not offending because they don't want to get black bald he's like you were born black bald you didn't just you didn't get the memo you know so this this fear of being marginalized or fear you're not going to get um a job if you speak out that's already happened that you're not jeopardizing something that that was never yours to begin with so i think there is no fear and i think there's there should not be any fear for those who want to see equality justice to speak out to take action to and there've been and there are many um um um um practitioners and artists who've been doing that way before Black Lives Matter right and then before this so it's not like this is just happening it's been happening um National Black Theater of Harlem for instance um who's been at the forefront of this for a long time and and so many others so um yeah i think it's just an unveiling of what was what was there for for a long time yeah you said um you had to deal with the fragility of white directors or fragility of white institutions the burden was on you even to negotiate so tell us if you could tell a bit about that that feeling you have that yeah i mean yeah i mean it's it's i think it's something that you're your thoughts in many ways i mean i come from the Caribbean a post-colonial um space that's still reeling and dealing with with its own identity issues right it's a predominantly Black space East Indian and very diverse East Indian African Syrian you know Lebanese Chinese a lot of different cultures particularly in Trinidad but in the wider Caribbean but you know we are a space that's dealing with the effects of of post-colonialism and post-colonialism and that's yeah and yeah and and and that still lives in the DNA of i think that that our community and i think that has um that's passed on do you know and it's passed on in many ways that is you know there's colorism in the community there's anti-Blackness in the community there's there's this sense that um you know if you go as we call it if you're going foreign if you're going to England or you come to the United States that these these are the places of milk and honey and that and that the the the stuff that comes from the ground from where you're from isn't enough cannot hold the candle to the American theater or Shakespeare or i mean i held those views in in in many ways you know i think it's something that's that's kind of in your psyche something that you're you're you're taught and things that are said among your friends family growing up in in that space so i think the the the journey for Black people Black people in the diaspora is really a question of um i think in part is knowing the history and knowing history told by those from your community right not just a general history lesson from a history book but told from the from the perspective of someone um from your from your community um that's telling the full story or or or another version of the story rather you know um and i think um there isn't a lot of that i mean i i think for me one of the things that i had to also reckon with is understanding the fullness of my experience from the Caribbean you know and and the breadth of of that of that um which i feel like i'm pretty well read you know but then i feel like there's so much more that that i i i haven't um learned and i'm continuing to learn and i'm continuing to discover um um and i and i and i and i and i feel like um when you're um reconciling with that and then you bring those those insecurities into a space in which you are now the minority then that that plays out itself in very in very subtle in subtle and maybe not so subtle ways i think um um and i think it's it's and i think it's it's natural it's normal right in the same way like i had a friend he's a good friend of mine yan he's a german guy and he's he was uh he would come to Trinidad and we met in Trinidad and he would tell me like yeah paul i would go to uh he's in business i would go to a um a conference room um and have a meeting and if he stands up and he says something they would listen to him over the other local businessman because he's a white man from europe coming into the space so there is this this um this this this legacy of postcolonialism and and and this sense of of white supremacy and and and that exists even within um these spaces do you know and i think what's happening now is this this this unveiling this awareness um of artists of color of white artists that are acknowledging that that are recognizing that and calling it out for what it is and and and now we're we're in in that process of dismantling that and interrogating that and i i i and i feel it's there's no um i don't think there's any there's any um um value in like the the the hate around that it's just it is what it is right it's it just is so if we just acknowledge it for what it is because it's it's it's and we could address it in a real way and in an honest way and then really make the steps to dismantle that and see how can we truly find equity in in every space and and find value in that um and if we if we're if we're moving towards that i think that's that's great and the theater and the arts are always at the forefront of of doing that for the most part and i think a lot of that dismantling is there's just a lot of fear and ignorance do you know and i think in terms of white um some of my white colleagues um you know i think sometimes it's it's just not just never having to just have to deal with that do you know just just not literally not knowing that that happens to people like literally not knowing and i had a a a a a conversation with a friend of mine and we're talking about some of this police brutality thing and and then an experience that a black colleague of ours posted on facebook and he was and he was started saying well i don't think that's necessarily what that means i was like well that's not your experience of that and you can't speak to someone's experience of a situation that's their experience and i think part of the process for us for all of us is to listen and to hear the experiences of others and just acknowledge that because i think sometimes you get into a no that's not a race thing or that's not what that was but that's what they interpreted and that's how they felt and i think the more we're able to hear and to acknowledge what the experiences people are bringing into a room then we have a place of of of conversation and departure um so for me it's it's been this this um um this this this return in many ways to my own cultural roots this return to this um and centering that and centering that that um that that that interrogation that interest that that curiosity in in in in centering the the caribbean experience in the narratives in which i want to tell that i think pre maybe uh some some some years ago it may not have been that that is something well i i do caribbean theater but i need to get on this hollywood train i need to do this this tv series thing that whatever whatever which is great of course but at the same time it's yes but this also needs centering this also needs voice this also needs a steward and and and um and that has that has value that's a service to a to a wider humanity and and who else is going to do it so i think it's been a lot of that and i think as as as artists of color i feel like that's always i don't know for me that's been something of always navigating how much of myself can i bring is there spaces is there a market for caribbean or caribbean movie do you know and i and i think what i have learned the more you step into that and you offer that with with authenticity with love with with with uh with rigor um the good stuff always rises right the good stuff always rises to the top and i think um i i i believe in that and um and want to continue in that in that path so in a way yeah i i hear you it's hard even i for me and i'll think i'm honest i may i do not know how it felt feels for you you know to be in the room i do not know and your colleagues don't know also your students or white students do not know and how what does one how does one deal with that you know when communicate experiences and you can it's like you know you have children but you have you've been a child you uh have seen movies about kids you read books about kids your friends have good when you have a child it's different if you realize it it's so you know as someone said you can also have a tattoo on your face it's the same commitment something so radically different from everything you know in the question is how do we bridge that yeah have you ever been asked to uh do like the Shakespeare was the British accent uh and in acting and how how does that make you feel yeah i mean i i think i've always wrestled with that because you see again it's all about representation it's all about centering and positioning you know when you when you see you know these great actors and they're you know they're all white and they're all speaking a certain way you start to think well that's how i got a sound you know or or you feel like you can see the breakdown i want they want this accent or that accent and then you feel like you're you know if i bring where to bring myself would that be enough you know but again it comes back or ultimately this is this is the the path of the artist right it's you the only thing that you could bring is who you are ultimately yes okay and what and as we say in Trinidad what's for you is for you do you know and i think that all of that breeds this idea of of fear this idea and i'll say this i'll say this to you frank that i have also been marginalized in the black community as well the black american community as well you know there is and you know there is this black elite this black bourgeois scene that i've been told yes he's great but he needs to get rid of the plantains and black and rice and peas you know like this is among the black community right so so it's it's such a layered thing it's it's on all and so many layers we we bring our prejudices we bring our ideas and on vice versa you have african and african and caribbean americans like oh no you're not have a distancing from african americans you know so there is such a layered sense of of what of racism anti-blackness of white supremacy it's affects all of us in such a in such a in so many ways where i feel like now you know probably if i'd done that audition in my my caribbean way that might have been the very thing that made me stand out and the very thing that the director of the casting right it's like that's interesting that's not how i perceived a mercutio being as a because you can't i can't i'm not gonna replace uh born and bred brooklyn american to do their thing you know what i mean or british you know yeah or british to do what they do yeah i know yeah even american actors get so upset when the royal shakespeare company comes everybody goes crazy say this is the real shakespeare because they are british you know even so to say maybe it's part of a colonial project you know this shakespeare this is the best and you have to try to get it you will never be as close but you can try try to get a pat on the shoulder and he says no the leader should at least be should be exactly the opposite you know as as you said the princess role the guy who was the coach had something in his mind already so this is not what art should be like yeah don't do what's already there like eugenia barba who was us yesterday yes yes i watched yeah you don't do what's already being done it's you know you don't replicate you don't do karaoke and um so and but it's so it's so hard uh to uh to to really live it and you you are you're lucky and you're good in your field but how hard is it for someone you know who maybe missed the one teacher missed the one chance just was at that audition it didn't work out and and didn't didn't yeah again so yeah yeah i i i know i agree with you it's it's um it's really a courageous act i think it's a courageous act for anybody just to stand in themselves stand in their own skin and really and that's the great artists do that right the great ones really have the courage to to do that and i think that's really the task at hand now more than ever i think now it's in many ways there is this this this this this wave of of of a collective push forward for us all to stand in ourselves and to be honest and vulnerable and and to and to rep who we are and i think that's that's that's a great thing you know i mean there's this conversation that's been having about what is a dangerous the um theatrical space like what is what is a dangerous space safe or dangerous and you know and in the theater and and you know there is this sense everything is pc everything is sanitized you can't say this you can't say that you can't do this you can't do that you know and that's what a conversation that we've been um i've been having in a lot of my classroom like what is the day like we could have respect for each other but until we're able to really put the thing in front of us and for all of us to dig in and to unpack it from where we come from and not worry if we're going to offend and this and that the other person but really if we trust each other and we trust the space could could hold us um the dangerous space is a space where we can really speak freely and really interrogate and understand what happens there stays there um but we can really work um and and we've been doing that recently in some of my classes and bringing in a lot of the conversation we're having right now and and people are are are really short sharing point of views that you know i don't know they would have shared that um in the the diverse room that is those those those classrooms because we all are we're all siloed into our communities that reflect our own values and point of views um but then when we're in this theatrical space that allows us to really get in and to really hear things that we wouldn't and um and i'm i'm excited to get back to that get back to get back to those what is the dangerous space and where is the space that's free of of these of these externalize things let's be let's be let's let's be in non-pc and let's investigate what that is let's let's let's let's let's categorize the space first to be a safe space let's acknowledge that that's let's let's consecrate that space but then let's get dirty let's get messy and see what emerges from that um so that's been kind of what what i've been really getting back to which ironically was the thing that drove me to the theater to begin with was the thing that brought me here um so who inspired you who do in your time is in theater making or filming who who who inspires you who are your yeah i mean i mean for me right now um again that that artist from Trinidad um peter minchell um brilliant brilliant um carnival maker theater maker um i'm also rediscovering james baldwin and his writing um i'm kind of going all over not just theater no no that's good exactly yeah yeah there is a writer an academic right now that i'm just in love with in his work his name is ibram x kendi and he has a book that i'm reading called stamp from the beginning that talks about anti-racist thoughts and anti-racist um and racist ideas and and anti-racism and and and the chronicling of that over american history and that's something i've been devouring of the last few few um few days um do you know yeah i mean i've i've been i've been i've been just been reading a lot so those are some of the things that i've been kind of consuming um right now i mean i love um i love his work you know i love i love his his mind i love the stuff that he's he's creating um there's a there's a theater artist that you know you may you will hear of her and she's actually a caribbean she's from Barbados the name is um charlotte rocket and she is um a theater maker in new york um who is wildly inspiring and and her work is is inspiring to me as a caribbean the fellow caribbean um theater maker um yeah those are some of the people that are that are coming to mind at the at the moment fantastic we're coming closer to the end of the talk and we always ask um um at the uh what do you um what do you say to young uh young artists and uh all people our listeners and them on what we should focus on and and so what is the uh idea i know we talked about the royal Shakespeare company it's great what they're doing because that's their thing it's authentic but a theater is a house it has many rooms that hansi says that i have that room you have to find your own room so um so just to also um make that make that clear but what do you think is of importance for us in general but also for artists yeah i think i think it's really this question of finding your voice and really being still and really reconnecting into the thing that that really moves you and i think that that's an act of courage to really find the the thing that moves you most and never to forget that and to hold on to that hold on to that spark that that that questioning whether it's an idea or concept an experience something that moves you to create you know because it is a spiritual act it is um a co-creation with the higher self and what is that what is that calling to to to to create and i think even if that thing may not seem in fashion or in vogue um i think that is the thing to keep that's the guiding light that's the north star that that was going to keep you engaged it's going to keep you grounded that's going to fill the well when when when when things get tough so that's what i would say find that light find that that voice that's in communion with that higher self and stay true to that that's that's important advice and and quite advice and you you are living that you know that you work in new york but you keep your roots to the caribbean to trinidad and to you're so also now you are a model to to to younger artists there because you do it the others can do it and it's a model for what can be done in your part of the great diversity of new york city in new york yeah it's all the complication it is a great city yes it has a history of complication of riots of a depression time and anyway it always came back and the city will come back because a brilliant place to be and you are part of it you're part of the diversity and you make it what it is and we all have to see that clearer and i think what is true now in these discussions you know yeah over there you have more agency we all will listen better but we learned that i think that we really have to listen to you so really thank you for sharing also being so open and honest and and we continue our our series tomorrow we have eva jatzi from syria who is a poet a playwright she was at the world court and also a documentary filmmaker to hear how does it feel for someone like her to be out of her country being in berlin and and making theater and she was goes back and forth also was documentaries next week we have a wonderful i think also line up we have kemi ilis anni with eboni noel golden and then we have jayton net sirai from from kosovo the national theater of kosovo has been destroyed by real estate people a very significant place and he's talking with zidjana karabunari from romania about that and iman auna iman ashtar from the palestine will talk about her her work her theater and um from jamaica we will have a sakina dya and eva ni walters to talk about their work in in jamaica so um we are continuing our our travels around the world and again and thank you for being with us taking your time thanks for our listeners it is important that we hear them it's important for paul to know that people are listening to him and what he has to say is also it is really important for us and what he says is is of significance it's about us we have to make an authentic change and go with it what we hear from all the talks is that theater we put it out there but what's important is the audience the audience to come to be there and that the audience actually creates the sense and makes connections and that's also what theater is about that the reading of the literature the reading of the place the connections we make the actions we take because of it is of significance thanks to halround for hosting us vj tia tia who gets up every morning at nine o'clock before night in los angeles and i'm not sure if halround thought we would do it so long so really great support they give us and of course the seagull team and the and san yang so thank you and paul good luck and thank you so much this has been this has been great thank you so much for this it's been our pleasure thank you and all the best and we can't wait to see your film and to see your theater working again thanks for helping us out when you came to direct at the seagull it was a great oh my pleasure thank you for having me bye bye paul