 Hey, folks, welcome to the podcast. So we're doing a special series of podcasts, which I'm recording over Google Hangouts. So we're doing audio and video, because for some unknown reason, people don't want to come see me face to face right now. But there's always opportunity. And the cool thing is I'm able to now podcast with people from all over the world. So we're going to get an amazing, eclectic mix of people from different industries, different perspectives, to share their story and tell us their thoughts and feelings on what's going on right now. And all of that cool stuff. Hope you enjoy it. Please subscribe in all the usual places and enjoy. And we are live. Thank you everyone for joining us. Thanks also for all the comments and feedback from the previous episode. It's really, really useful. Thank you so much. Today, it's really great to be joined by Sandra Perio, who is the Strategy Director from Chail, UK. And she's into brands, consumer, retail, and really, really excited to hear all about online and offline retail and technology and all of that cool stuff. So Sandra, welcome to the podcast. Hi, hello, everyone. Thank you for having me. Pleasure, pleasure. We spoke, we were just saying all fair. We spoke just during, I think it was during the first lockdown and you said, yeah, it's all great. I love working at home. Is that still the case? No, it's not. Well, I have to say that at the beginning, I did like, because of my, the nature of my work as well as strategists, obviously, everything is brilliant. I needed space and time to think what was happening. So I think the lockdown was quite actually a nice space to reflect on what was happening. But the second lockdown now is difficult this time, I have to say. I think that now we have a clear idea of what we need to do and yeah, this lockdown is preventing us from doing it. So it's become frustrating to be at home. But I have a nice condition of work, so I don't complain. But yeah, I want to look back to work. You want to go back to the office. Do you see then, do you want, obviously, you want the office as part of your life going forward, right? Do you see yourself like, you want to go back five days a week? Or do you want to do like a combination? I don't see coming back to work five days a week. I think that in everything in life, and we will talk about offline and online retail in the next hour, but I think that on and off the office is also, they are pros and cons in both. And I think in the very near future, we will try to find the balance in between these two. So I believe that for, I believe that I will go back to work two days a week, back to the office two days a week from January. But let's see how 2021 unfold. But I believe it will be probably, if not 50-50, it will be something like that. I think I can see myself five days a week back in the office. In fact, to be honest, I'm in the office right now. We have overlocked down. We we've got a great new, we use an apartment, actually a really nice apartment in Allgate as our office. And it feels like a really nice home from home. A friend of mine is an interior designer and she shout out to Lucy. She came in and she designed our workspaces and made us some nice furniture. And so we've really like just evolved, if you like. And I like, I like to get out of the house and I like to, my commute is really cool because it's a bit of exercise. You get to listen to a podcast or do some thinking and stuff. And then you come in and you do your thing. And then you go home. And then when I get home, it feels like home, you know, because I speak to so many people and their home and their work just blends. You know, they get up and they're on the work, then they're working earlier and they're working later. Plus they get their laptop out in front of Netflix. Plus they're working at weekends. It just, it's relentless, you know, it's just, I like some routine and just a bit of separation, I think. So, and leading us on, leading us on to like commerce. And, you know, I'm in the city and the sad thing with the second lockdown is, you know, that's all the shops are shut now. You know, and obviously Christmas. I mean, if you haven't bought shares in Amazon, probably now's the time to do it, right? Yeah. You know, so I just think it's fascinating. And let's talk about like how, put on the thing, how tech's changed in the way we shop. Because I know Instagram have just started doing e-commerce. Facebook have been doing it for a while. How have you seen that all develop? Well, it's interesting that you mentioned Amazon and Christmas because this is, yeah, we are in a moment where everything is crystallizing and the importance and the the beauty of social commerce is getting more concrete. So, yeah, Instagram as a ramping up is shopping capability since a few years now. I mean, it's been around since quite a while, but now they develop Instagram checkout so you can basically do all the purchase experience in the in the in the app. So this is a this is a revolution for what you can pay. You can actually pay also in the app. Yes. So it's really, really simple. You don't have to open different platform in order to complete your purchase. So it's becoming really, really simple. The same for Facebook that they introduce a Facebook shop shopping. So which is the platform that at the end, this is a platform that will aggregate actually all the conversion from Facebook, but Instagram, WhatsApp. So they'll make it to one shopping platform. Yes. So everything is becoming more and more simpler. But why it's interesting is Instagram is becoming very critical during 2020 and during the lockdown to promote small and independent business. So it's very difficult as we know, you said that a lot of shops have been unfortunately forced to close, but also on a positive note, a lot of small and independent shop and restaurants pivoting their model very, very quickly. And they would not be able to do that without the help of tech, without the help of social platform for social commerce. So Instagram, they have obviously that this big campaign about it was a sticker promote small business stickers. And they have obviously had, yeah, so you could obviously let your network knows what is your favorite spot, but also provide some information such as I feel safe there. The owner is really nice. So I really want to support him. So you could buy gift card, you could buy takeaway. So Instagram in that sense play a great role at keeping a local business alive for a certain time. Obviously, it doesn't fix everything, but it helped some business. So what is very interesting is social commerce. They are by providing tools of e-commerce tools which are the platform and the process in order to provide a very smooth and seamless customer experience to shopper, that's one, but also by providing small businesses with data understanding of their customer. This is also helping this small business to refine their offer to pivot their model because there is a need for everyone. There is a need of extreme agility right now in commerce. And yes, big brand like Amazon, they have the capacity to be very agile, although they are also it's a monster to move. So they are limited. But small businesses, they can be very, very agile if they have the right tools and social commerce, social platform are definitely delivering that. Oh, I think it's amazing. Because also, obviously, there's none paid and paid. So if you just think about, I don't know, you have a clothes brand or something and you're taking pictures, which I guess offline, which we can speak about, and you're posting it. It's free to distribute your content. It's free to distribute to millions and millions of people. Maybe if you get the hashtags right, it goes out to a few more. The stories are great as well. So you've got those, the gifts and stuff like I'm a small business and I'm supporting the NHS and all of those things. So yeah, I think now it's to your point. If you're a small business and you've had to pivot to maybe I know you're a coffee company and you've had to pivot to a subscription model and you're taking beautiful pictures of your coffee beans or your equipment. I think now it's almost, I'd say easier, but you can get out to more people than you would have done if you were just an offline coffee shop with no Instagram, no Facebook, no Twitter, no TikTok. It's possible. Obviously there are a lot of brands and a lot of people on Instagram and I think that we get in touch following an article that I wrote a few months ago regarding Instagram and I was mentioning the fact that obviously this is a great tool, this is a great platform and it provides really what small business and brands need to reach their customers, but obviously it's crowded out there and it's so I don't know how much you can achieve with free access to these tools. You still need to be smart with the hashtag strategy obviously, but you need to be. I think a business still needs to invest a little bit in promoted posts in order to reach some customer, but in theory and if you give that tool attention and if you invest in that tool, you can obviously win big because what I find fascinating with Instagram is it's a very different type of commerce. It's a social commerce, so the lead that you are creating are stronger because socially is more emotional and there are so many things, so in shop marketing cognitive bias, so there are so many things that are triggered when you are on Instagram. Visually I mean instantly we connect the context of use instantly we can relate and also peer validation which is probably what is the key to the checkout. So yeah it's fascinating and you mentioned as well because I work for Samsung and offline retail experience mainly and I'm a peer defender of offline retail and I do love Instagram because I think Instagram bridge the gap between the online and offline because if you look at what the brand are posting, there are many posting real-life experience. They are posting photos of their shop. We talk a lot about Glossier who was an online peer player that became so that grows so fast on Instagram, but then they open a store, they open a few stores actually because the world and they were keeping posting photos of the shop, how welcoming it was, how the people were, how the product looks so you have your sales assistant showing how the product is really and it was providing the sense of reality. So Instagram even if it's online provide that offline reality feel. Yeah so obviously all the pictures are real life pictures right so to your point I don't know maybe you're a clothes brand and I get tempted by clothes all the time on Instagram because the little adverts come up in my feed and it here's like click here for the shops I click but all the pictures you're right are like a model or real life scenario wearing the clothes so it's yeah it's all the pictures are offline pictures online yeah yeah and and we saw we saw a lot of initiative during lockdown of assisted shopping so someone going through the store obviously on his own because of security measure then showing people that in Instagram live so you have live reaction and that was that was this is something that I was discussing back in last year actually but I do believe that in social platform because TikTok is actually currently launching a business offer that just launched TikTok for business in in the US and so it's TikTok for business so they they it's basically my understanding is it's quite similar to Instagram so some some businesses will be able to open a professional account on TikTok and they will be and they will be able to have so it's a part in partnership with Shopify so they will have access to some shopping capability she can do like a cool TikTok dance and then maybe like you see what the clothes brand is and then you can exactly and what is interesting is they are launching with the with a big campaign to support a black small and in small business so they have this massive challenge called the hashtag shop black and it's a challenge and it provides exposure to it's small businesses and and help and help people to to buy so um so yeah all of that happened so all of that our real life real life use of products in context and and promoted by a small business owner which became the most influential people recently the TikTok is amazing you go on there and I mean it's just the views and the videos is outstanding I think also the age range has increased over lockdown as well like it was quite a young platform I probably still is but I think I've heard that the age range has widened a lot uh over lockdown as people are like what shall I do today I'll let's do a TikTok dance and stick it on um but no just kind of I guess circling back to the e-commerce and I think for small businesses it's it is great because without without these platforms what has you have done right now I mean how would you have got your product out how would you have sold anything and and I love the I love the blender hadn't the before I spoke to you if a few weeks ago I hadn't thought really about the fact that in such great detail that all of the pictures are offline stuff you know like if you've got a beautiful shop on Savile Road doing you know high-end tailoring all of those beautiful pictures go online and then maybe people the the end sale might be online but the connection between the two is really is really important so so I know you love offline retail so um so do you think then more people now if we look if we look a little bit forward they're going to be making the purchases online but offline is important to those to those purchases um I wish I had a crystal bow to be very precise on that one but I don't um but I think that what I can see for the future of offline retail is a is a differentiation of type of store so you will have a multiplicity of small store that will extend online shopping experience so you will have click and collect you will have a pick up you will have drop you know all of this um capability so we will see that in the street we will see that small shops where you can just have a transaction quick transaction think yeah and uh but alongside that you will have also house of brands you will have with them with a bit with a theater with with uh really the the the brand it is in this ideal version of itself where you can play with product uh you can obviously um go on a discovery journey so I think that shopping is there at the moment the industry is really and rightly so for many reasons but focus on convenience and transaction yes yeah because this is what technology allows us to do and which is to make this journey so easy that obviously um you do it quick and you don't think about it too much um but there is also as I say shopping is social activity and it's entertainment for many many many shoppers so um on the Saturday this is something oh you you call your your your friends and you you meet in the store and you go on a discovery journey yeah now you you know when you go to night town for example you know 100 percent that you will see something incredible visually incredible at least and you don't even need to buy anything you just go for wow what the the world they create you know oh yeah no I actually love that I used to work in fashion actually and um I know that's my excuse for saying that we're about to say that I really love going shopping um I uh I used to love on the weekend going to Liberties and then going to Selfridges just having a little walk around check it out see what's going on try a few clothes I might be might be convinced to buy something but um but you're right like I always used to like go into town for the day and you check out a few shops you'd grab a drink have a have a pint down the pub or something you know like it's a whole it's a really like nice nice day out right on the weekend like so many people obviously used to do that um so I think that that will still happen because so obviously we will have I will not say that um there will not be more store closure there will be because the the the entire brand they need to rethink their retail architecture yeah yeah because for some it's expensive right like if you you know it's not it's not cheap to how I mean the prices have probably gone down now but you know if you're a smaller brand it's expensive to have a shop in a in a in an oxy street or Registry or something like that and you know if you're making the sales online and you're investing the money in paid advertising on instagram which really works then maybe maybe you won't you know maybe to your point it's going to be the big brands that are going to have like really really cool like you know come to the come to the apple store um maybe they don't ever make any sales there maybe actually I think even an apple you go in and then they're like okay pay on your phone you know like I think that's what I'm sure they I think that's what happens right I think that's what happens I bought one of the stylists from there recently and the guy was like oh pay on your pay on your phone or something so so I think it's it's going to be a really interesting like intersection between like technology offline online like it'll be interesting to see oh yeah absolutely I think that the stores will become a statement I mean it's a statement because everyone knows that it's expensive uh is not necessarily a center of profit if you if you consider old KPIs I think that the difficulty everyone had at the moment is uh you know online offline it's different lines different silo so and it's difficult to understand what exactly has triggered which channel really triggered the purchase so I think there is a need for more fluidity internally from brands agency and all that in order to consider a big the journey has a hole definitely and so or change the KPIs because the the the store the the value of the store the KPIs has to have to change but it will become a statement so only big brands will afford probably to have big stores that you know a big temple almost brand temple and but also what is interesting what we learn for as well is that you will have a lot of retail space empty and obviously you can convert that into home or flat but you can also convert that into pop-up space for retail for online player yeah yeah yeah I think the way forward for brand that cannot afford a permanent store would be um would be residents collaboration with established big brands and so maybe department store can find their way here um again and um and pop-up store so um we're depending on the demand so it could be completely data driven we'd like to think that but um based on demand based on season based on events cultural events you can switch the store and and allow an online brand to have a physical present because I think to do commerce and to grow you need that physical presence you need that physical experience 100% yeah and also for other brands like and if you if again if you go to like high-end tailoring or um yeah could you could show stuff like that like you want the experience I want to go into my tailor I want him or her to measure me up I want to feel the fabric you know that whole experience of getting a suit made or or even if it's buying like some something tech related like going to apple stores pretty cool it's just good to hang out a little bit and see what's going on and feel it and and also the great thing about cities like London Paris you know all of these places it's so buzzy you know when people are shopping and like you know they're fun they're having a chat with their friends they're grabbing a coffee you know it beats the whole experience you go for it you go for a little shop you get tired you go to your coffee shop you have a drink and something to eat you go for next thing um I think the pop-up idea is great I've also heard um some of the prestigious um right um streets in London like Savile Row and some of the others um I think they're giving away space like you know like the rates have come right right down you know because they want they want people in there and so to your point it could be a pop-up um and there's a lot of a lot of businesses go under unfortunately they'll there'll be more space available and so if you're it's maybe you started off online you'll end I think it'd be a real real mix and I mean yeah I really hope these places get back up and running I went to Otter Street the other day and there's like no one you know no one at all I think I think the the shopping will change fundamentally and and I and everyone was saying that he has a the 2020 has just accelerated the change the change was coming anyway so it just really accelerates all of these uh transition for retail and so we will find uh I have no doubt that there will be a model that will be found uh will be fine sorry um where uh offline uh space have their role to play and it's clear and where online has a role to play and it's clear because online shopping is also fantastic I mean he has been life-saving for during lockdown I find it amazing that my mother-in-law who never never shop online now she's she's set up she's uh she's enjoying it she's independent again because for for a large tank of population they they felt not they they were not obviously nobody was really free during lockdown but uh when you don't um when you are not used to use a technology to um to to buy what you need on a daily basis you feel really really frustrated yeah and a lot of yeah definitely and a lot of a lot of people of either that age range or who aren't used to using tech because some people don't trust it I can't put my credit card details in how can I but this pandemic I mean you know the lockdowns I mean we weren't really locked down right we had Netflix we had entertainment on demand Amazon were delivering a card over delivering everyone everyone was delivering right so you could literally buy anything I'd love to know what the stats are about the increase in sales online versus I mean I'd love to see the data when it comes out a lot of people have migrated online but to the limit of the online capacity so off-liners still have a great role to play and you're right because I yeah it's interesting that much more is offline still even now you know like I used to go to still do like there's a really great local like fruit and vegetable shop near me in north London so over the lockdown I like you need you walk up you get your stuff we were doing a cardio as well so it's always been a bit of a mix um yeah like it's also it was the only thing you could do during lockdown it was it was such a pleasure oh I'm going to the butcher or I'm going to the fishmonger I was so happy so um it was if you obviously if you felt safe to do so um it was it was quite a pleasure to go shopping I love it I actually probably got like for the food stuff I was like I really I want to get great quality food so I like I would queue up you'd queue up for the butcher right if you know they've got great meat or or you want to get great cheese or a lot of it was interesting like I was you kind of you'd want to spend a little bit more on good quality food if you if you could but then again if you can't get out and you're on yourself isolating or you know you're vulnerable or whatever then it's cool like someone was delivering food you know yeah and I think I think they're also giving priority to people who were vulnerable or self isolating and stuff like that so yeah I mean fortunately for everyone around in in in this country and others you know you you'd always have stuff available it wasn't you wouldn't get you're not going to go without no but I think that's what was interesting for me is it was demonstrating that you need both you need online and you need also offline because because you need that capacity to go the convenience store is so important so and I think a lot of people have come to realizing that so now sometimes when you have the choice of because a convenience store is traditionally a little bit more expensive but then you realize how important what the role in your in your local community so then you're all right so I will I will spend a bit more or as you just mentioned your the daily or the the premium shops then you come to the realization that these are important and you don't want them to disappear so I think that I hope that when everything settled everyone will find his place his new place definitely with his role reinforced by 2020 experience yeah I was speaking to the the convenience store so the one that does the nice fruit and vegetables up in Tofinal Park near where I live he said he's this business has ever been and then the guy next door the butcher I I I often see the guy and I'm like hey how's it all going and there's like middle of lockdown he's like oh my god like we're so busy I'm like trying to get more meat for my supplier like I didn't want to do I'm working like every hour I'm staying open later so there's some real success stories even over this time from some you know some offline retail like these types of these types of shops and yeah I'm you know I'm convinced that there's a deaf there's a role to play for both offline and online and it interchanges you know I might see something on Instagram and I'm like oh I'm going to go down to the shop check it out and maybe I'll buy it there or I see it offline and I buy it online so I think you know it's just it's just with the pandemic everything's on steroids at the moment you know all of these trends are just like it's crazy right it's like you just it's very interesting yeah yeah I'd love to see like if we speak again in it in like six months or 12 months like what what it ends up looking like like what is the new you know the new rhythm to yeah to it I I hope that um what I can see come here what I what what we talk about is all of that has replaced the the human even if we were talking a lot about technology and technology will remove the hassle of retail they will change transform completely operating model in retail and it will change a lot of things but you will also have the consequence of refocusing on the human so the the person so you will go to the store to see someone because everything else you can do online so when you go to the store you are really really with the you will have the desire to meet people look like people or think like people or have an experience with a product a guided experience with the product so and the social commerce as we talked earlier so where people were very keen to look at videos stories of people shopping or people demonstrating there the product that had them go through the the go through the lockdown so or the gym kit or the the food processor kit all of that um but all of that as a one commonality is is the human was at the heart of all of it so and I hope that um after years of a conversation about robot technology and how all of that will destroy or will change the retail and destroy the faith of retail I think what we can see and I and I will definitely work toward that goal is to show that all this technology as only one benefit is just to replace human in that experience and and make the experience even better so making the share of the experience and the center of the of the experience and not the fulfillment of little tasks that can be easily replaced by technology definitely definitely because you know we like um you know this like our senses you know this like sensory branding and so you know you go to a shop and you get the smell and the feel and the look and then the shop assistant dressed in let's say the clothes of the of the brand with perfume on and you know like you just get that whole like sensory overload that really like gets you in do you know I mean or like it's amazing right smell is so important I mean visual and so important for me when I enter a store I instantly you are you are immersed in the in the in the brand in the brand story but also you can then check you are building memories you are checking whether or not the brand is telling you the truth online and when you enter a store the way the store is layout the way the care that has been given to the product presentation to the sales person to the smell to all this little detail all of that is the bank of memories then then the brand can activate online because these are deep emotion that you can play you can you can use in the future so so important so important I've been loyal to the brands that I used to buy before lockdown so there's a certain number of brands that I really like to buy for clothes and because um I don't I just buy into the whole I used to buy them offline I like the experience the smell of the shops the people were nice to me I felt the product I've worn it before so everything I've bought now actually while whatever lockdown is just stuff I bought before because I just I'm in you know I'm like I'm sold if I know where I'm going like I love I love the t-shirts I buy um I didn't know if I'm uh I haven't bought a brand that I haven't bought so I haven't bought a brand over lockdown that I haven't already bought you know I haven't been sold on only only online like I'm sold offline and on do you know what I mean offline and online I think I saw some piece of research I think lockdown did drive discovery a lot of people have tried new products um but most of them out of necessity because they were like short age or or or they could get delivered or something like that so I think it has tried the discovery which is quite great for challenger brand or no for me I think it's for grocery I definitely try new brand some of them I will keep some of them not but but for a big ticket item or a home item definitely rely I rely like you I rely on my past experience and and I go where I know the quality is meeting my expectation yeah it's true I just really careful because it's so easy to spend more money online right you just press buy yeah and it gets you by the meantime you can it's so I am amazed how easy it is to send back um product now so easy they can and collect it from your house you don't pay anything right so but it's but for the retailer that's tough I mean you you make a sale but I don't know what you can return 30 days some are offering more maybe 60 days so you don't really know how many sales you've made until like let's say 60 days has passed from that item being sent out but then suddenly you've got the cost of sending it out so either you do that yourself or you're using Amazon as a as a distribution service which costs um but then also you've got the return cost too because someone has to pay for that so it's interesting what you know once it all comes out in the wash um you know how profitable it is um I yeah I imagine that I really imagine that more people don't return either for because they're lazy for a lot of people they forget as well sometimes yeah yeah that's just on a previous point you have a IKEA who has a 365 days return policy really I would be very interesting interested to know how they have a how they work internally there that's interesting yeah I mean maybe to your point people don't can't be bothered I mean but yeah discussing around I don't have a you know solid piece of research yeah maybe I don't know it's interesting it'd be interesting to see what the stats are um I think it depends on the value of the product obviously I work for Samsung so it's high ticket it has the high value product so I think people care and they do return if they're not satisfied but in the fashion industry and probably also groceries if yeah it doesn't work if it doesn't work the answer a lot of people are just keeping the item but for fashion industry I don't have the data exactly but I would expect it's still worth it it's still I think it's quite high my cousin's a fashion designer he's got a great brand called James Lakeland and he was saying that the returns are more online I might be misquoting him more online than offline because I think what happens is people they order a few yeah like I'm not quite sure what size let me let me order three of them oh I'm not sure what color either I'll order a couple of sizes of a few different colors so maybe they make a sale so you make like the sale but then like you get a bunch returns because it's too small too big or the wrong color yeah yeah I would be this is a good point I think I need to do some research on that because what was interesting in lockdown as well is the the delay to get a refund was extended as well because obviously they were they were really really busy they had to face an increased amount of order and but also return so then to get a refund you know you could wait a month more over a month so obviously when you do have that habit to order a multiple size or multiple product knowing that at the end you will just keep one or two you cannot really do that many many times during the month because otherwise you would have a lot of money waiting for you know a refund money waiting oh that's true that is very true actually that is very true I think they they're watering themselves at some point but yeah it's definitely clear I can see my sister is like that I mean I can relate to that story a lot oh it's funny well it's Sandra thank you so much for joining me I love love the conversation and it's going to be super interesting to see how how all of this lands but I certainly I certainly agree like online and offline you know go hand in hand I think nowadays so definitely cool well enjoy say enjoy your second lockdown but I hope we're out of this soon and I hope you get back to the office soon and thank you so much for joining me thank you very much have a great lockdown thank you see