 So, Benjamin's talk is titled, Why the Next Big Thing Sucks. And this is a talk that, when we were looking at the funnel, you know, where we submit talks, all of us saw this talk and we were like, we want to listen to this talk. If there's no other reason for us to organize a conference, then we want to hear about why the next big thing sucks. Because the internet is changing, right? It's a medium which changes very, very quickly. And there's always something new that's happening. There's a whole tons of sites which are telling you about the new hotness, whether it's Node.js, whether it's CSS5 or HTML3, or did I get that backwards? I can never keep track. Anyway, so Ben's going to talk about how do you build something that endures? How do you not get caught up in the immediate, something that's cool right now and new? How do you use tools? How do you build tools to last for the longer term? All right. Thank you, Ben. Everyone can hear me. Sweet. Thanks for the intro. Where? Ah, there. OK. I'll just prepare. So yeah, I'm Benjamin Lupton, and this talk is why the next big thing sucks. First of all, I'd like to thank you from the deepest depths of my heart for actually having me here. Without you guys actually voting up that talk, I wouldn't be here. So truly, thanks, everybody, for making that happen. Really, thanks. Now, our industry is always changing. And it blows my mind how we can all go about, actually, each of us can create something so amazing as well. We can all create a big thing. But so often, that does not happen. So often, people fall down in these steps needed to create a big thing. And it never happens. Maybe there's a project that doesn't actually get used by anybody. Maybe there's a project that does get used, but it flat lines after a while. And maybe there's a project that gets really popular, really, really popular, and then it kind of dies out. And these are experiences that I've had in my life. So I'll be telling you the stories from my life about how we've made or how I've made this actually happen. So let's start off with pro the beginning. And this is probably when I'm eight years old. And I started off. And this was when MacroMedia Flash came out, like very, very old. And I made this animation of this guy just moving back and forth. And I was like, wow! I could make that. I could make something just move from nothing. And it blew my mind. So I was like, oh my god, mom, dad, check this out. This is amazing. And my dad comes rushing. My parents come rushing in. And they look at this. And they're like, Ben, this is the start of something great. And it was the start of something great. Now, a few years later, I've created HistoryJets, one of the top 40 JavaScript projects on GitHub. It's used by, like, say, 37 Signals Basecamp, a project management tool used by millions of people. And through that, they're able, those people using that tool are actually able to empower more and more people every single day. And it's crazy how this little Perth boy could just go up and then create this really amazing project that gets so much usage. And I think we all have that power. Every single one of us, like probably you and you and you and you and all of you, have that power to create something amazing. But because of that, because we all have this power to create amazing things, it can get quite overwhelming. Because we feel we have to keep up with all of this stuff coming out. When I look at Twitter or Hacker News, boy, does that get stressful at times. Because it's like, oh my god, this is the latest thing now, this is the latest thing now, there's a great thing now. I can get really overwhelmed. And there's also a bit where there's a story that happened to me not that long ago, about nine months ago. And one of my most recent projects, DocBad, it's like a CMS for Node.js, quite popular today, lots of contributors. I had invested so much time in this and I was quite emotionally attached because I was like, this is my way out, this is how I'm going to earn my big bucks, my big money. And what happened was Google came out with a project called Yo-Man. And they had very similar features. And I was like, oh my god, how is this little Perth boy made a compete with his giant corporate Google? How on earth can I get the resources to go about creating this big thing? Or how can I not get squashed by this? And I freaked out. I was like, oh my god, how can I just go about this? How can I make sure I don't get squashed? Everything's over, I'm going to lose all my money, I'm going to lose all my job. And I think a lot of us, we have responsibilities, we have to pay money for our family. And we have our bills to pay. And these things, these big things, the disruptive things can be quite impactful to us in a negative way. But I was able to get out of that. I took a step back and thankfully for my wife, she was, Ben, you've got to stop stressing out. You've got to detach yourself from that situation. And I took a break. I took a break from everything. And when I came back, I was so surprised that DocPAD was still growing. And even though there was this new player, this new big thing out, and they were growing as well. And I was just like, how is this possible? How could both of these big things happen? But how could we still be OK? How can we still continue on? So I asked the users, I asked them, how can you still wish DocPAD when there's Yo-Man now? And they said, well, Yo-Man solves a different problem for us. Yo-Man solves the problem of being out of scaffold. So generate lots of different projects very, very quickly. When DocPAD solves a problem of writing websites very fluently and very quickly. So different problems. And because of that, that's when I realized there's so many different pieces to creating a big thing. And the feature set, the similar feature set, is just one of those pieces. But all these pieces come together to create this big puzzle. And these pieces can be like, OK, we've now got the features. We've got a problem that was useful, that was very good. We've got a piece about, it's a disruptive technology that's able to simplify things very, very much. We've got a piece where we're able to inspire people to want to collaborate and help us out. And we've got a piece about how we can actually allow people to collaborate and help us out. And all these pieces come together very, very seamlessly. And when you add all of this up, just these little pieces that we can get so attached to and so fearful about are so insignificant in this big, gigantic big bit. But we have to build this big bit to actually go about wanting to create our big thing. And it's not just about, OK, great. We can not worry about the big thing that came out that may squish us, or we can actually have the calm to know, hey, it's OK. We don't have to worry and be caught up with all these different things coming around. I can just focus on what's actually solving real world problems for me. But I'm sure all of us also want to go about creating the real world problem for us as well, or creating a big thing ourselves, so that way we can eventually be in a path where we are doing what we love full time. Good ride, isn't it? We're going good. So what are the pieces for this? When I first started, I started always programming and solving problems that were applicable to myself. For instance, when I was about 15, I had a fair few music, and I had a lot of music. Music was important to me. And I wanted to organize all that music. And this was like the days before iTunes. So I made programs to organize my music for me. And that gave me the skills to tackle bigger and bigger problems. And then a few years later, I was into blogging. I was at university, and we're taking tons of photos because we're partying hard of it. And I wanted to share those photos as well. So I read a blogging extension for the blogging platform, like a plug-in. And I shared that with other people. And turns out that this problem I was solving just for myself was solving a problem for other people as well. And because of that, they were like, hey, this Ben guy is actually writing useful things. He's actually able to create something that affects lots of people in a positive way. And that's probably something good, because, hey, we can now use him to write program for us, to accomplish a useful thing for us as well. And then that's how I got into freelancing. I was just writing things that solved my own problems. And that gave me enough recognition for people to actually want to hire me. And that was awesome, because I was like, booyah, I can earn money by helping people. I can really help and by solving problems myself actually empower other people as well. But that's one piece of the puzzle, solving the real world problems that affect us. But they're the projects on GitHub that don't really get that popular. There's more pieces to this. It's OK to solve a problem for us. But we have to be solving problems in a specific way. And it's kind of like there's a question that really ties us really well. There's a question which is, I want to know this tech. What can I build with it? So often we go about learning a technology by thinking, I want to learn this. And then thinking, what can I build with it? For Node.js is probably a chat server. For Ruby on Rails is probably a blog. And that's all great. But to really focus on problems that will have an impact, we should probably be asking, what is a problem important to me? And what tech can I use to solve that? And we'll cover that a little bit later why that question is quite important. But we'll move on. And we'll know we have to solve real world problems. But we need to solve a problem that will make a big impact. And History.js was one of those projects. It became incredibly popular really, really quickly. And when I looked at that, it was because it was a disruptive technology. And I think disruptive technologies are all really about being able to solve a common problem that we're all facing in a new, simpler way that does away with all the previous baggage. And that's probably because tech, at least with tech, things are always getting better. We're always being able to do more with less. Because new technologies will come out that allow us to do away with the previous baggage. For History.js's case, it was stateful web applications, where in about the 90s and the early 2000, there wasn't a way to write stateful web apps. It wasn't really designed for that. And this thing called Ajax came out and I was like, yes, how can I do page transitions while still keeping the back button working? And we hacked up the hash thing, like the little hash mark in the URLs. And that was never designed for that purpose. That purpose was just to be able to bring you to a certain part of your page, like as an anchor. But that was the solution people had at that time. That was what we had to deal with. And there was ways to go about that we still had search engine optimization actually able to use. But it wasn't the best solution. And when History.js was about to appear, it came out of a technological push data, one of the HTML5 specs, the HTML5 history API, that allowed us to actually solve that problem of stateful web applications in the correct way. We were actually able to change the URL directly rather than just adding a hash to it. And this allowed us to achieve SEO the proper way. But the problem with this new solution, with all its glory, it didn't allow us to still interact with the old browsers, like IE6 and things like that. And I attended a meetup and they said, push date, amazing, but can't use it because we still have to support IE6. That's where History.js came in because it allowed people to use the new way of doing things with a fall back for the old browsers. And because of that, it had that disruptive thing. It did it in a simpler way and without the baggage of the past because it solved the correct problem in the correct way. But it's important to know here that it also became popular because it introied people through this mindset of being able to do it the correct way. So often people were still used to doing it this wrong way or this old way of doing things. And this new way came out and these projects serve as a way, these intro projects serve as a way of connecting people from here to here. jQuery is a great example of that with web development. So often people will actually go about learning web development by using jQuery in the toolkit. And that's really where you have to go to create the disruptive stuff. It's got to be simpler and got to do away with the past. I'll repeat a few things because it's really important we get that. So you can think about it one moment. But you're probably wondering, that's great, and we now got the disruptive project. But how can we actually make sure that project's sustainable? And how can we convince people to actually join the project? Because so often than not, we'll see a big thing come out and it'll fail a few months down the line. It will just capsize and it won't get maintained or a whole bunch of other issues. So how can we actually build something that continues to be sustained? And how can we build something to actually draw collaborators in? Because part of it is it's probably best to tell this to another story. With DocPad, when we started off during DocPad, from day one, even just the version 0.1, the crappy version 0.1, we had it in a point where it didn't do anything, really. But we published the vision, we published the roadmap from five years to three years to one year to six months, this big vision of what we wanted to accomplish. And then what happened was people would actually go to the page and I'll see this crappy little project. But they knew that, OK, one day it will reach what I'm after. So instead of going and creating their own project, they joined us. But too often than not, we see these projects where they don't publish the big vision, they don't share the vision. And because of that, people go to the GitHub page and say, it doesn't do what I want. I'm going to go create my own project. And by publishing that vision, we get to draw people in. And that's quite important because that leads onto how can we build something that is sustainable? How can we make something where people can actually contribute? Because we can inspire people to join our vision. But they need to be able to actually act on the vision. For instance, HistoryJS drew so many people into it, it became so popular, but not that many people were actually able to interact. And one of the reasons for this is because HistoryJS, I considered to be mine for a long time. It's my project. And I didn't really want anybody else to really touch it. And I've realized over the time that it being my project is quite limiting because it's limited by everything that I am. I'm only one person. I only have a 24-hour day. I'm probably only effective for about five hours if that a day. So how can this one guy deal with all the stuff that's meant to create the next or sustain all this popularity that project's going? And that's when I realized, OK, I've got to be able to make this not my project but our project. I've got to be able to inspire people to actually join the project but also empower them to actually create it. Now, HistoryJS is something where in the process of actually empowering people, we're going to hand over the torch to another person who will carry that torch and make it bigger. But I learned that lesson through DocPad. Because with DocPad, from day one as well, I published great documentation to try and help people join on board. So people were inspired to join the project. But with this documentation, people were actually able to go, boy, yeah, I can actually make what I want out of this project. I can accomplish that vision for myself. And that's really important because we have to make people to feel like they're a king. We have to make them go, boy, yeah, I can do this. I can make this happen and actually have that fun experience. Because if they can't actually make it fun, then they're probably going to go somewhere else. And so the documentation was important. But we also had to give people the power. And this is something we all as developers probably have, when we've encountered a website and it's had a typo or a bug, and it's just like, ah, what is this? And we know that as developers or designers, we can probably go about fixing this. It'll probably be an easy fix. So we send them an email saying, hey, can you actually fix this? And they would be like, oh, yeah, we'll add it to the to-do list somewhere, and maybe it'll get fixed. But with Docker, we actually open-sourced the website. So people would spot these problems, these documentation problems, these typos, these bugs, and actually be able to fix it themselves. And otherwise, people would just get so frustrated they would probably fork and create their own solution, which probably isn't what we want if we want to all work together and create something that has all of us working together and adding to this vision. So we've got that empowerment factor. We've got to create something useful. It's got to be disruptive, simpler. We've got to inspire people to join our vision, and we've got to empower people as well to actually give them the ability to add back. But that's a lot of work, I'm sure. How can one person actually go about doing all of this stuff when we've probably got nine to five hour jobs? How can we do this? We don't have time. Maybe we've got family to feed as well, and we want to go party and do the other things that are important to us. And when I wrote HistoryJS, I only did that within a few hours here and there, a few hours there. And I was still working a long time, like five hours a day, on things I didn't particularly care that much about. And when I made the move from Sydney or Perth to Sydney, it was really interesting because HistoryJS had that popularity. It was able to still accomplish something that became quite popular, it was still disruptive. And even though I only had the select few amount of hours, and by doing that, let me phrase this a little bit better, and have a little sip of water as well. How's everyone going so far? Great. It's a good conference. Cool. So yeah, we can within a few hours actually create something quite disruptive. And it's not that hard to do. We just got to have the skills and practice and practice and practice. But we would like to make it so we can work on what we love full time. And what I noticed was because of this work by HistoryJS becoming popular, it also raised my hourly rate. I was able to earn more money because I had that recognition, people understood that I had solved a problem that affected a lot of people. And by doing that, when I moved to Sydney, I was able to tweet and just say, hey, I'm looking for work, just moved to Sydney. And people were actually able to respond. People who knew about me because of my prior work. And it was great. Like, I worked on a project. It didn't pay that much at the time. But I still gave it everything. I gave it all that I could. And after that project ended, they came back and they said, Ben, you've done a fantastic job. And they told me to other companies that could pay more money. And those companies were like, oh yeah, Ben's done HistoryJS, he knows all this stuff. And there's companies vouching for him. So it must be good. And then I started earning more money. So now I was probably able to work four days a week and then one day a week on what I really enjoyed. And the other learning here was I could actually find clients that actually aligned with myself. I started working for one company where we worked on one of the open source projects actually in that company. So four days a week, probably for 20% of the time, I worked on my own open source solutions. And that allowed me to ramp up this recognition phase so I could still earn more money. And count that down to then three days a week I had to work on consulting. And then two days a week on just my own things because of this process of more recognition and then more value, so more hourly rate. But that's still not good enough. We still probably want to do what we want full time, what we want to actually accomplish. So what's the next step? And this is where it gets really interesting because if we're just accepting clients who align with our values, there may be times when there isn't clients that do or we may have trouble finding them. And that was a story that really did affect me. We finished up with that company where I was able to work the three days a week on the open source stuff a bit. And I did that so good, I ended up deprecating myself from the company. I trained the new employees and documented everything and made it really great. And they loved that. They really astounded by that. And they promote that everywhere. But it left me in a place where I had six months of savings and I didn't really know what to do. So I just focused so much on making DocPad better. And working on all these features on all these little pieces. And what happened was we ended up coming to a point where our focus had just been to not run out of money. And obviously, if you have that focus, you're probably going to run out of money like we did. And at that time, my wife says to me when we have one month left, then you've got to be able to make this work. What are you going to do to make this work? We've only got one month of money left. And this is when I'm feeling like, oh my God, I was stressed out as well. And I look her in the eyes and I just said, I'm going to do whatever it takes. And that's when I entered that state of complete determination. I was determined to make sure that my mindset went to a mindset of success and building something great, rather than just building something that won't fail. That's kind of like apathy. If you've got that mindset, you're just going to stick here, rather than actually going forward. So I started getting in contact with all these people, all these people who believed in me because of my prior work, chasing this goal that I set out. And it was really interesting because within three days, I had a meeting with a guy called Casper. And he had been following me for all history tests years before. And I said to him, Casper, we've hit an issue. We've hit a roadblock. We've got no money. We've got like a month left. I don't know what to do. And he said, Ben, relax, man. It's OK. The money's not a problem. How much do you need for the next month? And I was just like, what? So I told him how much we needed. And he's just, cool, we'll have that to you tomorrow. It's all right. And that blew my mind. It was just like, how is this happening? I thought with money, we always had to be creating useful things and doing consulting. But as it turned out, because I believed in these things and I created these great things because of this vision and draw other people to that, to believe in that vision, they actually were wanting to accomplish that vision with me as well. So if I fell down, they would pick me back up and help. And that was an example of that. And he said, all right, Ben, you've now got a month of time. What are you going to do? So I looked at that. And I said, OK, great. What are we going to do? How are we going to make this the biggest and the best? And we sat down and we discovered a new way. So much I was inspiring people and empowering people on coding or making the project better. But I wasn't empowering or inspiring people to actually give money. So I actually started attending workshops and clients and meetups where we could actually connect with the clients that share the same values as myself. And very shortly, I had landed a new consulting gig where this day I'm working two days a week on my open source solutions. And I'm still able to make it a lot better and contribute to this. So in terms of how we can actually go about building a great thing, we have building something useful, build something disruptive so it does away with the past. We have inspired people to join you because they will pick you back up if you fall and empower people to actually be able to help you pick you up, give them the opportunity because they're all great. They can actually help you if you give them the chance. But that takes time. So we came up with indirect value. If your stuff becomes popular, you get the recognition. And that can let you earn a more hourly rate. And through that, you can then start doing clients that align with your value. But most importantly, when you fall down, if there isn't, you have people to pick you back up, whether that's financially or whether that's advisory. So and we also have the story that we intrude back in with DocPat and Yo-Man, where we can be so fearful of things coming out. But the solution is all about the different pieces. They all have to come together and they all have to add the part. Now, I'm thinking I'm running out of time. But that's my story and there's a lot more to that story. So I have to tell you more about that and I'll try and help you. But I'll move it over to questions now. So thank you very much for listening to the story and I hope it's helped you a lot. Thanks. So questions? No questions. Everyone understood exactly what I was saying the entire time. I did a good job. Great. Yeah, Kiran. Can you tell me something more about this works? Yeah. Can you tell me something more about DocPat? So DocPat's got this model of saying you can convert anything into anything. You start with any source format towards any decision format. So what is the idea behind that? And how does that fit in with your dynamic serving abilities? OK, cool. Good question. Now, DocPat came about. There was a project called Jekyll by the GitHub creators. A very popular project. And it was interesting because I used that project. I was like, wow, this project is doing way the past. It's doing this disruptive solution on this new way because it did away with the database. It did away with the GUI. It just allowed us to edit files on the computer in any templating engine we want. But with that solution, it was limiting. I felt boxed in because it was only for blogging. And I was like, I want to use this stuff for everything. I want to be able to create client websites. I want to create product websites using this methodology of no database and just files. So out of the frustration with not being able to do that with Jekyll, I ended up creating DocPat. And DocPat allowed me. It was really just for myself at the time. Allowed me to use this concept of not using a database. So no database to install. Just editing files in whatever language you want. So Markdown, Echo, Hamel, PHP, Ruby, whatever you want. CoffeeScript, Stylus, SAS, TypeScript, probably, if you want. So all these different languages without really having to do any back in work to actually make it happen. And the interesting thing that came out with that is because we published our roadmap of this is where we want to go. And because it's done in Node.js, we have a lot of new power available to us. People join in on that. And they were able to add to that vision. And one of the parts to that vision was we should be able to write dynamic websites with this. Like websites that refresh on each regeneration. So things like contact forms or search pages, we should be able to do that. So we went about that. And we added those things so we can just extend the native Express.js web server with it. So we can compile a website that can deploy to Apache, or we can use Node to create something really dynamic. So that's the back story. Good answer? It does, yeah. I'm curious about this. For instance, if you have a PHP to HTML is one of your conversion options. And you're serving this dynamically. Now what does this mean? Your Node.js server is calling PHP every time this page is loaded? Yeah. So by default, we generate everything once. So everything's static. So we'll go through and we'll generate it on this generation process. And that'll compile our website for us. So we've got this website we can deploy anywhere. So at the generation phase, if we've got like say, index.hsml.php, so php.hsml conversion, then we would actually render that once. And then we will compile that and then you can put the compiled HTML anywhere you want. But with the dynamic abilities, we can make it so that re-renders every single time, just so you would in a traditional PHP application. So that's as easy as adding like a dynamic true metadata header to it. Or you can even write your own express route, so your own Node.js HTTP server routes to handle more complex situations as well. So. One last question. How does the actual call happen? So is PHP running as FastCJ, or is it called as a process? Yeah. So for PHP, what we do is we actually execute the PHP command line tool. So like PHP and then I think like dash e or something like that and actually compile it there by the command line. So PHP is one of the slower things because we have to call PHP each time. But things like less CSS or CoffeeScript to actually implement in JavaScript so we can call them natively, so it ridiculously fast. OK. Have you considered background processes for running things like this, like PHP? You'll have this problem with anything else that does not have a JavaScript implementation. Yeah. I mean, I can't think of a great example right now, but would you consider, say, Dogpad being a FastCJ gateway to PHP running in FastCJ mode that you can call? Yeah, you could consider it to be that. Just serve by Node.js instead of IIS or Apache. Is that implemented? Yeah. Is it part of Dogpad? The FastCJ show? So it'll be applied. Well, we serve it in kind of the same way. So the PHP support is just a plug-in. So you install that and then when we encounter a PHP file, we'll just call the PHP executable. Got it. Yeah. Cool. We got a question there. Oh, not here first. Hey, hi. Good day. Actually, this isn't with the tech thing. I find myself in a slightly similar situation. I've quit a decently paying job. I'm trying to figure out a way how to write open-source software and get people to pay me for it. Yeah. It's all fine and good. And I have kind of a plan. And I have revenue goals and all that. I find it really hard to tell my friends what I'm doing. They come and ask me, they're like, OK, so you're basically writing software and putting it up on your GitHub profile? Yeah. Who's paying you for this? Yeah. I tell them that it's part of a bigger plan, but it starts grinding. And I need to have this explanation with my friends. And because these are the people who care about me and they're really worried, and they think I'm heading towards a hobo life, so what do I tell these guys? Tell them they're crazy and you're crazy in different ways. Fine. OK. I'll stick with that. I'll tell them the Australian told me to say that. OK. But yeah, that was a situation with HistoryJS. HistoryJS, I was like, boy, I'm going to earn so much money from this because it's so popular. But turn out, HistoryJS was very easy to use. So people didn't actually need me. So I was like, what? But I earned that money through that indirect value. So I earned that recognition from the open source and that paid its way itself. It was hard for me to accept that, but that's what turned out. So yeah, chat to me afterwards, and I'll happily go into more detail. Cool. Thanks. Hi, Ben. Yeah, that was a nice talk, really inspiring. Can you talk louder? I can't hear you. Yeah, that was a nice talk, that one. So I'm actually a designer, a UX designer. So we just built a platform, a social collaboration platform, and we made use of Jekail. So the main use was, we wanted some guide for that. So some guide that the customer's UX team or the customer can make use of, a guide which can actually document how we'd built that. So it was a new one. So we just came across Jekail. So we thought, OK, cool. Even the content team, they just need to know Markdown. They can just convert all the PDF, which is already there, into a HTML page. And then we can actually link that to our own site, so that whenever we are selling that product, so the customers can actually see that, and we can actually document all the stuff. So I was in the dog pad that you do it. It was interesting. So what do you think? Do you have any other simple instances in which we can make use of things like a dog pad, Jekail, in a better way? Can you repeat just the last bit? Yeah, so I'll just repeat it. Just a bit blurry. Yeah, I'll explain the scenario. So we made use of Jekail as a guide for our product. So the guide was actually meant for user, the content strategist for the customers and the UX team for the customer, if any. So one more thing. So what we planned was we'll include all the techniques and the strategies that went behind building such a product, so that if they want to customize the product later on, if they buy our product and then they want to customize, we'll give all the guide as a form of HTML, in the form of a static HTML set. So that we'll have a set of guides that you can click through and then read. So one main challenge was we had some content team in our team and we have some others who were actually not so, we're gonna expect them to go in and then create an HTML page or create an HTML page or use WordPress and then create something similar. So what Jekail offered was they just want to know the markdown technique and they can just write it on as simple as writing in Word and then we can upload and link it to our site, to the product. I would say talk to me after. Sure. But yeah, it's a long question, so just talk to me after and I'll be able to give you a better answer. Sure, yeah. Cool, thanks. Hello, hi Benjamin. This is Sunil from CyanEasy. It was a great talk, thanks for sharing your personal stories and I think it's a great reminder to a lot of us to not work on the most challenging but also work on something useful to you and it applies, it helps other people. So I read in your speaker profile that you are, you have initiative for startup hostel. Can you share your philosophy behind that and what you have in vision? Yeah, cool, thanks. So my vision, the one that I kept inspiring people to actually join was just one of open collaboration. Like I feel so strongly that we should share all our knowledge as abundantly as we can because if you share what your dreams are then people will join your dreams and help you accomplish it. And the hostel kind of came up with this idea of I want to be able to travel and I may only have so much money, right? I want to keep all my money down because it takes time to go down this ladder. So in doing that, I want to keep my money down. I want to be able to travel but I also want that network of people who can help me get even better. So I was like, all right, sweet, I'll build like a hostel or do a hostel in like Bali or Vietnam or India or a place where we can live quite well, keep our costs down and have this great co-working area. So just be able to get people like all of you just in a place where we can all share each other's ideas and really help each other along the path. So that's really the concept. I'm looking at doing that in April. That's where a window of opportunity is. So if you're interested, like getting contact with me and I'm like, I'll talk to you and we'll be like, oh yeah, let's do it. So I have to like, I'll talk about that till like the night goes down. So please get in contact with me if you're interested in that idea. So cool, sweet, cool. Any other questions? Yep, my wife. I'm Ben's wife, very, very patient wife. And I would like to tell each of you that it's okay to be insane, okay? You are incredibly gifted, talented men and women. And you're gonna have your friends, you're gonna have your family and they're gonna go, what are you doing? Get a job. How are you gonna support yourself and your family? You will do it. Because when Ben said that to you guys, he said that to my face and he said, I will do whatever it damn well takes. And each of you will reach that point, you'll get there and you'll do what it damn well takes. And like you were saying, young men over here were saying, how do I tell my friends and my family that I'm working on legit stuff and I have a job? I put it like this, because I'm not tech oriented at all. I'm actually an ICU nurse. Sorry, be nice, I could save your life. So basically, I put it like this to some of the design students that we spoke to recently at the university. And they said, how do I explain to my mom and my dad? My dad threatened to throw me out of the house. And I said, put it like this. You like that laptop, right? You like that computer, you like the latest phone, yeah? I'm guessing you do. Looks pretty good, doesn't it? Now I'm gonna take it away. Well, hang on, I like that. Give it back. Well, that's what I'm working on. When you see me sitting here going like this, going like this. That's what I'm working on. That product, that brand. So get off my back. Okay, guys, just you really need to focus on how brilliant you actually are. And you know what? You're working on some pretty damn legit stuff. So, awesome. Thanks, guys. And we're all good, well done. Sweet. If anyone has any other questions, just hit me up, tweet me, whatever, it's all good. Thanks to everybody. Cheers, it was great.