 What a great group here to talk about church government, whoo. I know this is a unique group because you know why you're in the room and you still came. For those of you joining us online, wonderful to have you in our workshop, getting your house in order, how biblical church government can save your bacon and give you joy in ministry. Welcome Pastor Steve Goundry from South Florida and so many of others of you that are joining online electronically who can't be here in person. So I do hope that you got a set of the handouts. Also on the table out there are a couple of books that we want to make available to you. So Shameless Commercial, just as we start. Okay, ready for Shameless Commercial? This book is called Journey to Authenticity. How many of you have read this book? How many of you would say it's a pretty good book? Helped you? All right. So this is about helping you understand your spiritual life stages as you grow in Christ. Is anyone interested who doesn't have this book that wants to own this book? I'll throw it at you right there, right behind you if you'd hand that to you. This book is called Journey to the Father and it's subtitled Discovering God's Lavish Love for You. My wife Becky and I wrote this. It's about healing your father wound and understanding how God is an approachable loving father in your life. Who wants this? All right. Here you go, sir. Hand that back. Ethan, thank you. These are available out here. A $10 each is slightly above my cost. We're not making much money, but just want to get resources into your hands, okay? So great to have this time with you. If we can shut those doors, I just want to make sure we aren't disturbed. Let's pray. Father, thank you for each person here. Thank you for everyone who's online as we talk about this vital, important subject. I pray that you would give me an instructed tongue of wisdom. Take me beyond what I even know on this topic so that the church might be equipped. I pray for hearing and receptive hearts and that fruit that is born in this would bear fruit in churches, in church governments, and order in your house so that there can be glory in your house. In Jesus' name and everyone said amen. So the scripture that I'd like to launch from is at the top of your first page there. Look at what Paul said in writing to Titus. The reason I left you in Crete is that you might put in order, everyone say put in order. There's something important about order. See, the apostle Paul was a church planting monster, wasn't he? But he knew that the very first thing you've got to do after you plant a church is get the church in order. Titus, I sent you there with a mission. Put in order, what was left unfinished. That means, by the way, if your government isn't in order, you're not finished. You're an incomplete church. So Paul says put in order what we left unfinished. Paul was great at going, preaching, planting a church, leaving town or being thrown out of town. Either way, there was a church planted wherever Paul went, and he says there's stuff that was left unfinished. Go appoint elders in every town. It doesn't say elect them. It doesn't say vote for them. It says appoint them. We're gonna talk about that in every town just as we directed you. My history with church government is I was raised Baptist. Any other Baptist costals willing to admit it in the room? Oh, I love it because you're born in the word, and then at some point along the line, maybe the spirit of the Lord comes and infuses everything that you knew in the word. So that's my background. But I remember as a kid, church government, the Baptist church. And I remember playing in the church basement, waiting for mom and dad to get done with a church board meeting, and I would go upstairs, are you done yet? And there was a brawl. There was a fight. And because it was congregational church government, everyone had a voice. And they were, I don't know what they were fighting about, but my first exposure was these people who worshiped together on Sundays are really fleshly in the board meeting. And it was like a congregational meeting gone awry. Fast forward to when I was in Bible College, Ken Somerall, Liberty Bible College, Pensacola, Florida, and there I was as a young Bible college student learning about elders, deacons, the five-fold ministry, and how all of that works together in what he called organized flexibility. And so I read the book and I started out in ministry in my, the first assignment the Lord gave me was in Southern Illinois at a church that believed in elders and deacons and five-fold ministry. So I was happy to be there. But as I was there, and I was there three years, the first year it was bliss and honeymoon, the second year I smelled a rat, and the third year I met the rat. And that's kind of the way that assignment went. And I said, Lord, why do you have me in this church? He says, Sonny, I'm gonna teach you some things from negative example rather than positive example. Don't leave yet. So you know it's important to not leave, pull the ejection seat before the Lord says leave, even if you're in a painful environment. What I learned there was there was one apostle over that church. He was a great teacher. You know who I'm talking about. He was a wonderful teacher. And he would come in from time to time, he would teach. And, but the church had some, I was a young guy invited to meet with the, in the elders meetings. And because there was a problem in the, with between the pastor, myself, all the elders, myself, were trying to address some character issues in the pastor because he was leading with manipulation, control, dominance, intimidation. And that stuff is hard to define when you're trying to bring correction to it, especially if it's a senior pastor. So all of the elders were like seeing it, but we were trying to address it. We came to an impasse, so we called in the apostle. And the apostle, while he had a teaching gift, he could not manage governance. He couldn't manage governance if it was a wet paper bag and he was trying to break out, okay? So he was like in a five hour elders meeting from hell. Have you ever been to elders meeting from hell? So this was a five hour elders meeting where there was this impasse and the apostle was sitting in our midst. And he says, well, I just wanna give you my teaching on the keys of David. And if I can give you the teaching on the keys of David, everything will be all right. You know, if the only tool in your toolbox is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. So this apostle, while he had one gift of teaching, he didn't have the gifts to get us out of the impasse we were facing. You know what happened? Some weeks later, I had the youth group on a retreat over the weekend. That Sunday while I was gone, all the elders, after the preaching, the elders got up without notifying the pastor. I mean, this was ugly. They said, we have an announcement to make. They all got up, all the elders resigned. The treasurer resigned and the worship leader resigned. And I came back from the youth conference to a church that had blown up, church government. Some of you have very similar stories. I wanna tell you, we don't often appreciate or think much about church government until we really need it. The time to set your house in order is now before there is crisis. The time to think through processes is before you actually need them. Okay, on your cover sheet, there's four pillars I'd like to just posit that I believe that are structural pillars for any local church. And by the way, those of you who are listening online, if you don't have access to these hard copy notes, they're rather extensive. I'd love to get these into your hands. If you would send an email to info at radiant.network, info at radiant.network and we will get you these hard copy notes electronically. Four structural pillars for your church. A clear doctrinal statement, really important because you gotta know what is sound doctrine, what is false doctrine, what do you believe. Number two, an understanding of and commitment to biblical church government. This is what we're talking about today, specifically, and I'm being very hopeful that we can begin to scratch the surface of these two sub points under what is biblical church government. Number one, the establishment of functioning local eldership and number two, formation of relational apostolic oversight. Those are the two big ideas. I wanna give you some tools today and we're not gonna go through all of this handout but I wanted to give you tools to walk out the door so that you can read them on your own time. Number three, I believe that a pillar is functional church bylaws. Yeah, articles of incorporation, if you get your 501c3, that's great but with that you need bylaws. Bylaws state, how are we going to function? What is the governance of the church? And in the bylaws, how do you appoint new elders? What happens if the pastor falls into sin? What if he falls into doctrinal error? Who is your oversight? All these things need to be laid out in your bylaws which is a whole workshop in and of itself. Number four, compelling and clear mission vision values. Pastors, church leaders, if your church hasn't taken the time to establish mission vision values, it would be greatly helpful to you not because they are an Indian themselves but they help you get a nomenclature, a concept for this is who we are that makes us unique from the church down the street. You know, the church down the street might have very similar doctrine to you and that's fine but what makes your church unique is your value system. For example, at Radiant, we say we value the presence of God and robust theology and relationships and we value family and all these things that we state, we've given words to them. So these are four pillars and we're gonna talk about the second one in particular. So the next sheet in your handout talks about the vital role of elders in the local church. Let's go through some of this together. Acts 14, 21 through 23 and they preach the gospel in that city and won a large number of disciples. Then they return to Lister Iconium and Antioch, strengthening the disciples and encouraging them to remain true to the faith. We must go through many hardships to enter the kingdom of God, they said. But look at this, Paul and Barnabas appointed elders for them in each church and with prayer and fasting committed them to the Lord in whom they had put their trust. Now here's a few facts about elders. Elders are not only a New Testament reality, they're an Old Testament reality. As a matter of fact, the Jews carried that into synagogue practice. But the first elders, you see, Moses appointed the 70 elders at God's direction and the direction of a wise father-in-law. Elders next are the governing body of the local church. Let's say that together. Elders are the governing body of the local church. I truly believe that is scriptural. They always appear in plural, not one elder, elders. Or if you will, eldership. A plurality of mutually submitted individuals. Scripture indicating the function and team. The senior leader or pastor while an elder is unique among the eldership in the scope of leadership, vision, and equipping. Why do I say that? There are some that say, well, we are all co-equal. While I believe in plurality of eldership, I don't believe in co-equality of eldership. Let me explain that. In the house, there is going to be a five-fold equipping ministry gift. That person is likely going to be a pastor. Might be a prophet pastor, teacher pastor, apostolic pastor. There is a unique calling from Jesus who gave gifts to people when he ascended on high, apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor, and teacher to equip God's people for works of service. This is a distinct calling from Jesus to be an equipper in the church. Elders are governance of the church. So while you have governance in the church, you've got a unique person sitting in your midst who is a five-fold ministry leader, equipper. That person must be identified and released to function in that role, okay? And we can have questions as we go along here. We're going to give some air to some of this. There are qualifications given in scripture for elders in the Bible, 1 Timothy 3, Titus 1, in which underscore the importance of character, maturity, spiritual stability. As a church grows, the role and function of elders may change. I noticed this as a young pastor. When we came to our church in Minnesota, it was 14 adults. It was like a church plant, really. I was so thankful because I was a young man and my predecessor, who happened to be my father-in-law, Denver Jones, established an eldership team. They were all older than me. Well, which wasn't hard because I was like 25, came to the church. So while the church had a functioning eldership, as God answered our prayers and the church grew, I noticed that some of those elders did great governing a church of, say, 50 to 75 people. But when we grew to 500 people, it was like overload, you know? And so that's fine. That doesn't make them a bad person. It just means that it's okay for you to have an understanding of elders can come and go off the board because we used to have a mentality of once an elder, always an elder, an elder for life. And some of you have your church government set up like that. I don't fault you for that, but I will say it's been my learning that it's healthy to give air to the eldership and to give a back door and a proper exit, an honorable exit for elders whose life, their life circumstances change. May they might have an illness in the family. They might have other issues. They might, like I described, the church might have outgrown their ability or desire to lead as an elder. That's fine. So what we modified from elder for life, we modified to elder for a minimum of two years after that a self and peer review annually. So we would do a fall retreat and we'd all sit there together and we'd say, has God led you to serve again as an elder? And we would actually review one another. How are you doing? Are you still meeting the biblical qualifications for an elder? Is your heart still burning for serving the church in this way? Because if it's not, you really shouldn't serve here. And so that's okay to cycle off. All right, here's the five D's of eldership, very, very simply put. Ready, you see them in your notes. Direction, doctrine, discipline, discipleship, dollars. And I unpack each of those in your notes about what that means. These are the big 30,000 foot ideas that elders really need to make sure are going well in the local church. You don't have to over complicate it, but this is, from my perspective, what we see. Some churches appoint female elders while others see the role of governance, headship as biblically male in the home and in the church. And I'm sure that if we were to take a poll, some of you would see that differently. That's fine, that's what we call an open hand issue. You know, there are certain closed hand issues like sound doctrine, biblical authority, the virgin birth, the trinity. Those are closed hand issues, and we're not debating that. Open hand issues are, you may see that differently, you may practice that differently, we can still walk together. So I know that in this room, people would see that a different way. And you have female elders. But here's my note to you senior pastor. The right elder can be your biggest asset. The wrong elder can be the biggest pain in your asset. So just be aware of that and guard your assets, pastors. Yes, turn the page over and I'm gonna give you some nuts and bolts on how to raise up elders. So you might say, we need elders. Or you might have just planted a church and you're like, well, the church is new. I don't know who's qualified as an elder. Well, that's a reality. So let's talk about how to create a mulch box for raising up elders. Here's some thoughts. As a senior leader, be personally and doctrinally convinced of the vital role of elders in your local church. Begin praying for these individuals to be prepared by God for their task. Do you know as a young man, from time to time the Holy Spirit led me before I was a pastor, to pray for those who would walk with me in ministry. And I'd be praying for people. It was gonna be 10, 12 years before I met them. So believe that eldership is scriptural and begin to pray them in. Number two, create eldership on ramps. How? Give potential elders responsibility for a major ministry function. Watch them, interact with them, honestly assess them. Number three, church planters will often not be able to start with local elders in place. Operate with non-local elders while you do the work of raising up elders from within your church. And this is one of the things we do with Radiant Network. We help local churches because we have relational connections with one another where you might not have elders ready to step into that role, but we can provide you with some non-local elders who on Zoom and we can connect with you monthly or quarterly and stand in temporarily. I said temporarily, right, as eldership. Next, follow the duck principle in selecting elders. If it walks like an elder and quacks like an elder, it's probably an elder. So how do you recognize an elder? If they're lobbing support, lobbing leadership into your sphere, if they're coming up with vision, coming up with ideas and strategy, keep your antenna up. It's like, that person has government on them. That person's not just a faithful attender. That person is a pillar in the church. You know what a pillar is? Something that is connected to the unshakable foundation of the building and can also hold the weight of the building. That is a spiritual pillar. You're looking for pillars, not flaky people who sometimes shift and move and all of that. So use that discern potential elders by observing their care for and commitment to the flock before they're given a title. Don't assume that because an individual is a leader in the community, hello, or business world that they have the character and spiritual maturity to be an elder. Similarly, not everyone with a strong ministry gift has strong governance gifts, no the difference. I learned that the hard way because I'm like, oh, you're a great minister. You got a great passion for Jesus. Come onto the eldership board because we need to lead this thing together. And you know what will happen? If you get a bunch of ministry-minded people on an eldership board, they will be totally frustrated. They're like, I wanna be out preaching the gospel. Give me my bullhorn and let me go straight preaching or let me go visit people in the hospital. Let me do my small group. And that's fine. That's a ministry gift you hear. And the church needs to be flowing with ministry, right? There are very few unique people in your church that have governance callings. Yes, they're supposed to minister. Yes, they can minister. But there's a governance. Their shoulders are made for carrying governance. Can I hear an amen in the room? Be as clear as possible, number six, for potential elders in regard to scope of responsibility, term of service, internal structures, et cetera. For example, what is a realistic monthly time commitment you're asking for? I think this is just a common courtesy. And you need to think it through. You need to be specific so that if you're asking that person to serve as an elder, you can say this is exactly what I'm asking. And we're gonna show you a tool here in just a minute. Number seven, create a standard of introduction process using questionnaire followed by face-to-face meeting. Interview the elder's spouse as well. This is very important. You know, if the elders functioning and the spouse is not happy, it will lead to a train wreck, won't it? So what we need to do is make sure the spouse is in full spiritual agreement, time commitment agreement, that that spouse can handle it. And frankly, that that spouse is spiritually qualified because whether you like it or not, that spouse is gonna go to a different standing in the church when the other partner is elevated to be an elder. So that's very important. What we have done is we have a three month to assess their fit where they actually meet with the elders, discuss how this appointment will be processed with the congregation. And then eight, any potential elder must be in full-hearted agreement with the doctrine, values, culture, and direction of the church. Good elders are not yes men, but they must be in solid agreement with the basic DNA of the church. Here's a trustworthy statement at 1 Timothy 3-1. Whoever aspires to be an overseer, an elder, desires a noble task. So we're talking about noble people. Noble people. So this is a tool, we're not gonna go through it. It's called elder application. This, in my personal world, this could be printed with blood because we got to a point in our church. We said, let's bring on a different kind of elder, a different kind of elder. Let's open the windows, let's stir things up. And there was a guy who was leading our men's ministry really well, Pastor Steve. And back then we would, when you take on a major ministry of the church, we have you sign a statement. I am a member, I am a tithing member of the church, and I hold to these values and doctrines, sign. Date it. And so that guy had been leading in a major ministry. We invited him on to the eldership team. And the very first meeting, we were discussing some things, and he leans back, says, well, I don't know if I really believe in tithing. Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. I'm like, oh my, what have we just done? And then as the months went on, it was like, then he didn't follow this, he didn't believe that, that value, he doesn't value that, we value that. And it began, it became so toxic in that eldership team full of good leaders that they all wanted to quit because he was making that meeting so toxic. It was horrible. So this has served us well. This came out of it. And you might think, well, that's a very extensive. I'd rather have you do your homework on the front end of onboarding an elder than be surprised like I was somewhere down the line. So what this does, if you just look at it, it lays all of it out. A lot of this is direct quotes from our bylaws about how elders function, how they're appointed, some scriptures, character qualifications, what they do, page four, three there, time commitment for elders, the application process. We actually ask for personal referrals. People who like outside the church, who know you because scripture says if you know this, one of the qualifications, you must be well known, well spoken of, even outside the church in the community. So there are a bunch of questions that we ask them. And you think, well, these are very, what's the big deal? But we had a really great elder candidate fill this page out. I think it's page five. And he said, I was baptized as an infant. In Minnesota, there's a lot of Catholics and Lutherans. Down south, there's a Baptist church on every corner. Up north, there's a Catholic or Lutheran church on every corner. And so you get a lot of people who are baptized as infants and we said, well, you haven't been baptized as a believer, right? No? Well, that's pretty important that you do that. And so we had a sit-down meeting. We said, we don't want you to get baptized to become an elder. We want you to get baptized if you feel with a conviction within yourself that public baptism is an outward sign of the miracle that God has done in your life. So what do you know? Some months later, he said, I wanna be baptized. So he was baptized. Guess what? Some months later, he was on the eldership team. But a simple thing like that, asking questions about, do you tithe? Asking questions about how you're doing doctrinally. The last couple of pages on this forum ask questions of not only your doctrine, but your life. Paul told Timothy, watch your life and your doctrine closely, didn't he? So these are important things to look at when you are onboarding an elder. So take that home, take a look at it. There's another handout which has a lot of scriptures on it, what elders do in a local church. This gives you scriptures for elder functions and you can also take that home as a resource. So let's go ahead and open the floor up. Am I supposed to be done in like two minutes? Oh, half hour, huh? Half hour. I got 30 minutes left, right? Am I right? Okay, so we're right on track because we just talked about elders now in a little while. We're gonna turn a corner and talk about how five-fold ministry functions can strengthen your church. But I wanna open the floor because the best part of teaching is answering questions that you're asking. So I want you to, if you have a thought, a question, maybe something that applies to your local situation, I'd love to field it enough. I can't answer it. There are a lot of smart people in this room that I know can't answer it. Yes, Steve? In our situations. Yes. Great, Pastor Steve, just so I can repeat it so the online guests can hear. Coming out of an assembly, we've got structure, you've got deacons, eldership is gonna be a new hooray for you for thinking about that. I believe we might as well go ahead and use biblical nomenclature for church government. Some people are afraid of that or think they have to make up something hip. If the Bible talks about in Philippians chapter one, verse one and two, where Paul says I'm writing to the saints, elders and deacons of the church, there you have it. So Steve, I would say that if your deacons function, they must be very clear, especially coming out of a mentality that the deacons are the governing body, it has to be totally deconstructed, if you will, not to speak overly dramatic, but it needs to be completely deconstructed so that they understand the new definition of deacon. A deacon is one who serves. That's the way the word is defined. So an eldership is the governing body of the church that oversees even the business aspect. Remember the dollars of the five D's, the dollars. So the way I would put that is make sure you appoint elders that are biblically qualified. Some of them might be your current deacons. That's great, they probably are. But we're changing function, we're changing nomenclature. I think a two-headed monster will get you in trouble. A two-board church can get you in trouble. They got me in trouble. So we had an elderboard and a deacon board and one of our deacons, after the deacons went off the rails, one of the lead deacons says, yeah, it's our job to keep the elders in line. Danger, Will Robinson. Okay, so there you had a deacon board that was like, we're asserting, because we have the checkbook, we're asserting authority just to make sure you guys know, if there is a deacon board or a finance team, if you want to offload the finance team, simply call it a finance team. In other words, help us set up our annual budget, stick to that. A deacon can be anyone who heads up a major ministry, one who serves. And so the elder, what I was gonna say is that wise elder said, I believe, coming through the deacon flop that we had, he says, I've come to the conclusion that deacons are biblical, but deacon boards are not biblical. So the first time you see deacons in scripture is Acts chapter six, right? The table servers. It didn't say that they formed a board of governance. It said that they made themselves available to serve tables. So again, I would avoid a two-headed monster when you look at recreating that. And if there are financial functions that you want to offload, call it a finance team. So, great. Yes, sir. Good for you, Dylan. Awesome. My question would be, I am 26 years old. What advice would you offer to me now in this embryonic stage of planning? I've got, I think there's 10, me and my wife have got 10 families that are gonna be helping us plant right now. We're still like six months out, of course. But what advice would you offer now in this? Governance. Governance advice for a young church planter of 26 years old, awesome. Let the warriors run, man. So this is what I would say, Dylan, that import governance. So go out with your pastor's blessing, which I know you will. Go out because I think there's spiritual authority that's given to you when hands are laid on you and you're sent out. You know, there's a big difference between leaving a church and being sent out from a church. So first of all, be sent out properly with Pastor Bobby's blessing. With that blessing, ask for covering. I love the word covering, it's a protection word. And so because you're gonna be small, you might not have a local eldership team. So ask for blessing, ask for remote covering for a time until you can raise up leaders and begin to work on some of these four pillars because you're planting a church because God's given you a dream in your heart. And that dream probably says, you know what, this is the kind of church I wanna be. What is that? That's values. Values are bubbling up that you want to be that kind of church. Put words to them, put them on paper, make the vision plain so that others can run with it. Those are just a few things. I mean, we need to sit down and have a longer talk, but those are just a couple of thoughts about going for it governance-wise. Yeah, read through this stuff too and call me. Absolutely. Yeah, others. Do we have a question online? Yes. Yes, so good. Thank you, Michelle, for asking that just to repeat the question. Help me make sure I repeat this right. Should elders, what should we be looking for in elders bringing different things to the plate? Elders need to bring all of those things to the table. Wisdom, direction, prayer, they need to be spiritual people who have vision for the house. Now, I think the lead pastor is gonna be the vision carrier and the vision definer. This is the way we put it in the radiant world. Our churches are senior pastor led, eldership governed, staff facilitated, and congregationally equipped. Get that? So we're talking about singular leadership, but singular headship of plural leadership. That's another way to put it. So I would say within that construct, yes, elders need to bring their unique gift. And so I'm sure that if you think, how many of you serve on an eldership team right now? You'd raise your hand and say, I am an elder at a local church, okay. You look around that eldership board, there's different gifts just by the design of how Jesus builds the church, right? Romans 12, there's different gifts even within that. I celebrate those gifts, understand those gifts. See when I said, let's bring on an elder of a different type, a different type of elder, that's kind of what I was thinking about. Someone who could be different in our mix. So elders need to be fully engaged. And here's the thing, if there's a visionary pastor in your mix, that pastor is gonna bring vision, but this is what happens, you make stew. You sit around the campfire and the elder says, or the lead elder, the senior pastor says, this is what I've heard from God. Then all the elders fully engaged, add and remove and help mature and give a good stir to the stew that's being built because you want ownership of vision, right? And when you leave those visionary talks, those prayer meetings, those things that happen, you want full ownership. So a lot of that, if there's a visionary, artful visionary lead pastor, they will understand that part of their goal is to curry vision and gather vision from eldership. Amen? Okay. Thank you for the online question. Anyone else on eldership in the local church? Yes, sir. Can you talk for a while? Yes. Yes. Okay. Yes. A couple of years or so. Absolutely. It's not like, okay, you used to be once an elder, now you're on the trash heap. No. Not at me, okay. No, I know, but here's the thing. If you leave honorably, there's a good chance you can come back. Maybe you need to, maybe you're going through a life change or a spouse is ill or something like that, or if you grow as a person or something happens, by all means, this is a living organism. So yes, good question. Can an elder, just to repeat it, can an elder come back if they've gone off an eldership team, can they come back? Yeah, absolutely. Dr. Frank Harvey. What a wonderful leading question. I love, love, love that. So this is one of my fathers in the Lord, Dr. Frank Harvey from Western North Carolina. Yes, the question was, how do we set elders in? Should there be an ordination setting in, laying on of hands? I'm a big believer in formally recognizing elders before the congregation. Many times you see in the book of Acts, and even Paul, when he was writing to Timothy, when the body of elders laid their hands on you, there was a release of gifting. There was a prophetic word. Now take those prophetic words and fight with them. This is a kind of impartation that happens when we lay hands on people. You are now an elder in this church and we, as an eldership, appoint you, not because you were elected most popular, best heir, best businessman, whatever. No, we see governance on you and so we lay hands on you and sometimes, if possible, you bring an apostolic oversight for that laying on of hands, that impartation in front of the whole congregation, so that the whole congregation says, yep, that person is a leader in our midst and I believe that it's more than a formality when you get set in as an elder or when hands are laid on you. I believe we should really raise our expectations. I think laying on of hands has become either invisible or with low expectation. It's become too common. We need to believe that there's gonna be impartation when we lay hands on people for that governance role, wisdom, courage, wonderful question. Anyone else on eldership, so important, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I worked intimately with one of our radiant churches this last year who was going through a senior pastor change during COVID. I mean, so it was a complicated situation and so that's one of the, the first thing I did when we got on a Zoom call with those elders, as I said, thank you for being pillars and not freaking out because your senior pastor's leaving in the middle of COVID. Now, having said that, let's get to work. I gave them all sorts of tools and we coached them through how to lead during transition, who's gonna be covering what during transition, the absence of that senior pastor. So there are things so that you don't have to reinvent the wheel if there's a senior pastor changeover and then the next question is how are we gonna go about finding a new pastor? What is that search process? What is the interview process? All of this, some very smart people have done this successfully over the years and we can learn from those things. And so one of the things we did is we said, here's some best practices, let's help you and walk you through so that the congregations, elders are shepherds. Acts 20, when Paul spoke to the elders at Ephesus, he said, be shepherds of the flock of God that's under your care. So poiment, shepherds, it's one of the functions of an eldership. One of the things shepherds like to see is sheep at peace. One of the things that will stir sheep to dis-ease is when the senior pastor is leaving. I mean, that's a huge shakeup for the church. Statistically, 30% of the people leave during a senior pastor transition. And that's the best case. I mean, that's a typical scenario. Doesn't have to happen, but I would say there's help from the outside. Now, if you're an independent church kind of trying to make it up as you go, where does an elder go to try to figure out, okay, our senior pastor just left. What do we do now? So I believe there's New Testament apostolic principles for how to handle transition. And you know what? Transition isn't a bad thing. I think it's all right that people are moving and changing. Yes? And so there are certain things that are changing with some of the things that we don't necessarily want the congregation to vote on or do want the congregation to vote on and how we define membership and that sort of thing. And so getting that buy-in from the congregation, church business is sometimes like, people don't like that word, like the church isn't a business, right? The back room of the church, right? It's a reality though. I guess the question would be how, what are some concepts or insight on how to get that congregational buy-in as you present the new constitution and all that sort of stuff. And then really, I mean, the church government put a business side of church that don't like it. First of all, make it spiritual because it is spiritual. You know what we're talking about here is very spiritual. Paul says the things that are lacking set them in order, order. God is a God of love, God is a God of order. So this is all following the character of God. It's all very spiritual. If number two, if you can, get the full support and buy-in of the outgoing pastor, the pastor who's retiring saying, he can be a great asset, just for those of you listening, how do you transition and update your bylaws and functions, governance functions when the church needs to kind of refresh things? So if that outgoing pastor can say, you know what, this new team, they're the governance of the body and I support all these changes and that pastor can say, yeah, let's do this and I've given my input and I'm in full support of that. That's gonna be gold if you can have that, honor that outgoing pastor. But I would say give biblical reason for what you're doing. If you're changing how decisions are made, go to scripture if there's a scriptural principle and I would say, preach on it. Take a couple Sundays and say, we're talking about something very spiritual, it's called church government and there's a lot in this book about how to function governmentally as a church and we wanna do it right and we have the blessing of pastor so and so and this is what we're working on and these are some of the values that we see coming to the top. Have small group meetings, get the input. You know, a congregation is down on what they're not up on so if you can bring them up to speed and give information and get it out there, then they can be more with you. There's much more we could talk about on that and I'd love to, yes sir. I don't know if I can fully speak to all of that but as an elder, you have a governance hat on and as a small group leader, you've got a different hat on and I think there's a real grace to be able to know when to switch hats. We even in our church said, I'm gonna take off my pastor hat and I'm gonna put on my other hat. We actually use that terminology so as a small group leader, you're in touch, I mean your hands are in the wool of the sheep and that's a beautiful thing and so when you come as an elder, you're informed about the state of the flock. Proverbs says know the state of your flocks, right? Pastor Frank and I were just talking about that this morning so as an elder you get one can serve the other, okay? But here's the challenge and all of us probably have seen this. When a small group goes awry, when does a small group go awry? When it becomes insular, siloed and led by someone who's not committed to the vision of the church from which it serves. Now I know this is not you but when it goes awry is when that small group leader says, you know the pastor and elders say this but I have a different opinion, why don't you come follow me? And I mean I've done four accidental church plants in my life. I call them accidental church plants because that's often how they happen. So yes, they in a perfect world let the strengths of both of those hats serve one another. Wonderful questions, let's turn a corner and talk about apostolic life serving your church. Ready? Take out this last sheet and we've got a few more minutes, 10 more minutes. I'd love to have some Q and A on this as well but we're not gonna take a lot of time just run through these and hopefully field some discussion. 10 ways apostles can strengthen the local church. An apostle is a sent one. Ephesians 411 talks about how apostles are those equippers and I'm making a big assumption in a room this size even using the term apostle but my basic running definition of an apostle is someone sent by the head of the church Jesus to equip the saints distinctly for works of service and an apostolic role serves the other four ministry functions an apostle serves a prophet and they interact with the prophet, teacher, pastor and the rest evangelist. Okay, here we go. A true apostle reflect the heart of the first apostle the Lord Jesus Christ. You know, Jesus was called an apostle right here in Hebrews three fix your thoughts on Jesus whom we acknowledge as our apostle. The apostle and high priest of our faith. See, Jesus was apostleed from heaven sent one from heaven to earth. Philippians chapter two, he was sent. So there is very much a heart of Jesus for the church. Number two, apostles are among the equipping gifts to the body. They bring foundational ministry to the local church and help identify callings and other people. Number three, an apostle will often bring a broader kingdom perspective to local church thus infusing life and vision and hope. If you are a wise pastor you will bring in outside apostolic voice to your church from time to time. Why? Because sometimes elderships can get myopic and sometimes we can get focused on our problems. You know what I've discovered? Sometimes an outside apostolic voice can speak one phrase, one concept that unlocks the next 10 years of ministry. The thing that we were like pow, pow, pow, we can't get through it. When you shed some apostolic revelation on that thing it's like bam, oh wow. Boom, let's move in that direction. Do yourself a favor, these are great gifts to the church. Number four, rather than lording it over churches, apostles and body truce servant leadership as they minister. There's been an error in the last 20 years as apostles are beginning to be actually recognized as functioning in the body of Christ. And I would say Pastor Steve that even within the assemblies of God many in your denomination are recognizing the five-fold ministry gifts are today and functioning. We might have called them district overseers or other titles but we're understanding hey, these are real and they help us if we can find a function for them. And so rather than lording it over, so here's the problem. Someone declares themselves an apostle and they are raised up as a lord and they don't come under the church to support it. They lord it and dominate other churches with a heavy hand. You don't see that modeled in the book of Acts. You just don't. You know what you see? That's human nature, that's flesh, that's control, that's unhealthy stuff coming out. That's not the heart of an apostle. Next. Five, apostles help untie not some local church, doctrinal, directional, relational, spiritual. We already talked about that. Number six, different seasons of the local church require different expressions of apostolic input. Now this is interesting. Think about how when you parent, how many of you have raised kids? Let me see your hands if you've raised kids. As a parent, there are times of nominal effect or nominal input and there's other times of high input. Like if Johnny is hitting Susie on the head with a hammer, you have high input. So this is what the way it looks like. High crisis, high input. I don't think you got that. Johnny's hitting Susie on the head with a hammer. High crisis requires high input. Guess what happens in your church? If things are fine, and you see this happening as Paul relates to churches, even as he writes to churches. When he wrote to the churches of the region of Galatia, was that a high crisis or low crisis? What you know about what was going on in Galatia? Pop quiz, high crisis. The Judaizers were preaching another gospel. High crisis, right? Paul comes in and says those Judaizers who want you to be circumcised in order to be right with God, they need to go all the way and emasculate themselves. And I'll let you do the common translation of what Paul was talking about. So when there's, same thing with women in the church. Women in the church at Ephesus, high crisis. There was a high level of disorder and dysfunction with the church at Ephesus. So when Paul writes a corrective word, same with the Corinthian church. High disorder, high restraint correctiveness. So you don't always see that level of correctiveness, but you know what? Apostles understand that. We need to step up to the table with a big stick because we need to exert apostolic authority. That's not always the case. Most of the time it's very affirming, very fatherly, very nurturing, same like parenting. Parenting, 90% of your time as a parent is nurturing, providing yada yada, but there are those times. So that's the principle I'm talking about. All right, number seven. The level of apostolic, oh, this is so important. I see this all the time. The level of apostolic release, everyone say release. In a local church, hinges on the level of apostolic revelation, everyone say revelation, embodied in its senior leaders. The local elders hold primary care for the context of the local church. Translocal apostolic ministry comes alongside to aid, train, guide, instruct. There is very much wealth of wisdom within an apostle, but sometimes it may go untapped because it is undervalued, under-released. Come on. And you know what? If the local elders and specifically the pastor says, this is an apostolic voice into our church and we honor it, is that? And we hear that, is that? And I think it's in your notes. John Bevere says, here's a principle. When I go into a place anywhere in the world, if there's a high honor, there's high release of anointing. When I go into a place, there's low honor, there's low release of anointing. He's not making it up. Same is true with any of the five-fold ministry gifts you have. Receive them as gifts from God. It's honor. It's the principle of honor and honor is the language of the kingdom. Can I hear an amen? Number eight, apostles work best in teams. Imagine that, just like elders work in teams. Here's, if you forget everything else I've said about apostolic input, I believe every local church should have an orbit. Everyone say orbit? An orbit of apostolic input. Remember when I said I was a youth pastor and there was one apostle of the church? That one apostle came from time to time and brought apostolic input. So if this microphone is the earth of your church, there should be an apostolic orbit and you know what, that one apostle has specific gift mix. Then there should be another apostle in your orbit and this is what happens. They come close, they go distant, they come close, they go distant and there should be probably another apostolic orbit in your church. All of these understand that they have apostolic authority and oversight in your church and they're all uniquely, distinctly gifted. I call that an apostolic orbit. You see that happening in the book of Acts in the early church. So that's what we talk about. Number nine, why is apostolic leaders can distinguish between preference and principle when giving direction? A lot of this we saw in Pastor Lee just addressed it in his last session. You know what was so schismatic in the church? I had pastors like calling me in tears. People are leaving my church because I'm asking them to wear face masks or because I'm not on a political bandwagon. I cannot believe this. See, why is apostolic leaders can distinguish between preference and principle? That's where we lose perspective even as Christians interfacing with one another. If I make my preference a principle and impose it on you, why don't you park for a while in Romans chapter 14 and think about disputable matters. We can still walk together and still understand that there are gray areas, disputable matters in the body of Christ. You got that? That'll save you some headache. Number 10, the influence of an apostle has commensurate with his relationship with the church. So good. The cover sheet that I gave you, turn that over. It says getting your house in order. On the backside, did you notice that I gave you, and we're gonna wrap with this, four levels of apostolic input. And as I just read these four levels, take and look at those and ask yourself, what level do we appreciate and release apostolic input in our church? So what we're doing is the first sheet you had as we began, turn that over the backside of it. Connect is an important starting point, but it's just the beginning. It's like, yes, I see who you are. I know who you are. I know you're an apostle. I'm connecting with you. But then consult, hey, can you help me? I've got this problem. Give me some input. Then the next level deeper, counsel. I really need your input and pretty much whatever you say, I'm gonna do it because I'm out of tools. And you see that unfolded their value, clarifying values, addressing personal, organizational, obstacles, apostolic oversight, team weekend, eldership, team issue, staff difficulties. Number four, and this day will come to your church, crisis. Crisis will come to your church. Guess what? It's gold when you as an eldership team can call on apostolic input. That way you can say, you know, we function day in and day out, month after month. We function as an eldership team governing the house of the church. But this is, we need to draw on the wisdom of apostolic insight. And you know what? That gives you a covering. That gives you a practical apostolic covering. You're not just making stuff up on your own. So then you get on the orbit. Remember the orbit? You get on the phone. You might draw all those apostles in at the same time or you might get on a Zoom call. So this is just a little bit about how apostles can strengthen local churches. One or two questions before we pray and dismiss on how apostles can strengthen your church. Any thoughts, comments, questions? Yes, sir. When it comes to radiant network. Great question. Pastor Lee and myself function apostolically. Let me just say this. There's a range even among these four that I just listed here. There's a range within the network of how network churches relate to us based on how much they invite us in. Why? Because every church is locally autonomously governed, period. Autonomous governance of eldership. Having said that, there are pastors within the network who are pastors with an apostolic mantle. Or they're up and coming apostles. They're maturing apostles. We see them. Guess what, we're inviting them in. And so there's an apostolic council that actually serves. We're using the duck principle. If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it's probably a duck. So I hope that answers your question. I'd be happy to unpack that further. One less, anyone else? This has been great. I know it's been like a lot of material, but I wanted to send you on your way with some good resources. If you need to contact me, feel free to do so. Father, I thank you for each person. Here, I thank you that you are the head of the church. You are the great apostle, and that you're seated at the Father's right hand. And all governance and all authority flows from you. And Lord, help us to be those who find that not only our personal lives in order, our families in order, but our churches also in godly order, fruitful to advance the kingdom of God. In Jesus' name, and everyone prayed and said, amen. Thanks for coming. God bless you.