 Alright, thank you very much for keeping it Y254, let's get this discussion going, gentlemen, Karibundisana. Thank you so much. It has been a long time since we met again. Sure, sure. It's nice to meet again. How have you been? Oh, wonderful. Myself, I can say I'm proud, I'm still alive. I'm proud to be Kenyan also. I'm proud to be Kenyan, of course, yes. It's because of how have you been? How have you been? I've been good. Let's talk about BBI in the leadership and integrity. But before we get into the integrity, I'd like to start from the church perspective. When it comes to leadership in the church, Dr. Osora, I'm aware that you're the president of Destiny Restoration Center. Sure. I believe it's in Utawala. In Utawala. In Utawala. It's a church. Yes, it's a church. Now, I'm aware that you are also a reverend and a theologist. As a church leader, do you believe that the church was involved in the development of these deliberations of the BBI? I would like to quote your fellow leaders, the evangelical churches in a statement read by the Redeemed Gospel Church presiding bishop. That is Kefa Amai. Amai. That is what he said. And I quote, we are of the view that the task force deliberately took the church for granted. But let it be made clear that as per the last census, we have a representation of 82 percent and we have the ability and capacity to rally ourselves, to mobilize and have candidates who will carry the interests of the church in every constituency. Was the church involved? And do you agree with this statement? Correct. Now, at first, I could like also to take this opportunity as I give my input to the statement that they read of evangelical Kefa Amai, that which gave. That was very true because as a church, we have not been involved fully as my colleague was saying here that this is one of the best document that we have ever had before after the 2010 Constitution because there's a number of things that which were there to be amended and either to be removed or to be added in the document. However, a number of things that have been happening in the nation of Kenya without involving the church. And that tells us that even this time round, there's a number of things that the church was supposed to be involved. Now, maybe allow me to say this. We have few readers of the church. We have few pishops, pastors, reverends that what are used by the government by maybe in reaching themselves by given, maybe whatever they are given. The church readers and they are just shouting about supporting. Both of us, everyone is supporting the PPI. What we need from the PPI is the number of things to which we are not agreeing with the document to be added there. And if they are able to be added there, then as a church, we will be happy. For instance, one seed, we not spoil all the seeds. For example, there's a number of things in the church that which are not working. If you look at the pishops, we thank God and for their readership that have been there. There are our forefathers there before. Now, the churches are not registered anymore. That one does not mean that when the church is not registered, that the church will not continue. And does not mean that when something happened on 2013-2014 from 310, that that will make other pastors to serve that will not be registered. And also, if all churches will have one voice, we will be able to be consulted. That's why we needed the church to be involved and to be consulted in this document so that we can give our views. The reason why the church was, any of you believe it was not involved and the reason why it wasn't involved, one of the reasons is because the church itself is not united in terms of its own leadership. Correct. So they lack the local standard to be able to stand for the church and to give the views of the church and to be consulted. Okay. I think my take is about, initially Ram, when the process of collecting the reparations from the citizens of this country when the committee was actually behind in the program were moving from one place to another place in this country, they managed to collect several views. But what they managed to capture because I overheard some of the judge members say that this is not what we gave. And even the governors themselves, they are saying this is not what we gave. What we gave is this. It never came out as we gave. And the pastor also have the same. So the issue is much of what was given to the PPI team to put into the process or the document was not captured well. And some were not captured alone. Leave alone captured well, but some were not captured at all. So when the document came up into the public domain they realized that what was proposed are not captured in the same PPI. And that is why they were saying we need more time to have more input to build on what we... To have amendments. Yes. It is not exactly about the amendment because if I heard well from the right Honorable Ray about what they were ready to accept those ones we were not captured well in their writings. Not necessarily that they were to make any improvement of what they did, but to my understanding about the allocations that have been given by those people who are saying they were not given time or they never had a number of time to give what they had or they gave but they were not captured well by the PPI, the proponents. I mean those were the committee that drafted the document. But in a nutshell Mr. Ram, the way I look at it it should not have been the document that was going to be out to be contested. It should have been a document that was we were going to agree and say yes this is what we can capture, this is what we can remove but because of the political intrigues that has entered into the process that has actually submerged the process of the constitutional amendment process that is why we are entering into a quatma a highly contested kind of referendum that we are going to have which should not have been necessary in the first place. And members of the church believe at the end of the day that they are amongst people who are not consulted. Do you believe that at the end of the day Ram, I think I don't want to buy the idea that they were not involved because the whole process was open. The PPI, the committee who were deliberating on it they went from one place to another place. The only thing if I were heard from Kimuna in one of the radio stations TV stations says that much of what Kenyans gave what was mainly captured is that which was given by the majority of Kenyans so where a lot of weight was put on those areas or items where the majority of Kenyans actually they liberated on and much of those ones which were not liberated on actually in a massive way they were left out that is how I actually concluded but the issue is even if you have heard what the deputy president was actually arguing about that if we have a lot of have nots by the reparations that were given by the county governments by the reparations which were given by the church by the reparations which were given by persons with disability by the reparations which were given by women all these reparations if we have cups in these areas that means we must address these issues and there are a pattern in our constitution now as a leader I would like us to touch on a few issues we may not touch on everything because when we talk about leadership and integrity it's quite deep in regards to this sector the religious sector what are the religious leaders because yes at some point the religious leaders are divided some support some don't support now how should the church and the religious leaders each and every religion involved in the country how can they also be part of this leading canyons towards their direction in a way that does not bring divisive politics Dr. Soro I think what I would like to say about that is that in readers we have different people that will believe on for instance as I said earlier that this document is one of the best document it's only that it has lacked time and it has lacked involvement and also when we talk about involvement as my colleague was saying that the church it doesn't believe that the church was involved yes we agree that the church was involved but the way it was involved it was partially are you saying it was involved or not involved what I'm trying to say the church was involved because the people were involved there were few people who were greed of the money so now because they were seen as the readers of the churches now the church is all included that it was involved because if you ask me have you ever been asked by any reader on that document to give you views no, no podaseva ka religious leaders in this the way I look at it what the churches gave was a comprehensive suggestions or deliberations it was actually comprehensive but what was captured finally by the PPI team is so dismal and that is why they are saying and so many other quarters they are saying they are not saying that they were not given time they had the whole two years to deliberate on that and they had all the time but until the document came out is when they realized that what was captured is not actually what they deliberated on and that is the point of contention that's why they are saying we need to be given time to put more effort I mean to put more more meat in this skeleton so that it can reflect the desire of the church so here we are talking about representation when we talk about more time we have to look at this thing in a way because the church the views that the church gave the readers it seems that they never represented them they went and represented different views which they thought that would favor them and they are talking about more time if the document was given the time was given of two years that the people would discuss the churches the community everywhere understood that time is needed I think what we needed is a time we are talking here not a period of time maybe one or two years but we need a quality time and when we talk about the quality time you see like right now the deputy president of the Republic of Kenya is talking about these things need time and all at the same time they are talking about this PPI needs to be sorted out so that we can move forward at the same time we have the COVID-19 you see they are trying to kill one part to kill more parts with one stone at the same time when the nation is not actually in the position of dealing with the PPI or looking for more time we need to look at the COVID-19 fast and to see how we can bring the situation down so that we can have enough time for this document if you say that a leader can be able to discuss with the followers about an issue but when it comes to presenting those issues the leader presents a different thing in your view then that does not portray leadership in itself now that is why I am coming up with that the leadership we have is poor because the leaders should present what they exactly were given alright if I can remember well during the management I mean the starting up of the collection of the fuse many people were involved church leaders included the churches were included the governors were included they gave their own deliberations you talk about the women you talk about all these groups and what I am addressing is yes they gave their fuse but when the PPI came into the public domain whatever they gave was not captured and that is why we don't need a lot of time to build up the consensus out of what we have already alright I want us to talk about one thing because we are talking about representation let's talk about representation now from the high office of the land the BBI has proposed the amendment of article 97 but one to change the composition of the national assembly from 290 elected members to 360 now in your view does this bring over representation within government or is this the solution that Kenyan needs changing from 290 to 360 I think the addition of the constituencies and maybe even worse to me it is not viable viable in the sense that as we are talking Ram we are talking to our country that is having a death of over 7 trillion as we are talking now we are talking about a country which is already burdened by unemployment we are talking about a country that is already at its knees because of the COVID-19 now even the additional 35% of the default funds to the government its fiability is still in question last time Ram if you can remember very well we had only that much that the country was able to give because the government was crying that they cannot give he cannot give what he doesn't have now in this case with the addition of 35% my friend it is a problem and talking about additional manpower 290 constituencies that much that we have in fact the idea was Ram that the non-viable constituencies were going to be slashed but you see the proponents of the same has done the opposite by saying we shall add even more adding more without really considering the viability let me tell you Ram this country the taxable capacity has been touched to the last and this is the question that I want to pose to everyone who is watching from home in terms of leadership do we need more leaders do we need more representation do we need less leaders and less representation leadership and integrity of the nation the hashtag is there standke at Ram Maguko at Y254 channel on Twitter remember to give us your take in regards to this do we need more representation or is the number enough and can the country sustain it you are an economist it is not sustainable my friend because look at it my friend as we stand today this country is living on debts we have debts that we have to pay that we are no longer able to pay and now we are talking about over representations now Dr. Rotech there is one issue that you've addressed you've talked about the money issue we have money trickling down to the constituencies the percentage has increased will that also be a boost to the economy to me what I can say about the default funds the additional funds that has been put into the county government it is a plus to me it is very encouraging but you see creating more more stomachs to feed does not occur well in the kind of economy that we have why am I saying the offices that are created will require money any of these that you create the two deputies that one will incur a lot of resources which of course like the president actually expressed that we want to solve the perennial problem after every election we use we normally have chaos and if the creation of the two positions the position of the prime minister will solve the problem that is what I am supporting 100% but any additional positions like the one of members the national assembly to me I am not saying it is viability doctor sorrow representation let me quote hondrabol doctor William Ruto said this there is no reason why we should have a large number of legislators we do not want more government but a better government this is not William Ruto this is hondrabol Kuzitani that is what he said so between these two which one do we need do we need more government but a better government those are the words of moishimiwa I think what we need we need a better government we don't need more positions not more representation not more representative because as my colleague was talking about the more offices credit the better and the good readers that you can read it's not about the multitude it's not about the more numbers of the readers but it's about the better management now when it comes to okay you've talked about we need a better management of resources but representation has been an issue in the nation the two thousand general the bbi addresses this it's very true that the bbi addresses the two the gender but when you look at them you know when we talked about women in leadership and we created the position of women have they given the office if we start from there have they given the office and they were represent because I've had many women if they think that we have not been given finances to a nepolas to move forward the project to which we were supposed to do and many people are complaining that what is the position of the women now then the women they should be given finances that means the resources and everything so that they would be in a position to be operating and they need these positions and they need the positions we may need to be in leadership and that is why we have an increase of these constituencies because that is also a factor when you say that women need to be in leadership yet it is these numbers that are reflected in the 360 how then do you say that we don't need the same same numbers when we look at the previous the previous constitution that is the 20th when they were talking about women in leadership yes we created the 47 positions of the women from every county to have a women representative now when we got the women representatives does we have resources that are nepoling them to do what is necessary because it is one thing to have women in leadership and it is another thing to have women with resources that they will use to empower the county they are representing having women in leadership without resources is like not having them having them to receive salary to show in the document and to show the nation that we have women in leadership what we need is the resources that will empower them so that they will be able to do what is necessary for the county in the position of women you addressed that women in leadership it is a factor that is adding up to these numbers and many Kenyans are complaining about this let me answer you the issue of maybe the proposal that we need in leadership is not actually the numbers what we need is the quality of leadership and then again the formula to be used to identify the position of women in this leadership has been an issue but we can still solve the problem with the same number that we had but has the BBA it has brought a very easy solution no it is not about the easy solution my brother has actually said when it comes to real development what is actually are we trying to fulfill the two third gender maturity the one third gender without really addressing their needs at their own home crowd even when the women the so-called the women representatives from our different county governments even them they have not been financed to the level that they can really be true representatives of their own people so what we were supposed to be to have been addressing is to make additional funding to the same number of women representatives in their respective counties to be able to deliver to their own people then number two the formula that has divided our national assembly that they have hanged for almost 10 years without really coming up with the two third gender I think it is something that they should come up with the packet of the women that we have in the current respective position alright as you talk about representation let me quote Hon. Rila Amolo Dinga he said this and I quote I have been very much part of the struggle for reforms and change and will never be a part of any amendment that will recreate an imperial presidency also stand about the proposed executive structure the BBI and will it create an imperial presidency I think when you look at the powers given by the current proposed I mean the BBI it is like the winner take it all issue was not actually solved but they give more powers to the president who can fire or hire the kind of prime minister look at it look at it this way because when you say the president shall appoint or rather nominate to be prime minister from the same winning party in this case he has got the powers to fire or hire what does that reflect in your mind it means he is a very powerful person and then again they are talking about the judiciary whereby also they have to be to appoint or rather be allowed to have a hand in the appointment of the ombudsman who will luckily check the judiciary in its operations and then again you talk about the IEPC whose membership will be decided by the respective parties now looking at all this to me it is dismembering the independence of the IEPC in the other place and then also having a hand of the chief executive of the highest the chief executive of the land influencing all these changes will luckily mean that he has immense powers to the management of the other respective arms of the government leadership do you agree with what he is saying actually what Dr. Rotech is talking about and one thing that is interesting as you address that it has not addressed the winner takes it all what I am looking here is that you see we don't have a video president when we look at this constitution to be true to ourselves because at the moment the president have power to fire the CS even to fire because like now Matiangi is like the prime minister it's only that the position has not been introduced officially that is the prime minister you see when he is talking that there is no jurisdiction that says that he is we are just saying that he is acting on the capacity of the prime minister because in the document if you look at it what it says is about the prime minister what is the work of the prime minister in charge just like the Kimuña is it Kimuña the position in the parliament the majority leader you see in the document the prime minister is like the majority leader in the parliament and you are saying that Matiangi is acting in the position what they have done is an assumption because they are brought from the ministry and the parliament the position that which is created right now of the prime minister it is actually overseeing that assumption is misleading why? the reason why I am saying this if the prime minister the president can fire the prime minister and they can select and at the moment you see if the president that actually give their position to the Matiangi what does that mean still the president has the power either to fire or to recruit the same case applies to the document because if the president who is going to recruit the prime minister or to fire the Kenya conference of Catholic Bishop said this and I quote to give the president the power to appoint a prime minister and two deputies risks consolidating more power around the president thereby creating an imperial presidency that is what you are saying that is what I am saying and maybe if I may chip in on that you see at the moment actually the politicians let me say as politicians we are fighting on the position we don't know who is going to be president either it's Laira, it's Uru again it's David president you see here we have no point to fight at because anybody can be the president and if you are the president still you can appoint and you can fire you can remember I think we are coming from a history of almost an imperial presidency but many years back the reason why if you can remember that he is right hon. Rai Laodinga he has fought all through his life what was he fighting for? he was fighting this imperialism he was fighting the imperialism that was there by then and that is why we are worried to go back now the kind of democracy that Kenyans are enjoying now it is out of that kind of struggle over our past leaders so you are saying the building bridges initiative is actually not building anything you are saying it is taking us back to Egypt that is my worry because let me tell you if we have to have a government that is rational we must have an independent judiciary we must have an independent legislation we must have an independent executive in this case they will be operating well and each one is actually giving the other ones checks and balance so in this case when you have the other one overweying the others it will be a dictatorship it will be totalitarian it will be the old calling you may call it whatever so in this case we don't want to eat on our gains where this country has gone we don't want to eat those gains we have to go a little bit further to make Kenya a pure democratic state and by doing so we must have independent executive independent judiciary and independent legislation who are able to close check and we shall have an independent nation that will enjoy its fruits of democracy which all these translate to integrity whether it is building or promoting integrity in the nation many leaders raised concerns about this document and about whether it actually represents the interests of Kenyans and Baringon North Member of Parliament William Cheptumo he labeled the BBI as a two people's political project and this is what he he said and I quote that the most logical thing to consider is how to accommodate the views raised by various stakeholders it now appears that the BBI process was all about the politics of two people if there is no room to accommodate new views then why do you tell Kenyans to read it I think and I'm connecting that with what you say you're talking about dictatorship what Cheptumo is raising is the first people to raise concern about the past of the many elections that we have had that has called a lot of problems was this excellent the president himself and then the prime minister was on the extreme other end what is there he was in the opposition now the two great men of our nation came together for a handshake and say let us reason together how can we move together without all these problems that we have been facing so they started as two the people who agreed for a handshake were two now they sold the idea to Kenyans when they sold the idea to Kenyans it was now legalized and the process was moved to Kenyans to ascend to it through giving their views they are giving the directions as leaders of course they gave the direction now the risk that we are facing of which the Cheptumo is raising is that if the document if the input that we are now making as Kenyans that will make this document owned by the Kenyans is by giving them by giving their views to this document by giving their input to the documents and then Kenyans will now own it as ours that's why we normally say we as Kenyans contribute this it will be our constitution so if it will fail to address if it will fail to to receive the deliberations from the Kenyans then it will be the business of the two at the top that is what Cheptumo is alleging that if it was there but there are people who believe that or go with the notion that it is a two man issue and therefore they will not get involved in it I disagree with that let me finish my case it is not a two man issue why Kenyans support the idea the two leaders actually keep their views that this is the direction we have to take if we have to heal the problem you mentioned earlier that it may bring to dictatorship that was what you said meaning it will translate to a one man issue we are building a consensus on the subject that is national let me make some corrections there this is the assumption of Rotich that what the Mweshimima said that this is a two man document to me that according to his assumption it feels like that is what he meant but the truth of the matter is that the Mweshimima meant that this document is for two and because if you look at it he said it appears the BBI process is all about the politics of two people and if you hear let's now look at this if you hear a number of people who are talking about the document of two people this thing does not work because from the beginning I said this document is one of the best documents that we have ever had it is only that it needs a number of changes a few changes just like what doctor Iseksansu Wiamuruto said the other day that what we need is just to sit and look at what is not good for us and what's good for us then but now people have taken far my friends from Liftifare region a number of them Iseksansu Deputy President is very wise and what is always talking if you capture his mind but now the followers of him they don't consider his points and look at what he meant because he don't want to look like it's not of the documents it's of the document because this is the politics of 2022 that people are already praying for you are saying the followers of the deputy president are misleading they are misreading they are misinterpreting the issues they are misinterpreting the issues they are actually common in Wanaingi because the document we need it we need the document to just agree as they were talking about and do a number of necessary things there then the document will be of help to us How are you saying they are misleading Kenyansi in what way are they misinterpreting the deputy president if you go to the Raris what the deputy president is talking about is of the document and now when they are together Raris for example when the document was launched you reason to the speeches and then now they are of their own Raris what is actually spoken there is also quite different from what when they are in a function which has the deputy president the former prime minister and the president why they are not consistent for a wise person you will always look for the consistency because if you look at you may say are you of the document or you are not of the document and that's why I say I don't want to look like I am sideliding from one party we need to go to the truth and you see there is some similarity between you and the deputy president and this this is the similarity you are saying the deputy president has doesn't appear to be opposing or supporting it or proposing it that's the same position deputy president when you stood there you said you don't support and you don't reject and did they agree who agrees you see what they said about is that the deputy president said that we need some time to do some corrections and when the former prime minister what he talked about from my research in 2018 let's come together and agree so there is a part they needed to agree when they agree you will have your stand we will have our stand there is a notion no no no but we have our stand because if they agree on a number of things because we are just having assumption that the number of things which are not correct they are the ones they want to agree for instance we were talking about the representatives the number is too high we don't agree as Mabadriko party number two we need this document to go to the common manager to be involved politicians what they are praying is they are trying to defend their master now when you talk about the master and that is the same issue that they are talking about they are saying that this is a politics of two people you are mentioning that do you agree that that is a politics of two people the BBI now let me have this before Dr. Rzic gets in you see the nation was in actually a massive failure if you look at the previous 5 years of 2013 of the leadership of the President of the Republic of Kenya Urumwega Kenyata and then that's what Uru thought which regards that I will leave behind he thought that if I would involve my brother the former prime minister and we come together the common one inji we settle down and that's where you see at least the way is learning the government the common one inji we have no more as much as covid is there economic challenges, psychological challenges spiritual challenges but at least we are moving on one way and to add up you see what the prime minister needs many people will be shocked that they are not looking for the position they are trying to fight and to get because this is the only opportunity they have gotten to review the legacy actually they are looking forward on how they will review the legacy before they retire so it's not a politics of two people in brief you're saying it's not and you're saying it is no what I'm saying the originators of the handshake or it originated from two people when the handshake took the ground by his excellence the president and the prime minister Ayila Odinga convincing Kenyans that this is the right way to go it was now established as a public document for people to give their views to build up now where the problem is is when now that the content of the document is in public domain Kenyans are reacting they are saying all mine was not captured all yours was not captured now and his excellence also said let us have a consensus let us build up let us come up together and build this document and have a better document that will have no contention or competition now that one has not succeeded they are saying there will be no change what they can only change are some few the way it was captured like what the prime minister said about the pastoralist now the issue of having more input is no longer there so what are we expecting from the same descending faces from those people who are saying we were supposed to have built up the consensus on this what will happen you've mentioned pastoralist and let me mention nominarily the member of parliament Sankok said even if I'm left alone ranger I will lead the rest of the country in the anti BBI campaign this is a doctor document it doesn't capture any issue we submitted on behalf of the disabled or pastoralist community that is what I'm telling you Ram the biggest the contentious issue here is not only about the content of the current BBI or the proposal that are in it but having failed to capture the issues the issues that were reported by the majority of Kenya yet you support it my big prayer Ram today if there will be a better input if all these people will not be left aside and we come up with a consensus without going for we are going to referendum only to say yes I would have preferred that these people have spent if not waste a little time to accommodate the views of those people who are left behind now this is representing people with disability but is now talking the minds of the majority of Kenyans who are saying yes our views were not accepted and let me tell you Ram one other big question is that we can ask who owns the BBI is it still a public document and that is what I am asking here is it a public document the owners the BBI is a public document and when we were talking about the Mwishmywa was talking about the two people it's only that it's not giving out the facts and how we meant because again if you look at the previous election the Mwishmywa right ahead like 6 million people and do 6 million people that means what they are doing they are presenting the public because these people we cannot underestimate them we have numbers we are talking about the constitution we are talking about our constitution my constitution as a citizen of this country so whatever I contribute this constitution will cover me in my government so that is why it is very very important that all the issues raised by respective stakeholders must be accommodated if we have a consensus if we talk about consensus should we have a contested referendum of yes and no that is definitely what is going to happen it is no longer about whether it will it is going to happen now let's talk about one issue leadership and integrity corruption the BBI proposes that article 80 A will put to an end of corruption calling on parliament to pass laws and legislation that will ensure speedy investigation prosecution and trial of cases in court and this is in regards to now how corruption cases have been handled in the past this proposal on article 80 will it stick the proposal article 80 actually that is one of the articles that makes us believe that this PPI is one of the best document that we have ever had the reason why when they talk about prosecution and all the amount of the resources that they are creating an avenue on how you know like even parliament to sit and to talk about the issue of corruption maybe a number of people maybe they are involved they need sitting allowance and everything that means there must be the resources that will allow them to do that prosecution there will be resources because right now if you reason to the president of SKN the Maraga a number of time is talking about Iraq's resources no support you see if there is no written document they will give you support as much as you will be working you will be having integrity you will be in a readership but there is no resources your government is not actually even supporting you so much as much as they are speaking there is no action you won't do anything and that is why that article 80 is going to help us to fight corruption because they have created avenues the strategies of using on how to fight corruption you send the quotation on how I have a lot of reservation Ram much of what is happening in this country you talk about corruption why the culprits have not been able to be brought to book why people are still working free when they have actually squandered the government and not the public resources it has not been because of lack of resources lack of the constitution much of what even it would have been done it would have been done through legislation it doesn't require a constitution to change to bring about the culprits it is just an act and that will do this so you know what you are saying the BBI has no effect plus negative nothing it has been proved to sweeten the aspiration of Kenyans is to see that corruption is removed from this country let me tell you why I am saying this Ram is because why corruption has been Ramban in this country it is not because we lack the laws the constitution is there the will power the will has not been there and that is what we are lacking it is not the constitution it is the will to prosecute the culprits the BBI is not promoting integrity in this area of corruption we are adding a flesh on top of a flesh I have no problem with what the BBI is proposing in order to kunona I have no problem with what the BBI is proposing but what I am telling you those who have corrupted this nation it is not because we have been lacking the laws or the constitution I mean to nip the culprits it has been because of lack of the will now we were talking about the other day the issue of the KEMSA how many people have been booked how many people are in does that mean that even the process and the culprits are not known how many people have looted the public funds in this country and they are all free outside there is it because of lack of laws or the constitution in the land no it is lack of the will power to prosecute if the BBI is coming up with more flesh I have no problem at all let it bring but why but there is no effect I wonder you say the document has is just adding our flesh on top of our flesh we already have the laws we already have the laws that covers these areas but if we want to build more on the laws that were maybe that was omitted but what I am seeing personally to prosecute you agree on that I don't agree actually because even in the family there is no laws there is laws which are known you are the father, she is the mother these are the children, the father should be the head that is the normal laws but there is laws that you go extra miles and you put this and this should be done like this and the time limit and all those things that they have put some limit of cases because the number of cases have been going for so many years and without being sorted out they have put actually time limit if you keep on reading on that article and they have provided for resources they have provided for the avenues so what we are looking here if the effectiveness are going to be actually concentrated on that article then we are going to see change Ram let me just point one thing that Maraga once said what Maraga was really complaining of was lack of resources so little funds was put into the judiciary he has never he has never and then again there was a time when his excellency said that why is it that much of the backlog of these corrupt cases are actually filing up in the courts and they are taking a lot of time to execute what Maraga says what we need we need a better qualified a better skill investigators who will come up with real touching case evidence to prosecute those culprits he never say that he is lacking the constitution he never say he is lacking the laws never complain about the laws so what I had actually he was lacking of is the resources to execute his work perfectly because those experts those go with high integrity they also need to be paid well and they cannot get to where they are not paid because this is we are in the country whereby the high experience you have the higher you are expecting to be paid and I think when the resources came actually we are just underlining the term resources because it has come to cover you can hire more prosecutors you can hire more experts you see you will be able to do in that is what actually they call the constitution as that no before you because I am told time is not on let's talk about this issue here moving forward as you wrap it up 2022 I am aware you are vying for member of parliament seat I don't know if you are vying but this BBI do you feel as though it makes you proud to be a leader in this nation considering that you may want or you will vying in 2022 as we bring this discussion to close your take on that my take on that if a number of things which have been actually put on that document they are going to to be used effectively and they are going to work to agree on few things because when we talk about the agreement with the deputy president and with the handshake with the guru and the leader what we meant is that if they two agree they are able to deliver the message to the common man engine but does it give you hope for a future they have a hope for a future to be a leader I think what I am longing to see Ram come 2022 after the lecture of 2022 that is what I am vying and my take is the managers of the BBI as they are now if they want to see us sailing beyond 2022 as a peaceful and united nation they must be able am using the word must be able to accommodate all the views of the Kenyans we will come up with a balanced document a document that Kenyans will call my document that is my take thank you very much that is Dr. Roteach Kibi Yosef Kari Muzara thank you so much Umenifreja Leo and Dr. Roberto Soro thank you very much gentlemen for finding time to join me tonight thank you we stand KE at Rama Guko at Y254 channel that brings us to the end of this conversation tonight it has been a pleasure remember this discussion on BBI is long it's intensive we cannot cover everything last week we talked about the youth today we are talking about leadership and integrity next week what should we talk about well keep the conversation going and we shall see again next week on Tuesday at 8pm right here on Y254 God bless you my name is Ram Aguko