 Mr. Carmichael. Morning Jerry. Good morning. How are you doing buddy? Okay It is dark these mornings. Is it not? It is Just a touch of light. I Believe we probably home directly across the top of the hills I believe we crossed past the crest of this hill or the depths of this valley in four days That sounds good. I always I always prefer the time of year where the days are getting longer Yeah, we have passed the point where the Sun is not setting any later, but it is rising later. Hmm Interesting little thing about the solstice where it the Sun It's a point where it stops setting later and continues to rise later So it sort of compresses from the morning because I always think of it I always thought of it as you know, the Sun setting later and later, but it doesn't work that way And that's because the Sun is now dipping over and under the flat horizon of the flat earth like faster, right? Exactly And it's and it's working the epicycles differently than Mars would for example Well, the 5g has completely thrown a spin into everything. So, you know and now with the vaccine, there's gonna be longer days That's what I hear. Yeah Yeah, that's good, I'm glad we got this call off to the right start Scott high-class morning Yeah, well, I mean one of the things that's really in the back of my head a lot a lot a lot these days and I had a Had a strange thought yesterday about it is how do we how do we deal with half the country being completely on a dangerous tangent? And I think I can confidently say that that is a dangerous tangent and that other realities are more real and more useful and not dangerous So I think that was a that's an easy one and the thought I had yesterday was how do we hack evangelical pastors? Because a big part of the problem is that somehow Evangelism has become a carrier of these memes and there are pastors who are preaching hard for Right now the overthrow of the government like the illegitimate of the etc etc like like I care less about 5g and anti-vaccine Well, the vaccine thing suddenly became so the vaccine thing suddenly became from misal measles might get bad too Oh, we might never get back to normal, right? Doug go ahead No, I would like to challenge the idea that half the country is going in a crazy direction Half as high for me. I wouldn't say half, but I would say It might be worse in the sense that the Democrat the Democrats as the professional class We're running the economy off the cliff anyway with a neo-liberal Approach that concentrates wealth and all that So that the the stupid half of the country is really just reacting to what the smart half of the country did Because the smart half of the country was running us into real trouble And I I did a series of videos about Trump and what to do about Trump and so forth and in them I say Trump is smarter than most people think he is and a lot of Trump supporters are not misogynist racist homophobic assholes they in fact are rejecting the status quo As you just said and then not in the videos because Biden was not the president-elect Not in the videos is a thought that I have in my brain, which I'll share right now Which is if Biden doesn't fix the things that are underlying and actually broken If he is if he is a return to the status quo ante, which is the Obama-Biden administrations We could very likely have backlash and have you know, Ibanca as president in 2024 So I'm I'm deeply concerned that we don't do enough No, that's the big discussion in the at the Sierra Club and in this forum Where you have no the sunrise movement in the home bunch of other groups participating and so their idea they're so disappointed about the appointment of the cabinet force for agriculture That's basically the same It's the same guy who was under Obama for right, right? Yeah, and so of course he is No, he's he comes from the industrial food system. He's all in favor of fertilizers and all the chemicals and so on and The so so the impetus is to fight you know fight against the nomination fight against this candidate and so on and I'm working really hard to to to change that message into Let's say what we are concerned about, you know, let's make a statement that one sixth of the American children Grow up food insecure and are standard in their in their growth and development for a lifetime Let's talk about tens of millions of people living in food deserts. Let's be specific And I think this is really the moment we have to be specific In in naming the things that aren't that are wrong So and before we go into our check out and check in round I lived in Barcelona for like nine months years ago I was in Barcelona when 9-11 happened and one of the things that happened one day was I was walking through one of the main squares And there was an older couple and they were both very tiny and they both had bow likes And they represented malnourished malnourishing that had happened in Spain because Spain had the triple bad luck of getting franco in 33 or something like that having the Spanish civil war Sort of sitting out the civil the the the world war two and then having franco for another 30 years or more and and that led to really really Twisted sorts of things and the younger generation of spaniards are like tall strapping people who who were like, you know Growing way taller than their parents and grandparents And then second thought which is on the forum, which I'm finally getting well acquainted with better acquainted with Rob asked a really good question, which is hey Building a regenerative food system is too broad for a quest. It doesn't have a time bound And so it feels to me like maybe and and I'm now thinking of one that might be too short but Could we have a quest to get a better secretary of agriculture? And could that quest require us or motivate us to connect with sunrise movement? Thunberg's organization a bunch of younger organizations and a bunch of other people To figure out what are the narratives? What are the multiple things needed to cause that shift because I I agree with what you just reported in As the disappointment of these movements for the appointment of the status quo because that's clearly the status quo coming back in Does that make sense? Yeah, I would I mean I'm inclined to assume good intentions Until otherwise You know because if we start out assuming bad intentions or bad intents then we're then we're in a fighting mode and we're Continuing the same mess then then maybe the quest is framed not as removal and replacement of an official but as Some kind of proof that the kind of movement we would like to see actually exists in the new administration And if not then the stimulation of that movement to replace the old script Yeah, I I think the positive messaging of the needs Is is the compelling story to to depoliticize as much as possible And just make this a primary focus of constructive action And put it forward to whomever's in the box And if they don't respond then you have all sorts of options of how you how you proceed That beginning with good intent Figuring out how to frame the most Explicit and yet not decades of paper long Position paper on something like that to get a start I like that. Um Well, should we Where we could pick a forum thread and start sort of framing this up But I I'm I'm in the process right now of describing some quests and getting us questing and and having quests be a thing We know how to do I'm going to post a A video But I did for the steering committee. Some of you have watched it It's just me with the post-its that are behind me right there. That was a great post-it notes Video Old school Miro And I I basically tried to describe what happens to quests and projects and roles and all of that and since then We've talked about a couple other roles that we need Like connectors and like Facilitators for forums and stuff like that So those should be roles that people can find out about as well Scott. Sorry. You've been patient Oh, that that's fine. I I think I'm still It relates. I think I'm back with your comment about hijacking evangelicals and I'm expanding Evangelical out to mean who Is being listened to with intent with with unquestioned Loyalty with with real Impact on people's thinking and how do you get into their heads because they already have the audience and I just think that that's It was a comment that you made that we haven't I think Deserves like try instead of trying to get your own audience Who's got the audience? And how do you influence them? It just seems like a high leverage activity that we could play in An example, I've heard some people who have been getting Republicans and Democrats together into small rooms any leaders And having those conversations and letting them work it out in a non public forum You know and and how do you get into those rooms? We're into those minds that already have audiences Um briefly before I go to ken So there's a whole bunch of thoughts in my brain about how kind of gingrich A lot of the current division in american congress and other and society go back to gingrich's revolution in 94 When he basically made sure that no republican would have a meal exercise or share a flat in dc with a democrat He basically broke all of the places and ways that they had moments To actually sit down and hear what each other thought and maybe make compromises or anything like that Then anybody who broke with message was not going to get funding for their primary And because of gerrymandering and the tea party and all those things Um, no republican was afraid of the general election. They were all afraid of the primaries And they needed that money for the primaries So So the right has been extremely good at maintaining message discipline as you can see with how few of them mcconnell Being a notable exception like, you know two days ago when he actually said, you know presents like biden We need to now do this but still still the vast majority republicans are on message with the far right And so there's that and there's there's five other threads that that you just provoked Which to me are part of the thing to try to work with toward and Judy you're right. I think positive framing and figuring out how this works is a good way to go My problem is I know too much. I know too much about how the sausage got made and it's my own story about how the sausage got made But I always feel like if you understand how that got made you have a better chance to undo it But that I may be wrong about that because you know They say positive action helps more can Well to go back to your original statement that dug challenged you on about half the country being on a dangerous track There's a linguist name of benjamin morphe and He's the first person I ever encountered who used the term insane as opposed to he said there's three kinds of people They're sane insane and insane And the unsane are people who they're they're Not stupid Um, you know, they are easily led these are these are the kind of people that the evangelicals are reaching so if we Think of them not as insane not as not as bad not as evil, but as easily led and Rather um superstitious Then what how would we design conversations and invite them into those conversations for learning as opposed to trying to change their minds, right? It's like they're very malleable under the right circumstances, but they're also very defended because they have an identity that Um, we need to make sure we're not threatening that identity So that's just a little thought that fostered my mind. Love that class the john Yeah, my my suggestion would be to just change the topic You know, this this conversation is so rammed into the crowns and they are the positions are so frozen in place And and I keep saying food is the ideal way to do that because It communicates on such a broad palette, you know, you can talk about Your personal health your resilience against disease and You can talk about climate change in in in various stark ways because There's clarity in science now that you can't fix climate change without fixing the horses now You know, this is the the united nations is focusing their summit on food systems design for 2021 The entire conversation is focused on food So by by by chiming into this and making this a story Now you be divert the attention away from all this conflict and Debates now and put it into something that a practical application in everybody's life So And to make things worse the sort of a darker angle on that A lot of people are in food distress right now way many more than before the pandemic started And december 26th a lot of the support goes away unless congress manages the passive thing At the end of the year a lot of the um rent abatement or non eviction laws go away So we're about to see this crisis get a bunch worse Um, so so the moment for helping on food is is now like this really this really works now go ahead john I uh, yeah, I would Support the idea of of shifting the subject slightly and this may be redundant. I came in late But because we're not into this group because I know dug and others and and you jerry have talked about The sort of tribal affiliation as dominating these other kind of content issue concerns So what that would suggest is if you're going to open the dialogue quote unquote the dialogue with somebody on the other side Where you want to go first is where are you getting support or or what support do you need or you know Something along those lines if I'm getting I've get support this way You know, is that a kind of support that you find helpful? And it's a it's a totally it's a tack. It's it's deliberately going 90 degrees off the issue but that's the whole point is that that That support if they're getting it or that lack of support if they're not is what's deeply at the core of the Stress and what we might code as unsane behavior And if they're jerry you probably have a link on this but there was a great interview with an x Nazi Okay, this is a young you probably know this one right and so it's a young white nationalist and he Did he was an outlier? He did belong to a gang. He was looking for you know, something like that He had no opinions about jews He had no opinions about a whole lot of things and he acquired all those opinions In order to be part of this group and then when he finally caught on you know What's going on about five years later? He got himself out and then how he now he's reflecting on how did that happen? Where did I get all those views? Anyhow, that's that's available. It's probably in your brain somewhere, right? So i'm going to show you a thought right now because i've i've got a small collection So i don't know which of these you might be talking about Uh, and there are i think there are many many stories like yeah, that's that's the thought that I have in my brain And it's connected to documentaries like white right Uh, yeah So it's maybe one of those. Hey Kevin So so I would love to frame up given where we've just gone uh a positively tilted kind of urgently motivated mission to figure out what ogm can do about that issue And and turn that into a quest And let's see who's interested in joining it and the quest can have its own set of calls and and get some you know Try to get some action on them and and i'm i'm very interested in quests having A lot of freedom of how to go about trying to do what they're trying to do right Maybe maybe the answer is to stimulate a meme of throwing foods very tiny food festivals Right, so a decade a decade ago. There was a very tiny meme that went around for What were they called seed bombing? And people would take some dirt and some seeds and make up a little hand grenade and they'd chuck it into an empty lot And flowers would spring up right and then there's been a little meme of urban farming and people converting Empty lots as cities got devastated and lots went unused into actually food producing lots and that's really interesting And maybe maybe there's a way now to create just shared food festivals where you do socially distanced you do you You secure Food sharing so people show up and start eating with you know with with you And that's that's there's nothing like breaking bread to open a conversation and just say okay What how do you normally get through it or something like that go ahead Doug? Okay, uh, what's interesting me in this conversation is how do we maintain a kind of backroom Conversation about what we really believe and what we think is going on In the context of a lot of quests that already have a platform so to speak and a goal and a way of working So it's it's like How do I have a think tank in the background as a resource to all the quests? Do you mean how to keep separate dark thoughts about things from a quest that should be framed positively? Or do you mean something different? well at the moment given the conversation what i'm thinking is that part of the political problem in the u.s. Is that the the trump supporters believe That things like science are rip off past the high-paid careers That's to that support The kids of the 10 percent or the 1 percent Going to college and getting on in life That the rest of the country is paying for And it's so unfair. They're not going to participate in reasonable conversations about things like welfare and food So it's that kind of conversation Uh, that I think is really important to have somewhere Within the open global mind context that's different than it's being a quest um, I will I will try to integrate that because it Because the waterfront on issues here is is broad and complicated And so we need we want to frame something up that that has a point to it that has a Focus that that sort of feels doable to it And and again the moment is is like right right now for for 15 different reasons. Go ahead class Yeah, but what my experience has been since I started working with NGOs about eight years ago now Um, there's so many efforts out there and they're all good But they're not coordinated and they lose their impact because they're shooting into all kinds of directions I mean, it's literally like hurting cats now and So if if that power can be bundled somewhat, you know and guided Not just guided into one general direction. It could have so much more impact Um, so you just gave me a funny idea Maybe we need to have a guild named cat shepherds And and I say that only half tongue and tick because One of the things I'm hope I I've hoped to do personally way before ogm and that I'm hoping ogm can do is this notion I call outreach or bridging Or connecting to other groups and doing a dna exchange and being helpful to them and all of that But also helping them connect with each other without losing their individual identities It's it's not that we all have to be I I think It's not that we all have to become one movement and then that one movement has so many people that it's overwhelming It's that these movements need to coordinate and use their resources well So that all these problems can get fixed in all the different ways that are happening And I don't know that it's ogm's role to have the best solution to all these things I think it's our role to help articulate And to help connect. It's uh, you know mark on twan loves, you know, ogm connects the connectors As a description of what we do and I think there's a lot of truth in that Um, it's sorry There's a lot of wishful truth in that because I don't think we're doing much of that yet But but it feels like the the cat herding and outreach and connecting role could be huge here because as you say curl There's a whole bunch of high functioning groups that aren't getting traction because they're not they're not It's not that they're not connected. They're not unified. Go ahead ken Well along with the cat shepherding, I just was thinking, you know, I read this book years ago and I occasionally reread it called Stocking the wild pendulum on the mechanics of consciousness by it's akben tov And he has these wonderful little drawings of the difference between incandescent light and laser light So incandescent light he has all these little soldiers Marching in different directions and he says for laser light. They all march in the same direction. So um, that made me think of laser pointing for for cat shepherding of how to Get all these cats to focus on that laser so we can get them moving in the same direction So what can we use as a laser pointer for our cats? And lasers work through collimation, which is basically the alignment of the light So that they're sort of in harmony which creates the power of laser I was in an interesting conversation this week. Yeah what was with the The lead for the innovations with the global leader for innovations at seaworks So so the interview was directed at him to talk about what are they working on Now what's coming out in this crazy time of change? And I inserted questions of are you focusing on workforce issues like income? No, employment training and so on wasn't even on this radar I told you not on this radar. Then I asked Are you aware of Act issues and agriculture the innovations that when you're talking all about energy Are you aware of agriculture seawork? No understanding? No knowledge even Even the group that interviewed him had no no real awareness now all so so So people who live in these corporations. I had never heard of a food desert Then I was working all my life in the food business. That's amazing after I retired, you know, and so I mean my whole point now is Here I was I was In a strategic position making decisions in the food system building, you know, the big food systems And I had no idea about nutrition impact of what we eat on agriculture and so on So there is a need to communicate now in in non-threatening ways In the edge in educational ways We assume these people know they don't they sit in these offices make decisions and they don't have the systems perspective of the impact of their decisions and the stories Are really fun like the stories of how this works and who figured it out and what happens to people who do go through it Or like totally fun and easy to tell and they're they're viral. They're Um, I one could call them one had a really big imagination retellable stories I'm just saying Kevin you wanted to jump in Yeah on bridging, you know, I'm My principal bridge group Is the group left leaning in Oambia, which is the port in Mississippi where my family's from and uh, you know It's both sort of uh, I don't want the expats and people who are still living there And the people who are still living there are starting to talk like I hear a lot of black Folks talk about how they're so tired and worn down, you know, when white folks want to know Uh, tell me what black experience is like or whatever and and they're they're they're feeling more afraid of violence and they're just feeling worn down as You know, they are a in the sense of persecuted minority who can't speak its name You know, they they're signaling to each other now they're in the Walmart. They realize oh, you're Of them, you know, there's just a little little kind of like as the jerry's group used to be When I would go to the tech conference. It's like oh, I could be human with these people I said it didn't have to do my tech shit, you know But it's being worn down and the the concept of Reaching out seems much less viable to all of them now They feel much more embattled and the folks who think the vaccine is a plot also thought the election was applied and I think, you know, the These are about to actually live around the folks who want to reach out to and they're they're retrenching and Feeling like they need to be bunkered and this group gives them a place, but they're There's just much more fear in the Trump areas Now because Violence is is rippling out in ways that they haven't seen before Yeah Yeah, um dug and then let's go to our check-in room Yeah, I'm gonna say Can you hear me in my unmuted? Yes, I am That a lot of these trump supporters have a background of Having lost out from the factory system when the factories closed down But if you go back a generation before that they were farmers who lost out And there was a very vigorous farm movement in the late 1800s with Brian and the cross of gold and all that sort of stuff That these people have in their background as an unconscious view of what's happening politically And I think it's really important to see that they're not that stupid When we think of the stupid people working in the factories They were immigrant poll from immigrants from places like pollen where they had been farmers And nobody built on that scale So I want to say that I think the trump supporters have hidden resources That they're holding back because they don't see any way to participate Where it would be them who might have the jobs in a better system Love that I love that framing and I I think it was Goddow and one of his books that basically says look at the civil war 80 percent of americans are farming and between the civil war and world war one There's this gigantic shift into factories gigantic shift into factories And that number goes down to 20 percent like that is not a long period of time 1964 the 1914 1864 to 1914 That's a very compressed moment and it tears up a whole bunch of societies tears up a bunch of cities and then manufacturing works until it doesn't and then manufacturing's sort of Kind of maybe the overblown death of manufacturing is really really bad for all these people But finding viable ways in okay class last last word on this and then we'll Yeah, so So this cycle that is happening now we went from agriculture into factories, right? So now we're going out of factories into nowhere So currently there are an estimated 10 million jobs that got eliminated this year They're gone and there is No one even thinking about Where are these people going to go and the the thing now is artificial intelligence is they're replacing white college jobs They're replacing higher paying jobs You know because I mean the insurance company banking finance They're all shedding jobs because automation can can Do it better faster. So that is a real dilemma that is also impacting The political tensions in the country. I completely agree and I've got a couple speeches I can point to on prezi where I where I basically say in the middle of the speech We are heading into the great unemployment And a lot of this is going to be automation unemployment and no and nobody's paying attention to that And a second thing showed up in my head Which is I just talked about the trend away from Agriculture and and then you said but all these manufacturing jobs are gone and so forth Can't we think of the production of food as manufacturing of food? Isn't farming a form of many and like if we went back to the land and figured out how to make food everywhere Aren't those sort of manufacturing jobs? Well the vision that that Many of us have in the in the food Reformation movement there Is a decentralized system Where you have local food production But then also local processing Because much of the waste in the system comes from having A factory sitting someplace And then from all over the country and overseas come in the tomatoes No to make this tomato sauce where the remember future shark The the the book that came out dancing in the 70s or 80s Alvin Topper and Heidi Topper Exactly and he hit his the the one thing that that stuck with me Was the high-tech high touch And what what he was arguing then is that the advance in in technology allows a miniaturization of factory processes You know that allow you to decentralize the entire system So you can have food very highly efficient food factories In a community that takes all the stuff off the field, you know that that would that now goes to waste And processes it the cancer because it salts it and so on so it takes absolutely I think that the first thing we want to make sure is that people have food sovereignty You know just to take the pressure off and and and allow people to call their own food process it and preserve it Doug will you jump again Yeah, I think it's not we don't want to go to a an industrial agricultural system I think we want to go more To a craft food system I'm agreeing with that. I'm just saying there's a way of calling it manufacturing that that that that might appeal I had a question about With the cluster sprouted something those figures that you posted about the move away from agriculture How much of a role did introducing mechanical devices into farming play a role in eliminating jobs? Yeah, and and There's a whole bunch of things that tumble out of out of that conversation um Let's do a check-in round pete welcome back um So let's go kevin judy john You're still muted kevin. Yeah, sorry Yeah, thanks, uh things are going well our community equity friends and family funding is finding people who want to either give to it or Give an invest to it and And we're looking to license it get it done today to chicago. There's this interesting System gap in an emergent system. There's a whole lot of different new cooperatives And there's new funds to fund cooperatives with revenue share. So you don't need an exit and Then there's a two or three emerging doing pretty well cooperative conglomerates, you know sort of Mondragon it at a modest scale. There's one here That rock is only another point to fund it and and there's one in in boston and um and there's some Some accelerators and stuff and there's a need for a An observer analyst because nobody's making sense of how the funds are different To tell them apart and and how they're and the same thing with the platforms and the conglomerates And so that's a role i've done before when i'm here I don't care about this So this is a piece of information infrastructure that the market is calling out for so i'm gonna write a blog about it And what i'm looking for it as you guys know of any young mba student who's a Pattern recognizer sense maker with a quant side There is a role here somebody could build a little consultancy kind of thing or something and it's you know The biggest there's enough happening that there is a role for a newsletter analyst Kind of thing that you can which is needed to build and make sense of this market as it grows If you guys know anybody who's in that role, i'm gonna write a blog to say this is the job description of i'm looking for somebody and I would just help advise it. So anyway I'm post that to the list when you're done with it and we'll At least take the tree because i like that idea a whole bunch Post it to the forum. Yeah Yeah, or somewhere. Yeah, I mean, you know markets form at in predictable ways and and this is the thing where there's enough innovation In enough different forms that it needs somebody wondering, you know a beat reporter with an analyst one So yeah, cool, uh, judy john p I like the idea that that we're starting to focus on some quests a lot um I'm still framing values with groups here in town around shared vision And trying to get to some shared vision so we can move to the quest phase So sorry shared vision on which part can you Oh, i'm i'm not working the agricultural angle right now in town. I'm working the educational perspective Sort of shifting from education to learning and including social consciousness and those topics And i'm working with a couple different groups Uh in terms of including that in our shared vision so that we can then become actionable Perfect. Thank you. And I think there's clearly an educational quest in here And I think part of this conversation and part of rob's question in the forum Leads me to say for quests How do we get more specific so that we have a sort of a time-bounded objective that fits our our overall mo and goals For quests and I think that we should shape one up around around learning as well. That would be that would be terrific um So let's think about that uh john pete julian Hello, so uh I go back Quite a ways with a few of you But i'm at the same time relatively New to this group and I mean I I I get okay quest. Yeah, okay See what we're doing here, but I don't I haven't figured out this this the structure yet that you're uh evolving And so I'm just getting familiar with it. I'm kind of um Uncharacteristically optimistically underemployed At the present I am working on it on a novel called the kennedy's impergatory which um imagines that you could bring john and robert kennedy back and show them what's going on And have and and do that experientially actually take them Disguise them and take them to certain settings and um I actually have kennedy. He now looks like a kennedy, but he doesn't look like robert kennedy and he plays he role plays Um an errant relative of his who is a criminal But he goes to the same place and he starts doing charitable work. He does outreach to to natives And the idea is that any is in a wheelchair Which makes him look like the guy who's also in a wheelchair and the idea is that you kind of like create these weird Examples Where the person who's fucking up has to deny that he did the good thing You know or else say well, wait a minute. Did I do that? You know, and I'm playing around with that kind of moral ambiguity and moral Modeling so I'm it's definitely engaging, but I think I should be doing something else Perhaps joining the education effort here because I got a lot of Background education and learning or one of these other quests. I'm looking forward to doing that as well And thanks john and I posted a video at the top of the chat that might have been before you joined Uh that I just did with the post. It's behind me that tries to explain What is what is a quest? What are the roles here? What commons are we touching? How do those things kind of interact that will give you a little bit more information about it? Okay, that sounds good That sounds awesome. And uh, so pete julian j Uh, good morning everybody. Um It's good to see everybody. Uh, I feel like uh, things are percolating along pretty well kind of in in infrastructure land of uh, ogm so It's great to see jerry's Post-it note video. Uh, that was really cool and Uh, we're getting some some kind of internal structure with free jerry's brain and with the foreign facilitation team And kind of working through, you know, how to How to support ogm better, um, I guess, uh, so that feels really cool. Good Um, maybe that's good enough for now And by way of checking just kind of to what peaches said we're also We're we're marshaling some of our resources to be a platform resource for liensburg, which is jordan sukwut's effort to build Steward ownership organizations. So, um, hopefully we shouldn't we need to sort of click that in the back to him But uh, I think that could be super interesting as well Julian j lauren Um, good morning. Uh, see there was a good time with the free jerry's brain call on monday It actually went for an hour after its scheduled time Oh, we talked about a lot of aspects of dealing with networks and uh Since then i've started to actually try to implement some of the ideas But mostly it seems like my sig graph work has taken up the week because they're trying to get all their meetings done by the end of the year So it's been a few meetings a few different aspects of sig graph Meeting every day Thank you. And in um monday's free jerry's brain call julian demoed Some of the sig graph visualizations which led to a really fruitful conversation back and forth because A couple of us are like ah 3d such The third dimension adds so much complexity and so much richness at the same time. How do you pull that apart? What do you do? so It was really cool At some point I hope we can get to where we're working at demo the the real 3d because as I said in the column I say repeatedly we're not looking at 3d graphics and we haven't been for the last 50 years It's 2d And what we need is 3d display systems, but it's you can't do it over zoom. Yeah um, and and i was hypothesizing that a 3d version like a walk in a virtuality version of zoom might be called zoom Anyway, uh j loren then scott Oh, why not whoosh There could be that Yeah, I uh Had a great call with the story flow chico lab crew on monday and um You know part of the topic which is kind of convergent topic, which is In this deep profile territory the territory i've been exploring for a long time, which is how do our stories as people add up to a story and how do Our stories as a collective Add up to a story or a collection of stories and so it was ripe and it got me thinking and I kind of I dropped into Another framework to layer i've been playing around with this for a long time on top of the journey curve I've been wanting to do like hieroglyphics kind of some kind of practicing symbology Uh that represents stories so we don't get so hung up in the word. So I delivered one of those to um a client uh this week, which is basically using the journey curve to layer on kind of iconic elements of um Tapped inside of your legend uh to represent kind of bigger stories. So i'm excited about that because I think it's Something that can reference both collective stories as well as individual stories Love that. Thanks jane Um lauren it looks like you're on a quest to find the lost ark Yeah, i'm um in the forest again awesome uh, yeah, so um We are super excited about uh jerry's uh video that he dropped This week last week About other roles and quests and everything like that and we just want to run with it and so um One thing we would like to do on on mondays is to host a call Where we do a circle appreciation and we're going to invite everyone from uh, ogm To come and it's just it's a really simple procedure where we just uh say what we appreciate about each other and um Use those little snippets. I'm going to turn those into many videos and I'd like to use those to actually fill out uh jerry's conception of the The map to try to place people into roles that we think they'd be good at and um Yeah, so I'd love to combine those two and um Figure out how how we can uh kind of jump in there and just Experiment and do stuff for that. So I think that's it And yeah, it was a great session last monday with jay. It was amazing Yeah Yay, awesome um scott class ken okay, um Something related to jay So that this is something i'm very interested in is how to Create higher lift so there there we are. There's every problem You're on one side you have to get to the other side. There's a challenge in the middle Oh, there's another way to look at it. Okay, so you have a goal How do you avoid distraction and stay on target? Again, these are understandable by anyone at any level and so I believe that these are fundamental and and one of my Key themes throughout all these calls is how do we take these ideas and make them easier to understand Not harder to understand because obviously we all can take it and make it more complicated because You all understand the nuance and the complexity of it all the wicked problem that's out there So what I want to share this week I'll paste this in the chat um This is something that i've been working on since I started Talking with you all. Um, it's actually the summary of about 25 years of just kind of playing around with thinking and my goal is to make these thinking skills a stack of interconnected bits that Are teachable to young people or anyone really And I finally Have gotten a conceptual framework for it. I'm very very excited about this um So i'm going to paste it in the chat that i'm going to say it out loud so It's in three big buckets conceptual practical and personal purposeful um The conceptual side is learn Which is essentially systems thinking and mental models at a very simple level Based on the cabrera research Their distinction systems relationships and perspectives model because I find it easy to teach to anyone Building on that You then so now that you understand how to take a problem apart and how to how to look at things practical Okay, so we're going to make something That's the reason to do these things is that we're going to have some kind of action Well, what are the the tools of that? We have visual and verbal We have divergent and convergent and we have internal And distributed so all of our tools that we use to capture thinking outside of our head And then in the last group we have You know the purposeful side which is games stories The future it's how we integrate all of this into a vision of something bigger And one of the things I was focusing on is I was making my notes um, which Strangely enough look like this kind of mess That's where this all comes from um I said I want to make this If possible single syllable or at least cat in the hat words um, and that was uh At the bottom I had learn make pictures words try decide inside outside play game story and you And I thought if I can use those words as my anchors I can make this accessible to anyone and that's Where I have ended up That sounds just awesome And I'm I'm waiting to sort of immerse myself in what you've built And there's a whole series of threads that you just woke up one of them is you know Is text a temporary hack? What does post literacy mean? What happened? What is our next mode of communication? Can we find simple symbols that help us illustrate and communicate at a very high level? But like that sounds really really animating and then a tiny side thing which is So the story I heard Pete And this is from a john taylor goddow article is that there was a type of learning of reading called whole word reading Which was a complete screw up and basically they didn't teach alphabet and phonetics They just had people start to see oh that's cat and like just recognize whole words and that Seuss was challenged and funded to create books that had extremely limited vocabulary for children in order to promote whole word reading And that that was kind of the frame within which he started writing that you know Green eggs and ham Etc. You know name your name your Seuss book and they're all about limited vocabulary and telling a funny story with you know With great illustrations but limited words So this kind of a bit of a twisty twisty narrative there And again, I didn't go way deep down the rabbit hole to figure out You know whether that was right or not, but but I do trust Goddow on a lot of this research Yeah, so, uh, where are we sorry, uh I forgot who was on my queue clouds. Let me yeah clouds can and then uh tray Yeah, so last week we uh ended up talking about tools and PowerPoint versus all the other creative tools out there and and we sort of ditched on the power point and it really uh Make me think about it because I'm a power point kind of guy, right? I'm thinking what am I like totally obsolete behind the eight ball here and so It put me on on a journey Thinking back about when I worked at disney, you know in the embedded in the imaginary team In disney, I mean it's like one of the most creative companies in the world, right? I mean and they They perfected the process of creativity from ideation to operational execution in a way that That's just incredible And they did this 50 years ago when Walt Disney was still alive and But they were using the kind of storytelling or ideation For movies and then for theme parks and then for anything hotels restaurants and so on And there is a very defined process So the first thing you learn when you join the imaginary team is how how do we work? How does the process unfold and it starts with what they call blue sky ideation Which is And all the tools that that we have seen that I've seen the teams using so far are basically Automating what disney has done for the last 50 years And they just use more manual processes now. It's in the computer, but the the the way of Kicking up ideas and playing with it and so on but then there comes a point where you have to turn this into a concept So there is a a concept and then in this concept comes a feasibility check So there is a first level feasibility and that then engages finance It engages engineering And it engages the operator So so then that concept check if that if that idea Passes the feasibility check Then it goes into concept design By the time it goes into concept design, you're now dealing with people who Don't know what was being discussed in the creative process So you have to you have to bring everybody along The storyline and now the process becomes like completely linear Because you have to start With here here is the foundation of the story. Here's how we have developed this and here's what it's where it's supposed to go So linear it then becomes powerpoint. So even a company like like disney powerpoint roads Um, and the creative process is actually Really in the imaginary team And and people who are now paid to just think out of the box. So to speak so that's reposition for me Yeah, you're okay with your powerpoint story Oops, thank you class. I appreciate that very much. Um, let's go ken pray dug Hello everybody, um, I was one of the lucky people on that call on monday with loren And jay and judy and charles and uh, it's really it was just an excellent way to spend a couple hours in the afternoon there um I There's a group of consultants here in the bay area That we're meeting quite regularly until the lockdown came and we were looking at a number of different things not There were some parallels to ogm Bunch of folks who were systems thinkers peter david stroh and maryland paul his wife and you know They live in berkeley and they have this big house and they're like you want to convene people to get stuff done And we stopped uh meeting after after march and I called my friend bob horn on thanksgiving bobs a visual synthesizer And you know, he said, what are you thinking about? And I you know, I told him a few things. Well, i'm thinking about How are we going to get the country talking to each other because we got half the country as jerry was saying You know thinking that the election was stolen and that's not going to go away And you know, you're the conversation guy. How are we going to get this going? I said, well Let's start small. Let's let's get our group back together. So I've requested to um hold the zoom meeting and i'm a little peeved because They're kind of dragging their feet like yeah, we love the idea Let's do it on these dates and they didn't send an invitation out and it's not happening but I am trying to Stir up some interest Among these folks to say, you know, let's sit down and reconnect and and let's Let's really put some thought into how do we talk to? The other however we perceive the other to be because I think it's really important that We start to do this and I'm thinking of jay is the only person that I have heard in the last few months Who said he actually watches fox news so he can get a perspective of what the Other side is hearing and you know, it wouldn't be a bad idea for many of my Progressive friends to spend a little time on fox news and you know, like you have to agree with it. Just get to know what's out there, you know We need to I think lower this bar of judgment Which is just so rampant and I find it a total turnoff, you know, it's like I don't want to be sitting in judgment of people. I I want to find ways to connect And have conversations without trying to change anybody's mind I'm thinking of the public conversations project which started After this horrible event in brookline massachusetts, which occurred I was working two bucks away when this happened a man walked into an abortion clinic and killed a bunch of people and public conversations project was The idea was to bring together pro-life and pro-choice people in conversation And they spent an entire year with the leaders of both movements meeting behind closed doors very secretive meetings and all they did was unpack trigger words so that You know the minute you said one word the other side was like, but that's it. I'm out of here You know, and I think we need to do anything to slow it down enough to actually do that to say What are the words that really trigger you and let's make a list of that so that we can get to know These are words that when they're entered into the conversation create lots of distress for people So let's make sure that we now know what they are and we cannot use those and find other ways to have our conversations I think it'll be a really excellent first step So anyway, that's kind of what i'm thinking about these days Thanks, ken jay go ahead I just want to thank you ken. I just want to add like a sad moment for me I've been really disciplined about trying to keep people on my facebook feed um, if they have very different views really it's like my yoga and um, I just On sunday. I was like one just smacked so far to the right and I I got locked down in a trying to like keep Human about it and ended up taking up all my sunday morning And r.a.'s looking at me like my wife's looking at me like what are you doing right now? And I just I just I was like you're right I just deleted my comments and I and I unfriended him and it made me so sad not just because um The individual act, but like it's almost like the platform itself wants us to be divided And I mean, I think that's almost obvious now, but um, but what is the thing that doesn't want us to be divided? What what is the platform that enables? um To to be able to see each other as actual humans that we can where we can find that that place of connection I think facebook's a terrible venue for for having conversations with anybody who has different opinions Just fractures really quickly. I think face-to-face or other platforms so much more useful than facebook um Yes, although i'm not sure which other ones I would point to and and I will say that We've had in the ogm community several people who have debate platforms and you know other kinds of argumentation platforms and other sorts of things that are really interesting Um, I think I reported long ago that um friends with a guy named Rome Viharo I think Vitaro who has a really deep sort of journey A really deep argumentation Theory that is not code is not instantiated in any kind of practical platform yet that I barely understand That where he's gone down this rabbit hole really pretty far trying to figure out how to how to make credible How to reward people for changing their minds a bit in this kind of setting So I think there's a whole there's a whole series of things we could explore there and I What my rhetorical question is what if facebook had been founded as a platform for citizens instead of consumers? Because what it is is a is a platform to trap data from consumers Sell it off to marketers who then pitch it to consumers And the way that that works is there's a reward cycle for spinning up active conversations that are very often dysfunctional So so what would they have done differently? The positive question that's buried in there is what would they have done differently if they had been designing for citizens? Right So let's go tray So I'm currently sitting in awe of the synchronicities of the universe. It's very very very very moment Because I have not been able to come on to og young calls um for variety of reasons and I got off of a previous call and I noticed that this one was happening And I knew that I was going to be dropping in 45 minutes late But there was just something that said get on the freaking call And here I am and I'm Just finished hearing scott and just and hearing ken and I'm just like oh, this is this is crazy how the world how Synchronicity works So I have just finished getting off of a call with ben roberts of the now what community And we have just finished having a call around Setting up an experiment Just beginning the conversations like nothing designed yet specifically around finding common ground between polarized individuals and and In particular when you're talking about platforms and this is new to me. So I don't know a whole lot about it But ben is a beta tester for the voice voice platform from meister conference and That we really want to just sort of play with voice voice and learn voice voice and learn what what it's because it's all about Micro conversations and then micro conversations rippling out and something that can be replicated where you don't have to have a facilitator And I was just like this is too fun This is just too fun. And I just happened to be dropping in on this. I don't just I mean, I'm just like Oh my god. This is hilarious. Um, so I'm just really feeling um I'm just feeling connected in this moment and grateful and um and I I really love being in awe and wonder of of the collective consciousness that's emerging and um, and I just really want to Say yay and and and can if I mean, I'm sure you have your networks and I don't know you But if you don't know ben or you want to connect I just think that there's an opportunity here that everybody's sort of playing with the ideas and I would really like to Nobody's we already decided that nobody's really going to be doing any meeting now until january But I mean I could I could definitely make those those connections and and the the community in now What is now getting ready to plan what their six-week collective in the spring is going to look like And and what the theme is going to be and how we're going to you know, and and so maybe there's something there and so I mean I'm just I'm my my I've got these like little Sparks going off in my head and in my heart and going I don't know what I don't know, but I've but there's something here. And so I just wanted to uh to offer that up and say I'm so glad I jumped on the call Thank you. I do know ben. I know ben pretty well actually Okay, well I would say give him a call Ben is a ben is a black belt on these topics and A couple people who've been in ogm in particular early were I met through The next now the now what conversations? so I just Ran out of time but participated in a lot of them, but But they're doing a really really good job of exploring these issues. Thank you trade. That's that's like really good synchronicity Love the good synchronicity Doug than me well, uh, I find myself thinking that words like conversation minds Words themselves Are markers of our tribe this little group here. It's the kind of people we are But we're dealing with people for whom those are not the markers their markers are things like I got a truck You got a truck I've got a t-shirt I've got a kid who's dyslexic I don't have a job They're different markers for different tribes And if we try and pull think that we can pull them into our tribe. We're making a mistake Uh, I like to think of what it would be like to hire people from The rural right or wherever we think that is To actually do the jobs of making things better. It is if they had jobs We have leverage on them if they don't have jobs to do this work. We don't have leverage Conversation is not going to do it Okay, and the first point second point I keep thinking of ogm And the absence of what feels to me like scenario thinking Where are we how did we get here what can happen what then should we do? Um, I think there are two plausible futures now That's always a dangerous way to start by dividing things up so neatly But one is decentralization and the other is centralization I think that where we are there's going to be a big push in society Towards centralized solutions using all the technologies we have the finance The state organizations and so on I think that effort's going to fail It's too authoritarian and it doesn't know how to deal with a lot of the issues But we're going to be living in a period. I don't know how long a decade of push towards high tech High centralized solutions using what we have Because people are going to feel like the challenge of staying under two degrees requires centralization The problem with centralization is I see the key problem Is the link to finance Centralization and high tech are ways of focusing wealth Not of distributing and if we don't solve that problem the high tech scenario will fail I think it's going to fail for a lot of reasons anyway like it won't have enough energy To maintain the infrastructure So that's going to lead to decentralization But that gets interesting because decentralization is in the context of a failure Not in the context of let's fix it. It's Fixing it and dealing with failure are different approaches. Anyway, those are my thoughts Thank you. That was uh three brain falls right there And There are many tools like scenario planning and we could in fact do a We could try doing some scenario planning on on these kinds of things Jerry can I just come in and say a word about scenario planning the way I'm thinking of? Scenario planning generally is going from the present towards the future It's like the runner at the block waiting for the gun I've thought for a long time that much better sitting on a surfboard Watching a wave come let it go watching another getting a sense for how things emerge and how they follow Scenario planning has missed dealing with the past Wait, what was the last sentence you said scenario planning has missed Does does not incorporate Looking seriously at the past that got us here. It's all from action going forward I just posted something on the demise of the nation state that points out Doug's problem really well I really like that guy who wrote it I go ahead class Yeah, I mean coming to the scenario planning and what I was just saying is to go from blue sky ideation to operational execution Requires a step in the middle, right? It's a translation required As so my job was basically to translate the creative intent into operational fulfillment and reality So so that we have to separate those two You know, so we have to separate the scenario planning with scenario execution. These are It's a critical step in the middle When the process becomes very linear that was my point I think there's a conversation to be had here about methods for back casting forecasting planning, etc And how they fit ogm methods Something like that. I think there's a there's a rich load here and how do we and how do we Instrument some of these things so that they're way easily available to people who need to do some planning But aren't planning walks. For example, that could be an interesting thing to try to do. Go ahead Kevin Well, Judy was it Judy Judy is ahead of me. I'll go after her Judy then It's just kind of say that my experience with scenario work is that you can do it at multiple levels And in my opinion, it's it works best if you start with can we agree on where we are? And what are the dimensions or scenarios that fit with where we are? How did we get here and then given those two? What do we see as possibilities for the future? And then framing toward preferred ones Uh, kevin then jay Yeah, you know in terms of incorporating the past and your innovation in the future one of the most interesting social enterprises that was over the last while was a team that sent a An anthropologist and technologist to the field and they had a really interesting Easy way to test anemia in india And they were discovering that people weren't doing it and then the anthropologist realized that Higher caste people would not touch the finger insert after lower caste people. So the institute a false Uh Purification of the instrument so you would not be touching after the cast because of this embedded history that the people wouldn't innovate around and so by you know Honoring a fundamental injustice. They got people tested for anemia. So it was just Realizing the past as a barrier That's uh, quite brilliant. There's lovely stories about sending anthropologists into for bali and xerox and bali It's the book perfect order Where it turns out that the green revolution almost killed off not only farming in bali but also the reefs offshore because They introduced fertilizers and modern farming and all that and there were algal blooms that were like choking the reefs And it turned out that the thousand-year-old hindu rituals that distributed that that were were done from the top water Temple all the way down through the subox which are the different little water districts on the side of the mountain That the that the rituals incorporated an optimization algorithm for who should get how much water off the mountain and Whose field should lie fallow this season? Because you needed a you needed a barrier of fallow fields that were flooded in order to stop tests from crossing And all of that had been broken by scientists trying to come in and fix things And then the the xerox story is that Xerox spent some money in the early days of expert systems in ai to build an expert system for repairing copiers and copiers are Analog digital devices that live in damp basements and all all the kind of stuff They have very very complicated breakdown loads and it turned out that when they sent an anthropologist in the anthropologist said Let's put an open walkie-talkie next to all the repair technicians And everybody's busy listening to other people's narratives And that this is where communities of practice thinking was sort of invented and coined Is that legitimate peripheral participation means you're listening in on your buddy's Fixing copiers and you're like, oh, yeah, I had one just like that and it turned out that the toner was getting too hot Because they were putting it down next to the the the radiator or whatever I'm making that up entirely But but it turned out that storytelling was a better way to fix copiers than an expert system of that of that era And so I'm a medium fan of of scenario planning because as an employee of ester dysons back in the 90s Esther was part of the global business network So I started getting involved invited to gbm things and they did a lot of shell based scenario planning because Some of the inventors of scenario planning were the founders of gbm So I've seen a whole bunch of it And part of me really likes it and part of me likes saw good ideas Just die in the middle of the process because as soon as you pick two axes for the scenario You were muting a whole bunch of other interesting conversations about it And I'll also point out that john kelly in this call has more depth in this topic Than than me by 10x and probably than most of us. So if you want to throw in your Your thoughts on this I'd appreciate that as well john Just a quick one Yes, the the gbm method or the shell method is a method it it tended to dominate scenario thinking It's not definitely not the only method. There's there's several other methods We might characterize them as you know bottom up as opposed to top down We developed a different method at the company. I was with When it was worked upward from the event gbm created events after they got the big scenarios We've created the events first bubbled them up crack You know arranged them in patterns Did a lot of pattern recognition stuff, you know more on that if anybody wants to know I'll just mention in terms of The the value of scenarios even when they're quote unquote wrong There's there's some good ones. There's some surprisingly good ones Developed by the center for long-term cyber security and here's the key. They didn't develop them. They sponsored the acquisition of the pinion from a lot of different people And a lot of this work was anchored in about 2017 2018. So There's a there's some funny tilts in it. There's no coveted all there's you know But it was 20 2018 looking at 2025 One of their wonderful scenarios that I think ogm should read it's I think it's a scenario too It's called the death of wiggle room and what it says is because of advances in in Surveillance capitalism because of advances in artificial intelligence because of all these advances We know too much Even if we're a little bit wrong We know way too much about what people are doing and that removes the wiggle room Which is what's the underlying thing that was getting everything to work You know was the fact that you know people would meet and they would say well, this is not of the budget You know and then they would adjust in their personal relationships and as soon as you take that away you know horrible things happen including they had a very interesting strategy that basically people got very aggressive about creating multiple artificial of digital personas Because that was that that was the that was the bottom up response to oh, you're going to know that much about me well, then there's going to be multiple means and you're just going to have to deal with it and we're going to we're going to very aggressively Develop and defend those because that's we got to have wiggle room We tried to hack the system to build wiggle right and the more we try to automate everything The more we enter that world where we have lots of sensors lots of information We try to automate the thing and we eliminate all the places where there's slack or whatever other word you want to use That's like a negotiation Yeah Cool. Thank you And we're down to our last 15 minutes. So, uh, I would love to do a bit of rap along the Kiko lab, etc Kind of a thing and just say we're we've been in this call What was this call like are you gonna do your own check-in? Oh, yeah, there was that um So I'm excited about a lot of things that I put in during the call I'm excited about the video with the with the post-its. I'm excited about progress on framing up quests Uh, but also I have I have sort of a new slice of brain and energy Uh, phyrogeum because my mom passed, uh on, uh, December 5th, and I spent, uh yesterday Basically the middle of the day So the tuesday the middle of tuesday, um, collecting my mom's effects from the assisted living facility Where she was and that meant sort of sorting through the last of her things Seeing a lot of things from my life again packing them up putting them in storage here Uh, a bunch of other things like that and it was, um It was sad it was sobering Um, they let me into the facility in full PPE. So that's the only you know Otherwise, I would not have been able to even go in and they for other people What they're basically doing is they pack things up and hand you boxes and Then good luck to you you have to go and unpack and do whatever But but I also got to see a lot of the caregivers who who knew mom and loved her and things like that And that was it was lovely. Um, so I'm trying to write a kind of a biography of mom and I'm really struggling with um The difficult aspects of life with mom and the good aspects and how to balance that in in a That sort of honors her life in different ways. So I'm I'm a little stuck on that but But I'm also trying to figure out How to do storytelling with more artifacts how to enrich this Anyway, and so that's one one piece and then a separate thing that's floating in my head that I just I want to figure out from you all If this has energy so april is In the final stretches of her first book and she had yesterday. She had an author day Which was awesome and Basically, she had meetings with her publisher is barrett kehler Which is an off the charts a small house, but off the charts brilliant and different And I love them And they had you know all day long she had meetings with them in the middle She gave a talk basically her author talk and 87 people were in the zoom. So it was quite cool And all of which just that's fabulous all of which to say like I had a book disaster in the year 2000 And I have part of my problem is I speak in brain connectedness And in linearizing things into a book always feels like I'm losing a lot But I also realized that books make really good souvenirs And my problem also is I haven't gone back into book production because I can't see an outline that I love But I was thinking Maybe there's a sub project in ogm Around some of the ideas and I could just start sort of start putting ideas and maps out there and see What book or books emerge from it from our collaborations? Like how does that fit together and how do how do how do they get expressed in various media in different ways? so So i'm trying to figure out Thanks scott and I remember reading speaker for the dead long ago. So I've got to go reload that into my brain It's a this one the wet one But trying to figure out how might we Tell multiple stories together that are interwoven in a transmedia kind of way In a way that that isn't is that that produces a couple books along the way But as byproducts of interactions conversations, etc Where the book souvenir has links back to all of the artifacts that are actually in the world In really interesting ways. So so i'm interested in in exploring the medium Through this too many plots and too many connected things and and the 450,000 things in my brain kind of thing like like to me There's there's an interesting artifact in the middle there to produce or multiple artifacts that represent this weaving of stories Um, i'm not explaining it very well, but i'm trying to figure out Is that is that a reasonable use of some ogm resources would people like to to see that happen or join in? um And if so, what do you think about? sounds like a great idea good use of of ogm resources and good use of ogm Community brain, I think I just I would love the idea to Be in conversation. There's that word again. Sorry, Doug To be in conversation around the creation of of you know a book That multiple people contribute to I think an ogm book would be really amazing I think it would be really lovely to do it in a collection mode Not a book that flows, but a collection of insights And there'd be a lot a lot of different ways you could Envision that if you put together a table of contents because you could take the insights from individuals And then sort to categories Or you could personify the book with kens chapter Claus's chapter and so on so and So I think either would be appealing I was going to throw in the chat one of my favorite books of all time is dog. Homer shows my things He just kept a journal of his thoughts and they were brief But at the end they were all published And each one is a nugget of wisdom or insight That I think is a really strong book. So if you haven't read it, I'd suggest it What's the title again, Judy markings markings. Thank you. I've not read it I'm not it's not even in my brain dog is but not the book My I think I mentioned on one or two ogm calls earlier that Kenneth Tyler and I played with his wiki to turn a wiki into a weblog and powerpoint killer And so to me a book is kind of a table of contents And if each thing being pointed to each chapter in the table of contents is a nugget that exists online Then saying hey make a book out of these nuggets and put this front matter and this back matter You know around it and then turn that into an ebook Could then and if there was a rich world of nuggets that were independent enough that they could flow together Then I could Print a book or publish an ebook that has this sequence of seven nuggets And then Pete could publish a book that has the first two Are his and then one of mine and then one of classes And then we could collectively publish some other sort of string or a series that takes the same front and back and then replaces The middle industry by industry That sounds really juicy and interesting and exciting and as a collective We could then create a you know a whole series of books all of which have the hashtag, you know ogm Books or ogm something rather That would be lovely. I would I would be thrilled To be part of that enterprise That sounds great And then we could all basically riff on these things together and come toward you know and in the act of publishing books We then also Connect the books to the conversations The first paragraph of whatever book I ever publish The first paragraph of the introduction was going to say thank you for buying this souvenir You have just bought a snapshot in time of and a serialization of a whole bunch of thinking Which is more interesting and available for free online over here But but this but this is a is a is an interesting, you know snapshot So ken and julian and then let's go to the wrap again, which I just totally broke by introducing a completely new idea Sorry ken and julian. So the late great j cross had a Really wonderful way of he he actually gave me his hard cover book and the book It was not it was a soft cover book But the the book basically was the invitation to the online platform So I think there's a nice synergy there of creating something that you can hold in your hand And flip through and get ideas and then you say oh, I want to know more about that and boom you go to the IGM, you know forum or whatever we've set up for that and you go really in in depth and there's You know edited videos from our calls and and interviews and so it could it could turn into something that would be a real living document You know and j updated every couple years You know it's like what what you have here is just a snapshot in time And in two years it's going to be different and so, you know, I I think that'd be a really awesome way to Grow this thing Thank you for bringing up j in that context. I really that's perfect. Thank you julian You're muted But the view is great where you are California state parks Uh, I think that one is and the berregos nice So this is great to hear because i'm completely with you about the idea that it's Many things just can't not be presented serially if you think of john murrow's comment about how everything in the universe Is connected to everything else and in fact, this was the basis for all this work in history I've been doing is it's stuff is you can point at something but when you really look at it It's connected to all these other things which in turn are connected to all these other things So for some years now i've been working with the idea, you know People keep bugging me to write a book about all this tech work i'm doing and One of the reasons I haven't done it is because I don't view books as being What the way we do books now is anachronisms of what we've had to do And now with modern tech we can say that there's all this stuff here And what you call a book is actually a way of navigating through that stuff And you might navigate through it a different way tomorrow As just as ken was saying how in two years it'll be different. Well, it might even just be two hours so it's uh This idea you have of saying, you know, well a few thoughts from ken a few thoughts from scott And then when scott does it it's going to be a few thoughts from pete and maybe a few thoughts from dug So yes, this is completely in line with the idea that what we're calling a book is really a set of stuff And you find a way of navigating through it and one of the things I want to emphasize is that the stuff doesn't necessarily have to be text Because again with modern tech stuff could be 3d animations. It could be trello boards. It could be symbols from scott's vocabulary Yes Yes, absolutely. So uh stop thinking about just books being made only of text rather. There are more many Experiences it's like here's one little bit scott spent a minute drawing one of these diagrams and then That experience goes there because it's not just the diagram There's also some commentary about it and that's probably going to be audio So whatever the stuff is we can put it in this big set and navigate navigate through it Scott I have a brief story about zanadu and then we'll go to the wrap um One of the so I was a tech industry trans analyst for a dozen years one of the first companies I visited was zanadu And in east in not in east Palo Alto in the old Palo Alto on california avenue In a all of that stuff has changed now, but I interviewed roger gregory who to this day is the geekiest geek i ever met He like looked like the the stereotype of the geek and I wrote an article that basically said project zanadu Is is going to have something in the marketplace in a couple in two years Imagine my surprise 15 years later to read somebody else's article about project zanadu That concluded that they were going to have something in the market in two years So they're the like in term I think they're still alive like somehow I don't know how they must have gotten a good endowment or something there Yes, they are in fact. I've had some frequent discussions with ted nelson. So excellent But but it's just like this interminable project that that doesn't seem to to land but but but it's meaningful in in the geeky world So Let's wrap what how what was this call like? What did we do? Let's just do a recap kim Yeah, I think uh doug's point that Inviting trumpers into a nuanced conversation would be an extremely threatening experience for them But the kind of delusion that the people on this call including me Would think it's a great idea To which I will answer I think at least my energies are how do we serve other people with functionally useful stuff to them in their world? Not how do we drag them into this place to have our conversation? So so i'm at least on board with what doug was saying Even if I may just want people to come in here and have lovely chats on thursdays One of the things rebecca solnett's three books on cities are an amazing thing. They're they're big And there's a book of san francisco new york and new orleans and it's different histories of different neighborhoods and different times And it's just it's a fabulous book But it's anchored by a place Also roman mar's new book of 99 percent invisible is the symbols of a city study An organizing principle around these multiple kind of books can be pretty cool But rebecca solnett's is one of my favorites and rebecca is awesome. Uh, I've not met her personally, but she's just awesome Uh, and sorry, we're we're again not wrapping. We're adding new material to the call Uh, so what else did we do on this call? class Yeah, I'm coming back to Process and and structure And I would argue that looking at theory you we are in the in the stage of crystallizing So when you when you follow up before crystallized crystallizing is concepting, you know, and then from there you go into prototyping So we are getting closer to prototyping an idea That sounds great. Thanks class and and it I felt several juicy things we can do together go through this call Um and get reframed as we talked about them. So I'm I'm excited about that jay um So I'm trying to parallel the uh conversation of decentralized Uh decentralization trends, uh localization trends and the book idea that you're talking about and trying to wrap them Into one which is something about sophisticated, uh localization That has uh, you know sophisticated network. Excuse me Sophisticated net highly networked localization Because then you can read the imprint from the local component or the front component But front through that almost like the way the internet's supposed to work You can also connect to and support and be connected to those other parts I like that expression of the idea a lot Um, who else are wrapping Scott, um, I'm just grateful for the opportunity to share where I have been And where I've landed my crystal within the crystal. I think because I agree with close I I am crystallizing and The response that I've gotten throughout all of this being able to share that and then have you at the end say Oh, like Scott's little drawing or to have Um, you know, someone else say I'm so glad I jumped on this call because of this Um, that was significant for me And I hope that because of the comments that I heard it was At least in some way significant for you and that you might be grateful that I'm Continuing to progress Based on these weekly calls. So Thank you, Scott, and I love absorbing your system's thinking Journey like like when you check in with with your progress and with things that you're focused on it I I'm I'm like absorbing that and makes me happy. So thank you for for putting that in our conversation. That's really great Anyone else? What else to be touched on this julian? This has been a pretty stimulating call in fact I would say the number of tags to follow up on just from this hour and a half is By far greater than other calls. So this is Uh, something I really appreciate. I'm the kind of person who just likes to suck things in And then the crystallization will come later, but And there was so much material from today Cool, thank you And and we've been using the chat here not the matter most and Pete, I don't know if copy pasting is going to work But that could be a way to get it all of this into matter most easily. I find I don't have I'm not using a big screen I'm only using my laptop So it's really hard for me to pay attention to matter most and see People's expressions, which I have to do because I'm busy watching for who want who would like to contribute so we got to solve for that somehow but But the chat's been really juicy as as as often is Just drop in hop in Work for chat and screen on an ipad. So hop in down to It's a platform like zoom that hop in you can see chat On an ipad Yeah, but hop in is mostly a conference an event platform, right? It's not a casual You know so is zoom, you know Interesting, okay And by the way, there's a whole bunch of web rtc More open web rtc based zoom a likes that we might co-opt and plug in And the dig life group has been using co-op.me or something like that They've been experimenting with what this looks like. So if we shifted our calls to a platform that allows us to plug in A better chat or open source things that might be a really interesting path That might let us sort of customize what we're doing Other final thoughts for over a time Good can't you're muted, but you have the last word Speaking of shift in the calls Next Thursday's Christmas Eve. That might be important for some people And I notice you originally said 7 a.m. Because we're going to be people from different time zones Seems like mostly we have a few people from the west coast a bunch of people from the east coast and some folks in Europe So I'm wondering going into the new year might we shift to 8 o'clock It would be a little bit more humane for me. Anyway, I don't know about anybody else who doesn't like to get up Really early, but you know just I thought I'd put that out there and see what the with the the group thinks Thank you, and you've mentioned this before and I've toyed with it myself And it's probably a good idea I've kept it early because I love the idea that by the time 8 30 rolls around we're done with a good deep long call And I feel like I still have a day ahead because sort of eating more of the morning is going to be hard But I totally get that 7 a.m. And the people from singapore And hong kong have not shown up really much at all. So you're totally right the reason I I did I did early hasn't really worked So let's even 7 30 would help. Yeah. Yeah for the practical issue of next week. Shall we shift the call to friday? Friday is christmas. So friday is christmas day Good point. Okay. So shall we shall we skip next thursday? What's the thought? I'm happy to be on the call I'm trapped in lockdown. So I'm happy to be on the call too I think what I can do is I can just stay on the invite and we did a thanksgiving call, which was really great um So why don't why don't we hold the call and people who need to celebrate with family and prepare just don't show up and That sounds that sounds groovy with me, but I'd love to be here. Um, because Y'all are my peeps right now and the time Uh For let's make it 8 a 8 a.m. Next week. Yes Thank you. That could start a trend. Who knows I'm following thursday as new year's eve. Exactly. Exactly. Um Well new year's eve less of a problem. I think we we maybe still go ahead with things Yeah, I'll have a champagne call Yeah new year's day probably more of a problem because nobody'd be like looped and hungover or something. I don't know I guess we're not gonna we're not gonna go out and party, right? Man, okay. Um, thank you everybody. This has been fabulous. Really appreciate you And uh, see you next week at 8 a.m. Pacific Thanks guns. Take care. Stay safe. Take care Bye