 Ackerman, host of Journeys of the Mind, and I am very happy that we have Scott Kikaui here who's going to discuss his novel Red Dirt in the context of Hawaii during the Red Scare. So, you know, this is a novel, a mystery novel about a, you know, murderer, and we have our lead character, you know, being a detective who uncovers the murder through the pages, but there's a lot more about, that one learns about Hawaii in the post-World War II period. And of course, Scott, this book follows his wonderful book, Kona Wins. So, the first question I have for you, Scott, is, you know, both in Kona Wins you mentioned Dante and Dante's Inferno and the Trilogy, and then your book, this book begins with a medieval twist and the Sword of the Stone, you know, Sir Thomas Mallory. And I'm wondering, what in your background made you in these, you know, 20th century novels refer to medieval history? And by the way, I think it's wonderful. Well, thank you. Thanks, Carl, for having me back, too. I had a lot of fun the last time, and it's great to have a second opportunity to do this. I was a medieval and Renaissance study minor in college. I majored in Islamic studies, and the minor came about because I could double up on a lot of those credits, because a lot of Islamic history and theology were during the same period. NYU gave me credit for a medieval Renaissance study minor, and I filled up classes with medieval literature, with early Christian theology, with architecture, with art history, and things like that, that helped me cobble together a minor in medieval and Renaissance studies. So Dante's Divina Commedia was the work that I referenced in the first book, and I thought it might be fun to use Mallory, which is kind of like a side work that we kind of picked up in the mysticism class. We only touched on it a little, but I was fascinated by kind of the disjointed narrative of Mallory's work, where some of the stories tend to repeat themselves, but they overlap, and they give you a different interpretation. And the fascinating thing I think about Le Morte d'Artours is that it is an allegory. Just as Dante's Divina Commedia is a satire, I think that Mallory's work is an allegory for good government in a way. When he talks about the king and the land being one, it's really kind of cautionary, all the way up until the conflict at the end with Mordred. So I thought it was appropriate to use it as a backdrop for this story, which examines a lot of the House Un-American Activities Committee investigations here in Hawaii and culminating with the so-called Hawaii 7 trial in 1953. So I thought that was a work that I could superimpose over the historic reality here. You know, as a background, I'm going to take you even farther back to HUAC. In this book, you also mentioned the historical setting of World War II in Hawaii, where we had Marshall Wallet Law and barbed wire everywhere to quote your book. And why is this setting? Because you discussed HUAC in a lot of detail, and one of its members coming out to Hawaii and trying to influence our wonderful detective. So what is it about World War II and then Marshall Law and then sort of going into the HUAC era that fascinated you the most? Well, I think that World War II was a pivotal point in territorial history. I think that it's one of those events that gets a big mention in Hawaii history in popular culture, where almost nothing else during the territorial period does in a way. We have an awareness, generally speaking, about the end of the monarchy, the overthrow, the annexation, and then really no mention of anything in those intervening years between that time and our time today except for World War II. And one might make the argument that the World War II in the context of American history was probably the most important thing that happened in Hawaii during the territorial period. Locally, it was also a period where we saw a lot of change and that was due to the influx of labor and the influx of money to the islands or I should maybe say the island to Oahu for the war effort. So it was a military yes, but with the military came a lot of civilian labor from the mainland as well, shipyard and logistics to fuel the war in the Pacific. But the effect it had here was it kind of changed the economy forever. It at one point, neighbor islands used to be on equal economic and political footing and the war kind of just propelled Oahu into the forefront and kind of made it the center of everything. And it almost really kind of remains that way today. And that was because of World War II. World War II also had a consequence too of changing I think the mindset of a lot of local people who were previously existing under really colonial conditions, especially on the plantations where the war effort brought about a lot of employment opportunity and almost in an urgent force sense for those that were on the plantations and those that had been in the prior system from the beginning of the last century until about the point of World War II where suddenly they were off the plantations, they were working in the shipyard, they were driving trucks of supplies and food for the military and they knew a different employment reality and economic reality and even after the war it wasn't the same. And I think that that's what precipitated a lot of the successful labor movements, the strikes in particular the late 1940s, the dock worker strike, the sugar worker strike that weren't, you know, there were strikes before World War II but they weren't really that successful. They picked up a lot of steam after the war because we've now had a larger populace that was involved in labor that was off the plantations and exposed to new ideas. So in that sense World War II was pivotal and I think that the economy that followed that and precipitated statehood may have been a direct result of the war effort and how it changed this island in particular for good. And you mentioned the labor and labor unions greatly in this book and you also mentioned labor leaders and I was really fascinated by Koji Ariyoshi and can you tell us a little bit about Koji Ariyoshi because that was a real person wasn't it? I mean wasn't he a real life historical person? Yes Koji Ariyoshi was a real life person and he's almost a larger than life individual you know. He went overseas during the war. It must have been the MIS or because he was an interpreter and he found himself in the Asian theater I think in places like Southeast Asia and China of all places and really touched history out there came home and he founded the Honolulu Record which was a weekly newspaper which was supposed to be a political answer source to the established Honolulu Star Bulletin and Honolulu Advertiser at the time, Haulio Newspapers with a more right-wing bent and communism became the new threat after World War II after the Axis powers were put down the new national security threat became communism. The nation turned its attention to communism and this was the start of the Cold War with the Soviet Union and Koji Ariyoshi's record became actually the sole iconoclastic voice in the press and he became one of the Hawaii Seven along with Jack Hall, Dwight Freeman, John Reineke and others Charles Fujimoto and his wife Eileen. To be put on trial for Smith Act charges fighting the violent overthrow of the US government as it were by the House and American activities, committees, investigators and Koji for his defense you know when he would spend time in Asia during the war he actually befriended a lot of folks in the Allied effort who actually came to his defense after the war when he was on trial for Smith Act violations or alleged Smith Act violations. I believe it was Madame Chen Kaishik who put up one of her dresses for auction in order to raise funds for his legal defense. This is a fascinating guy who touched history and one of my characters, Jido Machida who's a main character in the book, is modeled on Koji Ariyoshi but this is this is one of those devices I employ where I don't like James Elroy and others like to bring in actual real-life historic figures into their work because Elroy as famously said you can write anything about anyone you want as long as they are dead and that's kind of a legal truism but here in Hawaii we're a smaller place. Now here in Hawaii it's in poor taste I think to write about folks when they still have family left alive or friends left alive who remember these people and I always say you know it's in poor taste because even if you don't disparage these individuals in your work and you portray them in a very good light you always run the risk of getting something about them wrong because there's always somebody that's going to know these people better than you ever will so my device for doing this is to make a character that's based on them a fictitious character based on them and mention the real-life person in the work so that they exist side by side with their real-life inspiration and everybody knows it's not really Koji Ariyoshi but it's somebody that whose life is really similar to his and his character is based on his so yeah that he was a really fascinating individual and the research I did at the UH West Oahu's Center for Labor Education and Research or CLEAR Dr. Bill Pughett opened up a whole world of information on Koji Ariyoshi and and the others in the Hawaii Southern that are referenced in this book so I was really lucky that way. Well and you know some people if you talk to labor union guys today and you know a lot of the great benefits that we have in Hawaii whatever field you're in if you're if you're a working person it's because of those days and the big struggles there but I was really struck by the stories that you had built about Francis Yoshikawa's work to Columbia and you know I want to know how you feel the story of Professor Levinsky and his daughter Rachel who Francis had dated fit into your story about Huok and I you know that's it's very poignant because one of your lead characters who's you know you admire this character you know he's such a good detective and he's honest and he's forthright and his sister is a hard-caring member of the Communist Party according to you and in Pololo and and yet you know he's kind of ashamed about his role that he played with Huok in Columbia and I just want to get more from you about that because I I found that a very poignant part of the book. Well thank you and it was something that kind of came out of a little research I did about Huok investigations on college campuses and they weren't very specific and the information that I uncovered was not case specific either they just talked about FBI agents and Huok investigators going on to college campuses questioning students questioning professors but I thought I would like something about this detective's past that dovetails nicely into the overall theme and it's noir after all I think that even good guys are not a hundred percent good and bad guys are not a hundred percent bad that's one of the hallmarks of the noir genre but it was I wanted to create an interesting conflict that here was a veteran who served the country that through the rest of his kind behind barbed wire that did it maybe not for the most patriotic motives and that's what my research we revealed too that a lot of them had enlisted maybe out of pure fear that the rest of their family will be taken for internment if they didn't do something of the sort which is what this guy falls into into that category but you know it makes war an individual who is not a caricature of service to country because sometimes that country's lines get blurred in terms of what happens and what their definition of service to country is and that was a dialogue in his dorm room with this with this huac investigator about serve your country one more time and he begins to wonder what is that service and and of course this was an interesting way to bring in that Japanese value of Gidi which he's taught by his his late father of obligation and it's and it's obligation which is not necessarily loyalty per se it's not that simple and he has to make a choice what is obligation was Gidi especially if it's your obligation to your country whom do you serve and whom do you sell out is it your country or is it your friends and he made a really painful choice to go with his country over his friends to sell his friends to the huac to the government to save himself which is why he you know and that's the way he views it which is why he has lived with a lot of guilt and shame over the years and when we come to that same head later on in the story he has to make another decision that's similar and you know this is all this all happened in the process of writing it I did not plan it out and I thought oh this works very nicely but and part of the personalities of these folks and at least the atmosphere came out of my college years in New York although they were decades after the events that take place in this book but the weather you know the groups I interacted I had so many friends from New York City who are Jewish so many friends were Italian Irish Black and you know and all from the various neighborhoods all with various backgrounds and but but all uniquely New Yorkers and I thought this is a chance to kind of show what a local boy's exposures like to things like that and and it was a window of opportunity that I that I took advantage of that's really that's really wonderful and what you did when you're explaining the word Giddy was I noticed that you then you started talking about the 47 Ronin and I thought that was a very nice way to explain that term and the other thing that you do besides really exposing the history of of Hueck is there's a cultural part of your book that I found very interesting and you know in chapter three and in other places throughout the book you make pains to be to show that your lead character Detective Yoshikawa is polite I mean he opens the door for his girlfriend he lays down his coat and so my question to you is this your nostalgia for a better time when when people were a little bit more civil to one another because and and let me let me spill the beans a little bit here you know I'm an old-fashioned guy and I like to do that I like to know when my wife gets in the car I open the door for and you know when I when when we get back in the car I open the door for and close the door and that sort of thing and you know a lot of people think I'm being very old-fashioned so I just wanted to ask you could that caught my eye well good for you for doing that yes it is a longing for a different time and the practices of that time I have what you might call an aesthetic obsession with that period with the 1950s with what I call pre rock and roll America I think that my longing though I think is for the the form of that period not for its essence in other words not for the not for the politics of the time not for the the social realities of the time but for the form of the time when when both men and women still wore hats outdoors and they would remove them when they came indoors it was a time where manners counted you know I was in Japan earlier this year and it kind of inspired me to write an article of sorts with the Kyoto journal they accepted a proposal of mine to do this but I was fairly an American undercover in Kyoto because Americans are the worst dressed individuals overseas I have to just come out and say that today they are the worst dressed individuals and when they visit a temple like humus Udera they're going in camouflage shorts and an NBA jersey and shouting at the top of their lungs and taking pictures of everything and I'm thinking well would they do this in Notre Dame de Paris or would they do this in the Sultan Ahmed mosque and the sad answer is yes probably in those sacred spaces Americans also trample everything in favor of of social media fame or whatever I long for a more gentile time when people treat each other with respect and and yes I'm a bit old fashioned that way I think dressing well shows respect for the person that you're interacting with that you appreciate that person enough to have your to have your appearance be presentable I think we've lost a lot of that and I think that the pandemic has sped that on quite a bit as we lost touch with each other in a real sense and now that we are trying to feel our way back into things we have an opportunity here I think to rebuild better the way we interact with each other but I I don't know that it's going to happen but but I'm I'm I'm happy though that I have allies like you and in my corner and trying to bring this back well you know when the senate was discussing whether they should have a tie rule and the time code rule one of the one of the broadcasters on one of the you know major stations said well if you watched how people dress on planes you know and when they've been traveling over the past 20 years this is really something that you know I've often traveled by by plane and you know back when there are no when there are prop planes and my father was a pilot for pan-american and so you know I used to get you know I used to use the bottom line dress would be slacks and you know a button down shirt and now people and I still dress that way when I get on a plane but it's I'm you know I'm the best dressed person there for by far and so I'm always amazed with people come on with slippers and shorts and t-shirts and I'm thinking to myself really did you just come from the beach but I you know it's because of old-fashioned you know I was saying you know you're getting old or Carl that's now like in Conan wins and I think it may have played a bigger role in Conan wins but you really discuss you know there's there's you know class differences and in one section you talk about the Camelot Club you know and that of course that could be easily replaced by other names of clubs here in Hawaii and you link it to Punahou school Manoa and the and its fear of this club sphere of the yellow yellow horde quote unquote and so what did you mean by that and what do you think were the major class divisions economic class divisions and probably social divisions during this period that you love so much well I think that we had a unique situation here where even for Asian Americans if you just take a single group like Japanese Americans at the time they made a 40 percent of the territory's population and this was a this was a political reality which is on the verge of happening in the night in 1954 there were pivotal elections here which changed the power structure forever and this is due in large part of the fact that Nisei voters came of age they were American citizens by birth and they could finally exercise their right to vote and what that did was it it removed and some would say almost for good the Republican party as the dominant political party in Hawaii politics and replaced it with the Democratic party with very few exceptions over the years this has turned out to be a truism and this all started in 1954 and this this was part of my reason for choosing 53 at least to initially set the books that I wrote in that year because we are on the eve of a drastic political change and there was a patrician society here it was largely howly but it was it was partly native Hawaiian too but you know that upper echelon of a native Hawaiian society those with land those with wealth that they could trace that back to the monarchy to the great mahele and their power structure was on the verge of well maybe not collapse but a replacement and I wanted to convey that there was a palpable feeling that a lot of this was soon going to be passed and that was relatable I think to one of the themes in the Mallory's Lamorte d'Arture where Camelot had its day in the sun and that's all going to be a memory soon right with whether or not Mordred's coup is successful it's going to change the structure of of how England or the or the mythical England of Mallory's work was run and there's a there are a lot of poignant stanzas about that and I thought this for for those that were kind of in that in those circles the sugar and shipping money circles that that's about to change and it was about to change not just politically but economically because agriculture would soon be replaced with with tourism as our our main the main driver of our economy and today if you drive out to Eva you won't see that sea of green cane that that you used to see decades ago it's all developed it's all turned into housing it's all brown and this was a result of the replacement of those crops with other things because because our economy had changed and you can you can trace us back to the same era so that's why I think it was really interesting era it's it's why on the verge of change and in my later books it becomes why during change this is that you know you concluded we've run out of time but Scott Kikawa this is so wonderful because you've given us not just you know a discussion of your wonderful novel which I suggest everyone reads red dirt and his previous novel cona wins um please everyone in our audience do pick up those novels but also a once that one kind recommendation for you since you're so involved with the medieval and renaissance period there's a renaissance series that is available that was run and jay fidel the wonderful mensch and I interviewed jennifer mcnaab who does this as a professor of renaissance studies that she's she's quite a droid and probably the leader as randy starne was I think at berkeley for many years she's in northern iowa but she's really a you know the renaissance woman about the renaissance that's what I could say but I'm going to leave the last word to you um Scott kikawa master novelist and master historian I'm going to leave the last word to you well thanks Carl I'm not sure I deserve those titles but you know my work was never meant to be a lesson in history but it's kind of turned out that way because I was the first student of that lesson in my research I had uncovered a lot of things that were not discussed by people who lived through the era including my own parents including people that I knew and my parents knew very well because it was all current events it was it was something that they didn't think was worth mentioning but manifested itself in a lot of their attitudes and a lot of their personal prejudices and preferences and the more I read the more I came to the realization that there was a reason for for all of that that that there were things that were suddenly explained to me that were never explained to me growing up and I think that everybody can have that same epiphany if they would just look into the past here look into their own past wherever that is and and I think that you will learn more about yourself and about your your surroundings than you than you ever would have if you had never gone back and done the homework on it I had an impetus for doing it I wrote books but I think that that I think everybody should be compelled to take a look at it what had come before especially in your own history and I'm I'm glad that a few people have taken up my books and read them and if they had learned anything then then all my effort was worth it that's really wonderful this is Carl Ackerman host of journeys of the mind and we're glad to have experienced Scott Kikawa's journey of the mind with his two wonderful books once again Kona Wins and Red Dirt Ahui Ho