 Who are you at right now? What city are you in? Yeah, so I'm in China. I actually live in Shanghai, but I'm actually right now I'm in a smaller place called Zhou Jiang, which is like where my family lives. I'm actually in my aunt's house right now. Cool. Who are you at right now? What city are you in? Yeah, so I'm in China. I actually live in Shanghai, but I'm actually right now, I'm hearing my voice. No, I'm a nightmare. What's happening? No. Is it because of streaming? Are you hearing your voices? Yeah, we did. Oh, yeah. Oh, wow. Is that still happening right now? Oh, no. Okay, that's probably because my laptop popped up like a window of our live stream. Oh, okay, are we streaming? Yes, yes, we are. All right, so let me first say hi to everybody. There's people joining us right now. Thank you so much for joining us today. My name is Alison Chu. I am the co-founder and executive producer of Tron Stage and we are a Boston based theater company dedicated to cultivating Asian-American narratives in theater. So today's conversation is the second event of our long line series, Tron at Home, which is a series of live streamed events curated by young Asian-American artists of Tron Stage, hoping to find a community and to amplify the voice of Asian-American theater makers through readings and conversations. And this conversation series pairs in early career with an established theater makers in their discipline. And we invite you to join the conversations to discover insights and momentum to delve into our future work. So today we are so excited to be in conversation through extremely talented players, Celine Song and Max Yu to talk about the craft and love of being a writer. So Celine and Max, I know I've asked this already. How are you doing? I love it. We're living, we're good. Yeah. Are you all right? Are you all right? You know, chilling in my world, basically, yeah. Yeah, yeah. So tell us again, where are you right now, Max? Oh yeah, so like I'm in China. So originally I live in Shanghai, but right now I'm in this place called Zhoujiang, which is where my family is. So I'm in my aunt's house right now. But yeah, I'm in China. And where are you zooming from today, Celine? I'm in New York City. I'm in East Village in a sublet. Yay. That's perfect. Thank you so much for joining us. So a little bit about Celine, her play Endlings received its world premiere in 2019 at American Repertory Theater and it had its New York premiere in 2020 at New York Theater Workshop. It has been named a finalist for the 2020 Susan Blackburn Prize and it was selected for the 2018 O'Neill National Players Conference. Her play Tom and Eliza was a semi-finalist for the American Playwriting Foundation's 2016 Relentless Award. She holds an MFA from Columbia and Celine is also a staff writer on Amazon series, The Wheel of Time. And Max over here is the 2019 recipient of the Relentless Award. The 22-year-old writer performer won the fifth annual award for his play Night Watch, which he wrote as a senior at the UCLA where he majored in playwriting. He grew up in the San Francisco Bay Area and currently lives in Shanghai, China where he teaches English. So I guess not at this moment, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I got you, I got you. Once again, welcome. So today we're live streaming this conversation on HowlRound Theater Commons, our live stream partner. So if you're with us on Zoom you can ask us questions using the Q&A function on the bottom of your screen. If you're joining us on Facebook you can also leave us a question there. So, Celine and Max, I am so excited for you two to be with us today. So to, I guess to start us off, tell us a little bit about where you are right now I guess physically and emotionally is what I'm curious about. Where are some of the things that kept you entertained during this time? I only really have been able to watch reality TV. I recently watched Too Hot to Handle, which was a Netflix and before that I watched Tiger King and before that I watched both The Circle and there was another one that was really wild. Like there's one, a love is flying, that's what it was. But these are all reality TV shows that I do not recommend except Tiger King, which I do recommend. It was all over Twitter. Like I woke up one day and like entire Twitter was talking about it. I was like, what? Okay, yeah. Yeah. That's nice. How are you, Max? For me, like, so it's different because I'm in China. So like, I'm like kind of already out of quarantine. Like that's why I'm able to travel. Yeah, to me, it's like kind of it's interesting because emotionally, like a lot of people will ask me, like, oh, how's it going? Because like now that America's having a lot of people out of my American friend ask me, you know, how's it going over there? And my answer is always like, well, actually, like, like what you're feeling right now was like me two months ago because I've already been through this has been like, I'm already like in the third or fourth month of this whole coronavirus thing. But it's like weird because like now things are actually, you know, going back to normal, like, but it's like a new normal. Like I still have to wear a mask outside and you have to have like a QR code to like get into places. And it's also weird because like now that the more of the Western countries are getting the coronavirus, now it's like there's this weird kind of like discrimination against foreigners in China. And I'm like, I mean, I don't look like a full because I just, I mean, my blood is Chinese. But I'm like at the train station and I'm like, please, you see my American passport, please, please, please don't, don't like, let me, please. I was bagging that the entire time because sometimes they quarantine if you have like a, like a non-Chinese passport. But yeah, but you know, it's a new, it's a new normal. It's weird. I'm living. Yeah. Crazy here. A new normal. I feel like we're like slowly getting towards a new normal over here as well. So I totally feel you. So I guess let's talk about theater. So the run of Endlings and your theater workshop, although cut short was extremely successful. And I believe, I believe Max, you've heard it a million times at this point, but I want to say congratulations once again on the award and congratulations to lean on a wonderful run of Endlings, which I was really lucky to see in person. I was going to see it second time. I got my bus tickets and everything else tickets already, but I was really, really lucky to see it. I guess what was it like for you to see Endlings having such an impact in Boston and in New York at this point? And I guess for Max, what is it like to be winning the award, just like the emotional state of everything that happened at this moment for you? Totally. I mean, I think that, I guess what you're asking is like, what was sort of the something that you were feeling when something is happening in your career as a writer, maybe because I feel like I think it is different to, yeah, because I feel like having a production of something, I don't really know that I can encapsulate what that actually feels like, but then at the time, it doesn't really feel like it has anything to do with your career. It feels like it has to do with the actual thing that you're making. So it doesn't really feel like, it doesn't really feel like, I think what I'm saying is like, I don't think that it's necessarily comparable to the amazing award that Max won. Cause I feel like, I imagine that the feeling of that is like very much like an elation and like, it's like money and it's like very exciting. I feel like having a production of something is more like, well, every day we show up and then the thing happens. But of course, the other thing is also, I totally recognize that it's like, having a production of something is the point of writing something to see it exist. So I'm like, yeah. The other thing that I want to know is like, I want to know Max sort of like, who's going to do it? Who's going to do your play? I'm really excited to see your play. So who's going to do your play? That's what I want to know. Great question, Celine. The answer is, I don't know and no one knows. But I think there are people interested, but yeah, I think right now it's mostly just like they're people interested. Yeah, like, I guess like how does it feel to win this award? I mean, all I remember is like, I remember they told me I was like a semi-finals. They told me I was a semi-finals, like literally the day before, like I was packing to leave to go to China, like literally the day before. And then I dropped my phone and I'm like, mom, mom, like I want this thing. And she's like, what are you talking about? I was like, it's like the thing. And she didn't really know that I wrote this play because she didn't really know too much about like what I do. Cause I tried to explain to her. I'm like, oh yeah, it's about our family. And she's like, oh, okay. Well, like, well, I mean, I see you're happy about it. So it must mean something, but oh, good job, son. And I'm like, yeah, mom. And I'm like, I'm a semi-finals. She's like, what does that mean? I'm like, it means I'm recognized mom. And she's like, okay, sure. By who? By people, important people. And she's like, all right, sure. And then I go to China and then like a month in, like I'm a record that's phone call from the relentless committee. And they're like, oh, I think she didn't know that I won. They were talking to me and I thought they just talked to me about like, you know, there's a good reading series you get if you're a semi-finalist. And then like halfway through the call, she's like, Lord, it's like, oh yeah, you know Max, like, you know you won, right? You're not a semi-finalist. Like you won, you won it. And I'm like, I'm like, what? What? And I'm like, I'm sorry, like, I was like kind of like screaming. And this is like, by the way, this is like literally past midnight in my apartment. And like my apartment building full of like a bunch of old ladies. And I'm sure she's gonna be like, oh my God, no way. I'm 22, that's bullshit. Like, fuck that, fuck off. Like, oh, that's crazy. But I mean, it's just kind of like elation. And then, yeah, cause like a lot of it is like, in a way it's kind of like a dream come true. Like, right after graduate college, I get like the kind of like recognition that I'm like, I'm like, recognized as like being good by this higher institution. So I mean, in another way, it's the giant eco boost. Yeah, basically it's the giant eco boost, essentially, I think. But as for like, but as you know, it's almost more like, yeah, I think it's really just more an eco boost. Cause I think about like, what has happened from the award? I mean, it's weird cause like instantly like an agent and a manager, where people were like, reach out to me and I'm like, what, what do you think I'm cool enough? And like, that happens, but as, but it's funny cause like, and now that I get the agent manager, like in terms of production, now I'm learning, it's like, I'm learning like, well, it might not necessarily happen for like next, like several, several years. Like, so yeah, that's kind of, I thought like, I thought I figured out like who would want to do my play, but eventually I'm learning, it's like, yeah, even if you win this kind of war, like people, definitely people might not want to be your play just for several, for several years, just cause, you know, for a number of factors, like I'm new, I'm like very, very new. I've never won anything before this award. So people don't know if like, I'm like really worth it, I guess. But yeah, I'm coming more to that kind of stuff. How old are you Max? I'm 22 years old. You're 22? Oh, so cute. I know, I'm like, I'm a, I'm a baby. Yeah, you're an old baby. Yeah. But yeah, it's like, cause I remember to tell me is like, I have like, I'm like, pre-career, cause like people, everyone who's won that award before, they're like early career, but I'm like, they call me pre-career, cause when they try to Google me after the award, the people at the award, they're like, yeah, we couldn't find anything on you. And I'm like, what, my website didn't show, my free card website, which is a great, by the way, it's a great website. C-A-R-R-G, so it's a great free website maker. They kind of like my website. And I'm like, yeah, no, you'd like go like four pages into Google to find it. But yeah, they couldn't find anything on me. And I was the first to be like, yeah, we couldn't find anything on you. And I'm like, yeah, cause I just graduated from college. Wow. Cause Alison, you're in school too, right? You're, you're undergrad also? Yes, yes. I graduated in two weeks. Oh my God, I'm 22. How are you going to do those animal crossing graduations? Do you play animal crossing? I don't. I heard that you can like do animal crossing graduation where you can like invite people to a graduation ceremony and then like, you know, I don't know. No way, no. I just saw something on Twitter cause I started playing animal crossing as in like my sister plays animal crossing. And then I just, I became the second player at her town. So I just got into animal crossing. That's incredible. All my friends are playing. All my friends are playing. I just like, like being completely honest, I have like no time. Although I will love to invite people to my animal crossing graduation, but working towards graduation, I have no time to build anything. I heard it's very time consuming on animal crossing. Hopefully a virtual graduation might happen for me. Hopefully. Yeah. So Max, I, we both read Endlings and Celine has never read Night Watch. And one of the reasons I was really excited about today is that having read Endlings and Night Watch both, I think there are incredible connections between the two pieces. And I think to me there's something in common about the two pieces that I absolutely appreciate is the beautiful honesty in the work and the ability to connect past and present moment. And would you, I guess, Max, tell us a little bit about Night Watch and what this play means to you as a writer now after writing it before graduation, while you were in college and now winning the award? Yeah, I would say it's my first real play that I wrote. Actually, so when reading Endlings, one of the things I loved about Endlings is I remember this quote, I don't know the exact quote, but it's like I've been writing these kind of white plays for years and I really resonated with that quote because this is not my first play that I wrote, but for most of my years in college, I guess we can call white plays. And yeah, I wrote these two fulling plays and I remember writing them, I remember people would ask me, sometimes they wouldn't do it directly, but they'd be like, oh yeah, don't you want to write about something else? And I'm like, what do you mean? It's like, you're culture or stuff like that. I'm like, yes, I know, I know, my face, it's very Asian, I know, it's incredible. And I get that, but and because of that, like somewhere in my junior year, I just kind of like stopped doing theater actually, I thought I was gonna like, because I just hated theater actually, I stopped doing it, and then I just like started to do it with my life. And then I kind of, I remember I went to China and then I just, yeah, I started talking to my grandma, lover and then, because I wanted to learn Chinese, that was the original thing, because like I could speak it, but like I still can't read it that well and I still need to be a little more fluent. And then yeah, she started telling me all these stories and I was like, yo, this is crazy. And I learned more about my family and then I come back this senior year and my advisor was like, hey, Mac, aren't you still majoring in playwriting? Don't you have like a thesis to write? And I'm like, that's true, I should probably write a thesis, I guess. And then yeah, that which somehow comes out of it. And yeah, it's like the, it's definitely like the first like real play that I wrote in my life where like I was like legitimately proud of it. And like, yeah, that took everything out of me. And after I just, I remember after I finished it, I was like dead, like that destroyed me mentally, but it was so worth it. I had called me in the stage reading in which like, oh yeah, I played the main character and I also directed it and I was like writing it at the same time, it was so crazy. Cause I tried to, it was hard to find people who could speak any kind of Mandarin at UCLA. So they allowed me to be from outside, but yeah, I did that. And it was like there was like tears involved. And then I graduated and then like, yeah, that toy, I honestly just forgot about it. I only didn't think about, I didn't think about it yet until like I won that award and I'm like, oh, okay. But yeah, it's like, yeah, it's just like the first like real play I've ever wrote in my life. Yeah. Yeah. I wonder, oh, Max, you read Endlings. What are your thoughts? You've never seen it, you read it? What was your reaction to it? What are my thoughts and reactions to that is the question I've been waiting for Alison. Okay. So my thoughts are, okay. So like, I remember just like, yeah, I think I kind of like got on. I think I kind of like mentioned it before. So it was like, it's kind of like cultural expectations like of, yeah, people ask me like, you know, oh yeah, I should like write about your culture. And I'm like, I don't know what that means. And for a while I really rejected that. And then I did write this play that like was about my culture. It was like I'm Asian American. And then, you know, I wrote about my family that was going through communism in China. And like I'm very proud of it. I'm still very proud of it, but I kind of know them like in a way giving them what I want. And I'll actually after winning the award, I'm, yeah, actually I read at least like the perfect time ever like lose like a month, you know, yeah a month after I won the award. And I remember just relating it, relating it to it so much. Cause just about, cause I just remember like I would get these kind of phone calls because the award and people would say congratulations. And it was so weird because the lobby's phone calls I could tell like, I guess in a way I could almost tell that they're white because a lot of these phone calls will always start with like, they would be like, you know, hey, congratulations. I love Night Watch, you know, I'm not Chinese. I can't speak Chinese. I can't read Chinese, but I love your play. And like they were like, actually like status kind of stuff to me. And I'm like, oh, okay, cool. Or like, I know the New York times are cool. Like having that interview, they don't ask me like, they ask me the kind of questions like, you know, how does it feel to be Asian American? Like, you know, I, you know, I love Asian Americaness. I love diversity. I love that. You know, I'm not Asian American, I'm not diverse, but you know, I love diverse. I just want to let you know that. And I'm like, cool, cool. Like I appreciate it. This is a good gesture. I appreciate this. But I don't know what to say. I'm just like, yeah, thank you. I too, I've been an Asian American for 22 years. It's a, it's not a bad life. I appreciate it. And like, it just feels very weird. Yeah. It just feels weird. Totally, I feel like the, I feel like there's a moment where we actually can't live in constant conversation with white patriarchy, isn't like, we cannot let that be the more important story in our lives. And I think that has been, I think that is very difficult, especially given that we are sort of like, I mean, like, I actually want to know, Max, how long, I mean, assuming that you were born in America then. Yeah, well, how long, how long did you live there? How long did I live in America? Yeah, all of the time, right? The whole time? Oh yeah, the whole time. Like I only just went to China after I graduated college. Cool. Okay. Well, so like for me, like I was, I lived in Korea, I was born in Korea and I lived in Korea for 12 years. And then I, and then I immigrated to Canada and then I immigrated to New York. And I feel like when we live in America, I feel like it is sort of without question that the thing that we're eating every day, the thing that we're fed on every day is by patriarchy just because of the nature of the country, right? So I feel like that is something that is going to be, I don't know, it feels like it's like in our blood in a very different way. I think it depends on, you know, what kind of culture you also grew up in because I also did grow up in Canada, which is like a very different kind of culture than it is in America, I feel like. I don't know. So I feel like that's sort of what it is, but I feel, so I think that, I don't know, I just appreciated what you just said. Like it's like I've been Asian for 23 years. It's been fine. It's been great, you know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah, but yeah, totally. I don't know why I'm saying that, but. No, I feel what you're saying. I love track. Because it feels like people are like, when they ask like, you know, how do I feel about being Asian? It's like they expect me to like, what is the answer would you like me to say, that you know, I've been oppressed or whatever, or like, you know, I face the discrimination, you know, but I'm better for it, or something like that. Something like, you know, really like moving story or something like that. And if you're like, yeah. I mean, I wonder if it's also generational, because I feel like, even when I'm 31, but around the time that like, I was in high school or something like that, I feel like there was actually a little, like, I guess I can say that like, there are moments where I was like, oh, that is a little oppressive. But I know that for like people that are older than me, I think that they have very concrete examples of them feeling very oppressed for being in the skin that they're in. But even in my generation, I was sort of like, well, it wasn't really like that. It came off in a different way or like it showed up in a different way. But I wonder if you being 22 in an Asian-American, I wonder if you were also, you had a very different generational experience too. Yeah, but I almost don't think it's generational. I think it's like where you grew up in like, especially when we're in America. Like, I mean, I grew up in a place where like, my high school in my town was like, there was like a couple of Asians. I think it was like kind of like, it was mostly white than Latino. And like, there's like a couple Asians and like two black people. And that's kind of like the demographic of my high school. Yeah, and there were definitely times that Mom was like, hmm, I wouldn't say the word like oppressive because I just didn't know that kind of word. I would just be like, hey, that's like not cool. And that like hurts my feelings. That's like really like, I can really say it. Yeah. Only until college until like a, I guess I learned these kinds of words of like, you know, oppressive or like, you know, minority or this kind of stuff. And like, but in college, like, you know, that's when I would hear this word kind of like, diversity, like really like, actually, you know, way college made me more like aware of like, of my race because people will kind of like celebrate it. And like, I mean, it's good, but in a way it also kind of speaks as kind of like, you know, expecting me to do something when it's kind of like weird anthropological gaze that I can never like be free from in a way. So, yeah, which is better than being like oppressive, I guess. Right. I mean, I feel like there's a lot of assumptions that just get made, but I don't know. It's like, it's like a part of living in a society. I think, yeah, it's weird. Cause I feel like I certainly do not want my conversations about me or like narratives that I have for myself to have much to do with powerlessness, just by the nature of me not wanting to be powerless. Right. So that's, so I feel like that's the part of the thing. I feel like I can always understand these things. I can always tell the stories that I have, tells a story of who I am through language of like having power as opposed to not having power. And I feel like that is always, yeah. So I feel like that's why I feel like, well, to think about myself as a press person doesn't really suit me personally, but I understand systematically that is true. But, and it's not like I am in a situation where I'd be like, well, I wasn't. Cause I'm like, well, systematically, absolutely. And in some personal situations, yes, absolutely, someone was kind of a dick to me. Someone wasn't nice to me. So it's like, we're like, there's some situations that shouldn't be unsafe for me, but they aren't unsafe for me, right? Like I have a, I have a song I sing whenever I'm walking around New York. That's something, I forget what the tune is that I made up, but I know the lyrics is, I don't wanna get hate crammed on and I'll just sing it. Walking around New York, just being, I don't wanna get hate crammed on just so that like I, just so that I can like enjoy it, like I can enjoy that feeling. I don't think it's as wild as, really I haven't felt that unsafe in New York, living in New York, but I assume there are some parts of the country as in the United States that I think people are feeling very unsafe. But anyway, that's the song that I say. I don't know why I told you that, but. That is incredible. Thank you for sharing. I wish I remembered the tune. I like saying it a couple of times and I forgot the tune, but I know what the lyrics were, which is, oh, I'm done. Starting tomorrow, I'll be like walking around, sing that exact song, think about the rest of the lyrics. You can make up the tune and then you can tell me how it goes, you know? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. I, right now I'm just like thinking about it. I like, I grew up in China until I was 15. And I maybe thinking about it, it is like a bit, I don't know, generational because I heard different answers from different people. But anyway, but yeah. And something that I, a question that I want to pop, Essaline, I guess for a lot of the young directors and writers in this virtual room that also coming from me, that I am a director, producer, dramaturg, which is a weird combination of disciplines. And I also write and devise work. And I guess, what is your relationship with your directors when you develop work? And I guess more even going back to the thing that we were just touching a little bit on, I guess, how do you hold authority and own like honesty and authenticity in those elements in your play from everyone else who would have a say on this production process? I think that that is something that, I think that you want to get out of a process, what one puts in. So it's really a matter of like, well, how much do you care about that thing, right? How much do you care about the product that you're working on? How much do you care about that choice? And how much are you willing to fight for that? How much are you not willing to fight for that? And I think that every step of the way, it is, I think sometimes hard. And I think that it was a little harder when I was younger of just feeling like it is every single thing that you're fighting for is something that's personal. But actually, everybody's sort of there. You know, like theater doesn't pay well enough for people to be there wanting to just like do a job. Everybody's here because they love it. Or like everybody's here because they at least love some aspects of the work that they do. So when a lighting designer is saying like, wants to make a choice that you really think is like a very bad choice. And then you have disagreements. I feel like it's always helpful when you remember that the lighting designer wants to make the best work also, right? So it's like, you're all sort of in it together. So in that case, the arguments don't or like the conversations don't have to get personal. I do think that I talk about relationship between a playwright and a director as a marriage because it's very much a partnership where you are, so some of the, and I think it doesn't matter how much older the actors are or something like that. Because in our case, you know, like I was like what, when we first started working on this, I was like 28. And then my director was like, you know, I think she was like, you know, 24, right? So we're like, we were young. And then all our actresses, our main characters were older women. So like, even in that situation, I feel like it sort of operates like a very nuclear family. As in like, you know, like the director and the director and the playwright are like the parents and then the actors are like the children. So if the parents are fighting, the children know, right? Or like the parents are having a really good day, the kids know, right? And depending on that, the actors will like sometimes like act out to release tension. Like so it's sort of does work in the dynamic of a family. It's not forever like family because it's families forever. But I feel like it's not quite like that. So you know that there is an end to the family or like the end to the process. But so, and I found out like the miscommunications in, like I think basically like what makes me hard to be married to are the things that makes me hard to be a director to my place. Do you know what I mean? And then what makes it awesome to be married to me? Like what's so amazing about being married to me is also the ways in which that it's a pleasure to work with me, you know what I mean? Exactly. And that's just been my experience that like it does feel like because it is very much a partnership in that way. And yeah, and then you two are leading the room too, right? So you set the tone for the whole thing. And so your relationship actually is crucial to the whole process. Of course, that's not how everybody's relationship to their directors is. Some directors, like my professor at Columbia, he used to say like, I don't go to any rehearsal. You know, I don't go to any rehearsal, I just show up at an opening night. That's the only thing I do, right? So, and I'm like, well, some people can do that. And there's some people who is like, I cannot, I have to be in the room all the time, right? I cannot like leave the room for even a second. I think I am like half in between, you know, like, yeah. I feel like one used to be able to trust one's partner to be in the room without you. But also, you know, you should be there for some of the decisions. So that like, you know that on opening night, you're not seeing the show and it's like, oh, this is not the show I wrote, right? Yeah. Totally, yes. I mean, venting about what I think, but yes. No, I like 100% agree. Cause I like, I personally came up with the exact same metaphor. I think the relationship between playwright and director should be like a marriage. And I sort of, it's funny cause I came up with that metaphor while I spent my summer at the O'Neill. Yeah. And yeah, I all came together and I was, it's very validating to hear that from you. Cause I've been holding on to that metaphor and I've been telling that to everybody. And that's like a wonderful collaboration like mindset to have. Yeah. I think that I think it gets, I don't think it's all, can't even sunshine though. Like I feel like it is supposed to be a little hard like a real marriage. Cause otherwise then like, you know, like how can you call that a partnership? And it's not gonna actually collaboration. And if so, you should just direct your own work, you know, like if you don't want to treat it like it's that intensive relationship or that kind of partnership, I think that just direct your own work or you know, or you have to find somebody who you can be that way with. I've never had a relationship with the director where like we wouldn't talk about real things, you know, about the work. I got you. Yes. Yeah. So I guess that was like my burning question for you. So I guess today I'm really excited about this conversation because Max is about, at least he planned to stretch his wings and head into New York theater scene. And I believe soon we will see Night Watch in production. I'm really excited for that. And I know Max has a bunch of questions for Celine about everything being a writer. So I guess I'm just gonna turn it over to Max for whatever question you have for Celine. I don't know, this feels like a fan meeting. Oh, it's very nice, you guys. Okay, go ahead. It's okay with me just because you guys are all 22. So I'm like, oh, I'm fine. It's like, that's fine. I've just been around long, you know? So I've been around a block for a long time. Okay, I'm staring at my phone, my phone memo that says questions for Celine. But I guess like, yeah, I guess these are like, kind of like writer questions. Cause like still like, I'm still just like, like when I'm writing, and then I still don't really know what I'm doing. But I feel like a lot of people still say that. But I guess for me, it's like, I still need to figure out like how to like, cause like, it's just weird pressure. Cause now that I kind of like want to support, now I'm like calling myself like a professional writer or whatever that really means. But I feel like I need to be like, you know, more of a better writer. But I guess one of the things I'm thinking about is that like, how do you like get yourself into, into like the focus of one play? Cause like right now I'm like, I'm still writing stuff, but when I wrote Night Watch, that was like intense, like extreme intense, like wake up every day, like, you know, writing it, working on it. But now I, like now that I graduate college and there's no real structure to my life, like I have stuff that I'm working on, but I can't get back into that focus. I'm just kind of like, I always like move between these different, like, you know, aid different projects. And I kind of like, you know, do a little bit there, do a little bit there, but like nothing ever really gets finished. And I don't know if you like know, like how to get into that kind of mindset. Like, you know, I am now doing this play. Like, I guess there's a difference between I am working on this play and I am like wrestling with this play. When I was like with Night Watch, I was like, I was like wrestling with it. That was like extreme emotions. But now with the other people that I'm writing, it's just like, you know, oh, I'm, you know, I'm, I'm working on it. I'm like, I'm, you know, I'm casually doing something, casually typing. Totally. I think, I think that, I think that that is sort of like a state that your one is going to be in for a long time until you find something that you're gonna feel that way about, right? Cause then I totally get the situation where you're like, you win this award and it's like, oh shit, what am I gonna do now? Right? Cause I feel like, I think that is like a very, I think that can be a very real thing. Cause I mean, I'm sure when you wrote it, you didn't write it thinking that like I wrote, I'm gonna write this and then I'm going to win this award. You didn't have expectations, right? And I think that like, having, I feel like having expectations hasn't ever worked for me for me to get into a place where I'm wrestling with the play just because I am, you know what I mean? That's the kind of neurotic person I am. So if I think about anything outside of the thing that I'm working on, then I just like can't actually write the thing. So it, but I feel like the other thing that's also very real is that like, I feel like my whole life is just procrastination, right? Like I just like don't write or like a half write for like months. And then like one week I'll be like, shit, I think I'm in something. And then you don't do anything for like the next month, just like doing the thing. So I don't know. I feel like there's such a, you know how like we all sort of grow up thinking that we want to be good students who like do our homework on time and then you know what I mean? Like we want to get a certain grade and like we want everybody and then that's how we all raise, right? We all like, and I think it's definitely like, you know, like any family that has like education as a very important value, right? And then which happens to be a lot of Asian-Americans or like Asian, though. So I feel like, but I feel like you can say that about any family that actually cares about their children's like academic excellence, right? So, but because of that, I feel like, even if you're not, even if you're a bad student, but you know what it is like to get an A because since you're very, very young, you get evaluated and you get, you receive a value for your presence in class by a number or like by a rating, which, so because of that, I feel like it is very easy to fall into the trap even now that we are literally artists, literally freelance artists to be like, I did great work today because I sat in front of my laptop and I wrote five pages, right? Or like be like, I've been very bad today because I didn't do anything and watch TV, you know? So I feel like there is a kind of desire to be, treat like writing as kind of like homework. And it's like always about like, how well did you do your homework? I don't know. But I think that at the end of the day, it's gonna happen when it's going to happen. And it's like, I think that it's almost knowing when it is happening. That is more important than to be super stressed out about working every day or something. I don't know, it just sounds like you're at a place where if you're like dabbling in things, like one of these days, one of those things that you're dabbling on is gonna like slap you in the face. And they'll be like, okay, Max, now it's just me. You know, you just don't know yet. You know, it's just me not have happened. Yeah, yeah. No, but you're saying like, no to talk about like being a student, like I do actually think of that, like that way. I remember I can call it, I remember used to think, like if I don't write every single day, I'm like a bad writer or like I shouldn't be a real writer. That was like extremely toxic, holy shit. But yeah, and in a way, yeah, I do kind of think myself as like a bad student. Cause like, yeah, there are days where just, or even like a week where I don't do anything. And I'm like, bad Max, why do you do this? Bad Max. Like no food for you today. And I'm like, and I kind of think it's like, oh my God, it's just this weird fight. I'm talking with myself. And then people are like, oh, how are you doing Max? And I'm like, oh, you know, the usual, the usual, just, you know, you know, I'm just talking to myself, punishing myself and then congratulating myself, like, you know, over and over again, just back and forth cycle, like all the time in my head. Right. I mean, well, I feel like it's like the thing about, like when we're talking about like all these ratings and things like that, like these are capitalist things. Right. What's going on is, is like they're some kind of erasure of like human beings being equal and worthy of things is sort of like really fucked with when you're talking about like giving somebody an A. An A student is valued better than others. If you get paid a certain amount of money at your job, you are just valued higher than others. That's just how capitalism works. And we live in one. So because of that, I feel like we are like the thing that sort of makes UMAC seem like you're a great writer or a successful writer or like a real professional, something like that, that has to do with in the eyes of capitalism, how much money you want in the award, right? Or like how many people apply to that, how you beat them. Right. There's so much conversations about that. But then I feel like the thing about art or a thing about especially something like theater, which is like has a very distant relationship with capitalism usually. I feel like it's the truth about like any sort of art is that like you just can't, you have to somehow exist outside of capitalism, just at least in the making of it. Eventually it's gonna be put into the market and then, you know, hopefully all these people can't pay money to see your show, whatever. And then people are gonna do all this capitalist things around it. But at the moment that we're sitting in, we are all sitting in front of a laptop like writing the thing, writing the thing that we, that's like, you know how you said you're wrestling with your play, like something that you're wrestling with, at that moment somehow magically, even if you're talking about capitalism in your play, you have to like sort of exist outside of it, right? Because we just can't let capitalism dictate what we do. We can't. But for like most people in the world, the thing that is exciting about your work is what it got. But for fellow artists, what's gonna be exciting about your work is how, what it feels like or what it is like. And honestly for your audience too, who care about art at all. Like your audience is gonna come and see your work and then like are gonna be pretty honest about whether they're gonna be moved by it or not. And they're gonna be moved if you have wrestled well. You know, they're here for a gladiator fight of you like, you know, like trying to like, you know, choke the thing. And then they're only gonna cheer if you have done it, you have done it well and you have done it, you know, with your whole being and it was a good fight. Then everybody will be like, Max, you know, but I don't, but I feel like, I don't know, I feel like the, but then you're gonna ask capitalism. Capitalism gonna be like, well, how much money did you win, Max? You know, how many people applied, right? Did you get it or did you not? Did you win? Did you not win? Which is like both like very legit and very real because it does change your reality, like your material reality. But I also think that it doesn't actually matter when it comes to the thing that it was supposed to be about, which is that like people connected with it. Which by the way, people who chose your play, they fucking connected with your thing. I don't think that they would have chosen your play if they didn't fucking connect with it, right? They were like, oh, Max is fucking wrestling like a fucking champion here. So we fucking love it. So we think he should get it. So I feel like, I don't know. I think that's really real, you know? I think that's more real than the money, even though in practical ways, money is, you know, super real. Yeah, money is very real. Money is very real, you know? Yeah. No, yeah. Thank you for that whole talk on, you know? No, honestly, that was great. Yeah, cause I do kind of feel it that way. Like in a way, like I am very grateful for this award, but in a way, like they were kind of after that winning that now kind of think everything at more like monetary values or like more just kind of concrete goals or I think like, no, oh, like it is going to be like, well, people want to produce this. Well, this can just be made to a TV show. Like, you know, like how many people will like care about this kind of thing or whatever. When like before I was writing it in college, like I didn't really care about, you know, like, like literally the first, the opening night that I stayed reading, I think about three people came. And I mean, I was just like, ah, whatever. Like, I don't like, I'm doing it just cause I'm just going to do it. Like I don't give a shit. Like, and yeah, in a way, I think, yeah, it is comforting to know that like somehow I can like, yeah, it will, I just is the way I just have to figure out myself, like, you know how to just like kind of like, kind of like let go of these kinds of expectations and it's kind of like pressure of like, you know to be better of like being this like really good student and just kind of like be this more myself. I don't know why, but you're, when you talk about capitalism, it reminded me of this. I don't know why I'm going to bring this up, but it's just really stupid to me about like, you know, NaNoRemo, the November, you write like all, you write like a novel. Oh yeah, yeah. Yeah, there's like NaNoRemo, I tend to go finding it good, but it's always, I remember just the mean words, like NaNoRemo is like, you know, supporting capitalist values, cause like, you know, whoever wins, like wins like, if you write the most amount of words in November, you win. But instead, you should have a writing group which promotes socialist values, so everyone working together and sharing your work. But that's what I'm reminded of, yeah. Yeah. I love somebody that you do. Totally, yeah. Yeah, not that like, you know, you, we shouldn't make money for what we do, you know what I mean? But I feel like, yeah, cause I feel like to pretend like we're not living in capitalist ways or systems or we have capitalist interests seems wrong. But when, I feel like I think we're talking about exclusively when the actual making of the thing happens, which like actually does have to exist, you know? Like I was out of it. But at the end of, but in the ones that's done, it's like, yeah. I think a lot of I'm saying is like, certainly, I feel like no one should do, you know, unpaid work, you know what I mean? Unless it's honestly just for yourself. Cause I mean, sometimes I'll just do unpaid work just because I'm like, I really want it to happen or something. And I think that's just, but I feel like that can sort of coexist with you being like, no, I should be paid for that. If we're have a sort of like a very open dialogue with the fact that we are sort of weird parts of otherwise very firm structure that capitalism is. I think what I mean is like, we don't really fit very well. Like I feel I'm talking about like artists, freelance artists. We don't really fit very well because we don't go to a job nine to five. We don't have a boss, but right? So we're kind of not that different than a bum, right? So we're sort of like, we hope we can make a living, but we don't know. We don't know until someone tells you like, yeah, you can make a living. I'll buy your ticket, you know, yeah. Like until that happens, we don't know. Also that's not necessarily fair. Like it's not like if you go to Harvard, you can get a certain kind of job, right? It's like you get a Harvard for law school, you can get a certain kind of job. I think that's something where you can sort of like, if you go to like great medical school and then you can probably get a good job at a certain place or like, you know what I mean? Like there's some path that you can sort of be like, well, that is, there's something linear about that compared to I feel like the arts. It's like, well, you know, Van Gogh died without having sold a single painting. You know? I don't know. I don't, I don't know. That's such a boring example, but you know what I mean? You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, totally. I know that. I like completely lost in the train of thoughts because I thought like that just like opened up the whole world for me. But yes, thank you for that. That was really it. Yeah. Oh, Max, did you have more things? Yeah, I thought that was something to talk about. Oh, yeah. Something to talk about. Yeah. Yeah, actually that was like, that was like my main thing. I guess like my other, like the other thing would just be like, I mean, I feel like I already know what you're probably gonna say, but it's like, it's like, what do you think I should be doing right now? Because like, yes, tell me what to do. But no, it's more just like, it's more just like, because I was originally gonna go to New York in April to have like these kind of meetings. That, yeah, these kind of meetings, but now it's not gonna have, it's kind of cut short and I'm kind of having some meetings online, which is good. But I kind of had, I remember like, I remember I had this kind of like vision and I was like, actually my plan was, I was gonna stay in Shanghai for two years, unless I want something like really, really big. And then I wasn't gonna be really big about like a month after I was like, oh shit. Yeah, yeah. But I guess I always had this kind of like dream or just kind of like, I mean, I've never been to New York and I have to kind of fancy it like, I moved to New York, I'm just gonna move there and I'm gonna like become, I'm going to become a barista. I'm going to become a bartender and I'm going to like suffer, but it'll be great and it'll be amazing. And that's kind of what I imagined will be happening. But the more and more I kind of think, it's like, I don't like, do I necessarily need to be in New York unless there's like a production going on? Or like, I mean, I guess I, yeah, I don't know. I guess it's because I, I do still want to move to New York, but I don't really know like, is it like, we'll move into New York, like change my life just like, because in the end of the day, to write what you need is like, you know, paper and a pen basically, right? Um, if you want to be in theater, you have to move to New York. Unfortunately, you know, I think, I think there's just no, I found that there has not been no way around it. And I'm just speaking from the experience so far, who knows what's going to happen in the future. Now it's like, you know, Broadway shuttered and theater life being so uncertain in New York. But even then I feel like if you're interested in theater, and it's very interesting and also just being like an author, like authory writer, right? I feel like you just have to move to New York, because, and I just, I have friends who like didn't, you know, or like, I have friends who like left. What happens is when you come back to New York at one point, which they have to do, if they want to continue their life as like a theater artist of any kind, you, I think you just end up having to start from scratch, you know, because it's like, and I think there's a reason why it's like not nice to live in New York. Like New York is not a nice place to live unless you're very wealthy. Like unless you're like, Taylor Swift wealthy, like it's like, like you're like not, maybe like a little less rich than that. But I feel like, unless you have like a great trust fund and then you like your parents' family, like, your parents like has a loft in Tribeca or something, like unless you are like lucky enough to be so wealthy or like so connected to New York, it's not fun. Most people just like have day jobs and then like, you know, barely pay rent that is way too high and you know, yeah, it's a nightmare to live in New York, but there's a reason why everybody does. It's because theater happens here in a way that I don't think that it is, it exists elsewhere. Maybe the only other place that I can imagine living as a theater person is like London. I feel like it's truly like either London or New York. Yeah, I feel like it can be a novelist elsewhere, you know, like it can be like a poet elsewhere. I really don't think it's possible because a big part of like New York theater scene is that like we all know each other, right? We go to each other's shows and we see so much and we are like, you know, we have beer with people in theater. That's like a whole, that's the whole thing. We're all in the room all the time. Like, you know, like I feel like I so rarely go see shows that my friends made, what I don't know, like truly like five people in the audience that are also theater makers or like someone who I've seen before, someone I know who just goes to see theater. So it's really sceney is what I'm saying. But it's like, it's very much a scene. So because it doesn't seem, the nature of scenes is that like, it really does come down to who's there. You know, like I lived in New York all of my life as a playwright. And truly the sort of the year that I lived in LA because of a TV thing, I came back to New York and it was like, I needed to do catch up. Like I needed to like, I was like, oh, I'm like, I don't know anybody now. Like, I was like, what? I don't know what's happening anywhere. So it's just really crazy for like, I wish that I could say like, no, you can do this elsewhere. Cause I mean like, I wish that could be an answer, but I don't think when it comes to theater, that's possible. I mean, I think, by the way, you can do Chicago, but like truly like so many people from Chicago playwrights actors, they all eventually move to New York and they have to start from scratch. Like they show up and then they're like, hey, I'm a really famous actor in Chicago or like I'm a really big playwright in Chicago. And they're like, welcome, take a number. You know, like take a number. You and, you know, like there's a line, you know, get to the back of the line. So anyway, that's the realest thing I can say about living in New York. What I'm saying is just moved to New York and just like, you know, see how it goes, you know? Yeah. Make friends and like, you just be like, oh, New York city. But this is just based on experience so far. Everybody's saying that theater is gonna change dramatically after COVID. I don't know. I think it's gonna go back to the way it was because I don't know. These buildings are still here. People are still here. Yeah, I guess, then guys, if you, like what did you do when you first like moved to New York? Like how did it change you? I think it changed me a lot. So when you say changed me, do you mean like practical things or do you mean like emotional, psychological things? Yeah, I guess like emotional or does like how you feel as an artist? I think the thing that's very real about moving to New York that I think is really great is that you moved to New York and then you're like, you live in your little town or you live in your little circles and places outside of New York. And then we think like, well, I'm the best writer in the world, right? Like you go like, I'm the best actor in the world. I'm the best director because usually people who are actually make this move and like live this horrifying life of being a New Yorker just in terms of like life quality, quality of life. Yeah, so most of us we moved to New York because we're like, we believe that we can make it, right? So we all go to New York being like, we're gonna make it. Like we're gonna make it because I was the best in my high school. I was the best in college. Like I was, there wasn't a better writer than me. So of course I'm gonna make it in New York. So that's why I moved to New York. And then you go there and then the entire population of New York are full of people for whom that they were the best in high school at the thing that they're doing now, right? So it's so humbling and it's so wonderful to just sort of know that, right? To know that like, I don't know. I feel like you show up here and then you're just like, actually like, everybody's like, everybody's here because they believe that they're going to kill it, you know? And that is both an amazing environment to be in because you're like, I never, I just not, I don't think I feel the same as I do in New York anywhere else because I just know that even just like walking down the street that like everybody's walking around like they're sharks. You know what I mean? Like it's a shark tank. So we're all like, no, but it's like out there. You know, we've been like, we're gonna win everything. We're gonna get everything, we're gonna be rich. You know, like everybody's like that, you know? So that is like a very specific environment. So I feel like in that situation, I just found the experience of living in New York to be tremendously like humbling and only really good for my work, right? Because I'm never, I'm never chill. You know, I'm never like, that was pretty good. You know, I'm always like, is it better than everything else? And it's just, I feel like it pushes you, yeah. And in the arts, you need something like that, you know? I think if you're gonna be like a lawyer, it's just live in a place where you can have a better quality of living. But like in many, it comes to the arts, you need, I feel like I found that it's helpful when the world that you live in is like not gonna take mediocrity or like bullshit for an answer. Yeah, hopefully that's helpful, yeah. No, no, it is very helpful. Cool. Like what did you do specifically like when you got there? Like I guess it's almost like, do I just go there and then I'm like, hello? Hi, I'm Mack. I think I'm super cool. Time to get a few circles. Well, I mean, you have an amazing thing which is that you won this award. Like that is like, I think that is something that a lot of people move to New York without. So I feel like you can just like strike it while it's hot. I think you should move to New York and then you should just be like, hi, just say, hi, hi. That's the thing I did. And then, but then it comes to like literally practical thing. I think it's just a matter of, I think it's just like, you know, we all get a day job for a bit. I mean, I lived in, I was first, I moved here as a student. So that's what I did for the first few years here. And then I, you know, yeah. And then you just like sort of piece it together. It is, I mean, it is lucky because my parents are freelance artists. So they know, they know sort of what it is like to be a freelance artist. So like, I have both their emotional and like material support. So that's very helpful. And I mean, someone asked me like, it's like, what are you supposed to do when the first few years in New York? My answer is always like, if you have a trust fund, like thank your parents, like, you know, if you can get a good day job because of your amazing education or something, like thank the university that you went to, you know? Like, I think it's like, I think it's supposed, I think it's just, I think it's just, that's what it is. I think there's a reason why a lot of theater directors are very wealthy, you know? A lot of theater directors come from a lot of wealth. The part of it is that like, it's really hard to sort of like make it as a theater artist, just because you have to be able to live in your for a long enough time for you to like have your break, you know? We just think it's very real, yeah. Yeah, I guess, Max, do you have like a follow up question? Oh, no, no, no, based on that I think it's really helpful honestly. Yeah, that's like, isn't that an awesome wake up call on the end of the morning? Yeah, I don't know how, yeah it is. Right? Yeah, I want to touch on a little bit, because Celine said you moved to New York as a student and got your MFA from Columbia. And there was this conversation on Twitter a while ago for about whether you should get an MFA program, MFA degree in playwriting. And I really wanted to hear your thoughts on this. How do you feel like your MFA program prepared you? And I guess what are some of your strategies coming out of a degree program and continue to have like being a good amount of work? Yeah, I guess you're asking like what getting a grad degree was like, is that what you're asking? Well, I guess sort of the cost and value value. Of the grad school program? Of MFA program in playwriting, yeah. Totally, I mean, I sort of, I'm Canadian, so it was just like one of the ways to like get to New York. But that's really what it was like for me. I think you just get whatever you want, you just get out of things like what you want to get out of things. I mean, I can only speak for Columbia of a certain years. Like I went to school at Columbia 2012 before David Henry Wong was teaching there. So I studied with like Chuck Me. So that's like a very different. I don't know if there's, I feel like I don't think that having an MFA is important or I don't think it has mattered very much. For me, it was very much a way to get into New York and also, because I could have get a student visa, right? And on top of that, I can also like have a community in New York that I wouldn't have otherwise. I just didn't have to know anybody in New York. So it was like, you know, but the one thing is just like I'm seeing in the chat here that like Susan was messaging Max about how Chris Chen doesn't live in New York. He lives in San Francisco and says that he flies in Europe with productions or meetings. So that's another perspective. You know, some people think that you can do outside of there, which I think is like not untrue, but also I wanna know, I wonder when Chris, I don't know Chris personally, but I wonder when Chris actually moved out to San Francisco too. Cause I feel like I wonder, I don't know, it just feels like emerging, being a emerging playwright, I side of there feels untenable, but that's just my experience and my friend's experience. Which doesn't speak for anything. Oh, and Ariel also says, there are ways to create here without trust fund. Yes, definitely there is. It is just harder because you'll have to have multiple jobs. Yeah. I worked as a matchmaker for six months. I make this, it was very fun. Sorry for another time. Yeah. Yeah. Were there a time like, I guess in your writing career I guess, how do I frame this? How did your attitude toward a career in writing changed throughout the years that you've been out of college? I think that one year out of college is the hardest year of your life as a freelance artist because I feel like you are a freelance artist and it feels like you are absolutely nobody. So it's just, yeah, I mean, I think it changes just in terms of like, when things aren't, if things aren't, when things are going well or like when there's an ebb and flow to your work because it's not a consistent like 300 days a year kind of job because, you know, and there's some years you win an award and there's some years you don't, some years you get to have a production, some years you don't. I feel like the attitude changes so that like you can get through those years just based on what you want for your soul, so that you can make it to the years where you do have an award or you do have a production or something like that. So it's like, it really is an endurance thing. So I feel like, but I think it's really hard to accept that when you first get out of college because when you first get out of college you're like, welcome world, like welcome me world. I'm gonna be the, I am the exception to the rule. Everybody says it's hard to live in New York. Everyone says it's hard to make it as a professional playwright. Welcome, Sling Song is here. She's a genius, so she's gonna make it, right? So you have that attitude. So that's, so I feel like the first year out of college or the first year out of, the first year of being a professional writer is hard because you have to quickly get that idea out of your head that like you're entitled to something just because you're good, you know? And the thing is, it's like, yeah, just because there's so many people that are good that are working on having a career together, right? So it's like for you to be like, well, but I'm like, I'm so good that I'm gonna be the exception to the rule. I feel like that's the thing that one ends up needing to sort of put in the garbage and rebuild the healthy attitudes, which is more like, well, how, you know, whether you can make a living on it or not, like what are you gonna write? Yeah, yeah. That whole answer just like gave me chills. I'm just, I'm glad, you know? And I imagine like how many like people are watching this life would be like having chills from that answer. But that's great. Yeah, thank you. I wanna take a few questions from our Q&A section. And this is actually a question for you, Max. It says, I wanna be an English teacher in another country as well. And I also want to write plays somehow at the same time. How have you found a balance and what has that experience been like for you? Okay, so literally I graduate college and like, I remember like, I like, literally I finished college by like doing that stage reading of my play Night Watch. And then, oh yeah, then like literally after that happened, my professor was like, oh, hey, Max, can you like, I know you don't submit the thing, but you should like start doing that. Here's the red land list, please submit. I've never submitted stuff before or stuff like that. He's like, he's like, do it. And I'm like, oh yeah, sure, blah, blah, blah. And then I graduated. And then I'm like, and I'm like, hey classmates, fellow, fellow classmates, what are you guys doing? He's like, we're gonna be a star above. So I'm like, cool, nice, you. Oh, waiter. Oh, I see. I see, because they're all in LA. And then I'm like, hmm, okay, well, how about I just go teach English in China? How about that? I mean, because like the first reason is because like, yeah, like I have a BA in theater, which as you know, it's an extremely lucrative degree, I think. But I think it's like, because it was also like getting like teaching English in China was like, you just need a degree and like in anything. And can you speak English? And like, yes, I believe so. So I went to China and yeah, I like teaching English in that like it, at least for me, I was very lucky in that like, I only teach like, I teach mostly the weekends and then have like the weekdays like, yeah, to write. So I've like, it's like pretty good. It depends on mostly what kind of school you go to. If you go to like an actual like elementary school or go to like a more like a training center, like a tutoring center. I work more at a tutoring center. So like I said, I have like most of the weekdays to write. I will say if you're teaching in China, it's like, if something they're sketchy, something they're hella sketch, like, you know, like abusing foreigners, like, you know, like abusing the fact that I can't read Chinese or whatever. Or like, I'm almost just very lucky that I could get a job teaching English because of my face. Cause I'm, I mean, I'm Chinese blood. I'm like, usually English teachers are like, well, they want white or just like non-Chinese. So I'm very lucky to have like gotten it. But if you're white, it's like much, much easier to get paid higher. But I'm still very, very lucky that I could get a, like a relatively good English teaching job in which I get time and I, you know, with my face and my name too, because I'm about to change last name. So I'm lucky in that regard. And I will say there's some, there's some, there's some problems with it. Like, yeah, like some things are hella sketch. Like, yeah, I could go into the whole different thing, but like, yeah, something they're hella sketch. And that's kind of why I'll, another reason why I want to go leave China and go to New York. But yeah. Well, there, if you had a good SAT score, you, you can do, there are a lot of playwrights I know teach, like tutor, SATs. That's pretty good, yeah. Oh yeah, that's true. My husband did that for a bit. Just kidding. Yeah. There's also people who like, who just like help like with college applications here in China. And that's like also like a very lucrative, cause like these kinds of jobs is like, like in a way, like I guess like the kind of jobs like is you're trying to maximize, I guess the amount of money you can get, but also the amount of time you can have to write. Cause in the end, like, yeah, I'm still lucky in that like a lot of, I started several weekdays where it's like, all I have to do is write. And then, yeah, so I'm very lucky that I can have that. Yeah, definitely. I hope this is helpful for you. And wow, that's what an experience. I have a question for you, Celine, over here. What advice do you have to Asian creatives trying to make their own content? I think that, what do you think the other questions are about? Cause I'm like, well, I feel like the advice is just to make it and then see how it goes, right? Cause I feel like that's the best thing we can do. Mostly because I feel like we can't tell, we can't tell when you're making the thing, what's going to happen to it, right? It's like, yeah. So yeah, I feel like that's also a question that would be great for Max too. Cause I feel like Max, like, you know what I mean? Yeah, I don't know. I'm just like, maybe it's for both of us, yeah. Yeah, like creating content, I suppose. I mean, yeah, I mean, I most disagree with Celine. It's just like, yeah, you just do it. I mean, I guess the most ideal situation is you just do it because you want to do it, not because of some more external factor, you just do it, cause you want to do it. And of course, that's like, definitely when my, yeah, my best start has come from, like Night Watch, I wrote that cause I just wanted to do it. And I didn't really think about what other people will think of it. I just thought of like, okay, I'm going to do it. I'm going to give verse to this thing and I scream and it comes out at me and I'm like, okay, go out, go out into the world, baby. Have fun. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. I hope that was helpful. And lastly, just going to take one last question from our audiences. So thank you, Celine, for such a down-to-earth and honest commentary. I really appreciate your perspective on capitalism and the pressure to be constantly productive. Personally, I feel the pressure seems a lot from the career desire put me, put on me from my parents. Would you say your parents are different than the stereotypical Asian parents in that sense? Were they always supportive of your pursuit of art? I would definitely say that my parents are different than all the stereotypes about Asian parents, especially when it comes to the arts and living sort of like a freelance life, mostly because they are two people that are freelance artists. So I feel like I don't really have a personally, I don't really have a thought about like what to do in that situation because I feel like that's one of my many privileges as just for an artist, just being able to like talk to my parents about it, like just being able to talk to my mom about like what my career is like or like where I am at or like what I'm working on and then for my mom to understand. So I think that's one of the biggest, most impressive privileges that I have. So as a for how to navigate that, I don't really have a good thought for that because I just can't speak from experience of that. So I do think that they're different, but maybe Max, this is more helpful, but although Max has a good question after this too, sorry. Yeah, Max, I don't know what's up, I don't know what's going on with your parents. Oh, they're like very traditional Chinese parents. Yeah, I mean, I don't really have to say, they're very like, I guess like traditional Chinese parents, they don't want them to do theater. It was like, I was gonna major in psychology at some other college and I just applied to UCLA NYU as like on a whim. I never took art series until my last year of high school. I just like applied to them as like a joke, honestly. And then I got into both of them and I'm like, hello, father, mother. I got into this kind of like theater school and they're like, don't do that. And I'm like, but I'm 18 and I'm gonna do it. And they're like, don't, please son, don't. And I'm like, I'm gonna do it, I just did it. I'm like, God damn it, son, why do you do this to us? And I'm like, ha, that's basically my exchange. And now that I mean, now they're more too cool because it's been like, you know, several years now. And yeah, now they're a lot like, we don't really know what you do, but it's, you know, it's gotten you money actually. So I now have to support you. Yeah. Amazing. I was on exact same boat. I got you. My like, none of my parents understand a single thing that I do. I majored in psychology too. I was gonna say that. Yeah. You only apply, you didn't actually do it. Yeah. My first year in college, I also majored in psychology. So amazing. Yes. I see. I lied. There were like a bunch of questions popping up. And I just want to, I'm sorry that I can't get to all. I'm just gonna ask pop, one last question from ask, Max, cause this is kind of important. In Night Watch, there are Chinese characters that speaks, that speak to a level of understanding depending on one's ability to speak Chinese. So the characters then have to be translated. And you also mentioned writing for a wide audience. Can you talk about balancing these two ideas? Writing for an audience who the piece is not for and having to put in the work that you develop the understanding. That is a complex question, but I hope I can answer that. So yeah, my play has like Chinese characters in it. And yeah, there's no pinging, which is there's no romanticization. So there's no like alphabet. So that was like, I would thought about the position and like I haven't wasted that before cause usually you would romanticize it when you put in Chinese. But I just put in the actual characters. Like I guess first of like, I, I do want like, you know, people to like understand my play, like regardless like, you know, who you are, if you can speak Chinese or not. And it reminds me this one time I was in this writing workshop and I, there was this person who, well, he was, he was Native American and most of the play was written in the language you grew up speaking. None of us knew that language. And at the end of the workshop, and he had like, you know, he had to play all the characters cause he's the only one who could speak that language. And at the end of the workshop, I think, I think the professor was like, okay, this is great and all, but like, you know, no one understands this. And he's, and like, and he was telling it in the writer was like, I understand that like, clearly you guys understand that, but like, you know, some English translations, but, and I mean, it's kind of this kind of debate. Like, you know, is that okay? Like, you know, like what do you want? Like, like, what is this for? Like, you know, and then I was asking, you know, how's this going to fit into American theater? How are you going to like make it? And he was like, and then at which we all kind of agreed like, okay, well like, you know, in the end, like if you, it's more just a matter of like who your audience is. Like if you would like to write for that specific Native American tribe, then you congratulations, you have done it. Like, and that's, that's the space that needs to be filled. So, but I guess for me, like I did, like I did make sure in writing Night Watch. So like, if you can't read or change characters, you can, you can figure out through context of like what they're trying to say. Like it's not necessarily like needed to know what the changers are. And I'm sorry, I'm reading that. Okay, what was that? How do you think of that? What was the rest of that question? Of like, oh, how do I balance between like writing for like a white audience and writing for like those? I mean, I, yeah, I didn't really think about that. Like, I don't know if I was writing for it. I don't know if I was writing for like an Asian American audience. I was writing, I was writing for myself on. So I just, yeah, like the Chinese characters, I just put that in there. Cause like, I mean, it's based on my family and like my grandma talks to me in Chinese, but I can't obviously write it all in Chinese. So I have to put, you know, a lot of English in there. And I try to like, yeah, it's just how I, that's just how I feel about it. And then I obviously made sure that there were some trans characters. Like, I mean, yeah, if you speak two languages, you'll know that there are some words that can't be like translatable or there's some words that just like means a lot to me. And like it needs to be put in Chinese. And like you can, I'll like, I'll put the, I'll work around it to make sure that the audience can understand from context like what I'm saying. But yeah, I don't know how I balanced that. It's all about making sure that like the audience doesn't feel lost. I don't want the audience to be like extremely alienated. Like, you know, I don't want them to be like, you, I expect them to read Chinese. Like I totally don't expect that. Cause even I'm not completely literate in Chinese. Like I'm like, I actually need it. I need to help from other Chinese people. So I should like make sure my grammar was correct in what I said. So yeah. And I, I was just thinking about something in Edwins that this stage direction, and it's just like a privilege for people who read the script that there was a state directions that said, you're not supposed to understand, you're just supposed to listen. You know, it's like, when I read that, I was like, this is, yes, you just have to own it. You know, like, I was like, yes. And it's like that sometimes. It's like, there are things that you can't translate that you just, maybe we can work around it, but sometimes you just have to listen. Well, I feel like sometimes the, you can use the, it's every, every performance of that moment would be, there would be like truly like one person in the audience or like two people in the audience that are like cracking up. And then everybody in the audience would be like, I don't know what's happening. Can I laugh? Is it funny? I don't know. I don't speak Korean. So my thing is like, I, that's just something to do with like just like my life experience when like, you know, sometimes I can just talk crap about people in Korean because you know, like someone's like being like mean and mean to you or like being racist or something. And they can just be like, awful. You know, I can say, I mean, I say worse things, but I just say mean things about that person in Korean. So it's like, well, that's, I don't know. I just feel like, by the way, in my plate, they don't say anything mean about anybody. They're just having a conversation with their grandmother, but it's just like, I feel like the new thing is, you know, like being my friend or like living with me, like is that like, you're gonna just like have to like listen to me like loudly talk to my mom every day for like hours a day. Like I talked to my mom like once a day for like an hour, if not more. So I'm like, yeah, that's just something that you're gonna have to deal with if you love me, you know, that's, I'm just gonna do that. Yeah. So you're just gonna have to deal. So it's more like that. So yeah, so it's like, it's, I think that like, I'm not saying that like people are all gonna understand this or people are not all gonna understand this. I think that it's good that not everybody in the audience understands it and that some people do, which sounds like what exactly like Max is talking about. Like Max is like, yeah, you were like playing with that also. Yeah. There's like a definitely difference between like, how the foreign language is used in endless, the way it was used in night watch. Like the way I use it was more just like, I just like work around it, but in endless. Like, yeah, I love that, but we're just like, you're just gonna listen to this phone call. And I'm like, yes, I've done the same thing where, yeah, I've got, yeah, I like, I've done more, I've called my grandmother and I'm just, and no one really knows what I'm talking about, but I'm on the phone with my grandma. Yeah, totally. Yeah. Absolutely. So that's about the time that we have. Thank you so much for joining us today, Selena Max. It was truly remarkable to hear from you. And, you know, I wanna acknowledge that this is a weird and difficult time for us all because, so thank you so much for taking the time to be with us, answering our questions, and share your insights. It means a lot to a lot of people to be in conversation with you in this whole setting. And I wanna thank Heartland Theater Commons for live streaming this event. They're a free open platform for theater makers across the world. They're extremely helpful, resourceful for artists at all stages at their career. So next up in our trial at home series, we are hosting our conversation this Friday, also at 7 p.m. And we have Haosong Yan, who trained at Actor Studio at Pace University, and Li Fuwen, who was an actor of National Theater of China. And they will be comparing and contrasting acting system in acting training system in the U.S. and China. And that conversation will be in Mandarin Chinese. And next Wednesday, we will be talking to, I will be talking to Meng Tengwen, and she's the executive director of Ping Pong Arts about career as international producers and the role of art leaders in the community at this moment. So yeah, and thank you all again for joining us today. That was a long talk, but that was incredible, incredible. Like, me and Max were texting each other right before this. We were like, I'm so nervous. I'm so nervous, too. We're just talking. We're just talking. We're at home. Yeah. So best of luck on everything you do, we do. And I know, and just know that it's okay to not to write or do anything right now. And you are like a boss when you're ready. And to folks who are joining us on Zoom, how round of Facebook today? Stay safe, binge watch a lot of TV, reality TV. And donate to your favorite theaters. Don't request, take care of refund if you can. Drink a lot of water and positive vibes and love to you all wherever you are. Drink a lot of water. Drink a lot of water. Good advice. Jolly. So, thank you, and we will talk soon. All right, have a wonderful day, Max. Thank you. Thank you so much, Loni. Hope to meet you, Max. Yeah, nice to meet you too. Let's, yeah, okay. Yes. Bye. You're okay. Bye. Thank you, Celine. Bye.