 Hello, hello, hey, can everybody hear me now? Hello, everybody It was not an elegant intro. It's okay. It was a it was a heartfelt one. Yes Okay, there we go. We're back try that again Hello everybody if it's Wednesday, it's Warhammer and that must mean it's time for another episode of Warhammer Weekly I forgot to switch back the sound There's a good explanation for that Well as I was explaining I Spent about 12 hours in the hospital overnight into today. I am on a lot of extremely heavy pain medication. I am barely conscious But we do not miss shows on this channel So I had to call up the reserves had to get Tyler in because I'm not I'm gonna be honest My brain is barely working right now So Tom and Tyler are gonna be leading a lot of this show as we talk about the current state and I'll interject every so often With the near hallucinations pretty much. So yeah, and this is gonna maintain The streak for vents. He has never missed a show truly Correct he's put me to shame I miss like oh, he's got a more serious situation than I had He's still here. He'll be fine. It's okay I Will be fine. I'll be fine Yeah You're the co-host tonight. How you doing? Yeah, so I'm doing pretty well. I'm glad to be with everybody. Hello friends the news So we have a rumor engine. It's a little clawy boy here Tyler. What do you think we're looking at? looks tyranny or maybe These Malarian elves we're gonna see in 2024 Yeah It looks it reminds me of something corrupted Yeah, yeah What's fascinating is that it has five fingers and I know that sounds silly But I'm not a lot from a design standpoint like not a lot of things often have five fingers other than humanoids and just I Indeed indeed this counts. Definitely. I do have five fingers sometimes. So yeah, it looks like an apple claw I agree with Brian S. Yeah, and so it looks something mutated. That's what I'm gonna say. Yeah, I Think it's definitely a 40k thing. That's what I'll say Yeah, that's probably right. Yeah, that's probably right Um, so let's move on but hey some things that we thought might not have been Or the hood been 40k and we're gonna talk about a little later when we get to the Some some some new some later news items. So let's keep moving Yeah, I'm a city Yeah, let's talk about Curse city What we're doing underworlds expansion next aren't we? Well, I got the Curse City thing next Okay Tyler, how about you talk about the Curse City thing? Oh Can't talk about it. I'll tee it up. Yeah, that's fine. I got it. Here we go This is the second and final expansion which was surprised to me What I Thought we were gonna get like figs and stuff Didn't we all think that we did get pigs in In the box like the original Curse City box. No, like if you go like rave lords army Like I well, so here's the I just picked up the other expansion the first one He's like, I want to have these right like I don't want these like I don't want the I don't want to miss these And so but when you crack that open like it says on the back you need to buy chat a car You need to buy crit like the rat guy like so they read it looks like they Re-formulated and reprinted the boxes basically without the Without the models, right, but they are acknowledging that like you need to buy these models in order to play this expansion And so it like it definitely identifies those models very clearly on the back of the box Yeah, but like isn't that kind of crap? I mean not really But so so let me counter. Okay, so here's the alternative the alternative They release these expansions and limited number with models in the boxes that can be used in soul play Yeah, what that does is that once those expansions sell out which they always do because they don't they don't They don't overproduce that stuff right like they always produce unlimited numbers, which is what happened with Blackstone fortress right those expansions the models that came out as soon as those hit the market those things evaporated and Now you can't get any of that stuff and it's hundreds of dollars And so what they didn't want to do I'm assuming is put models that you're gonna want to use in your army in those boxes and not anywhere else So the alternative like is it like these like $50 for some cardboard and instruction expansions Yeah, yeah, that's fine Okay That seems like a lot. I Don't know. It's my given I am completely out of my gourd right now and pain meds, but That doesn't feel right to me Like I wanted new models I thought we're gonna get more cool stuff around the world and having to do with like gothic horror stuff Am I the only one I was pretty sad? I think we got all of it is the answer like I think we got all of it in the actual sole blight release Yeah, and any of them And in the reality is this in Any of the city models that were likely gonna get going to get used got co-opted for other things So like the underworlds warband that we have that may have been like the hunter warband that stuff may like the witch hunter Hexbane or whatever his name is that may have just been straight co-opted into That stuff, you know, like that, you know, like that could have been just been rolled into underworld Cato himself may have had a place in this and got moved to a commemorative many or whatever sure like I Suspect that that's what's happened is that they when that initially happened they scattered the models repurposed them You know into something that that where they could easily slot into a release cycle And then now that they thought they could they could they could release this rather than reworking the rules, right? They just boxed it up and are shipping it off and they're doing their expansions So, yeah, I hear you. It's still disappointing. So such as life All right, what's next? It's not Terry on the sad thing. Let's talk about the awesome thing Boom war cry thing war cry. Yeah Yeah, we're talking now We're talking. All right What do you think of these two war bands? Then is amazing one of them should not exist. We all know which one shouldn't exist Tyler tell us Tyler Tyler you tell us which one shouldn't exist All skanks need to be burned that policy has not changed for the last three years We get accusations of a lot of luminous hate on this show And I'll cop to that. Okay, although we were mostly positive on the new book But I would just point out That two-thirds of the hosts of this show are Apparently ready to strike most of the serif on range from existence and just been the army. I'm not there Yeah, absolutely I Think these war bands are amazing man. Why wasn't this the launch box? That was my first thought Like this is so much better This is so unusual though for them, right? Because now we've had basically two like launch ish boxes dual boxes in like four months No, this is how kill team is now too. This is really the new release strategy Yeah, so kill team was like this for basically the year beforehand Where effectively like just every quarter you get a quote-unquote like launch box now with With kill team sometimes it's been like one completely new Yeah band or whatever and one with like an upgrade spru or just repackage or something like that But these guys. All right, so we got our skink or do's Camelia knows Yeah, and such and we have our like that these jade Something something worshipers which are like zinchi clearly they talk to the speaker and stone or whatever which is like it's each thing These guys look amazing. I really like them and I love their face masks Other than other than other than the skinks. I love the box And I think it's really good too. I'll say I Don't know what you're talking about I Mean what I'll say is this Like if you bought like it makes me want to like I saw obviously I have the girl box with the two boards in it Yeah, it looks like both of these have been girl with like similar girl boards It makes me want to pick up both of those war cry and literally have like a table size Set of boards all in girl with yeah Yeah, more than that. One of my problems with the girl set Was it didn't quite come with enough terrain Honestly, no, but with these two war cry boxes. You should have enough. That's what I'm saying. Yeah. Yeah It's a do like you mean like a war cry size board not a No, no, no, I'm saying like because you'll actually have the four boards for a OS. Oh I see what you're saying. Okay. Okay. Does that make sense? Like you'll have an AOS size thing and then you'll have basically the two war cry boxes of terrain and the the gur box all Theme to gur and that should be enough terrain for a full size table Right, that's my answer. No, I Don't think so. I think it'd be like half of what you need, but and you need I'm sorry It's a these boards are for these boards for full size table It's for these boards for a full table My point is that I don't think they had enough for the individual work right thing and certainly not enough for two I love this terrain. Honestly though, if you have the original war cry, I think it mixes with this set just fine Like the buildings and stuff because they just look like buildings in the middle the overgrown crazy man eating forest so Like yeah, I mean there you go I love these like trees and the giant skulls and stuff like this I think that all of this terrain was from the previous set, right? There's not new stuff here. Am I wrong? No, these trees are all new No, the muscle arm trees are from the previous one the centerpiece might be new This middle thing. I don't know if that was in the last one This thing right here I mean, I can look it up real quick Either way, look point is Tyler, what do you think of the of the jade guys? I want to get your take on the jade guys They're amazing. I mean, I hope that they Not just stand alone that maybe they're part of something larger or something bigger Obviously they're related to zinch, but yeah, they look incredible Like a little bit of the narrative that they've shared so far in the article that goes down with them. It's interesting I really liked the unusual weapons for them. Like it's sort of um, they have like hammers and and like, you know, What are you like chiseled things? All right, because obviously they work with stone and they turn to stone So it just felt cool. Like you don't get to see a lot of zinch people with that kind of weapon stuff I like their armor style. I thought that like the half sort of over the shoulder cloaks and things like that Yeah, I mean this box is a winner for me. This was I liked both warbands. I thought they were both super cool so The trees are the same But the actual like none of them have buildings these trees all have like bridges in between them Yeah And then but it doesn't have any of these buildings like all these are trees built in with buildings, which is all new Gotcha So it's similar trees, but a lot of it is different Cool Yeah Yeah, I'm excited Everything models are beautiful as always so you'd be expected. Yeah, so uh I can't wait to see what the next because we know there's like two more after this Yeah, yeah, so Um, I mean if this is if this is where we're rampant toward Man, I'm excited about future work, right boxes. Honestly, just see what else we get Like this is what I was hoping they would do with work, right? Right, which is expand out and give us these kind of factions and non-chaos stuff So I hope like the next one is zero chaos do like two cool things do like a Undead one and a You know a destruction one or something like that'd be super cool something like that Like who else is in these this force trying to get this down spaceship? Uh, I agree with gareth, which which he says, uh, every work right during set looks like it's set in australia That is very true That checks out. Yeah um Then uh, obviously we know, uh, that underworlds we have unnarrow wood Um, and we've got uh, we got a roadmap roadmap ish Of stuff coming. Um, so they had like rivals nether mace and then they had a fearsome fortress rivals that coming With a looks like a moon clan warband, which is exciting And then a new warband and we don't know what that warband is Um, it had a symbol that um looks like a If I dare I say dark elf mask Yeah, though everybody's excited because they everybody immediately was like Oh, it's melaka. That's the melaka's face. Like when will it happen? When will it happen? Well, I think it may be happening soon Um, I'm gonna be I'm gonna be an individual of eternal hope. Let's just say that Tom if there's one thing I know about you for sure, it's that you're nothing but hopeful constantly Always just hope and joy. I exude it By the way for those late, I apologize if I sound out of it I am just to bring everybody up to speed here for people who tuned in a little later than right at the beginning Spend about 12 hours in the hospital over the last day. I'm very hot I'm very doped up on pain meds to manage the pain and yeah, so stuff like that So I'm sorry everybody if it's not the sharpest commentary I've ever had Indeed show must be all right and then warhammer fast. Yeah, yeah, warhammer fast next april I'm excited. I'll be over there I don't know what I'm gonna have for golden demon since I will already have participated in golden demon like Exactly a month beforehand basically, but I'm gonna go over there again I'm hoping to teach some classes Before or after we're still still working on the dates So for those of you who had a class in my London class that was scheduled originally for 2020 Well, it only took three years, but we got there everyone so Uh, so y'all And then We went to holy havoc this last week And that was a wonderful event. We got to see tons of bright shining faces Um, I'm gonna encourage everybody to well, I'll I'll I'll save that for my pick of the week in a little bit. Um But uh, uh, yeah brought home some hardware. So it was uh, it was a good good time all around We've got some big plans for the next one. I'm excited. Thomas spearheading this one. Um, And so I'm I'm excited. We were we were already Uh We were already planning and plotting I guess on the way back. Yeah, there you go I built all of that already Uh, Brent, it was most definitely emergency, but I'll be all right It's literally like in the ambulance to the to the hospital Uh, anyways, um Okay, any other news items Nope, I think that's that Cool. Let's talk about some pick of the week. Tyler You got some picks. What do you got for everybody? Yeah So I love the luminous show you guys did. I have been playing quite a bit of lumineff on tts lately Which is my only source of playing Uh, so I've been checking out various content on that the Stratigoi fellas An awesome review. I'd highly recommend doing a really good deep dive The uh, kubik shenanigans podcast they had a good episode dan and Brendan and brendon just went for one with alerith At dragonfall over the weekend. So congrats to him And then a new channel called the arms. I think they're scottish They had an awesome battle report with lumineff and daughters who came that I was enjoying today over lunch Finally Oh plastic crack Previously known as plastic creak around here due to my understanding of how to pronounce Peter Always has amazing content. He had a great post on competitive sons of bayonet list that I would highly recommend It's a really good breakdown of various lists Nice nice Digit Tom what do you got for pics? I'm going to just encourage folks to go check out. Uh, holy hammer herds Twitter feed he has a bunch of photos up from this last weekend of lots of folks playing warhammer At the holy wars our holy havoc. Sorry, um, which is just a wonderful event. We uh, uh, Steven wren was there uh domus Sean trolley and shaw and alex and we got to play our pigs and squigs On constant enemy again Zach and comron. Yeah, they were great. It's so much fun to play those guys every time. Uh, we Like played destruction Like almost all is exclusively. Yeah Four of the five games. We had four destruction games And the only one we didn't was the ringer. Yeah So how many people were at that event this year? 50 or 72 is the max Right because it's four people times 18 tables Yeah, yeah, and it was we were using all 18 tables every round, right? So there was two people had dropped out at the end So basically 70 I guess because then the ringer and Shout out to bell to steve's wife who actually sat in and played with uh, read his son And so we got to play them. That was very fun Uh, so she she like never plays warhammer But she she did there and did you see that she's getting steve to convert an army for her? I did I did a twilight vampire army from hit the breath herberttonian army Love it. Nice Uh, so uh For november 1st. So before this show goes live again Um, it'll be sign ups for holy wars. And so that's the segue Of the reason why I want to bring up holy havoc was because check out the event is that the next doubles event in 93 days is holy wars And uh, they both moved to doubles. I didn't realize that okay They have both moved to doubles, right? Okay, just different formats of what you're playing. But yeah Yeah, like in the fall, it's a thousand points plus a a custom-made warlord in the winter for holy wars It's you bring 1500 Basically a thousand plus a 500 point sideboard and you can swap every game. Oh sweet Yeah, so uh, we're gonna that's going to be fun. It's going to be fun quickly with a 500 point sideboard is that you play the entire 500 or you pick Questions from the 500 you you don't have to you don't have to play any of the sideboard So basically you swap individually is what you're it's like just like a magic sideboard You can like take out three cards and put in three cards. You don't have to use all 15. Yeah, same thing I mean, obviously it's you know sideboards in in In warhammer a little more tricky because obviously it's not like a one-to-one like cards, right? So you got to have you got to like sort of think about your your list and like do you have Swappable things right so it's like okay these two roughly equal the points of this thing and I can or whatever, you know That kind of thing I'd like to see these sideboards come back with singles and doubles A little bit more. I just think that it has to be controlled in a way where Some of us who are a little more uh deliberate are not staring at our sideboard for 10 minutes before the game Sure, you know So What you're I don't know what you're talking about there tyler you deliver it tyler tyler. Do you know how to fix that with sideboards? Like there's a way that you can you can like break the analysis paralysis Yeah, that's some ideas, but yeah, what do you got? I thought a little bit about it You bring your sideboard right and then you pre make four lists out of that sideboard Yeah So that you like already have Kind of set lists that you can and so instead of trying to figure out what you're going to sub in and out like You're subbing effectively to a different list You're subbing effectively to a different list like a pre made so you've already thought through it And if you need to even tweak it more like I'm going to do this but only pull out one unit That's easier than having to uh figure out the whole point window so That's the way to do it quickly There you go Uh, my pick of the week is for our good friends over at re rolling ones Uh, and a 3,500 point mega battle they did on their channel Uh, I watched a bunch of it last night as I was writhing in pain on the floor. It was a lot of fun uh, and Uh, great fight. It showed the new sun's abamut. So bear had a 3,500 point SOB army Against 3,500 points of iron jaws like four mega bosses or whatever like gourd rack was one of them and cragnos in the list too And uh, I don't want to spoil anything but you know the smash or tribe is good at killing monsters Jack brought a lot of monsters It's a fun time. So if you want to see new giants and what they do to enemy monsters This is a good example Uh, let me kind of jump back real quick. Yeah, um for the for holy havoc It is a fundraiser at its heart. Um, and this time around raise $8,600 So that's like if there's no other reason to go to the holy events. It's simply to Um, it's for fundraising. Yeah a hundred percent Um, and a cool raffle too. I won some scaven. So that's good. Yeah, I won some things Our buddy dan basically won a cruel boys army. That's the base way I can describe it. Well He really did He won a crag knows army now. He won a crag knows and he won like a dual box between like storm cast and uh Uh cruel boys and he won like a couple random heroes storm three cruel boys heroes And I won one. I won a hero and threw it out of because I was like, I don't need this Yeah, so yeah, so he walked out with a cruel boys army Yeah, because he already has dominion obviously so I was like you're set dude. You got everything you need um Okay, uh, cool. Let's talk about a little hobby time Uh, tyler You've been working on anything how it goes the I have a little bit The painting. Yeah. Yeah a little bit. I've gotten some plague bears done Got some light lords got a little bit assembling done slowly but surely Getting there. So I've got some games in like sat on tts 11 So tom you sent me your luminous list. Yeah before I had a chance to write a single list Did it corrupt you? It just so happened you wrote the perfect list that I would write I'm not going to give you too much credit Yeah, be careful, man And how did it play for you tyler that I would write and and how did it play for you? It's amazing. It actually for the finally luminous feel like a high elf army. Yeah. Yep. Yep That's exactly what I was writing it for is to feel like a high elf army Oh, that's so it's a highlander form. It's a strong highlander format list So duplicate war scrolls and a minimum of nine different war scrolls. There's 10 different ones I made I tried making tweaks to it. El therian doesn't really fit in there elegantly It's like all of the pieces just fit perfectly if you're aiming for a variety pack combined arms list It's fantastic. Yeah, so I'm so encouraged tyler like that's like I wasn't writing it to be a highlander style, but I like I wanted a mixture of stuff And uh, and I agree. I think that it's it to my mind. It's the gold standard of of new liminette lists So that's it's really nice. Tom. We're an enjoyer in the comments wants to know what the list is You should share it out. Oh, that that that would probably help. Yes. So it yeah, tom again. No, go ahead. No Can't feed the ego too much. It was very annoying that you wrote the list Already we've got a chance, but there it is Oh Is Avalonore, of course, he's just a rock star Stone mage as the general with the trio of goodies that you're going to see all the time the What is it called unyielding toughness for the command trade breakable stoicism for the spell And then molten talisman for the artifact. So that gives you a plus one to wound characteristic for unit of stone guard Holy within six Gives you plus one of wound rolls in melee for all alrith holy within 12 of the stone mage breakable stoicism turns the unmodified sixes ahead to mortal wound to fives And sixes do mortal wound and that's an addition which is pretty insane in my experience Yeah stone guard so far of the damage that they put out and then a seeker with total eclipse And then a lord regent with speed of hish lord regent, of course power greater greater power of hish on your This case 10 wardens 20 sentinels I blade lords five dawn riders So hopefully you'll get at least two of those and then 10 stone guard a ballista And the a little busted rune of petrofaction, which should be a little higher than 40 points It's fine. It's fine. It's fine. It doesn't move just avoid it Just avoid it or just avoid it Just to avoid the fact that it hits you three times before you get a chance to avoid it And you can one draw or two drop and actually drop it in their line with the lore seeker Ignore the lore seeker 100% Yeah, no, it's it's a beautiful list. It plays it's so much fun. It's very competitive lots of tools That's great Very nice, tom Uh, obviously, I know a lot of your hobby time was playing at holy havoc this weekend But did you have what you you actually did get a lot of stuff done you held it up earlier You're assembling for the next army This is the one that I Just finished not long ago my necromancer So you can't see her well So that's all I'm going to show is a necromancer and let you discern the rest of the thousand-point list Hmm. There you go Uh for myself Um, try to need to get tutorials made again because I had like 10 days without any filming I'm trying to record But I got I'm gonna do a little basing tutorial about chaos bases and chaos wastelands But I also got this guy painted up mr. Centurion marshal guy He's gonna go on the base He's super fun. Such a pretty fig. I did swap out his net hand I don't know if you can see that he doesn't have his big net for just like a hand hand like just a hand Um But yeah, this dude's cool. I really liked this guy. He was fun to paint Um pretty stoked About s2d coming up. Oh, yeah Um, but obviously I played s2d this last weekend And uh had had a lot of fun Um, and I'm very excited about the new book. So Uh, and don't worry manny. I'm sure you're not that far off Uh, okay Uh So that was some Some hobby time. Let's talk about the actual thing. We're here to talk about gentlemen Uh, I forgot to put the timestamp for the other one, but that's okay Uh, all right, so what we wanted to talk about tonight Just have a conversation about the state of the game Where we think it's at and we want help from you out there in the audience And that's not just because I can barely form a coherent thought It's because I want to know what you think So Tyler Oh, I'm sorry. I dropped something Okay, let's start with you, buddy What do you think about the current state of aos? Uh right now okay, so uh high level Clearly external balance wise essentially the best that it's ever been. Yep We've been in that place for some time broadly And it's only that statement has only become more true Over the last six months And So on that front, uh, it's really strong Okay, and we know we sit here on you know the precipice Here at some point this month. We're we're owed A battle scroll. So hopefully we're going to see, you know, the Few things on each side of that kind of get Pushed in some way And they told us some of they've made it clear some of what's going to get touched piece of chaos uh, blightlords Kind of hoping they don't increase the points Necessarily as the fix for blightlords. I think maybe a better solution would be to focus on drowned men Self, you know, maybe limiting the number of blightlords that can take advantage of drowned men in a list Maybe maybe that's like half if you've got eight you could do four if you got Four you could do two or maybe it's just a d3. But yeah, either way and then of course on the bottom end cool boys It was yarkbone reapers, etc Piece of chaos. I think definitely need to get touched a little bit there They're a little insane when it comes to the absolute top But like from from down on the bottom side to like the most busted army right now as far as when ray goes, which is crazy Yeah, yeah so Yeah external balance really good I wanted to have a conversation with you guys about the ghb You know, we've had a little bit of going back and forth on Is it a good idea to have six month intervals or a year? No, and No, yeah, we're used to and I can't remember where you stand to tell me that We don't necessarily do it right now, but I find that to be actually a bit of a tricky question In terms of the trade-offs So like for example, let me just say one thing real quick and then I'm gonna let you go Which is I think nobody will be sad if if we get our new season You know the six month point. So whatever December, January, I don't know who knows when it's supposed to happen exactly but Whenever that occurs, I don't think anybody's going to be sad if like bounty hunters and expert conquerors goes away I think I think we can like I think for the most part those just didn't work Well, that's kind of my point dude is that If we were back on the prior one year release schedule Would it be the case that those would go away? Six months. Yeah, maybe they could do it Battle scroll updates, right? It's like, oh, we screwed that up. I guess that would be one tool that they would have Do it but just I do find over the years and thinking about the game that things do tend to Get a little stale on a number of fronts at the six-month interval So I can understand where they're coming from in a number of ways with this choice Of two seasons in a year, even though there are challenges for many folks If that pays of schedule, I don't know. I just I just I don't necessarily find there to be a clear answer in terms of the way to do this Yeah, I mean, I'll give my I mean, which is a year is fine People can't build armies that fast. People don't like that much tumult. It's not it's not that's just not the world of Aegis Sigma and You lose people really hard when they feel like the game is like rollicking under their feet, right? People want someone else to be And yeah, if there are problems that pop up like if bounty hunters like let's let's say we didn't have this six-month season thing Which I hope just goes in the bin Okay Um, like we we know it's happening here But like let's just hope this was an experiment and they're all like they they hear our feedback loud and clear Decide to just bin this um so The the answer would be yeah, just fix it in battle scroll because that's fine those quarterly updates Those are those are good. I like those. They're small most of those changes can be pushed into the app So they're just there and they're how things read It's fine. Yeah Yeah, like here's the deal. Uh, I don't think we need a whole ghp I think a battle scroll with some points Updating even if the even if you had a points updating that's hitting everything, right? Yeah, not just the highs and lows Let's say that you did an entire points release At the six month mark. I think that's fine Honestly, we don't need a full printed ghp for that year for new battalions and new scenarios In new battle tactic. No No, you do that once a year I think the six month schedule is a terrible idea if that's what we truly have So the you mentioned the scenarios Let's get on that right now The what I thought were the I think probably all of us thought were the pretty clear top five missions In fact turned out to be the most played and those are prize of gallant with 16 silk stillness with 13 percent This path and head on collision both at 11 percent and then finally close to the chest Or sorry in the presence of idols at 10 percent and close to the chest at 9 percent This hasn't been updated about this is the honest wargamer T-sports network data that hasn't been updated a little bit I would guess probably close to the chest is around 10 percent I've been seeing it a lot in events of the last couple of months or a month or so And then so those are the top. Let's see. We've got one two three four five. Okay. Top six there And then you have a bit of a drop-off We've got what I think are two viable match play tournament missions, but that have some challenges stone cash And won't back down Stone Vents identified the problem with that right out of the gate, which is the alpha bunkering issue I think that I haven't heard a lot of talk about it, but I do this like having played a little bit I do think that can be a problem and then one back down has the four plus rally Chat times can skew that mission And then the community has largely decided that the other Four missions are Heart irrelevant like very low percentage play wise. Yeah, just it's not played because they're not appropriate for tournaments I mean right and and and I would say that the shame to me of it in this current season. I mean the thing I would Like is it be fine if they just released more maps at the six month point? Like it'd be neat if the like don't bend any of the old ones But it'd be neat if like at the six month point we got like if this ghp was was you know got rid of like bounty hunters and Expert conquerors and just introduced some new maps that could also be used I I'm not sure I'd be super sad about it. I'm not sure I want to pay $50 for it But at least then it's doing something virtuous, right? Like here's new corp of tie-ins We keep the battle brothers thing that everybody likes which should just be part of the core game, right? Yep. Yep and And that'd be fine, but I'd love it if we went from like oh and in the winter We'll go from 12 to 18 maps because the battle scroll will contain six additional maps or something, right? Like cool. That's fine Right, like great. Good. Cool. Cool beans Um, but if the if the whole landscape changes, which I mean obviously we don't know exactly what's going to be in there It's not but if the whole landscape changes Yeah, and that's obviously the the major concern. Yeah, and I certainly agree with that but yeah, I just mentioned the the missions because we have had ghbs where the community decided wow, we hate half of these missions you know and I know a lot of people are feeling that this set is getting stale and uninteresting now that we're getting close to the six month interval I went through that to say that I actually think it's even though may go against the grain of the Census opinion that seems to be out there. I think there are roughly eight fairly six very viable and eight fairly viable missions out of the 12 and that's a pretty good uh track record relative historically, but Yeah, you you have this feeling of stillness right at six months. So how do you address that? Is it battle scroll? Is it? I don't know, but I think you need something. Maybe it's maybe there's six missions That's obviously why we did war coda last year because everybody was feeling like yeah, right? Yeah, this is so stale Yeah I mean the the problem is if you had all 12 being fully tournament viable or something It'd last a year. No problem because you could you know, I mean like you lots of mix and match would be possible there in there Certainly certainly the problem is is that really I mean like I know you say that but about the eight But I really think it's closer to six I'd even say five and a half but like um And that just presents a real problem right like these things have to be tight They have to all be interesting And Let me say this. I mean we talked about the starter battle pack before You know and and that still needs to exist Uh, yeah, let's let's hope we see some version of that soon uh, but We need like an evergreen permanent battle pack that's much simpler But also that has the right number of full missions in it, you know, like the core battle pack is fine. I like I actually like Um, the three missions and the core core rules battle pack, but what am I gonna do with three missions? Yeah, right. Yeah, like we need a full set of missions six minimum So that like people who don't run an rtb stuff Can actually yeah exactly can actually like have some variants for yeah for their rtt's or one dayers or or You know just to play at home, right and they don't have to feel like they're running on the treadmill I think the impact of the treadmill would be a lot less if you had A more stable constant robust base, right where people could feel like that's cool. I can just stick to this part. I'm good Yeah That's interesting So in terms of some other thoughts A state of the game was they intimated this as well in the meta watch article last month We have yet to see well, we've been seeing the best Improvement on internal balance through these 3.0 battle tombs. Yep The same time there I think is still quite a bit out there that needs to get addressed eternal balance wise The poster example of this is the storm cast the very first battle tom with cool boys, right? Yeah, I mean, I think both of the initial launch tombs are Are problematic and yeah, you know like just because again, I was talking to somebody who's You know starting up in escalation league and was playing and they were like, why are there so many units? Sure And there's there a storm cast player, right and they're like brand new to the game and they're like Was this unit okay? And I was like, yeah, it's okay. You can play that here's how you do it and blah, blah, blah And they're like So I said not okay. Oh, what are you telling me? I was like I don't know what to tell you man. There's a lot of units, you know I'm to when it comes to the heroes events tell them to flip a coin because that's where we are that we've got basically 40 heroes and about half of them are sufficiently viable in the match play setting. Yeah, yeah Absolutely. I mean look You know for every lord bastion You know amazing model wonderful hero to play so much fun. There's a knight relic door I'm like, I don't know what to do with this. What is this thing? So, yeah, I mean that's the challenge now. I'd say post those two books Yeah, I agree. We got into a much better place quickly. Like, you know, I do think the flies present internal balance challenges to nergal But other than that, it's pretty strong um And I think most of the other tomes have have hit that pretty well actually most It might be interesting for us to try to go back and pinpoint any examples in terms of, you know Internal balance. Yeah, where it's a little lacking right now. I'm sure we could find some certainly of the nine or 10 Factions that don't yet have a 3.0 battle tone. We see it obviously a lot more than that. But yeah There it's rife, right? And yeah, yeah And and rational nihilist. I agree with you who said war clans save cruel boys is incredible like I agree that the The iron jaws they screwed up the internal balance Post the first change when they decided because jagged gore hackers were named the same On brutes and pigs they had to make the pig win neg 2 rend When the pigs were neg 1 rend and the brutes were neg 2 rend Yeah, it was it was like perfection Your art boys were your spam anvil who could rally easily Your pigs were your mobile, you know hitters that don't hit as hard, right? Yep, yep, and your brutes were the big damage when you want to go in and get in the scrum on an objective like it was perfect And then we ruined it through an faq So well, you know what maybe it'll get fixed someday Uh, sure one can only hope and andrew I certainly agree I mean we all know that like the the the old 2.0 books are still hanging out a lot of those are very problematic Right, so like gloom spike being a great example Well a problematic on both in both directions, right? Yeah, because like, uh, you know, you get stuff like soul blight, which is like still pretty good Pretty good You know, sure. Yeah, I mean, you know We played as you mentioned tom earlier. We played a lot of destruction Over the weekend, right? Yep, and so multiple we lined up against multiple gitz players And you know, we weren't exactly like rock and the most powerful stuff like we had we had very Like a current slaves to darkness like yeah, like non eats and stuff. Yeah, right and a and a fire slayers foot list Yeah, exactly. So You know, it's not like we were bringing the heat But I just felt so bad for them because I'd watch them tyler roll the moon. Yeah Yeah, and it just didn't go anywhere. It's just like they're like turned to oh the moon doesn't come out I'm like, okay. Well, then basically two-thirds of this game You're not you don't have the ability I'll find for you Yeah, that's rough. It was embarrassing um Yeah, I mean The the number one thing that I returned back to Is I mentioned this offhand It's funny that we're in I think the best the game has ever been for like especially highly competitive players or like The competitive scene tournaments are clearly exploding Right, just like the numbers of tournaments the attendance of tournaments and that's great I think that's because more people feel more armies are more viable Right, which is wonderful The problem is the hurdle to get in to to like Play the game has become too high The like base level setting we've talked about this on lots of shows But if I had to talk about the 2023 state of the game like end of this year alluded into 2023 It would be like boy. Do we have too much complexity right now? Yeah, like teach it like it's funny I'm getting ready to launch a like a small league with my kids and like we just like The amount of like herring down. I'm having to do is embarrassing right Again, because we don't have that like I don't even want to call it the starter battle pack I just want to call it like the Simplified battle pack. I don't know right right like so going in it's so funny because like going into it um Like because he came from he played in first edition He played in second edition and like having to bring him up the speed fully to like embrace third edition is just a mess And like I don't know how to do that and like I want to prep him for like a young blood bloods league But I just don't even know how to do that because not only the weight of like The breadth of knowing all the armies, right? That's always been a challenge, right? But then now having to like push down all the depth of tactics While also hitting all the high points of like the super competitive arm Yeah, and helping him like navigate that. It's just and he's playing plushie or forbs, which you know Because of course, you know like because that's what he wanted to play and so cool Um, but that has its own challenges Where you have to explain nobody because your guy got roared He's not allowed to use a super cool fight twice command ability anymore. Like what a fun thing for you That's right Your special army thing that you get which is that you go frenzied and and And like chew a whole bunch you don't get to use that because a random monster rolled a die and got a three Yeah, good stuff Sorry about your allegiance ability Yeah Yeah, I mean Go ahead. Tyler. What do you think about it? Yeah, by the way, uh, sickness said basic battle pack. Yeah, absolutely. That's yes That's exactly what I'm a basic core Yeah rolls core battle pack. Yeah Uh, the I've been watching tabletop tactics. So the probably most popular than many war gaming YouTube channel with their battery ports. They picked up aos They have started with the Or rules three missions, right? And then they've ignored all the ghp stuff. And so that's definitely helped but to me it has drawn a clear need for something a little more defined than just that maybe the core rules And what is in that book? Which isn't a whole lot But you've got I think how many battle tactics were there like three or six and then There's no they did a grand strategy. Yeah, six base and three missions. So anyway, it's it's helped them, right? They're they've played a lot of games now and they're working the way up to the ghp But it does still feel like we're we're missing something I mean, there's a whole lot of things we could talk about in terms of What would improve the state of the game? I think most everybody is on board with I mean I was just looking at the pacific northwest masters tournament of the weekend up in jack's territory and Literally the top three list had a cron spine in it and Oh, well, let's talk about this guy Okay. Yeah I mean, I think we all hope that it's changed in the battle scroll, right? I mean, do you really think it will be though? Really? I don't know man. I don't know I'm in amendment the points will go up, but I'm not sure if we're gonna get any more scroll changes. Yeah, I mean it's like that thing Is Uh, sort of a blight On on the game right now. Yeah, that's an understatement go on No, I mean, he's just like it's it's a cool concept that should have been relegated to to the open play Or not a place, right the narrative play of the thondia season Where there's like stuff there's battle tactics that are about dealing with incarnates It's a whole narrative experience of dealing with the incarnates and so on And like I have no problem with that kind of stuff being in there. That's great Right. That's super fun. Like I love things like that that you get to explore. We played through the thondia Season and did all that stuff. It was very fun right and The the problem is is when that a piece like that gets into When a piece like that gets into What do I want to say like into match play and it's just like ridiculously strong like, okay, great awesome I guess that's just a lot now right You know No, I should say that like I just think that uh There's there's a sense in which like it should have just been like malign importance Like remember malign importance have like cards and a bunch of other stuff Like rules that you that you could do and use and stuff like that. It should have just been that And if the events wanted to do a battle of thondia like Battle pack like to run that for an event. Awesome. Yeah What's gonna say is that I haven't know a lot of competitive players have the view that it's Not that big of like you play I've played that thing probably a half dozen times and that's never been an issue itch Maybe can is more of an egotistical statement than was intended but like that's a I think a fairly common sentiment Among people who go to tournaments when they play against it. Like what's the big deal? I can deal with this thing So it it to me. It definitely misses the point on some of that I mean that was my experience like I like that when I played against it. I was like, okay Yeah, and I hear the sentiment I don't mean to personalize it between on the show with us But I hear that sentiment a lot among competitive players It's just I do think it's missing the point about what the sheer fact How often we are seeing this and how often we are seeing it on top performing list at tournaments. It's absurd And as you said Ben's what it's the skew that it's introduced this one war scroll It has introduced. I mean some of which for the benefit of uplifting a number of factions, right? That also has some downsides in terms of hiding the reality of those factions Yeah, anyway, yeah Uh, it's pure apparently we've got some breaking news by the by Uh, I said breaking news everybody apparently the sylvanas FAQ just popped up so So a new sylvanas FAQ randomly at uh 10 p.m Sure, why not? Must be on a timer That feels like that wasn't supposed to go live yet Doesn't it feel like somebody hit the scheduler on that and hit 10? like Because normally it would go up at 10 a.m You know like that's that's when they release this stuff like 10 a.m. Eastern. Yeah, uh, whatever time that is in british standard time And so somebody hit like the wrong Thing they hit like the p.m. Instead of the a.m. On the schedule or whatever We we got a history to maintain here vents. We we've done this before with sylvanas Yeah, yeah indeed poor sylvanas Uh, so i'm guessing we we have a we have a scheduler problem. We'll take a look at that if it's still there It's robust. I've just pulled it up. It's like half of the page is pink from updates. Wow. Wow I got a minute. I mean it does raise the point obviously about A lack of a consistent schedule with battle scroll and facts Can make life a little harder for toos who are trying to plan their events around these things I have certainly heard a number of from a number of toos and conversations of the last six months about this You know if we'd maintain the battle, I think we were generally I don't remember if they actually ever said we were going to get basically we're on a quarterly schedule for these battle scrolls If they ever committed to that If that were the case we're a month behind Sure, sure. Yeah, I believe that's the commitment. So yeah, I mean, you know, it is what it is Um, would we like to interrupt this this discussion to look at the sylvanas? It's broad gas. Yeah, sure. Let's do it All right. Let me get it up here Bring it over onto the screen. There we go. That should be good I think everybody can see that now. Yeah We're in the right place. All right. Let's take a look at our our sylvanas changes here Uh, well, it's so unusual. We get breaking news during a show at 3 a.m British time But hey, why not? Thanks, whoever was in charge of scheduling and hit a m instead of p.m Here we go. Well, that tells me hopefully there's more coming tomorrow Yeah, uh, all right page 64 looks like we got some errata here in pink Uh, I'll come to that one later. This is actual errata Yeah, uh, so Strike and fade change the rule to once per turn in your combat phase immediately after a friendly sylvanas unit That is wholly within nine inches of an overgrown terrain feature or friendly awakened wildwood has fought And any slain models have been removed from play core rules 14.2 You can remove that unit from the battlefield and set it up again More than nine inches from all enemy units and wholly within nine inches of either a different overgrown Terrain feature. There's more than three inches from all enemy units or different friendly awakened wildwood more than three inches Okay, so what's the change here? Is it just a timing thing? Yeah, the design always read that read the designer's note did Oh, was there a designer's note? Oh, I see. Yeah, sorry Uh, this errata means that any abilities or effects that come into play when a model is slain But before it is removed from play such as blaze a glory battle trait for the storm cast Eternals are resolved before the strike and fade effect regardless of who's trying to stay in place. Okay, cool. All right good Make sense Yeah, cool. So so stuff like yeah fight on death works. So that's cool nice Okay, definitely needed needed clarification. So that's good. Yeah Well hit like for mistimed battle scrolls and for me barely being able to keep it together here So don't forget to hit that like button subscribe You're doing great. You're down to 30 minutes. So awesome Where we're gonna. I'm keeping you on a tight schedule tonight. I appreciate it. Okay. Let's look at the next one Allegiance abilities command trait spell singer. Oh my least favorite in the book. Here we go When this general attempts to cast a spell before making the casting role You can pick one friendly awakened wildwood on the battlefield If you do so and the spell is successfully cast and not unbound The range visibility and effect of that spell can be measured from one scenery piece That's part of that friendly awakened wildwood spells Oh, sorry friendly awakened wildwood spells that summon endless spells do not benefit from this effect Okay change That was a little much putting in the spells with spell singer Yep through wildwood. Yeah, I mean we partially handled this problem by fixing Purple sun, obviously, but I'm glad to see this like I don't mind when mr. Toots Sure, you know kind of goes through there or whatever. That's fine. Um, it was just that yeah, like Endless spell ranges are really important as a balancing factor for them. Yes, they are And so making the range effectively infinite That's a big change It feels like a problem Okay, well good good changes And then we have some changes to the thrumming with life ability on both of our bug riders At the end of each phase if any enemy models were slain by an attack made by this unit in that phase You can heal all wounds allocated to this unit That's just a cleanup right that it has to be that unit that kills them. That's what it is, right? Um, are they still putting back models? Are they just healing upwards? Well, that was a different that's that's Was the self heal the revenants are the ones who had a second ability that they could like put a model back got it Yeah, they just added In that phase Any enemy models are slain by an attack made by this unit is how it used to read then they added by this unit in that phase Okay. Okay. That makes sense people were arguing that like well, I killed a unit two turns to go Hence I get to always heal all wounds or something. I killed a nice model I guess so. Yeah, uh, certainly a stretch. But yeah, that must have been what was going on I can see why they would clarify that Yeah, um, I mean look Sylvanith players are basically elf players. So, you know, it's what you're gonna get. Um All right, and then we did have a faq as well Question if a rule allows you to re-roll a casting roll made for a narrow root wizard And the first casting roll was affected by keepers of the arcane ability Is the re-roll also affected by keepers of the arcane ability answer. Yes This is that's the 3d6 roll, right? Is that am I correct? I believe so for allows you to re-roll casting roll The first cast roll was affected by the Oh, yes. Yeah, there was some debate in the way that it was worded So that's a very good clarification Good nice some debate about whether yeah, you could do the the 3d6 On the re-roll or not. So yeah, good. Sure Okay, that's the Sylvanith FAQ. There you go live react. Oh Uh, cool. Good changes. I have no problem with any of those mostly just clean up some good timing notes Yeah, cool. Don't hate that. Don't hate that at all Okay, awesome We'll put that back over here All right back to our state of the game So Let's talk about Let's talk about sort of the the feel of these books that have been coming out. Okay You mentioned that the internal balance on the 3.0 books has been better and I agree with that I think that's largely true. There's some problem spots, obviously We mentioned storm cast and and you know craze already I think everybody would agree with that But I think for the most part it's been Uh You know, it's been pretty pretty consistently good My feeling has been if anything I wish they went a little farther on some of the books What I mean by that is like Skaven felt like not really a full Push update like it felt kind of like a 2.75. You know, yeah Yep um I wish we had kind of leaned in a little bit more I wish some I like I'm happy with lumeneth overall I think it's a lot better in a lot better place I mean that is just patently true and it's just better to play against like a lot of the np was sucked out of that Which is great And I don't want lumeneth players despite all the jokes we make all the time at their expense I do want lumeneth players to like actually have their army and have fun with it That would actually be good, right, you know, and I think this goes a long way to that I wish they had went kind of farther with some of the units um It made them more I don't know what I want to say like a lot of it has to still do with the magic phase and really Over reliance on the magic phase and everything like that with everybody's a wizard and all this like buffs and Cross buffs and stuff like that. It's all fine. They're just very dependent upon it Yeah, yeah, yeah, and that can really be problematic if you get into certain fights, you know I do wish that kind of you know, the old thing with the high elves was Was there better than you and they know it? That's the joke I always made right that when gw does top-down design They look at elves and go well elves are better than everybody hence we need to make their book better, right? I realize I'm being like um Completely Yeah, thank you But like at the same time I would have liked to see some of the units just be like better You know what I mean? Like that's fine and rely less on magic buffs. Just have them be better base. It's fine Yeah, yeah, yeah I can see a little bit of that like they are very they are very efficient as is that's what I would say yes And hear what I'm thinking about is like Like just even regular wardens which you know, um Like our our sort of your baseline infantry and I hope that those um I think post bounty hunters wardens will be back on the menu, right? Yeah, yep. Yep agreed but You know, I I just would have liked to see them not have to necessarily rely on casting their spell and like the sunmetal thing in General, but it's it's fine. Sure. They could just be like slightly better fighters or something like that, you know There's a lot of things that you I mean being on threes Like there are they fours and threes wardens? They are threes and threes and threes and fours unless you charge them Yes, and then they go, yeah Yeah, I don't know. Like I don't know how much better you make them like you give them a free up save probably not Right. Oh, that doesn't feel right. Yeah Right, you you could do it in other ways, right? I think this is one of the things I like One of the shows I want to do in the future is one of the coolest abilities in age of sigmar just like the coolest individual game element rules, right? and Because I think that there's a lot of cool rules out there that can make things interesting That like aren't necessarily super powerful but are still super cool Yeah, and make it funny that it it's funny that you said that the first thing I went to was Yeah, cool rules like Um, plus one to hit save and uh wound on like that vampire unit that gives other other sold You know like just and I was like, oh, that's just powerful Right. Yeah, that's just a spike answer, right? Yes. Yeah, you know, no what I'm thinking of is like, um Like I mentioned bastion earlier I love his like thunder head or whatever it's called ability that where he can just you know Pick a hero on the board and just boom and call down a hero Like most of the time you only get a couple mortal wounds out of it, right? But it feels cool to do it. You're like that Yeah, you're like Yeah, yeah about 40 35 40 dies against suns. That's yeah, right? It's amazing But just even like big heroes, you know, like you got an 18 wound or like this is a plenty of like 16 18 20 wound heroes, right? um Yeah, sure. Absolutely rational. Nila said the wargog mask Right, like the wargog like this is drilling you into the ground with their laser eyes Like what a fun thing that is right. There's there's just some super fun things like that Um Melt them. Yeah So but at any rate, I wish they would develop more stuff like that And my point is you could you could have things like the lumens have Abilities like that that are expressive of their piss went skillet arms as it were, right? All right, so but I think for the most part greatly successful the books I've enjoyed the most Are the ones where I felt like they leaned the most into redefining some of the rules Into better of a similitude better theming with the army So like despite the nergal You know blightlord's problem, which I think is a problem. I still very much love the nergal book and its redesign overall Like it feels good It felt special. Yeah, right. Absolutely. Um, I think zinch did a pretty good job Um, I think there are some definite problems in there and misses in there But I think zinch did a pretty good job of feeling like zinch without being overwhelming, right? I mean without being overwhelming that's that's you know, that's somebody's perspective, but yeah Sure. It's not as bad as it used to be I agree with that. I agree with that I mean zinch being the cheater faction is always going to be a little cheatery, right? Like that's kind of literally their whole their whole army theme The new sun's book actually just like halving the number of attacks And doubling the damage of most of their weapons was a fantastic change Yeah, and here's what's funny about it. Okay. This is something I wanted to discuss with both of you Yep That actively makes the book less competitive Right, right. Because it's more swinging. Yep. It's not less reliable Because 10 attacks that do two damage is better You know all else being equal, right then five attacks that do four damage Yep. Okay. Yep Because you get Consistency out of it and that was part of the problem when they initially made suns They were like, oh, they can't have big high damage weapons because then they won't be consistent enough to be too swingy and I'm like uh That is a clear mismatch of Psychographic profiles like this is a timmy army timmy likes swinginess timmy likes that he can suddenly have a turn where it's like boom 20 damage Right or like, oh nothing like. Oh, okay. Who cares move on right? And So they they the funny part about that change is it makes the army actively less competitive Like less likely to go 5-0 at a turn specifically because of the swinginess Right, but it makes us feel more like a versatility closer It will most of the players of the army will be happier when playing it Right, right, even though it is patently less powerful So It's like there's a good lesson there Right and and the more I thought about it the more I was like, uh Uh, I was really fascinated by the sort of crust incentives there that you can actively weaken a book while also making players like it more Yeah Uh, it's a rare feat to pull off So it also makes me think that we haven't seen that many books that I would describe as primary Timmy books Feel free to push back on that. I feel like we've seen a lot of Really a lot of Johnny Yeah, and 3.0 a lot of maybe a lot of Johnny primary Timmy secondary Spike secondary certainly Something along those lines, but yeah, I agree. Can you think of a net of a net? Yeah It's more sub parts of individual books like certainly Ovenbury Soul Blight is like a super Timmy thing But like as a whole army where you're like these comfortably sit in there I mean, we'll see what happens with ogres. I hope that's where they sit Right. Um, I think that makes sense Uh, I mean, hopefully I I think honestly New slaves will probably sit more in that space They'll still have some Johnny-ish elements because it's still like 50 million figs and synergies and combos, but but I mean You know, hopefully it's much more independent operator focused where it's like now This unit's just good because they're the they're the vanguard of chaos, right? Like the end makes immense scary people um Hey, woe now, I mean you all the all the chad models are are right there Just waiting for you to pick them up paint them beautifully and and play them and and Yeah, and you said that book I think is going to allow you to express whatever you want to I mean that so far that looks like one of the potentially best three-pointed one of the best battle tomes We've ever seen and what one my mind the the slaves of darkness that's coming tom. Oh, yeah Like I am so impressed By what they what we've seen so far With with that battle tone Maybe in aspects of it will be a little too powerful. We'll have to see there's there's certainly power That book on a number of fronts Anyhow, yeah, no, that's a interesting point of events. I mean, we'll see It'll be I I I I know I'm a sucker for that kind of versimilitude and I think they've done a good job of leaning into it, right? Um, I think players want to feel like they're playing the thing they chose. There is a natural Like alignment there that happens that if you were you know, if you were Into the concept of the army You know Like if you looked at corn and thought that was super cool and you go play the corn book You're not going to feel like there's going to be a mismatch there Whereas if you looked at iron jaws and liked kind of what they were about then you play iron jaws You're like nope, okay 100 delivered on the experience. I thought I was going to get Right. Yeah, yeah I mean, I I think like fast and mighty destroyers is pretty toxic as a combo, but you know, like it's there's a problem there Um, so I'm not I'm not absolving that army of sin But I mean it's fine like yes, they're in your face, but it's normally like one model. That's really doing it It's fine. I mean for for a lot of newer players or especially newer players piloting some armies They're just going to be dead in the water and that's that's that's the problem, right? Sure. That's fair um It's like Iron jaws will never be the top competitive army in its current form because it's just a melee army that wants to go Have a punch up and there's too many good counters to melee arms that want to have a punch up, right? But to like newer players or or sort of, you know, particular armies, especially it's just It's just like instant death and they have no idea how to fight it and they walk away going. Well, that was crap Right. Yeah, so that's unfortunate and and I think that For the most part we've seen a lot of Uh design that makes it easier for players to pick up these new books again I really do think the challenge we mentioned Plexi earlier is in the underlying Stratto it's in the foundation. I think they've done a good job of like subtracting complexity from books. Yeah Yeah, and that I mean we had a I think all three I told you guys this one of One of the people of the studio That that was deliberate, right? Deliberately scaled back the complexity of the battle tomes as an offset on the increase in the core roles Yeah, which is good. That's what you like Part a good part b not good We need to be able to combine a simple tome with a simple foundational experience for people who want that and A simple but you know, like meaningful choices tome, which is how they often work out, right? Like it's easy. A lot of the new tomes have a fairly linear path. You can look at and go like, yeah I was like, well, I get it. I get what I'm supposed to do here, you know But then they also have these like exploratory elements where you're like, oh, if you're very clever, you can do this and this, you know And uh And and and then consider on top of a complex A more complex experience for the top interned players who are getting in, you know, 100 200 games a year, right? So that they're not bored. Also shout out to uncle Adam. What's up, buddy? I hope you're doing well Uh, he said he just learned. He's a timmy Adam, I could have told you that my friend. Let me tell you what you and I Sympatico, that's why we worked well together. It's just timmy. It's a timmy parade over here Um, I feel like I would be curious Adam what your perspective is on 3.0 I mean because I if I were to guess I would feel like this edition is less attractive to him because of the The greater complexity all the rules The rules and yeah, I don't think he's I'll let him answer if he's there He wants to answer but I don't think he's played a game of 3.0 for that very reason Yeah, you know, he's been roll rocking the war cry and he's got a bunch of awesome war cry war bands And that great, you know, but that's like it's delivering on the experience It's way easier to rock up to a war cry table and be like, yeah, okay. I I get this. I understand what's going on, right? Yeah, um, whereas if you want that, you know, we did the chart with the the sort of complexity and ease of starting that new army There's not a lot and it's mostly destruction up in that top left Right, right Lowish cost lowest complexity like easy to start armies Like not get but yeah Yeah, sure. No, they were They were unless you're just doing trolls trolls need to be the exception. I think it's like they It's true. It's true It's funny too because I saw so many gets players with trolls there this weekend as well Um, and right because people just not a bad pick No, they're scary. And yeah, there you go. He said it's too much these days. Yeah, that's why we need that basic battle pack Yeah All right, here's my question. Okay You get to change one thing about the current state of the game Pick anything you want. Okay What's the one change You're making and I'm pushing you to limiting you to one because I want to know your rank priority order Right. Like what's the thing that you think is the most five alarm fire right now? That needs to be handled. Okay. I got an easy one with None of us can pick. Yeah, sure. Whatever. None of us can pick basic battle pack. We already said that we all agree That should be there. Okay. That's just that's table stakes. Okay. So now other than that The low hanging fruit in my mind Is we're still dealing with a crap terrain rule system It's almost the end of 2022 and we still have this reality Yeah, the community has largely fixed it and there are a lot of events and tournaments That are using some variation of the answer But yeah, it's just still not Implemented. So yeah, to me, that's one of the easiest easiest low hanging fruit right now. No, that's fair. I mean terrain feels so incidental Right, and it's funny too Again, like I hate to to keep referencing back, but obviously tom and I just went to holy havoc this weekend You play on steve's incredible tables Where they each table is a custom build experience and certainly that's not scalable to like every tournament in the country, right? I mean steve has spent Thousands of hours crafting each of these tables, right? Right. Interesting. But the but the point I'm making is that in that in those games Man, the terrain is impactful Right, right? Like you feel it it does stuff. It gives you bonuses It gives you it kills you right like there is there is both wheel and woe Coming out of that terrain And so it feels impactful to the game like where you go where you set up how you utilize the terrain to your advantage There are also big pieces. I would add like so they tend to block lanes and he has lots of impassable and stuff like that So yeah, I mean I I agree with you completely tyler like I I understand probably their fear is well if we make terrain too impactful Then people will feel overwhelmed by another complicated part of the game But we don't need it to be like that Like another core. Yeah Core is very simple. We are yeah The core could be very simple and then take things like the mystical magical terrain effects, right? And actually just make six compelling choices or 12 compelling choices I don't know why we went away from 12, but like Actually have stuff that that's interesting in the game and not just like do I happen to have arcane or mystical If I have preset there more, right? Like the six upwards is cute. But really you want the in camp the the the in-camp bonus And just to say in in case anybody doesn't know what we're talking about So rob did a lot of work on this on sport gamer events. You've talked with rob I did a little bit and it's been picked up by a lot of folks in the community Three keywords obscuring impassable and defensible slash garrisonable You could get a little more fancy, but those are the core three that you essentially need in the game Uh, there are a number of to's that are all implementing this and their packs And it's it's a very easy fix Makes terrain a lot more meaningful in the game. It gives you line of sight blocking You terrain that blocks channels with impassable and of course we already have defensible So, yeah You know cover is built into the core roles. We all understand what cover means. You don't have to have a keyword for cover We all know that it's it's already built into the function of the game. Yeah. Yeah uh, and then By the way people in the audience watching I want to know what your number one thing is as well drop that in the chat Let's hear. Let's hear it. What's what's your what's your number one pick? Okay of if you could change one thing You're king for a day You get to change anything you want. What are you changing? Tom? What's your pick? Yeah, uh, it's easy. Uh, all the 2.0 books updated the three Um, it's really tough um for half the player base To be playing under a different rule. So sure what I mean by that is like with with Command abilities and the fact that like people like some books every hero has command abilities on them versus some books You have like one unit with command abilities Yeah, um, it's it's tough to bring new people into the game Because I can't just say here by any of these armies, right Because what ends up inevitably happening is Well, this army and this is what's good now, but they're going to upgrade this book here in the next year And we don't know what's what's going to be And so it it introduces a degree. So for existing players, there's a degree of dissatisfaction Um either because you're on an outdated child chassis Or your opponent is getting to play and abuse an outdated chassis. Sure Right. So either way it's just a bad feel, right? Um, and That's on one hand and then on the other hand we have You know people coming into the game Like it's tough for them to adopt in right Um, because now that you're trying to explain that like this is how it is But most of the time like For example, my son wants to play, you know, he wants to play his army We have all these command abilities to choose from but in the new rules There's all these core command abilities. So now he's not juggling Three command abilities that he now has to know and internalize. He's having to like internalize eight Yeah And some of them are once per game because it's fleshy to reports and yet and so like For me if there's one thing that they could do is just wave a wand and have updated books for everybody Because it's just so Um, difficult We are at the uh, we are at technically the five-minute mark three-minute markman. So we need to begin to wrap things up. I understand There's some good stuff in the in here by the way that people have said in the in the comments Just want to talk about a couple of them Uh, so there was a general shout out from swaggy shadow for coherency And like I think that would actually be my pick Um, uh, just because I hate the current coherency rules Yeah makes way too many units unplayable and we have this like duct tape patch of the battle brothers thing But then you have to be a galatian veteran, which also sucks in the current world, right? And just because of the existence of bounty hunters And I just You know, we see more units having like randomly 28 mil bases and stuff like that Which just further pushes the problem Uh, like so coherency in general, I would love to see it change to You know the 11 models or more or something like that or more than 11 models Otherwise you use old school coherency Um, or something else like you could you could do the everybody asked you then x-enches of the the champion of the Unit or something like that fine. I don't care. Yeah Um, like there's choices. I don't I'm not here to propose a solution necessarily But like things like battle bond or battle brothers or whatever it's called where you can fight over the top of people That should just become part of the game for like for some kind of baseline infantry Because once bounty hunters is gone, like I do want to see people actually play with infantry. It would be super neat Yeah Um, so that would be my my one change. Um Because I just feel like too many units get the real short end of the stick with it Yeah Tom I had nine spirit host wipe out 10 stone guard who were galley vets I was like, what what just happened? Of course. He did because they were bounty hunter. They were bounty hunters Okay, cool That's exactly right Yeah You know, I mean one of the reasons I didn't pick battle tactics, which could have been another pick right Was just because if we have the basic battle pack it doesn't have battle tactics in it Like they're just jettisoned from the game, right? So then so basically there'd be two settings because I think that battle tactics are also very popular amongst a subset of people And I don't want to ruin that for those people who really enjoy them Right. I think it's okay to have two different settings of the game. Like that's fine Here's the basic battle pack doesn't use battle tactics doesn't have that kind of thing Yeah, we just we play poor hammer and have a scrap and fight over objectives Yeah, fine. Great. That's that's perfectly good right And then here's the the the battle tactic thing that's about layering on that complexity and making, you know Difficult choices or whatever fine Right. Yep. Yep. Like that that that's okay because then you can pick the the mode you want That's what I really want. I don't want people to have that that modality choice um Okay Let's see Who else? Oh, Martin Orlando says nuke faction and battle pack battle tactics attach them to to uh, the actual battle plan instead That's a fun idea Uh, sickness. It said every time we change an addition. We should always have a ravening horde style update to just like All the old army books are gone I love that idea. I think people would straight revolt well We have the tech for it, you know, and I I made a comment in the chat specifically to this effect We have an app Why don't we like and I know that I'm I'm asking this is a huge ask But when you move, you know, all the the command abilities into the core rules and off of war scrolls You know the easy way to do this is just immediately pull them in the app Yeah Like just update all the war scrolls in the app because we have a living app, right? Now it doesn't have to be the final version of those war scrolls Like when the book releases you can like you can re-up that, right? But it would be one way to do that. I want to jump down farther and Respond to cw kreiner who said battle tactics are what make 3.0 3.0 because somebody said changing battle tactics Uh, I disagree. We played an entire event this weekend and not a single battle tactic was ever used And you know what the game was better for it And it was still 3.0. There were still monster sections and there were still core Command abilities and there was still like there are all the things that make the addition what it is without battle tactics so just real quickly on that the Steve was you guys were playing Killing and objective holding as your two primary Things that you're doing. Well, there's something something else sort of no, they're really there There were grand strategies like there were lots of other things. It just we weren't doing battle tactics, right? Okay, what what I'm asking you right because 3.0 essentially you have the killing layer You have the primary objective scoring and then you have basically grand stretch and grand strats and battle tactics as the secondary stuff, right? And I was just asking yeah, did you have a third element? This a plant or were you basically yeah, we have five elements Yeah, because every because every round has it's there's effectively it's almost like what marty's describing. They're sort of in In that particular like round one, there's a particular battle plan that you're playing on Right and in that there's like four different objectives you're tracking and like not some of them are like Do a particular thing or kill a particular thing with a particular thing They feel very much like they might be go to a place might be hold a thing It might be kill a thing like a lot of variants to it, right? It might not even be any of that It might be like Go walk off the other side of the table. Okay or something like that But They're effectively standing in and taking the place, right? So you have they they feel Um ingrained Into the experience of the battle plan. That's why I that's why I do like marty's right, right? Like yeah, they're integrated. Yeah, they're yeah Thank you. That's exactly right Um You know where it's like hey, this is just a thing you're trying to do. It's part of the the scenario It's built in there, right? Hey, hey vent. We we've run out of time Um, we you had a 90 minute window to uh to do a show and we we've exceeded that Um, and so we need to wrap up now. No, that's fine. I so so let's give our quick summary thoughts here By the way, don't forget to hit like subscribe do all that fun stuff I'm sorry. The show isn't uh longer or better tonight. I'm sorry that I'm out of it Like as for those who just a quick explanation again for those who are late Uh, this is in the hospital all overnight and all morning and I'm very out of it on pain meds for various problems So, um, I'm sorry everyone. Um, but at any rate, let's let's hit a little little summary Okay Tyler Overall kind of closing thoughts. Maybe it's you know, what do you want to see in the battle scroll? What do you want to see going forward? Uh that kind of thing right like what what's your feeling right now? Yeah, I Think we have a pretty good idea of what we're going to get at the core with the battle scroll I don't think there's a whole lot more to be said about that Uh, I mean there are a number of little tweaks that we haven't mentioned that we could talk about but you know, they're Not that critical Anywhere from things like get rid of four plus rally, right? I'm not I think that's probably not a good idea for the game You know, there's some things like that that we're still dealing with Maybe no stacking a minus one damage. There's certain armies some of us might enjoy That take advantage of stacking minus one damage The the detriment of everybody playing against Playing against them the I would love to talk with you guys more sometimes About tonight is a great time Tom about battle tactics and grand strategies And what's what are alternatives because I feel like you guys are definitely we have I have a disconnect with you on this I think we have three different opinions on this too Yeah, yeah, that's probably true. Okay. So anyway, yeah, I would love to explore that I think that's maybe one of the most interesting ones to explore in more detail. I agree. Yeah, totally agree. We can do that sometimes Yeah, because there's definitely a lot to unpack there if we're talking about jettisoning a thing Does it need to be replaced? What do you replace it with? What's the experience like and again? I'd almost want to take it back to the first principles of like Why what's the what's the value of this? What is it adding to the game to the play experience? And I think that's it. There is an answer there Yeah, right. I don't think these things are devoid of value. I just think maybe we have an engineering challenge an implementation problem um Tom what's your what's your summary state here? Um, I mean things are fine It's fine Uh, I think that from a highly competitive. It's great From just general play. It's fine as an entry level new player getting in it's terrible Like that's my that's my assessment Tom I've never I Anecdotally, I have this feeling that I've Cannot remember there being so many players who have dropped off because of this complexity issue Yeah, it it definitely feels like something that has hit a a higher Level in 3.0 than 2.0 and 1.0 Yep, I agree. Yes, I agree There's just no times Yeah, there's just no way around it like it's we we have hit a We have hit a tipping point Um, and I think that we can see it and the number of players that have just quit Yeah Yep, uh So, uh, my summation would be like I really love a lot of the new army books Like I tell you what man, it's been hit after hit for the armies I played You know even with Skaven being a bit underwhelming. I've still had so much fun playing that book Right. I just think it's a great design. I played a couple games with the nercle book and had fun I don't know like if that that right there is a statement. I didn't think I could ever say in my life, right? Um excited about suns like I love the sun's redesign I'm excited to see what they do with ogre's looking along with that, right? So like I just couldn't be more thrilled about the books We're seeing. Um, it just gets me juiced to play these armies, right, which is awesome. That's what you want Um, I think we need to build the on ramp to make it easier for people and to have a better experience For for people who don't want that level of complexity Like we need to have an alternate mode that you can engage with the the the individual game on uh, and You know, yeah, jack just said brint and shoe, you know are largely not playing because of it See and that's that's this was a discussion that came up on twitter, right? Um with with people and I just think like Uh I just think that like having that separate mode where they would have a version that's playable and enjoyable to them that strips out You know that stuff is what I want. I do not think it's the right idea to reset the whole game It's about having the different strokes for different folks Yeah, um, yeah, and what I hope to see is Whenever my one hope for the future Would be well a to continue this battle Tome like for similar to stuff like, you know, I hope whenever we see gits That it doesn't feel like a terrible army to play against or play with right Um that it really leans into being like wacky gits Um because they're supposed to be like the fun wacky dudes obstruction Um, you know, I hope when we ever would see a corn book that like man, does it feel like corn like I I am stoked about whatever that book is going to be Um, uh I did up. We've got 10 factions 11 if we take ceo uh, city's of sigmar to be donbringer crusades So that would fit what we've generally been getting In terms of the number of battle zones in a year. Sure. Hey. Hey, I'm gonna be that guy. It's been 94 minutes We need to wrap No, that's fine. Very fine. Tom Yes, I appreciate it. Tom. Thank you for taking good care of me For all of you out there. Thank you so much drop your thoughts on the state of the current game What you would want to change put that down in the comments hit like if you haven't already subscribe I think we're either about to or just crossed 90k subscribers on the channel, which is amazing. Thank you all so much for the support It's like just incredible and I love everybody for for continuing to show up here every week It's it's an amazing honor to do this uh, so Thank you all very much. Don't forget if you want to support the channel. There's a patreon down below You can do that. It's focused on hobby and taking your next steps on your hobby journey There's also a merch store where if you want to get your votes in for team tyler versus team tom We had some funny discussions about that right before the show Uh, then uh, you you could model my shirt. That's right. Yes, exactly Uh, thank you everyone for all the great comments tonight. Uh, and so Uh, really really good thoughts, uh as to Uh, the game. I hope everybody has some fun games to Warhammer. I hope everybody gets some good painting in Uh, as always, thank you so much for watching. We'll see you next wednesday